Chris Voss on Why You Want a Seller/Buyer to Say “NO”

this is the BiggerPockets podcast show 683 people feel trapped they feel like they are being led into a trap worry is a negative emotion they automatically abandon them if they say no and they don't feel trapped then they won't they will become dumber in the moment , they will be more likely to listen to you, they will be more likely to consider options, they will be more likely to think about next steps, it's the same rule of neuroscience. I keep you with a negative thought, the chances of us being able to collaborate effectively are much greater because none of us are getting dumber, what is happening?

Everyone, this is David Green, your host of the BiggerPockets real estate podcast, the best, the highest ranked, and the worst real estate podcast. podcast in the world Today I'm joined by my co-host Rob Abasolo, who I love very much and a fantastic guest on today's show. We have none other than world-renowned expert negotiator Chris Voss, author of Never Split the Difference and other upcoming books. to talk to us about how to negotiate real estate specifically Chris has recently been introduced to the world of real estate and the negotiation it's in and shares tons of amazing tips on how to do a better job negotiating houses.

want

and if you're an agent or a loan officer, how can you do a better job negotiating for your clients Rob, what were some of your favorite parts of today's show?

I honestly felt like you were in your element on this one. They tell you all these anecdotes about your career in real estate and your brokerage and then he said yes and that's how the negotiation should have been and then he said you say yes and then in this situation and I was just like why would I talk ? Why would I speak? I'm watching a masterclass between two Class Acts on the art of negotiation so that we get into things like tactical empathy and really understand people where they are at and sort of escalate the situation and we even talk about an agreement that I'm working right now and hopefully get the best financial deal for the

seller

that you know, that I've done so far.

TBD on that, but yeah, we get into some really interesting stuff here, yeah, you use some of the tactics that we're talking about on the show to get to the point where you're really close to contracting on that house and everyone, this is what they must understand that we have as

buyer

s. More negotiating leverage than we have had in my entire real estate investing career outside of 2010. Sellers need to sell homes, there is more supply than demand, the tables have finally turned, and as a

buyer

, if you have strong negotiation skills . It will take you further than any other time you have ever seen, so we bring you an expert negotiator to teach you how to negotiate better because you are worth more money now than ever before, so Rob, I would love for you to get that deal and I remember you called me and We were talking about it and you said, how can I get the person to do this? and the advice I gave you was to explain and articulate it a lot. better for Chris than for me, but it was along the same lines, if you have to reestablish communication, you have to get her to an emotional state that is different, don't mention

seller

financing right now, get to this point and then do it and sound. like you're really close, so I'm really glad to hear that's the case.

Today's quick tip considers adopting tactical empathy. How can you understand where someone is coming from without conceding your own position? This is what Wizards do, that negotiation is a way of recognizing the other person's position making them lower their guard making them listen to what you have to say without giving up anything of value to you very valuable uh tactic to understand a big strategy to use you're going to love it so much listen to what we have to say today and I don't think there's a better person on the planet to bring it in than Chris Voss Rob, anything you

want

to say before we bring Chris in, nobody, let's get into this, Chris Voss, welcome back to the BiggerPockets Podcast where we originally had you on episode 260 and we have you back now that you've been kind enough to give us your time on the road.

I think you're in Montreal right now getting ready to give the keynote. speech at a big conference is that, that's the case, I'm in Montreal, it's good to see that I was. I was joking with my girlfriend earlier because I spent a lot of time in Las Vegas, where I live these days and I also just got back from the Middle East, I said, you know, it's crazy that in the fall the trees here are different colors, what do they do? colors? Well, the red and the orange and the green. I'm not used to everything being brown in the desert.

I think it's funny that you're in Vegas. I imagine you as that Celine Dion character that people travel all over the world to hear and you just stay there and they learn from you how to negotiate and then they don't. I don't have to travel that much, but something tells me that's probably not it. the case. Why did you move to Las Vegas? Let's go to Las Vegas. Celine Dion as if Sting were in Las Vegas. Compare me to Sting. You know he made them like watching England to see that. I just don't know enough about Las Vegas.

Celine Dion was the first one I heard about. I'm cool, she doesn't have to travel, she just lives there, but yeah, you're definitely a lot more Elvis-like there. come on, you are the Elvis of negotiation, in fact, I don't think there is anyone in the space, if people think about negotiation, they immediately think of Chris Foss, you have that level of notoriety when it comes to this, so your first book It was never divided. The Difference is probably the most cited book in the field of negotiation. He has done an incredible job building a reputation and, frankly, helping millions of people around the world understand how to trade better.

It has a fascinating history. I'll summarize some of it because we want to get as much information as possible about the podcast. You started out as a police officer in New York City. You work some of the hardest beats ever. You were sharpened and forged in the fires. from a very difficult time to be a police officer in New York when crime was incredibly high. uh, they transferred you at a slightly slower pace. I didn't like it that much. I started to realize that I have abilities that you haven't mentioned. this, but I imagine there's a part of you that says, look, I can't grow without better competition for lack of a better word.

I need a more challenging environment, so you ended up being a federal, you met some people who introduced you to federal officials. you went to, I think, it was Quantico and you got your FBI training, you joined the academy there and you came out and, because you were a police officer, you were delegated certain tasks that needed a little bit of law enforcement experience and eventually you went, you were trying to get into the exchange program and ended up in the trading program. Are there any important key pieces I missed in that backstory? No, uh, that's, uh, you hit the high points pretty well, you know, you didn't say that.

There's nothing about me spending time as a country and western singer but I think it was just a dream so I never did it actually well you're in Vegas so Never Say Never there's always a chance listen if want. to revive your career right here on the BiggerPockets podcast and break out a tune, we would appreciate it yes, yes, you're saying I could sing often, is what you meant when you said break up with them, yes, exactly, one of your strategies. Do you have what I think you described as the late night DJ voice? It's one of the ways you lull the opponent into lowering his defenses and so I can see that working for you in the country is not there. a country guy right now who talks when he sings I wish I could remember his name Rob won't know, you know what I'm talking about Chris Hunt, something will hunt, he'll be singing and he just starts talking in the middle of a song. it's very strange, like you can expand on that style, so never splitting the difference completely changed the game when it comes to negotiating, you explain the psychology behind what makes people do what they do.

What I find absolutely fascinating about you is that you're not just saying well here's your tactical response when they do a you do B you really dig into what makes people make decisions and how you can influence what people do one of my favorite books it's called speech anything written by Oren Clough are you familiar? That one I'm familiar with and haven't read it yet. I intend to read it. Yes, you'll probably love it. It's a similar thing when you're trying to get someone to understand your point. I'm sure. If you read it you would say this is elementary, this is exactly what I have been doing and maybe you are the first person very much like Gracie who taught the world Jiu Jitsu, in some way you unlock the key to what makes people they decide how they make decisions and then they taught the masses that this is how you can copy that and in the real estate space this is incredibly important, deals can be made or lost simply because of negotiating power so I want to ask you what It kind of sparked his interest in taking his skill set particularly to the world of real estate, which is the new book that is giving him good results as people are applying negotiation concepts across the board. a lack of negotiation guidance for the real estate industry, whether you are buying and selling from a commercial residential agent, there is a lack of guidance there and it is still human nature and people applied it over and over again successfully in that area, so Steve Shull, who was training residential real estate agents, approached me. in Los Angeles it still is and Steve said, look, this is exactly what we need to train these people for the real estate profession and I started collaborating with Steve.

Steve is an interesting cat. I knew Steve for over a year before I found out about him. Normally, someone played in the NFL. You know, within the first five minutes, about three years later, I found out he was a Super Bowl captain. Usually those guys are waving their trophies because that's all they have to talk about Steve. I had involved his life so much beyond that that it made sense when I found out that about him, but I thought he's an interesting guy. He's not an ego-driven insecure guy, he just likes helping people, so collaborating with him has been a blast.

I really like the guy, so he has a background in real estate, yeah, well, when he left, when he left, when he got out of the NFL, he went to Wall Street to make a lot of money on Wall Street and then someone ran into him . I had the opportunity to be a residential real estate agent and Steve is Steve, give me a system. I will outwork everyone else and recover. I made a lot of money in real estate and then decided I loved helping people. better, having been a football player and having coaches that trained him to be a better human being, he wanted to do the same with other people and then he crossed over and never split the difference and changed the focus on everything, so I have to imagine it with never split the difference, there are probably people who reach out quite frequently to talk about some of the crazy deals they've successfully executed, well, just because you know, using a lot of the philosophies and a lot of your tactics, and that's what we got you Many people reach out with similar success stories in that sense, one way or another, someone shares a story of a life-changing deal with me or my team almost every week.

I mean, we heard from people all the time during this deal. it's going to change my life whether it's an employee negotiating with his employer or whoever or like we have a new guy on the team who is his hostage experienced negotiated now teaching how to apply in real life who is learning the skills in real life and he was, yeah, I was on the phone with him today talking to me about how he got upgraded to a suite in a hotel, it's kind of like our standard, our standard routine, you know, getting a pre-suite upgrade, if the have. and the crazy thing about this is the way we do it, the hotel employee doesn't feel like he was taken advantage of, in fact, they join you, he says every time he passes the counter, the guy at the front desk calls, hey, How are you?

Join us. You stay, you know, they just join us, so even in the little things it starts to remove the friction from your life and suddenly life is a lot more fun, yeah, do you feel that way? Do you feel like you now negotiate like or? Is it just second nature, like something you live by and therefore always feels very fluid? How often in your mind do you think I'm about to flip the trading switch? Does that ever happen? Well, you know? We forget that what we feel is ourselves or our natural abilities, we learn as if everything is learned, so you know what my motivation is.

I like to connect and I and I like to look better as a result of the connection, so yeah. Negotiating all the time, but I don't negotiate against people. I negotiate with people or just meI connect with them, like, what if they don't have a suite available in a hotel? That is one of the key issues for us. sweet update like they can't give you what they don't have. I still want to connect with the person behind the counter so that maybe I need something the next day, uh, and that's what Don was telling me that he came back to the counter the next day because he ran out of coffee in his room.

Any young man who gave you the free upgrade comes out with a bunch of coffee makers like he just wanted to. He almost took out the box. to him because he connected with her so we just want to connect with people and then as a result good things tend to happen so in this book obviously in the world of real estate the tension seems a little bit high. feel like overall the way the process is presented when making an offer and negotiating an offer and trying to get into escrow feels like there's a little bit of a disconnect between all the parties that are involved in this because to me I feel like I go to real estate very often and I immediately feel that when I send an offer I am definitely not connected to the other party and there are tensions that always feel high as soon as we press the send button on that type of thing. things, yeah, well, unfortunately, it applies in a lot of cases, agents are basically trying to keep the buyer and seller separate because they're afraid of emotions getting out of control and stuff, but what that does is it creates even more uncertainty, You know?

They don't have the opportunity to really know each other's human beings, so people are left in the dark for a long time. I tried out for the FBI Hostage Rescue Team, the FBI's version of the Navy Seals, they wanted to emphasize this. They maxed us out psychologically, not just physically, but psychologically even more, so what they did was keep us in the dark about what we were going to do, they took us on a run and the unknown is the stressor, like you can't stand anything but. you will know when it will end or if you know it will end if you know, but when the definition of traumatic stress is overwhelming and unrelenting, meaning you don't know when it will end, you are held back.

In the dark, the unknown is the stressor, so what does that have to do with real estate? Well, the agents keep people apart and, just like you said, now they throw you on a bid into the unknown, you're not connected to the people on the other side, they're not connected to you, you have nothing but unknown things, so which is a defensive move on the part of the agent, but it increases stress for everyone involved, which is not good for the process, because if the offer is rejected or there are inspection problems, you have created a process where stress increases every step of the way and then a seven million dollar deal is going to be ruined in a fifteen hundred dollar inspection because people were kept in the dark, people were kept apart and stress levels were kept high and people got fed up. and thinks I'm not going to do this anymore.

You know, that's probably one of the biggest complaints my real estate team gets from our clients: an offer is written and the agent comes out and gathers all the information he can. the other side and it's like you said both sides are trying to keep their cards as close to the chest as possible because when you're afraid or you're not safe, that's your natural response is to just shut down so they don't. they don't know what to say they're going to try to say as little as possible so the agent isn't communicating with their client what's going on they know in their own head what they think should happen but well there's no news so they just don't know.

They approach and the buyers are there just marinating in worry and stress, they're just cooking from the inside out and knowing what's going on and in that state it's almost like you feel like the world is against you. You are not assuming that the sellers will accept my offer and it is a great offer. You're thinking the worst of everything now that you're angry at your agent and, like you said, when you finally get a counteroffer that may be a It's a very solid thing that you're receiving it from this lens of distrust and anger and stress and this whole negative state in the one you encounter and the instinctive response is like screw them.

I'm not going to give them a cent. I won't do it. I'm not going to know my offer for 400 or whatever the case may be, what your experience is in seeing that element of human nature as it plays out and how you try to combat it well, that plays out all the time and where it ends up. What's happening is one of the big problems, especially for the residential real estate market or any real estate market. You will never recommend your agent as if the process is so painful that the only way to avoid it is with that person. never go through that with that person again and officers are not taught the right way to do it.

I mean, you can't really blame them for doing it the wrong way, you can only blame them if they haven't known what. the right way is and the right way in many cases is counterintuitive or the right way is not well modeled for them and you just hit one of the points uh that you know you're in the dark because age is not communicating because agents communicate. when there is good news or bad news or when there is bad news, you don't know, so what are you going to hear from your agent? so you're sitting there in the dark waiting to see now we handle this I handle this personally someone finally showed me how to handle myself in a kidnapping scenario and I didn't know the right way until someone finally told me the right way to do it because we're in a kind of kidnapping in the Philippines and I have my hostage negotiators in contact with the families of kidnapping victims all over the United States because you never know who the bad guy is going to call.

The bad guys call the family members. to get money, so you have to get hostage negotiators next to each family member, however, there are a lot of them wherever they are and the family doesn't like any of my members and there is a guy from the State Department at who loves the cool Tech student name. quirky guy, sweet guy and Ted finally calls me on the phone and says that families never know when they're going to hear from the hostage negotiators, that's why they don't like you, they like me because they always know when they're going to hear from me, I'm going to make an appointment for a call and if I have good news or bad news, I call at the appointment and if I have nothing to say, I call and say, I just let them know that there is nothing new and they love me, so we change this with families, we always call on time, no matter what, if you have nothing to say, say, I have nothing to say, I didn't realize this applied to the real estate market until I was at a conference in Australia and there is a woman who runs an operation in Australia that has a benchmark rate that is through the roof, her benchmark rate beats the benchmark rate of everyone else in the Australian industry, no one is even close and she makes a presentation and says that Let's call all our clients. at scheduled times, they never wonder when they are going to hear from us, we always call them at the agreed time and if we have nothing to tell them, we call them on the phone and say: "Hello, nothing new, no new offer, no one has passed by the House". nothing has changed in the market, there is nothing new and they love us for it and I thought how obvious it could be but until someone pointed it out to me I didn't know it was a way of communicating so one of the ways we work. with the clients we serve, we will have my agents ask them how you like to be contacted, do you prefer phone calls, emails, text messages and if there is, if there is no news, do you want me to tell you? there is no news you just want me to call you if you have to make a decision or want to know everything and I would say that most people say I don't want to know everything they want the power to decide if they want to put their comments or their contributions or if they just go to let the agent make the decision, but not everyone is the same, in your experience, what are the different types of people and what tips do you have on how to communicate with different personalities? guys, you know, and there's also the question of whether or not they know the best way to communicate with them, and until they've communicated properly, they probably don't.

I mean, it's what Jobs used to say. You don't design products based on what people want, you design them based on what they don't yet know they want. I mean, it's an anticipation. He trusted his instincts and his understanding of what people wanted. He didn't ask and you know. yes yes yes yes yes no I know there is a better way to communicate with me then I will reflect on my past story of how it happened to me in the past what I liked what I didn't like and I will give you an answer based on what I have been told. done in the past so you may not know what the best way is, like scheduled communication, very few people really understand how much of a difference that makes until they've been through it, so the first problem is you know how they know for sure and then the other thing, you, as a real estate professional, you have data and when you don't realize it, you have it to say "okay", so there's the "you know", which says The clone.

Hey, listen, nothing new, well the fact that there is nothing new is information that tells you that you have information about the speed of the market, the way the market moves, has the market changed, has there been changes in interest rates? Have there been any? There has been some kind of change in the market that should have had an impact and didn't or is having an impact, but it remains to be seen, so just because there is no news doesn't necessarily mean there is no impressive data, That's honestly it. My main frustration with real estate agents is that I think there is a bit of I don't know.

I feel like the real estate agents I've worked with always feel guilty about not having new news and so I don't want to text me and get excited, you know, just to let them know. I might not listen for a day or two and I don't want to be high maintenance so I'm like I want to ask but I know what the answer is going to be but I felt like when I heard you say that I really appreciate when I get a text from a real estate agent saying, "Hey, there's no new usage or whatever you can report if it's not news, good or bad, but having a scheduled check-in at least doesn't leave me in the dark for as long, It's a very small thing, um, but like I said before, when you're under stress, if you know when the next point of contact is, you can deal with the stress, you know, I'm training a family through kidnapping, if I say, hey , I'll call you when there's good news, they're going to go crazy, I mean, they're going to lose their minds if I tell them hey, you're going to hear from me in an hour, even if they're family members at risk of death right now.

They know I can't. I just have to wait an hour I'll hear from them or tomorrow at 10 I just have to wait until then their people's ability to deal with stress and they, unless they're taught, They just don't know how stressful the unknown is. Yeah, and you mentioned earlier in the show that it's a very, very powerful idea, what makes the client upset is that they don't know when the phone call is coming and it made me think about when I was in academia. we were all tasered and I'm seeing grown men, strong men, SWAT officers like the people that led you at the academy, these are your heroes, like literally making unflattering sounds, begging for it to stop, so what They said is if you can say the word stop, we'll turn it off if it's too true, but they hooked us up so one probe was on our shoulder and the other was on our opposite foot, so you're literally getting your whole body to become the circuit other than maybe. your neck and up is a lot worse than if they shot you with a Taser and you got two of them in the chest or something, so I'm sitting there and I'm like, look, this is my first job.

I'm going to make a good impression. I won't make a sound and I'll do that whole five second trip and they hit me and maybe half a second later I lost track of time like the pain was so mine. I simply lost my ability to estimate time. I didn't know how long it was going to last and it was that feeling that was the worst, like I had thoughts going through my head like I think the Taser broke and they can't. stop it, they're behind me like they hit it like, oh we're going to fry them, like it won't turn off because those five seconds seemed so long and if there had been a timer I could have looked or something.

I've absolutely made the experience possible, like I could get through this if I could look at that stopwatch, but when you don't know when it's going to end, it's very discouraging, yeah, a thousand percent, you captured it a thousand percent, because when you're in the middle of stress you lose track of time and it's a lot harder, yeah, if there was a person there like, hey man, hang on, you have three more seconds, you have two more seconds, it's a reliefimmediate and I want to say that it is a powerful relief. The thing to think about when you're in a stressful situation is giving someone sort of GPS coordinates of where they are and where the next break is going to be, that's one of the things I've heard Jocko talk about, uh uh. tips to get through bud training for else to say focus on your next break don't think about how much pain you are thinking about two hours they have to give us a break because they are legally required to feed us if I can get through two hours and I could make it to that break, I can do it and then once that's done you'll start your next moment of hell and have to think about the same question for four hours.

You can only do this for four hours. I'm going to take a break. They literally describe that division of time as a way to get through stressful situations, so I wanted to ask you about one of the things that I feel like you're one of the forward-thinking thought leaders on this topic of tactical empathy. of recognizing where someone is without conceding anything real, practical in nature, can you describe what tactical empathy is and how it applies to negotiation? Yeah, okay, let's break it down into two components, so empathy, empathy is showing and understanding the other side's perspective. it is not sympathy it is not agreeing it is not compassion a friend of mine Steven Tyler would say that empathy about the transmission of information compassion is a reaction to that transmission so the first problem is that most people in current terminology equate empathy with sympathy or agreement, it's not like that it was never its origins if you Tracy uh etymology of the word the origin of the word was never meant to be an agreement it's meant to be understanding now it's also a little bit more put on the place of the other person, that is necessary but inadequate, you throw yourself a receipt from their perspective necessary but inadequate to make it adequate you have to articulate what you see what you believe they see now what you see but we believe they see that way that empathy is the articulation of the other person's perspective it's not fair it's not accurate it's not inaccurate you might you might think I'm a horrible person.

I don't think he's a horrible person. an empathetic statement would be for me to say that you feel like I'm a horrible person and that's it, just stop there because that's articulating your perspective. I don't agree I don't disagree I don't say but I'm a good guy but I'm moral but I have integrity the word but if it came out of your lips you're without empathy okay so Tactical you know we dropped the word there first of all to disabuse it of being sympathy and then Tactical, what tactics are we employing well, the tactics that neuroscience tells us, the way the brain works.

Neuroscience tells us that the brain is largely negative, number one, not sunshine and roses survival mode, is negative. we wake up in survival mode, every human being, if left alone, is in largely negative survival mode, roughly as a layman's estimate that I'm comfortable with negative 75, my neuroscience brothers and sisters would say that okay, that's probably accurate, just why you say it. it's wrong, well I don't care if I didn't explain the mechanism correctly, it's still pretty accurate, especially in layman's terms, now what's next about neuroscience? Tell us about the negativity, the best movies, tell me, don't deny it, don't explain it, just call.

That's why if you think I'm an idiot, my best move to defuse you thinking I'm an idiot, I could spend hours trying to charm you and that may or may not work eventually, it probably will work, it's highly inefficient or I could say look, you think I'm an asshole and shut up and the amount of negativity that could take me four or five hours to make go away, I could probably make that go away in a space that it took me to make That statement and I have it in many cases because if I need you to listen to me, I say, Look, you think I'm selfish, you think I'm an idiot, you think I have no respect for your position at all and in your head you're going to say wow, that's frank.

I'm interested to hear what you have to say next and that's where the tax bar comes from, because our psychological wiring is very important to us. that we are understood that we will spend hours and hours and hours trying to explain where we are until we feel heard and it's like shortening this whole process by giving it to you from the beginning, that's exactly it. I mean that's a great analogy, people will go on and on until that they feel that they have been understood well, that's why people go on for hours, that's exactly right, I think there are certain people that I will study and listen to.

I talk because I like the way they articulate Henry Gracie is one of them, the guy is so captivating he could say the alphabet and I could listen to him for hours saying the alphabet huh, Ben Shapiro is a guy who probably just won't lose an entire argument. life and one of the things I notice that he will do is that instead of arguing with someone, if he makes a point true, he will immediately say: yes, you are right, the study shows that that is the case, I agree with you on that and it is so disarming with the other side that they are like prepared for this big fight and you immediately give it to them, they almost don't know what to do and it causes this now that you gave them I who dictates the law of reciprocity.

I feel almost obligated to give you something and now you're steering the conversation to a place where it tactically makes more sense. Do I have a decent understanding of what you're describing here? Yes, very I mean in certain aspects, I think there are additional mechanisms and it is reciprocity or when a person is hurt or satisfied and therefore they do not have to, they no longer have to receive concessions from you. I have noticed that it works very well when I was at the stage of my business where I was the agent negotiating with the other agent.

Well, then I am the buyer and I am negotiating with the listing agent. It's incredibly easy, it's like a flammable relationship that goes from when we get along until immediately the defenses are raised both sides are incredibly sensitive that the other side is going to scam them and they are very defensive towards their client and my agents ruin more agreements of those who help because of their egos, they can't handle it and I realize what you're saying would work wonders, when we would go back and say, hey, we need a 25,000 credit because of the things on the inspection report that we really don't need. a credit of twenty-five thousand dollars, okay, I want my client to give it to me.

They would immediately jump in and say no, I'm not doing it. End of story, we're not even going to talk, which usually means they don't know how to do it. I kind of navigate the conversation and if I say something like well, here's the deal, take it or leave it, I'm almost pushing them towards divorce, they'll say, leave it if I tell you that you think we're here trying to scam you. your client and you don't want to go back and look like a fool and say that you got a deal. I can understand that what would have to be different so that you wouldn't think he was trying to scam you, you could tell him that he was trying to close the deal and he started the conversation where almost every time they would come back and say, well, it's not going to cost you to do it. 25 000.

You're probably right, we could probably find a person to do it for 18 000. maybe 15 000. This is about how long it will take to do it and the fact that they could find another house doesn't need any of this work, so That's what we need to do now. The question is whether it makes more sense. If your seller sells to us three weeks after escrow or you think you'll get more money if you put your house back on the market and find another buyer, interest rates have gone up, it's a little more complicated, we're having a conversation in the one that they are really starting to see where we are coming from and I can say things like what could we change about this so that you feel like it is better for your client, but it never happened if I didn't start with exactly what you said, you think I'm trying to scam you, TRUE?

Or sometimes they would Google me and see that I'm a big shot and get more defensive, oh, this guy. he thinks he's coming to push us and I'd be like hey man, I'd actually rather not spend a lot of time on this. I'm trying to resolve this as quickly as possible. I know it seems like we're trying to scam you, what do we have to do here right away? The whole story would change. Where did you first learn that? Did you have an experience where that moment was similar for you as it was for me when I was negotiating with other agents?

Well, I think you know, uh, it's a buildup and it probably was for you. I mean, you're seeing bits and pieces here, you struggle with problems. I mean, I first started seeing it when I was volunteering at a suicide hotline and it was like, the act of understanding and articulating the understanding of where the other party was coming from quickly put people in different decision-making modes, I mean. , no matter what you're talking about, if you're on a suicide hotline, if you're at a sales agency. call if you're in a negotiation it's three phases and you know how quickly we can move through the three phases which is building a relationship, narrowing down an issue, making a decision on a hotline, we'll call you, you know the last part , challenge, call it, act. sales, um, you call it, you know what you call the action, they're going to buy, they're going to close deals.

Have we reached a point where we are going to make a deal? They are sort of three phases. and as you struggle through the phases where you start seeing someone else, speed up because they removed the friction, like you don't always speed up by going faster, sometimes you speed up by removing the emotional friction, maybe that's your tone of voice, maybe Once you found out you could get to your point faster you mean look, what do we have to do to fix this? You could, that's a great question, but at some point you felt like saying I'm sure it looks like we're trying to scam you, what are you doing?

We had to do something to fix this and, bang, they got to work solving the problem because you deactivated that first piece of empathy now, or you saw someone do that, or you just out of desperation decided on your own to try it one day. and anyone like holy cow that worked, so I think we have these moments of insight that arise as a result of an accumulation of experience and demonstration in front of us. I'm curious if you agree with this. I have developed a sort of new perspective on the concept of Truth mainly after listening to different media outlets that can take the same story and describe it so radically differently that almost no human being knows the truth.

They have a perspective of what we call truth that cannot be handled. The truth is yes, that is good many times that limits our perspective because if it hurts us emotionally we don't want to see it, that literally makes our heart dictate what our head can see, so you take a problem that happens on the news and uh in the world and the news reports on it and this side shows you this element and this side shows you this element and we are arguing because what we are seeing looks very different from different sides, but the problem is not that one of the parties is necessarily lying?

It's that they are only focusing on the element of the problem that they emotionally agree with and can handle. They don't want to look at the part they can't handle. The truth. or in Psychology we call this confirmation bias, right, this part supports what they believe, this part causes cognitive dissonance. I don't like how that feels and when that clicked, I was able to tell someone that you're right, that's true, that makes For me, I can see that without admitting that I was wrong, that's okay, because what I'm seeing is so valid as what you are seeing, but they are different, the thing is that one is a piece that has to be something like that.

Play with what you're describing so people can use the strategies you're describing here. Yeah, you know, how does it affect someone emotionally? How does it affect your identity? How does it affect your perception of profit or loss? comparisons, you know, especially in real estate, I mean, gosh, you know someone with a three-bedroom house is determined to get the price of a four-bedroom house because his brother-in-law sold a four-bedroom house for the same amount of money hates his brother. I mean, you know, there are crazy things like that, so yeah, you know what's going on in someone's head and most people don't even know what's holding them back, which is the best thing, like you pointed out.

As we've seen before, when you're articulating someone else's point of view, people are held back primarily by two things: things they're hiding, emotional issues they're hiding, or emotional issues they've become blind to, as if they were experiencing an emotion, but You are blind to it, as if you have clarity of thought when you just point out these things, you seem to know, you seem to feel that I am being greedy here and that clarity will help you level out.and sees things with less negative bias, so Chris, that was another thing I've recently come to terms with.

I've struggled with this for a while and finally submitted and Tapped Out people's feelings dictate what their brain thinks. We all see ourselves as logical and rational creatures, but it's very difficult to get a person to see your point of view if it hurts you emotionally or doesn't make you feel good or creates anger, it's like our emotions are the rudder of the ship. and we think we're running it and we're really not. Was there an element of that in the human personality that you came to grasp because you're dealing with people in a hostage situation, the tensions are so high that you almost have to recognize the emotional reality of that person in 99% of the country, no?

You will get them to understand your point of view, you are not going to come. Someone there and says look man, I've been working for 16 hours. I really need something to eat in the shower. I don't want to listen to you right now. Can we just cut to the chase like that's not an option when you're around? In that scenario, do you agree that you have to start with the heart and feelings before you can get to the head one thousand percent? I mean, emotion drives the decision, just our emotions, there's some data, there's a TED talk that I would like to quote regularly from Sean Acker, uh, Happiness Advantage.

I think it's the name of the Ted Talk. He says you are 31 smarter in a positive frame of mind. Harvard psychologists. I am satisfied that it is a decent source. What does that mean? It means you're dumber when you're in a bad mood, so you can't make good decisions when you're angry or unhappy because you're dumber, you're just by definition if You're going to buy that statistic of your 31 smarter with a mood. positive and there is a good amount of other separate data to support that when you are in a bad mood you are angry, disappointed, frustrated or worried.

You are by definition dumber yeah best to calm down before making the several hundred thousand dollar investments probably um so Chris I know David alluded to this before with all this not at all true I know . I believe in starting with a no or a calibrated question. I want to understand why that is if you're going to come to an agreement. My thought here is that you simply want to know how someone reacts, but what is the intention in starting with? a calibrated question every time you enter a real estate negotiation, well, human beings have been conditioned since they were old enough to make sentences that when they say the word no, it makes them feel safe and secure, and it doesn't.

I know it doesn't even matter what they say, although they like it too. I've heard people tell me about their counterparts and they say you know what they are in no way, no matter what we say, they say no and my answer. has been we'll change your questions like you can't be that simple unfortunately it is and if you just go from do you agree don't you agree to do you agree? people change is this is a good idea is this a bad idea are Are you in favor? Are you against it? Is it a ridiculous idea like that little change?

There's something about saying no that automatically makes people feel safe from the start and I've yet to see a scenario on Earth as to whether that wasn't the case. um and even the stereotyped cultures, the cultures that are stereotyped because they never say no, they are the Arabs and the Asians and they are human beings and I say to them all the time: are you against this proposition? No, I am not against that proposition. I mean, I make them say no all the time because they're human beings, human beings everywhere feel safer when they say no, so the ridiculous answer is to change your questions so that you get what you want through a no. instead of a yes, it's a little bit mind-blowing right there, honestly, I think it's like it's not like the other way around, okay, now I'll be fine, every question I write down, I'll write it down and I'll flip the script a bit. a little bit, so that makes sense, so effectively they just because they feel safer when you put it this way now, in a way, lays the groundwork to start having the conversation towards that shared end goal, well, yeah They feel safer, so they feel. less anxiety or less worry because as soon as I start trying to get you to say yes, you start worrying about where I'm going, you know, would you like to make more money?

Okay, that feels like cheating, you know? traps So many traps have been set with a yes so it is a stimulus response we are sometimes Pavlov's dog and we have been trapped by a yes every time someone tries to get us to say yes it is a trap so the negative emotions I was talking about before Because people feel trapped, they feel like they are being led into a trap, worry is a negative emotion, they automatically become dumber, if they say no and don't feel trapped, then they won't become dumber. in the moment they will be more likely to listen to you, they will be more likely to consider options, they will be more likely to think about next steps.

It's the same rule of neuroscience. Let me keep you. When faced with a negative thought, the chances that we can collaborate effectively are much greater because neither of us understands Dumber, so, for example, Chris, instead of saying, would you like to make money?, it might be safer to say : Would you like to know how I do it? I'll protect you from losing money, is it a form of note or is it that they're still saying yes, I want to know and that would count as a no as a no, but hey, you're close, I mean you got it right. in the second part, which is really strong, is loss prevention and I don't know the source of the statistic, but someone told me several years ago that 70 percent of purchasing decisions are made to avoid losses versus gains achieved, I mean, people are more likely to take risks to avoid a loss than to win a game.

The second part of that statement was about avoiding loss, meaning people want to know, people want to know how to protect themselves, now this is particularly important at the beginning of a relationship where there is no established trust, this doesn't mean you have to communicate this way all the time. Do you know anyone, no, no, I mean, on my team, you know, we wear black. The Swan method between us all the time and we ask each other no, we call that an undirected question, this is a ridiculous idea, are you against us? We do those things all the time, but yeah, every once in a while I say, you know, I got that right. someone on my team because our trust factor is so high that we don't worry about automatically asking questions now if someone calls me on a phone on my team that I trust and asks me a question to which the answer is yes immediately.

Bat immediately I'm going to go okay, where is this going? Yeah, you're trying to get ahead of where they are and you're not like you said the primary emotional condition of a human being is defensive, I have to stay alive. your brain is constantly filtering information to describe to you how this is going to hurt you how this is going to kill you how it's going to waste your time how it's going to consume your resources so when you're trying to figure out where it's going it's not like oh this is so exciting, what is Santa Claus going to bring me for Christmas this year, how is this person going to hurt me, what are they trying to take from me, what are they trying to get me to lower my defenses and when you are talking to someone and they are in that state of? where is this going?

I've noticed that they're always trying to like it when you're trying to lead someone down that path and you're building a case with logic and they don't. Trust you, it feels like they're dragging their feet every turn and what you're saying is don't try to drag them, go right back to where they are, acknowledge what they're feeling, turn it off. the table, let them make sure they feel heard before you move forward, yes, yes, and if you have to move someone down a path, make sure you stop and know that they should have the freedom to stop the process whenever they want.

What I want is when people think that the process is out of control and this is, you know, this momentum is just unstoppable, that's when they really stop listening, so you know there are times when we have to share points with each other. part doing small doses, this is all incredibly interesting, honestly, listening to it I feel like you both are on the same wavelength of a year and I'm here thinking about all the negotiations and offers that went wrong. I called David like two weeks ago and I said, right man, this is what they said, they said this and what do you think should go and he says no, no, and really David's advice is always very common, this is how you need to address it, that's probably how they feel if You can accept that and really lean into that they'll be a lot less defensive, so I really feel like David.

I never followed up on this because there were tensions. I went in with a lower offer. I'm not happy about it and they responded with an offer that wasn't my favorite either, but after we had our conversation I thought, well, you know, I can totally see that they were probably offended by my offer, what if we just waited, did this and this and this and then now we're in a whole new negotiation outside of what the original offer was to get into seller financing and try to lock it in, yeah, reset everything completely and honestly, where a lot of it started to accelerate a lot is I stopped. of wanting to be so buddy buddy with the realtor because it's like there's always both parties conspiring with their realtor about how they can fight each other, but I was like I told my realtor, look, I think than your mission. is to go meet the other realtor where they are, you know, chat with them like I want all of you to really connect more than we do because I feel like right now tensions are so high that everyone is trying to defend their clients and what I really want is, hey, we're friends, how can we make this deal work?

So yes, now you may very well get one. I hope I don't want to say it too loud. just because I don't want to jinx it but I'm hoping to get a 1.8 million dollar property under contract with very little to no money down like a seller financing deal and it's all because it's like we rethought how we wanted to approach the negotiation it's nice , yes, good stuff, yes, give people a chance to work it out with you, yes, it's not natural to think that way, you tend to think like it's just a number, it's yes or no, are you accepting my offer or not? ? no one makes decisions if they think you're trying to scam them just on principle, their gut response is going to be no versus if it's received from a different lens, you know, one of the last things I want to ask you, Chris.

I wrote a book for Bigger Pockets for real estate agents called skill and one of the concepts in the book is what I call Triangle Theory, so the idea behind it is something we teach all of our agents is that I never want to be in conflict. With the person I'm talking to, if it's my own client, it's the other agent, when we have a disagreement, let's say he thinks his house is worth 700,000. I think it's worth 600,000. I can use superior experience number data to defeat him. and get you to agree to include your house in 600, but if I win that battle I will lose the war because there will be resentment, our relationship is hurt.

You're looking for any little mistakes you think I make so you can understand me well. back because I left you with your defenses up, so what we teach or what I teach is to create a third party or concept or whatever the real enemy is, align yourself with the person you're talking to against that enemy, so in This case would bring up a list of houses that have sold in the neighborhood and a list of market data and say look, I agree that your house is worth seven hundred thousand dollars. I would love to sell it for that price, but here's what the data says.

I need you to show me a house on this list that costs seven hundred thousand dollars and goes into effect at b or c. The stupid market has turned on us here and it's screwing us over and we have to work together to overcome what happened in the market now you're not mad at me you're mad at this concept right and I'll do the same when I talk to my agent or when talking, sorry, to a client. I'll make the agent the person we're aligned with, sometimes I go to the buyer's agent when I'm the listing agent and say, hey man, I don't know what to tell you, like my seller is stubborn and doesn't want to. to bend, can you give me something so I feel like it's not just like getting into the shaft right now?

What if you guys came back and phrased it this way and then when I go to talk to my client, I'm doing the same thing? Kind of like yes, this salesperson doesn't want to budge at all, we have to find some way to make him understand why your offer is good, is there any similarity to the things you're teaching with that concept? Doesn't that have any relation to the stuff in your books? Well I like the idea of ​​keeping youout of a position of conflict with who your partners are and one thing I have always believed is that adversaries are the situation like anyone you.

When I'm talking to you, you're both facing different aspects of the same problem that you're trying to solve collaboratively, so the core of that that I love is the emotional intelligence of not being in conflict with the person you're talking to. . There are some? Is there a different tactical approach that you might recommend real estate agents take that differs from what I call Triangle Theory, well, you know, I like the idea of ​​keeping it when you talked about the market, like listening the listings, here is a market, here is the problem, like the market. It will always be what the situation is, that will always be the problem now.

It depends on how much you change around us against MDS against them. Things are very powerful. You know, I'd have to think about that a little bit. more to think about where I come from, to be something flexible and fungible, I can't think of the appropriate term, you know who the adversary is. I like it, I like that the adversary continues to be the situation that it has been for a long time. opposite to the person you are trying to get on your side, it is very important that we, like in Rob's situation, needed his real estate agent to go with the other real estate agent to form an alliance and convert Rob on the problem or the seller on the problem so that the two of them could have some kind of camaraderie there and then when they contacted their respective customers, since this is not the enemy that we have to defeat, this is a problem that we can resolve at the moment.

The seller thinks this house I think in Rob's situation, the guy wanted about 2 million and Rob offered 1.4 and the guy came back at 1.8, so the two million guy was insulted because Rob offered 1.4. Rob was insulted that he only reduced it to 1.8 when the house has been on the market for six months or something, it's not worth that much money and they're both looking at that scenario like screw this guy like they basically need to get out of that mood and like you're saying Rob, you reset it, so now you move on. I would just encourage everyone in the real estate space to be honest with themselves and say that your emotions play a huge role in the decisions you make.

I thought, Chris, that was a fantastic statistic. You're 31 dumber when you're in a bad mood and it makes sense because if you're in a bad mood, you hold your cards to your chest and you're very tense and you say, Nobody's going to take what I have. like if you're in law enforcement you know what it's like when there's a threat you have tunnel vision you can't see anything but that threat you don't know what's going on outside it could be so easy I mean how many do you sometimes see people? in a foot chase running all over the place and then the suspect made a big circle and entered and got into his car.

Taking out Drive is the most humiliating thing that has ever happened and when you're on the outside looking in, you're like, oh, that's exactly what's going to happen, if you're really scared, what we say is stay away, like when you get closer to what's coming to you. You worry, you become stupid, you can't see the bigger picture, you have to zoom out to be able to see the whole thing. Is there any last advice I can give before we let you out of here? for people who want to become better negotiators they want to experience tactical empathy they want to start this journey of understanding because how to be better communicators where they can start the first impression is the second most important impression the last impression is the most important impression you know, in interactions , in particular, there is something at stake when there is conflict, the last impression that people tend to leave are cheap shots, you know, I would remind you of that.

You know, you can't sell this house, you can leave it on the market. I mean, the last impression is a lasting impression. You really give a lot of encouragement for future conversations to make sure all your interactions end positively and whatever you want. They say try to start a conversation positively, it's probably worth repeating at the end just to make sure the lasting impression is a positive one. So your new book, can you tell us what it's called, where people can find it, and where they can find more information about it? you, the new book, are the full fee agent, like how many real estate agents don't get paid in full just because they don't ask, so how do you ask?

How is that established from the beginning? How is it fulfilled? do it in a way that earns the trust of the client, as if we have literally had agents who have adopted this whole methodology work half as hard and make the same amount of money because what being a full fee agent means is not wasting your time on long-term elaborate ideas that you don't make money with because if you're a full-fee agent you tend to close and you tend to repeat clients, it will be available on Amazon from now on. November 15 is the planned release date.

The best way to know for sure how to get it is to subscribe to the Black Swan newsletter because we will be publishing the announcement in the coming weeks. Visit the website blackswoneltd.com. At the top right of the home page click to access the newsletter slash blog review our articles and also sign up to receive the weekly announcement. A new negotiation article is published every Tuesday morning. Information on how to buy the book will be published in the also the newsletter Black Swan ltd.com is that website, the best way for people to follow you or contact you.

It's yes, b l a c k s w a n ltd.com, what does LTD mean for limited? It is a legal term. Okay, okay, I like Rob. questions before we let Chris get out of here and go back to his conference in Montreal no, no, I just have one last question or request for the audience and that is if you enjoyed today's episode and would you like to hear from us and from you. If you want our content to appear in podcast algorithms, then I ask that you leave us a review on the Apple Podcasts website or any podcast streaming platform you use.

Chris I want to thank you personally. I really appreciate you being here. I know this is probably not the case. your first choice for how to spend your time while you're traveling. I know we also had to reschedule because I was out of town, so I want to personally thank you for being flexible with that and giving our audience a lot of your wisdom when it came at an inconvenient time for you, so thank you, You are a class act. Any last words before we let you out of here. No, thanks for inviting me. I really enjoyed the conversation.

Okay, thank you. Very much Chris, this is David Green to Rob, I'm just listening and wondering if ABA just registers.