In full: Interview with Dominic Raab's ex-permanent secretary

Were you surprised by the outcome of the Dominic Rob toll investigation, where two allegations of intimidation against him were confirmed? that person crosses the line and clearly, and in at least one case, Mr. Rob crossed the line, so given the nature of how you saw him operate, think that it would escalate if you like what was difficult, maybe in the past, when, when were you working with him? in 20 19 to 20 19 to 20 that it would become something a little bit more, that was what you felt like if they didn't keep it under control, well, one aspect was talking to him about his impact, the impact of his behavior on people. . around him and I did, they weren't easy conversations, but I wanted him to see that the way he treated the people around him was affecting the results, that was affecting his productivity, his delivery and he resisted that, he is well and he constantly resisted, so you brought that up. her behavior towards him before it got to the harassment stage, um, but he didn't accept what you would say: constructive criticism or correct advice and Dominic Raab is a lawyer, so everything was subject to quite a forensic analysis, so it was started a general conversation.

It was not a successful conversation, so to be clear, Simon, you are saying that more genius officials told you. I find it very difficult to work for Mr. Rob. This has already happened. Everything that happened, please can you talk to him about it, but no. You don't mention me and you tried to convey that and he didn't accept that that is correct. Were you surprised that he didn't accept that or were you shocked that they did because you think he was in control of his behavior? I think he could. has changed his behavior and he decided not to change his behavior he liked working with him that's my answer he no he doesn't have to answer what I mean he doesn't want to answer whether a

permanent

secretary

likes working for a minister is beside the point because our job is to help our political boss deliver and Simon, what you're talking about, you try to talk to him informally, reflecting some of your team's concerns, you say he deflected complaints because he didn't have names and specific examples that you've explained why?

What do you look back on now and regret not escalating it yourself before it got worse before it got to a stage when you read the report did you think? Oh maybe I should have done more um I did it reflexively because I never use the word harassment in my conversations with him but at the time I felt like we were trying to avoid that level given what happened in my year with him you know , I feel uncomfortable, but I still understand what I did to you. I think you should now apologize for his behavior, yes you do and well you just said he didn't do it.

Yeah, okay, now he hasn't apologized, and in fact, there's been a lot of discussion over the weekend about what the case means for the Civilian's relationship. The services and government ministers, and Dominic Rob, have made their views very clear with a series of opinion pieces he has written for newspapers, given a couple of

interview

s and written a very clear resignation letter in which he You say that the result is the precedent of a president so dangerous for good government and encourages spurious complaints against other ministers, what do you think that I do not agree with all that?

I think anyone who reads the report will see that the threshold is high and therefore most people who have a bad day don't do it. I have nothing to worry about because if you have a bad day you acknowledge it, you apologize to the person you interacted badly with and you move on and as far as I can see there won't be a stampede of complaints like that, so uh, we'll see, but I think he is wrong about that and I think he is wrong about the public service. I think the civil service is defined by its impartiality, it is defined by how hard it works for government ministers and in another part of his reaction Mr Rob pays tribute to many, in fact most civil servants for the what work.

Rory Stewart, whose political career led him to work as a civil servant and then as such, as a State for International Development, said in recent days on his podcast that he cited moments frequently. where civil servants were deliberately blocking him, I mean, this is part of Rob's criticism, wasn't it that he felt there was an activism within the Civil Service that was trying to block him and then trying to push him out and there's another, you know? Minister Rory Stewart, who says the same thing. I think ministers are frustrated by aspects of the civil service. They are frustrated because they don't get the points right away.

They get frustrated when action doesn't happen as quickly as they want. You don't need to intimidate, humiliate or threaten things to change the system. The system that I think, as a whole, has achieved for the UK, the cars that go ahead of the Civil Service law. Lake warned today that the Prime Minister needs to speak out against the torrent of invective against the civil service I agree, I think the Prime Minister, who is also civil service minister, knows the civil service, he is surrounded by civil servants in the number 10 and the cabinet office, you know his spirit, you know his quality, so I hope that the Prime Minister and other ministers will publicly acknowledge that what I saw in your letter of acceptance from Mr Robb was immense sympathy for Mr Robb when he attacked the public administration.

I think I would distinguish clearly if I were Prime Minister between personal sympathy with a colleague who I had worked well with I liked and uh systemic sympathy I think the system needs closer attention than just taking Don Robb's word for it, let me put it another way, You are worried that if the ministers and the Prime Minister The minister does not come out to defend the public service, saying that the public service will be unfair, quite vilified for all this, that is a possibility, because one aspect is the silence of public officials , that there can be a debate about them without any involvement in the civil service, so I think it is an unfair debate and that is another reason for me, as a retired civil servant, to speak out because I have worked for the civil service for 38 years.

I think the characterization given by Mr. Rob is totally wrong.