The Atheist Experience 27.01 with Forrest Valkai and Dave Warnock

foreigner, we want the truth, so watch Truth Wanted LIVE on Fridays at 7 p.m. m. Central, visit tiny.cc slash yttw and call the program at 512-991-9242 or connect to the program online at tiny.cc slash call TW ins hello hello and welcome to The Atheist Experience today is January 8 almost July today It's January 8th and the year of Our Lord 2023 I'm your host forest balkai and today I'm joined by the brilliantly eloquent and impishly handsome Dave Warnock Dave, how are you? today, oh UW, you're like that with words, it's good to see you for us, it's good to see you too, man.

I always love doing shows with you when they told me that you and I were going to be a couple. I was beyond excited. right away, so I'm really excited about this program, seriously, before we start, although I have to let everyone know that The Atheist Experience is a product of the Austin Atheist Community, which is a 501c3 non-profit organization dedicated to the promotion of atheism critical thinking secular humanism and the separation of religion and government and with that we opened the lines we had a little survey in the chat here where we wanted to know what kind of things do you think questions that we get all the time and that we really enjoy receiving uh what we're asking is why is the god of the Bible good um is it real evolution is the apocalypse coming soon and we've had some people you know tagging in there saying they know, of course, that the god of the Bible is good and so Of course evolution isn't real and of course the apocalypse was coming and they seemed confident that they can defend these positions in the poll, that's the number and the number is right too. down here at the bottom of the screen, so if you believe those things are real or if you have other religious claims, you want to tell us what you believe and why, then call and talk to Dave and I, we're very friendly. of time and we would love to talk to you about what you believe and why you believe it, but just to start, we have our first person on the line today: Greg, called from Texas pronouns, is he, uh, Greg?

He is a theist who wants to know what the purpose of proving the existence of God is. What are you trying to do with that information? Greg, how are you today? Pretty good, pretty good, yourself, hey, Greg, hey, man, that was the message I got. Here on, like the notes on the call, uh, it was just what is the purpose of demonstrating God's help and what are you trying to do with that information. Is that a fair summary of what you're trying to say or would you mind? to expound a little on what exactly you're calling, well that's a fair summary, but I can't expound on it to grow the conversation a little bit, yeah, so now I'm a believer in God.

I have grown up exposed to Christian doctrine and lean towards Christianity, but maybe not as much as a devout Christian, but I do believe in the existence of God, at least in the possibility of that being the case, and in the past I have . I've seen this show and I know how it leans towards the Christian Bible and you know, using that as a defense, but I was always curious to say hypothetically that I could prove that God exists, what would that be, what would you do with that information? Well, I mean, what is the purpose of proving or disproving God?

Yes, so I can say, first of all, the purpose because I think it will be faster. The thing to understand is that you know that the purpose is the same as proving or disproving anything else. I want to know if what I believe is true or not. That matters to me so you know that I study science for a living and my job. It's going to learn what the truth is about the universe because that's important, it helps me make better decisions, it helps me, you know, move forward into the future in a more informed and rational way, and you know, in a well-structured way, It's good to do it if I know about the existence of a God, whether it's true or not, it will be exactly the same, it will make me a more logical and reasoned person living in this universe, if that kind of thing exists, I want to know it, um. and now, as to what I would do with that information if you could prove to me that this God existed.

Without a doubt, you know, really show it to me absolutely. I can't, I can't say you know there's no such thing. Things have changed more. I'd be the first to admit it because, again, that's my job: to learn shocking things about the universe and if they could prove to me that there is a God, I'd be right here on that same platform saying yes. there is absolutely one God and also there is no reason to worship that God and I would say the same things that I say about how monstrous and awful I think God is because you know our position as

atheist

s is we just don't.

I don't believe there is a God, but for me specifically I go beyond that, if there is a God, what kind of God is it and I like to look at the world around us, look at the entire universe that we live in, at whatever God we live in. run this place is evil, so if you could prove to me that God exists, my platform would be largely exactly the same just with the addition that I would no longer say that there is no reason to believe in it anymore, you know, yeah, yeah, and that and that makes sense. and I totally get it and what I couldn't prove is what God's reasoning would be, you know, so that's where my faith comes from.

So based on and it's not exclusive to my curiosity about science and how the world works still be there and investigate how things work well and depending on what it is because you have to point out because you can't try to spend your time on everything scientific, right? TRUE? You know, like television. I do not understand exactly. the operation of a television, but I know another person who understands it enough that I have to plug it in and press the power button to turn it on properly and I accept it at the level of my current knowledge, as far as God is concerned.

I believe in its possibilities because it's a reasonable, you know, between if there's no God and if there is a God, it's a, in my opinion, it's a reasonable thought to leave that open because there's a lot of signs to show about intelligent design, right? and no matter how you justify how that design was created, whether it's from Evolution or from the development of this, that still exists, it doesn't matter if there's a God involved or not, let me, let me jump, yeah, go ahead, uh, just do it. I'm going to do. Do you want to finish your point before I respond a bit?

Do you take one more step? Okay, yeah, so with that, now that I know that God exists, then you evaluate what the reason would be and it leans in. towards how you know, as far as you look, if you look at most religions, it is how you guide your life correctly and how you want to direct your life and improve your life in a correct way and granted since God created us for people who believe that God is the creator. God created us, he instilled in us a moral compass of some kind, and rather, if that is biased by your interactions in the world and your environment, your personal opinions on things, that compass is there, believing in God is not necessary to you. being a good person not wanting to kill because within your environment you know that obviously you don't want to kill people because you don't want to be killed, true, some people do it anyway, but that's still based on a moral structure very well, if you have that basis, there are some things you've said so far that I have problems with, but I want to let Dave go first, okay, yeah, you're like, Greg, let me try to focus on a couple of things. here because you are jumping to a lot of yes sir different things to say that you believe in a god first you have to define what or who that God is there are so many varied definitions of a god past and present and so when I stayed from the beginning that you believe in a God that you are a believer you have to identify which God and what the attributes of said God are now based on what you have said so far I think you are referring to the god of the Bible to the Christian God and can you correct me if that is not what you are referring to? you think, um to come back, okay, oh, it's not.

Sorry, you don't believe in the Christian God, the god of the Bible, oh no. I do, but that's not what it's geared toward. I mean, I do. I use the Bible and Christianity as a guide or reference for reading and that's yes, I have a reference, but not like the spoken word, okay? Well, the point is you, when we talk about God, that word of God we have to define which God we are talking about because it can mean so many things to so many people, so we have to narrow down what the focus is of your definition of God said and you you're referring to the goddess defined in the Bible, so as far as the above goes, it's problematic because you also linked that belief in God to a moral code that helps us live our lives as moral people, um, I have The problem with that is that if the god of the Bible is not moral, allows and regulates slavery, approves of genocide, he had to instruct his people to put blood on their doorposts to know which innocent babies to kill and which ones to kill. . overlook what Easter is, so if you believe in the god of that God of the Bible, then I believe what the forest said and I agree that if you proved the existence of that God, I would grant it to you, OK?

I have proven that this God is real. I still wouldn't worship that God, even though I did for 37 years. I wouldn't worship that God because he is an immoral monster and is petty, jealous and cruel, so I don't agree with the whole concept. that this God is the one who gives us our moral code and helps us know how to live our lives and then I guess the other question I would ask you when you say you believe in this God and it's you. Are you asking what is the purpose of proving the existence of a God like this?

Is it important to you or not that what you believe is really true? Do you want to be sure that this God is real or are you content to believe in him? he whether it is really true or not, whether it can be proven or not, or whether its existence can be proven, is it so important to you or not, the importance of the existence of God in itself, yes, yes, are you okay with Just believe it or do you want to? Do you want it to be absolutely true? Oh no, I want it to be true, but, but we're, you're going out of your way to defend him.

I'm not trying to defend my choice or the Christian um, the Christian God who mentions slavery and everything in the Bible that's not the part that doesn't change the fact that the mere existence of God and him instilling that Moral code has nothing to do with the Bible, it is when we were created, but how is it defined? what code is it if you don't do it if you don't use the Bible as a guide what do you have to have some reference point for this moral code if you are saying that this God of yours is the one who gives What is your reference point?

Define that, oh, whatever, with whatever, whatever I'm studying, I lean towards Christianity and I get what I can from the Bible, but I don't hold on as much, that's what I test with my I want a relationship with God, I'm not a Christian, it's necessarily a Christian relationship, in general, it's okay for me to say this, it opens me up, I ask you a slightly different question and that will connect to this because I like something else that you said. A minute ago you said that you believe that believing in God is you know. I agreed with what you said, for a second you said you either know God exists or you don't know for sure.

I can delve into that and then you said there's an obvious design. around us that when we look at the things around us there is evidence of a similar design all around us and therefore believing in this God is like a reasonable conclusion to come to based on whether I'm summarizing it pretty well or I am misrepresenting. Yes, it is the reason to follow that path because if you do not believe in God, if you choose not to believe in God, you are simply cut off, cutting off any type of growth or you look at that route not completely, but in the kingdom if you want to improve yourself or put yourself in contact with whatever they are on Discovery, right, it's to find out what kind of God there is, you have to have at least that, that's different from what I thought you were saying because, like me, you don't You don't choose not to believe in a God, that's the difference, are you saying we're obligated to do it or that we

atheist

s have simply chosen not to believe in a God, that's just a choice we've made, that's not accurate.

Disbelief in a God is the conclusion we come to based on a lack of evidence, it's not a choice we've made, so if we're presented with enough evidence like Forrest said, I'll accept it and say, "Okay, you got me." ". Now there is enough evidence for me to adhere to some kind of belief in this God that you have presented, but until now and until now at 5:45 p.m. EST, I don't see that evidence, so I'm still coming to the conclusion that he's not there, it's not a choice I've made, it's the conclusion I've come to and I don't believe that choice has some bearing on the type of moral code in which you develop.

I remember you said that there is evidence of design all around us and that you can believe in evolution or in God and one of those things has evidence. I remember you mentioned something like what exactly did you say please. refresh me then because I don't want to say something you did, I said that, I remember you said something about the dichotomy between believing in natural processes or the Divine, you know, design is the opposite, no, no, no, it's not exclusive, it's not one or the other, it is neither of the two or them. regarding evolution then it doesn't refute, yes evolution doesn't refute God and that's okay so my question is largely the same, thatcan be expressed slightly differently, okay, okay, and that's you know if we have evidence that you know the natural processes that do things. like we, the worlds, the galaxies and everything else, you know, we have very clear and well understood processes, you know, the Stella nuclear synthesis, which produces all the atoms that make up the planets, we know how the planets are formed, We have a good grasp of understanding. where life comes from and we definitely have a great understanding of how life evolves, we have all these things under control, so why do you need to add this extra supernatural statement of oh yeah and there's also this God who did these things when you didn't?

I don't have any evidence of those things. The reason I asked this is because you know there's a famous old story that may be apocryphal, but like it's this old idea that Napoleon meets with Pierre Simone LaPlace, the great physicist, and says, "You know." . I see you've drawn a map, you know the rotations of the heavens, and you've told us all this stuff about physics and chemistry and math, but you never mentioned it to God and LaPlace said he didn't need that hypothesis. Works. It's fine without that and that's where I am, is that we have a very good understanding of all these things, why add the magic too?

Because it is necessary? Well, it's a new point when you're when you're. putting it to the extent that it is like the science of evolution of evolution in creation because even within Godless Evolution they continue to continually investigate and modify their theories as they go, so, certainly, yes, as far as the difference of creation, it has to be it has to do with how you want to live your life and how you relate to your community and I'm not saying that you can't do it without the moment that one of the things that um uh sorry, I think it was Forrest who was mentioning as far as it is okay, what will I do with what it is?

Once you know there is a God once you know there is a God. Okay, is it worth worshiping? Okay, so you hold on as far as the Christian doctrine, that's slavery, that's immoral. If you can't use that as a compass, that just turns it off, well there are other possibilities. Now that's where I say you have to define who that God is before you're willing to consider the possibility and continue living your life there. he's a God and then he asks what that God is and yeah, right, that's the other way around, can you do that with anything else?

You don't start with the assumption that there must be a God and now I want to know what this God is like you don't start with that assumption you don't you're just starting you're starting on third base and acting like you hit a triple that's not how it works don't start saying oh come on, I'm going to believe there must be a God, now let me get busy figuring out who this God is and what he is like. Why start with the assumption that there must be a God because there is no evidence around us? present that there is no evidence that forces us to think that the world works as it would without a God, so why start with the premise and assumption that there is a God and then try to define that God that is backwards, Greg?

Do you see that strange? Would you ever say I'm going to go ahead and believe in Santa Claus and then we'll find out what kind of person Santa is later or would you rather need the evidence first before continuing with that belief? Well, let me start. Out with that, you believe in saying, you hear there is a Santa, the evidence that you saw that Santa is the Christmas present, you find out they are your parents and that ends well, there is no progress benefit in believing in God, I mean , believe. inside in Santa Claus outside of course there is when you believe in Santa Claus it means you're a good girl or boy and that means you're not cold it makes you a better person it gives you a moral compass thank you oh there you go, there was a brief twist there So why don't you believe in Santa Claus and then just work out the details later?

I believed in the believing Santa Claus and then you work out the details because his evidence led to that, well, yes there is a Santa Claus, so there is no proof that there is no Santa Claus, but it showed that the Santa Claus whose Santa Claus was not is who he was, well there are like 2,000 different versions of Christianity from different people who disagree about who God is. is and what kind of person God is like is it's the same thing who God is well let me ask you this doesn't change who Santa Claus is what evidence have you seen Greg that would make you believe more strongly in a God what evidence can you point to right now of your life?

Only the following is the philosophy of God. You don't know the evidence, not the evidence. That is what evidence you have seen that would make you continue believing in this God that you started with the assumption. that he is there, so what evidence have you seen so far in your life? My

experience

in My Day, My Life, following that path, discovering who that God is, that's still the path I'm going on, so what have you found, what have I found, I mean. is if I list the

experience

s I have of my ex that came to that conclusion that God's possibilities are all the same as everyone else who believes in existence versus people who claim they don't know until but you keep talking in Las Vegas what experiences what concrete things have you experienced that make you believe in this God you are still speaking in very vague terms because everything is everything I say it would not be enough because if I had the answer I would have already conveyed it before even calling, so I What I'm saying is the point, although I ask you again.

Would you use this same line of thinking for anything else if I told you I believed in any other God or if I believed in Santa Claus or if I believed in the role of the magic elf in my closet or anything else and I didn't know exactly what you see, Dave knows Roland, I know Roland, yes I gave you the exact same speech. that you are giving us today I had these experiences and the more I look for them the more I find these things and I have this moral code written in my heart and there is a benefit to believing and if I said all the same thing would you believe in anything other than your God?

Would you believe in Santa? Would you believe in other gods? Would you believe in the role of the magical Elf or anything else? If it said exactly what you're saying here, I'd accept it. in position if you are defining God with those specificities, that is what I would be investigating. I am not taking you to the heart of where in Christianity Jesus died and rose again. I'm not taking it to that heart. Putting up a defense about that, I can't prove that that doesn't change the fact that the premise of a God is there and if you cut that out or if you wait and see here, you can miss that. improving yourself or getting it is what I want to know what you just said if you don't believe this, if you don't believe this, you will miss out on this opportunity to grow and be a better person all the time.

Exactly what you just said applies to the magical Elf that lives in my closet. Does it matter to you? It matters. It matters to me. This is to the extent that you show me a computer and I use the basics of it. And not. I don't learn anything I think the computer is there I believe this, but someone says you can do all this programming and stuff, uh, take your faith and I don't have any sense in doing it, it won't be until I make actions to a light bulb, okay? ? Could you tell me the science of the light bulb.

I don't need to know the science of the light bulb, but the god of the light bulb, in the simplest and darkest way, the god of the light bulb is. Hey, I could use this light. light bulb to go up to the attic and find out that you know you know that leaky air duct or, wow, you keep saying what I think, what you keep saying is that the only reason you have to believe in a God is because you don't have You have to think about it too much and eventually you can feel better or do something good, yes, when there are other selfless philosophies, yes, there are countless other philosophies and beliefs and lack of faith and, like countless other ideologies and doctrines that also provide benefit so much to personal and community level, many of you know people like Dave and I, we do not believe in this God, we do not follow the Christian faith and yet I think we are very good guys that we raised. money for charity but we do what we can to make the world a little less shitty place and where we find it and we don't need this belief to do it so what's the point of believing this?

It's the same as with science. If it has all the benefits you need, why add this baggage? It seems like Greg is saying that it doesn't really matter which God we believe in or what the attributes and definitions of this God are, as long as we believe in him. something because he will make us behave better and be better people, no, but it doesn't matter if that guy really agrees with what you have to do, then what are you doing with evolution? No what are you doing? learn how we came to be and helps us understand our human property.

I didn't like the research I do. I'm currently a graduate student studying bioanthropology, so I have a couple of degrees in biology. I was taught it by someone else and now I work in a lab as a graduate student and researcher. real research that tests hypotheses about human evolution, that's what I do, but it doesn't matter which is which because the understanding of evolution that we have is a big driver of medicine in agriculture and various other things that improve your life if you have been to a doctor in the past your entire life you have benefited for the last 200 years you have benefited from the study of evolution because since you know we understand evolutions we can make better medicines if you have gone to the supermarket and bought food in the last 200 years, if actually in the last 20,000 years they have benefited from our understanding of evolution because there are foods that have been selectively bred to produce more nutrition and better flavors and all kinds of things like evolution is not something that just I know it's something you can use in real life all the time mm-hmm so what's the analogy here between that and your God?

What is something you can do all the time because of your understanding of your God and how does that benefit you? all of society is fine outside of just you know, outside of the basics, what's ingrained in our hearts is to go up there and my experiences, my interactions with people and what I've been given that can't be explained well. things that you can't explain show that that is the possibility that it is God's intervention or discovering what has already been here how proactive God is in our life. I still have to say it, but say that there is nothing that has been established to accept.

Where you are, then you're just limiting yourself and I'm not saying, I'm not saying this out there, yeah, you can't, you keep talking about these things that are imprinted in our hearts and everything, there are evolutionary reasons. for good behavior too, we actually have models of altruism, compassion, kindness, empathy, pain, like all these very human things, quote, quote, that make us good people, so to speak, they all have evolutionary histories and they all have analogues similar direct and other similar species. Do you think there is a moral code written in the Heart of Mice and that is why they release each other from tight cages even at the risk of food rewards or show empathic suffering when one of them is sick and the other travels with them to show their taste? what are they with do you think there's something written in the hearts of elephants and that's why they protect each other and have funerals and things like that what's just a human thing like what's going on with I don't even have I have no idea, I have no idea about that, so why I have no idea, why do you believe in it, but you are implying that this moral code that God has imposed on us makes us behave better and I have to say yes. your belief in God is making you a less shitty person, so keep believing in him, but the point is that there is no evidence to suggest that it takes a God for us to be good people or empathetic or compassionate, that's the truth and you too. you're right there's no belief there's no need for that it's like I say it's in it's in our you don't need that you're right you're right why do we need a God why do we need a God you are you You will never know if you don't even leave that open to the possibility. and you act like Santa Claus until you believe in him, it's something you want to believe in. that's not an argument.

I wish you had the honesty to admit that you believe it just because you want to believe it and it makes you feel better regardless of the evidence, regardless of whether it's true or not, you just want to believe it because it makes you feel better. and that's fine, I mean, no, I don't want to take that away from you, but there are things that happen in this country that people do because they believe that God has given them a mandate to do it and it's to make our world a worse place and it's because that we speak against that, it is not right, that is why we are trying to get to the root of this, is this God true or not? and helping people understand that ethically there is no evidence of it, morally there is no evidence of it. evidence that it's not helping us be a better society, it's a help, it's causing us to be worse and hurt people, so oh, I'll be the first to admit thatreligions and people do it, there is no evidence that this God exists and these people kill and continue to do so because they believe that God has told them that the people who believe in the exact same God as you are the ones who are here writing the monumentally cruel homophobic, transphobic and anti-women bills across the nation.

Right now, people who believe in the same God as you run the Lord's Resistance Army, people who believe in the same God as you join the KKK, so some nice things happen when people believe in God and There are some horrible things. that happens when people believe in God and it is for exactly the same reason why they believe in this God, so why carry the baggage well? I mean, I guess if you already have that prescribed in what I mean, like I said, that goes back to defending what kind of person you are, pursuing it, pursuing it, and testing it to see if it opens you up to opportunities or experiences in your life that you don't know, otherwise, I'm not saying I asked you, I did that, I did that for about 30 35 years.

I gave this God my life and I believed in this God and I pursued this God and I preached and taught the word of this God and I gave him every opportunity to show himself. and he didn't when I examined whether this God was true or not, he came out with a vengeance and I came to the conclusion that this God that I had spent my entire life believing in was no longer true or had never been true and was no longer true. I believed in it, so I applied fierce scrutiny to the idea of ​​this God and it fell short, so I encourage you to apply fierce scrutiny to this God that you have predetermined is there and maybe you will come to the conclusion that it is.

I don't know, but I'm just telling you, well, I did well, my, I still won't continue if I was calling a devout Christian if I was calling a devout Christian um podcast or showing my questions would still be the same thing, no. It is simply opening up to God, why do you determine that God is the way he is? These people who are devout, why do they determine that these are the things that they are? Is the same. I have one more question for you, Greg, and then we have to move on because we've been on this call for about 30 minutes, but like me, I asked one more thing over and over and over again.

I'm going to ask, I want to be clear because I don't want to misrepresent what you're saying, but over and over again you've said that you have to be open to believing in this God in order to get these fantastic experiences and to be able to learn the things that you didn't even know you knew. . I don't even know and in order to like what you know, acquire this knowledge, whether it is moral knowledge or whatever else you are aiming for, you first have to believe or at least allow yourself to be open to believing that to get there is that fair, okay, cool, I just want to make sure I'm understanding correctly.

Do you think there is some kind of knowledge, some kind of moral understanding, some kind of difference, perspective on the world that would be beneficial to you that you could gain? Not believing in God, do you think being an atheist could open some moral and ethical doors for you and help you gain a better perspective on the world? And by not believing in this God, you could get a real vision. I don't believe it? Believing in God provides at least the same caliber of benefits that you think believing in a God provides. Yes, that's what I'm asking you.

You keep saying that if you have to believe first and leave yourself open to this God and then you will see these. benefits I believe and know that I am not saying this just to play word games with you. I truly believe that not believing in God opens you up to better moral insight and understanding and helps you become a better person, so what's the difference? between the two of us here do you think it's possible that if you tried not to believe for a while you could see things differently and it would be better? I could honestly say that if this came between God and people. that just prescribed to God in a doctor as a doctrine and a religious doctrine that yes, I believe it is.

It would be beneficial to have an atheistic view instead of having a hard and fast view of a single description of God because we don't I don't know, we can't, we can't trust that there are discrepancies. If I were a devout Christian, I would see that it would be beneficial for me to lean towards atheism, even, even Charles Hawkins, atheism levels every hour lean more towards atheism with the possibility of leaning towards believing in a god as an atheist instead of say they just get out of there. No, I'm not going to believe in God until someone proves it to me one way or another because that's that's inactive, that's my point of defining God, that's where I would do it.

I would be more apt to define god in a more liberal sense than in a conservative sense in terms of any of the religions that have been established now if I personally lean towards that. I wouldn't recommend forcing myself to prophesy that to someone else so that's my point as to believing in the existing God or the possibility of God and being open to that, I think it's an important factor and you could be an atheist and believe in the possibility . of that God and acting towards that, but not knowing who that God is is just an equivalent at the beginning now yeah, well, that would be agnostic, which you already know, but okay, that's a good honest answer, yeah, okay, Greg, I appreciate you calling.

I feel like we've been talking in circles for a while, but I hope someone got something out of this. Thank you very much for calling. Yes, you have not been rude or unpleasant and I appreciate you taking the time to speak. For us, we have a couple more callers on the line and I'm excited to talk to a couple of them in particular, but I just want to point out that in our original chat we had at least one or two people who said that the god of Bible is good that evolution is not real and more people said that the apocalypse will not come soon it was a small percentage but it is a percentage and none of those people have called, we have come like We have good guys, yes, I really want to talk to this guy in Argentina and then we have someone else here who seemed pretty interesting, but I just want to comment on that one more time, as always.

We always put out a poll at the beginning of the show and say, Hey, what do you think about this? And we always get theists who say no, no, and then they never call us, so if you believe the god of the Bible. is a good person or a good character if you believe that evolution is not real if you believe that the world is going to end soon and Jesus is going to return any day and you tell us, we would love to talk to you We gave you three different things to call and , as usual, they will answer the survey but they will not call us to say, okay, then we will move on, but before we do it real quick, I just have to let you know that if you want to support us and our channel here, there are a few ways that you You can support both The Atheist Experience and ACA as a whole, you can become a member of this channel for as little as 99 cents a month.

Just click the join button below the video and that will give you access to a variety of things including special chat emojis, put the special chat emojis in the chat and let people see those that will be cool, you can also become on a channel member for just 99 cents a month um uh just click the join button uh you can also uh oh uh the eighth experience is one of the many live shows presented by the ACA, so be sure to check out our other programs we have secular sexuality on Thursdays starting at 7 p.m. m.

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Land of Jesus of Christ, that sounds horrible Carlos. How are you today? I'm fine, I'm just relaxing enjoying listening to you. Hello Carlos, thank you for calling us. Well, it's a pleasure to have you on the show. Would you like to tell us a little about your activism? Yes, a couple of years ago I tried it. start to make the separation of church and state because here in Argentina and there there is not one and the opposite reacted a little strongly with me that is why I am totally like that but it is not a Catholic dictatorship but we entered there yes, so you have I' I looked it up in line.

I see some articles here from Brown and other things that just talk about the massive role of the Catholic Church in the government of Argentina and also in the military, and it seems like this is the last regime that's sort of bled dry. Could you give us a little bit of detail because I don't know anything about the politics of this region and I don't know enough to say anything intelligent about us. I'd love to hear from you, you know? What exactly is happening? Well, I'm not an expert, but I've been here for 40 years and I can really say that today there are two candidates for Representatives, the pro or the conservatives and the Betterness or the Justicialists are from the left. something like that but it's all a lie because everyone is attached to the media scene and large corporations unfortunately here in Argentina there is a lot of hypocrisy there is a decadence in all aspects everyone talks about the degree of Now, the lack of a better economy, but everything is sadly falling and, very sadly, the whole government of the last 20 years was terrible and everyone was saying yes, yes, let's go to the right because the Kitcheners are bad and everyone is bad and suddenly.

People don't see that, there's always, unfortunately, how can I say it? He just stays, since everyone is corrupt. It's hard to say this about my country, but it's true, you're preaching to the choir yes. When we're talking about corrupt governments, we totally understand, yeah, it's sad what kind of persecution I'd really like to say, yeah, you know there are some politicians who can do good or something, but there's certainly a lack of real reality check. from the people. everyone is busy watching football. um, stupid things. Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you, yes, and you're fine.

What kind of person did you mention? Persecution, how do they persecute you like seven years ago, when I started? the separation of the Junction state threats begins uh like shut up and on the street and on the street and on the Internet it was very frequent but I didn't pay attention you know it was uh I'm a big guy so I play tough and first It was a couple of civilians so the police started saying that they were going to kill me and something like that and they got very scared, I really got scared, I was very afraid, very, very afraid, because the police in Argentina that you can see is a director here in Argentina.

You can watch many documentaries about the dictatorship and how all the structures are still and hidden under the Catholic church and the conservative party mmm, well, it sounds yes. I got scared, really scared and I went to Uruguay. I asked for asylum. I was there for a couple of months I didn't really I couldn't settle down and I was under my uh she graduated with medication she was really on a bad tape and my parents went to ask me to come back and sadly I listened to them. and again I'm having trouble yes, you rejoined the church, you mean, yes, I didn't hear what you rejoined, you say you rejoined because your parents pressured you and you rejoined the church, that's what you meant by the church, uh, my parents are but they are conservative, okay, they asked me to return to Argentina because they felt I was alone there, so I made the mistake of returning.

I see, I understand you, yes, that makes sense, well, it sounds like you have a significantly tougher Strife than I got here in Oklahoma, which helped me put into perspective that we live in, you know, here in the US. In the US, especially where I am, there are double-digit churches within walking distance of every house I have ever lived in. but at least I've never been threatened by a police officer for speaking out against, well, not much, but yeah, you know, obviously we're a non-profit and we can't make bold statements about supporting any political candidate or anything Well, but I can say that I appreciate you calling and sharing a little bit of your story with us and I sincerely hope that you are safe and that you were able to use your voice as safely as possible.

It's more than just psychological warfare, you understand that and yeah, It's like one day you can relax, you can relax because you are always waiting for a blow, a thread, a nail, a sword and I can't say more because other things happen. but I can't really say that, honestly, there is a kind of spiral from everyone, we better shut up and look the other way and it's very sad, he is really very sad because I was a patriot. I really love my country, but when people start. that they see me as a weirdo because I didn't believe in what they do and how politics is here they treat me like a foreigner and this is another bad thing when I was a child when I was a child my whole life my my My father was Jewish and such Maybe in the federal district there are Jews, but not in the surrounding areas and in the state, and I had some pretty difficult times because of that and when I became an atheist that was just fuel for the fire, which I love.You talk about this so much and I hate to say the word love because you're talking about painful things, but what I hope other people hear and what makes me happy to hear is that you like your experiences and what you're saying.

Especially there are so many people calling that there are so many people saying the same thing and all of those people saying that they feel isolated and that they feel attacked and alone and you know that doesn't take away anything. you're saying I I I I I sincerely hope you were able to stay safe because it's a scary situation. I hope other people hear this around the world because this show is heard everywhere. I hope that people who hear this, you know, can relate to what you know. are saying and you can, in a way, you can feel a little bit together and you can feel that you are connected in some way because that is very, very common, things are difficult everywhere, especially for atheist communities, for God's sake, for atheists.

Jews. communities absolutely um, but I sincerely thank you for calling me and sharing this with me seriously, yeah, I hope things get better in your country. I know it's a battle in many places around the world where we've dealt with it here in the United States, how about this, how about this movement, this movement, something I'm going to leave, I'm sorry, I didn't want to interrupt you, okay, are you Well, uh, he said because I try everything the Democratic way, I didn't even do it? I condemned the people who took Rock to church and all that and I didn't, I don't understand, I want to, it's just okay, let's have a debate, let's chat about the separation of church and state and everything goes to hell. and yeah, I don't want to start, it's hard when you can't even exactly have a discussion, it's like, hey, I'm from Argentina, you're from the United States, but we have common ground. we can, we can talk and I can talk to a Muslim, a Jew, whatever, but these people, fanatics, that's the real problem when people have fanatic ideas, it happened with all aspects, even with I was a communist when I was a communist . teenager and the same thing happened it's like it's a dogma it's like adopting I don't understand, you know, don't think, just go with the flow and if you're not, you're a lazy bum, you're outside or you're you're looking for something you're guilty of something you know it's like it's not like you know you can it's amazing because you can almost hear the priest spreading the rumors you know this guy is something bad about maybe it's something dark um but um true the worst thing is from my partner my father I'm luciferian but I'm luciferian atheist in the sense of philosophy I understand Lucifer as a philosophical poem as an archetype of as Jung says and I can explain to these people that it is a statement from a philosopher, you understand that they treated it as if oh, this guy is exciting, surely he is plotting bad things and I'm not, I'm not, I'm not a saint, you know, I've been around.

I have been aggressive with people who have been aggressive with me, but I am not a terrorist. You understand that this is how you treat me, yes, yes, I totally understand. I appreciate you sharing it with us, we have to move on because thank you. Guys, seriously, I appreciate you sharing all of this with us and helping people get perspective. Seriously, super nice guy Carlos, uh, very quick, we have a lot of other calls on the line that I want to get to, including a couple of them. I'm actually very excited, but we're running out of time, so real quick I have to let the audience know that the ACA features several other programs in addition to The Atheist Experience, including non-profits and secular sexuality and the truth. one and then talk even and if you didn't watch all the shows last week, here's a little taste of things you probably want to go back and see what your experience has been, what advice you can give, what it looks like to someone. who's maybe just starting out and uh, you can always get more than just the right tip, thank you, you know, I mean, we always have been, of course, yeah, drugs, you know, maybe it's my good looks, I don't know how they feel.

They always need to tell me about Jesus and that's a good look and it's not like they're trying to keep that face that you need to be saved honey, even then Ben's atheists on Twitter will argue all day about whether we're missing a Do we think we claim that a God is not real? You know, there are even semantics as to what an atheist actually is. I didn't get to know myself until I was 20 and I hope kids today have options sooner. let them really know themselves while they are young so they can have their closed minded ideas, but I don't think it's improving anything and the data shows that they are foreigners, well we have, holy shit, like 10 callers on the line and We have about 30 minutes left, so I'll try to complete as many of these as possible before we have to finish.

I'm looking at line number 13. I don't know about you, but I thought you might be, you know me, take it, take it, let's go, so I said a minute ago that no one would call to say that evolution is not real and that we have one, we have to Rick, uh, calling from Canada. He says that evolution is not reasonable, there are holes in every aspect, Rick, how are you doing today? Hey, how are you guys? Hey Rick, I'm doing great, man, so like I said, we're trying to be concise, but I don't want to interrupt you, so could you please tell me quickly what you were saying exactly? about Evolution?

How do you not think it works? Yeah, so I think there are holes in everything, obviously, it would take a lot. of calls and I'll call them work, just break them down, but first I just wanted to tell you that you believe that evolution is a correct fact and you believe that 98 of the species that we don't know and probably never will know, you can testify. To that, I'd like to be pedantic and point out that I try not to use the word believe with these things because it's a question of evidence, not belief, but for the sake of the argument, yes, the evidence is more than compelling to show that you know.

Evolution is a real fact, it is a real thing, it has happened and is happening, it is the natural logical progression of how we understand life works and the vast majority of species on this planet have already died and have already become extinct and you know . most of them will never know because fossils are difficult, so based on that, can you honestly say that talking snakes don't exist? The talking donkeys go to Muhammad's lion, a flying horse. These things don't exist. Can you say that with some based on that I wouldn't, I wouldn't base anything on that other than I'm logical, I think in logic we could say that snakes and donkeys don't talk, um, I have no evidence of those. things, there's nothing in evolution that says talking snakes aren't real, it's just that you know we clearly can't find any evidence that the same thing ever existed with donkeys, the same thing with flying horses, the same thing with dividing the moon in half and all the other miracles that exist, yes. what is reproducing on the moon is a miracle.

I'm talking about your guys' miracles of evolution, right, those things are viable, but anyway, happy monkeys instead of talking, a talking snake is viable, but evolution is no no. I say this according to you, talking monkeys. are viable, so I was talking about the snake not really being outside the realm of possibility, right, it's a matter of anatomy, not an ability and a desire, so like you and I right now it's not because of a language complex, but again, you and I are great apes. They're talking right now, so yes, it's obviously something that can happen, however, I haven't heard it yet.

I used to work with snakes quite a bit during my undergrad. I cared for hundreds of pythons and boas and calubris, sorry, I never did. Any of them ask me how my day was or something and then I want to get some Neanderthals, but as for snakes, don't you think it's ironic that the only real residual evidence we have for evolution is in the snake? and it is the only creature that God predicted to have no legs in the Bible, everything else is speculation but the snake actually has legs that we can observe and we can see a reverse genetic coding with its limbs and God, that is the only creature What God really says.

You're not going to have legs anymore, don't you think that's convincing? So fast. Just one thing. I'm going to answer that I'm not going to dodge that question, but I just want to really answer, like you said the snake. This is the only evidence of evolution based on the fact that it still has small leg bones and genetic remains. No, no, I'm saying there are actually viable and demonstrable residual limbs. There are a lot of other things that you connect to it, but those delays are undeniably right there in pythons, especially pythons, especially the ones that have little hips and little bones in their legs, all the femur bones that are left of their evolutionary history, that's called vestigial structure, um, and there are also genetic vestiges, but they're not even close to the only ones that have various vestigial structures in their body right now, as well as other animals, for example, whales, too They have small pelvises and leg bones, just like pythons, and even though they do nothing, they do nothing.

Maybe there are acceptances, there is some evidence of that, but they are also remnants of evolution, have you ever seen a race of whales? Do you know that they use them to catch themselves due to their weight and size? They are very, very good. Sorry, you may not be familiar with the lingo, that could be my fault, but I just said that maybe an accuracy but also an adaptation means something that is a vestigial structure, something that used to be something that now through the Evolution is kind. decomposed into a little shadow of its former self, but now it is used for a different purpose, it is its new purpose, its new use is different from what it originally evolved, that is an acceptance and yes, there is pretty good evidence now that For some species of whales, the pelvises are muscular insertions for their penises, however that doesn't mean it isn't true for anything else, for example you mentioned snakes, especially snakes, like ball pythons and Burmese pythons. , which have big spurs right there.

The cloacas that males make are vestigial structures left from the bones of the femur and now, as exceptions, they are also used in reading to stimulate the female, so, again, you are not saying anything new here, you are just pointing out two desperately different. you know, examples and saying they don't make sense when in reality they are the same thing, but we can see that we can see them in some of them, as well as in fossils, we have fossils of the so-called whale transitions, but none of them are actually in actually they're just species it's like it doesn't always say what that proves it just everything is a species proves it's a species exactly it doesn't it doesn't it doesn't show a leg growing a light it's just a different species that's it Everything is, but snakes are the only ones, so we have something that we cannot deny, so if what you are saying is that all we can say is that these animals existed, we cannot say that they are actually whales, there are two things.

What I would say about that number one is, are you familiar with the steno superposition law? no, sorry, it was the late '60s, late 1600s, early 1700s, there's a guy named Nicolas steno um and he pointed out that the tongue stones we were finding were actually ancient teeth from sharks that no longer existed. . The tongue stones were Megalodon teeth. um and this was the beginning of our understanding of what a fossil was uh and Stena was also like a very, very early geologist hundreds of years before the field of geology was established um and it was based on his studies of paleontology or what we thought what we didn't know was paleontology at the time.

He established what he called the law of superposition, which is simply saying that when we look at layers of strata in the geological column, when we look at layers of the earth piled up the top layers are the newest and the bottom layers are the youngest and when we look at times one infiltrating several of them that must be the youngest of all but that's a different rule for a at different times, so because of stennis, well, that's one of the main things, because of the law of superposition of steno, which is one of the main fundamental principles of the field of geology, so we know that when we look at these whale fossils find them in order and the deeper we go, the less these things will look like whales and the more they will look like little wolves funky, right, um, and so right away, even if you want to say, all we know is that these things exist, yes, they exist. in this particular order and when you line them all up they slowly become a whale and you can see it with your eyes.

You could also say that we can't say that these things are related to each other, but if you said that We have to take into account comparative anatomy, we can look at the anatomical features, bone structures and markings of certain species and say who they are related to. That's why we know that whales actually belong to the whale family.artiodactyls, which means that whales are more closely related to deer than they are to horses or, you know, fish or anything else, how cool is that and we can do that because we can look at certain bones not only in the ear but also in the ankle bones, for example, the talus bone is very common that we talked about and we can see that it connects all of these different species and is not found in other species, so we can safely say, without speculation, that they all These fossils existed, we can say that all these species. existed so that we can say that they were definitely all related to each other and we can say that over the course of a few million years they became whales, that's evolution, that's how it works, it's not just a line of evidence and it's not just a I guess so, but then look and granted, but you're not taking into account the fact that every time we find one of these, they are completely useful according to their species, we don't see anything that is not useful in the extent to which evolution must have done so.

It happened that to get to that point there must have been a point where they had some annoying limb that was dragging how they survived and whatnot, but we didn't find any of that, all we found are species, species, that's it, there are two main ones. . problems with what you just said, the first thing is that we absolutely find things like that, you're just not seeing them as they are, um, the concepts of selection pressure is the idea that selection pressure is an evolving term and what it means is a differential source of mortality or fertility within a given environment and what that means is simply that if you do this you die, if you don't do that you die well, it's a way of measuring the probability of something happening. to be able to reproduce, so when we see that you know these types of medium-sized whales, things like ambulosis, for example, they almost certainly couldn't walk on land, but they definitely still had little things or even more than that, like a dorudon that He didn't walk at all. on land it had tiny, chubby hind legs and a big, flabby body like that thing that wouldn't come out of the water, so now you can say, well, there's no selection pressure anymore to get rid of these legs because the legs aren't. hurt anything, but remember it's about conserving energy, it's about using energy to survive, so the whales that didn't put energy into developing useless legs had that energy to do other things and this goes into something called the expensive tissue hypothesis, which is all idea that you know that building structures in your body costs energy and therefore if you use that energy for other things, then you have those other things, so that's it, so It's not like these guys had to have a big drag problem.

These useless legs around is just a matter of them becoming smaller and smaller for lack of necessity until finally it was beneficial to not have the same with blind cave animals, such as cave fish, cave salamanders. caverns and these. things that don't have eyes and normally we would say that having eyes is a good thing, but in their environment it was actually beneficial for them to lose them because if they put the energy into building eyes, they could get damaged or infected. or eaten or bitten or anything else that was more expensive than just not growing eyes so the mutations to destroy his eyes actually became beneficial and that's the most important thing to remember and then I'll shut up after this , but it is the most important thing.

What you have to remember is that when an animal, any species, gains fitness in one environment, it loses fitness in another environment, so you can't look at it and say aha, this is now a perfect whale and this is an intermediate whale. It's just not how it works Hey, look, could I jump in a second here? I've had it, yeah, and Rick, I just want to ask you one thing, um, I don't know, I don't know anywhere near what Forrest knows about Evolution and, but. It seems to me Rick that it is very important to you that evolution is not true and that you are not willing to trust the science of evolution but you are willing to trust that a snake that he talked about in the Garden of Eden would do that.

You're right, no, no, I don't need to despair. I mean, a revolution doesn't disprove God at all. I'm just a real skeptic at heart, right, that's what skepticism is, wait, wait, you're a skeptic, but you think it's necessary. a serpent spoke in the garden do you believe in the literal biblical vision of the Garden of Eden with Adam and Eve and the serpent? Well, it's a snake, whatever that means? I don't know, describe this service. Okay, that's the question you literally believe in. that a snake spoke to the first man and the first woman, but you are a skeptic, yes, Jesus also called men vipers, yes, absolutely fine, but you are a skeptic, you say, but you believe so, okay, I think that Jesus called men of serpents, yes, rest.

I leave my case, sorry, I don't have anything else anyway, so like you're saying for us those little limbs that might have been because he hunted and the weight was on him and he needed those little ones, all that's good is kind of which has all the fruits, right, that's what we would say about higher Indo or Pakistani. That's not what we would say about amidocious or durodon. I think we could do this all day, we'll probably have to take a couple, yeah, but that's yeah, I always want to reiterate. Yes, we can prove that these species existed, that is the goal of the fossil record.

We see that these species did in fact exist and what we know for sure is the order in which they existed. We know that they are related to each other. each other and we know that when we line them up back to back we get endohias jumping around like a little wolf deer and then we have fucking whales on the other side so when you put them in the order they are clearly in this is This is the evidence we have , this is what we see, you can see it with your own eyes and not to mention the fact that we are just talking about a big macro evolution in Wales, as if evolution is something you can see happening in one. human life all the time you can see it with your eyes we have laboratory experiments and field experiments that clearly show evolution.

I know and that brings me to the Neanderthals. I know you guys are short on time so I'll call back for that, but that's a perfect segue into the Neanderthal point, but thanks for your time guys, I'll wait until you're back for us. I'm dying to know what the point of Neanderthals is now, yeah I gotta move yeah I just wanna say. If you believe that a snake talked to Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, you are not a skeptic, let's leave it at that. I can, I can agree with that, but Rick, I truly appreciate you being concise with us and getting past that.

I'd love to talk to you a little more if you want to call back and I appreciate you being one of the Evolutions callers. What we were asking about I'll probably be back sometime in February unless something happens. and they need me quickly in January, so you know, please call me again and tell me about the Neanderthals, so we have a few left here and we have like, I think, 20 minutes, very quickly, if you can organize it. to be in the Austin area between January 26-29, continue joining us in the studio audience at the ACA Freethought Library for the livestream of the secular sexuality talk Truth Wanted.

Doors to Heathen and The Atheist Experience open at 6pm on Thursdays and Fridays and at noon. On Sundays, the parking lot is where you can find a legal spot after the parking lot is full. It is a very small parking lot. I've been there, you have to get there early and if you can't come this month, it's okay because you can, we will. We continue to broadcast live from the library the last week of each month, so keep watching this show and stay up to date with our website atheismcommunity.org for news and information as we expand our studio offerings and talk about being in the local Austin area, oh My.

Glob um who's on screen here uh we're looking for additional talented presenters and crew members for all shows so if you're interested in helping out with audio video or hosting on any of our shows you can be live in the studio. email us at TV at atheist hyphencommunity.org and the production team will be in touch shortly and with that we're now going to jump into um oh a couple of these sound good. I'm looking at 17 18 or 11. Which one? Would you prefer we talk to 18? I also liked 18. Okay, so I'll go with Bill's pronouns. He's calling you from Illinois and wants to talk about coming out as an atheist with his wife Bill.

How are you today? Hey. guys thanks for taking my call first of all I just wanted to say Forrest I really love all your content the second sensitivity video you put out someone said you didn't like it but it was super informative and I really appreciate it and I want to redo it because we are Pretty good, yes, yes, no. I've heard you say that before, but even as it stands it's still super informative. I know you're running out of time, so I'll do it. Make it quick, I've deconverted in the last year and a half, let's say, and I haven't admitted to myself that I'm an atheist until about six months ago.

I grew up super religious, in church every night, or day just doing different things and you know, my whole community was all my friends were that community, so when I left, that faded away, so, that's it, but then my wife, she grew up Catholic, went to a Catholic school. Um, but we don't practice anything anymore. We've been together for about 12 years and you know I've attended a Catholic mass with her like it's not very common, but it's still hard because you know it's a complete world view. that changes and we have a daughter now she is two and a half years old and I know that the question is going to come up about how to get baptized and everything and fortunately with the covid we have been able to postpone it a little, but you know, I want my daughter to be more of a critical thinker and don't believe everything you know, someone tells you and I'm just looking for some advice on how I can confess to my wife and you don't know, do it. gently, you know, my conversion took over.

The deep conversion took so long, it's like it's hard to, you know, have a conversation because, to accept it within yourself, it takes a long time to get there, um, if that makes any sense, then, I don't know if. I, I, just need some advice on what you guys might suggest. Do you think Dave would probably be much better equipped than this for me? Well, how much do you think she knows? I mean, do you have any conversations? about your changes or something a little bit um we're both very left wing so when we point out certain things it's easy to say, oh, those religious people or something and we haven't really had much of a conversation about it, I've dropped a few seeds, a little bit about you know, critical thinking and our own biases and stuff, but nothing specific to religion, right?

If it's possible that she's more of a cultural Catholic than a, you know, Die. It's hard to be there all the time at mass and I'm very uninformed about Catholicism. My Lane was a fundamentalist evangelical, but it's entirely possible that she's more um, I think this because she's been, you know, she's in my family and this is who. I am, so to speak, and she might want your child to be baptized just for that. I would avoid labels as much as possible like "one word is very scary." Even you admitted that it was for yourself and it's going to be scary, but if you can keep asking skeptical questions and bring skepticism to the conversation like it seems like you already have, then you'll start to break down that monster of religion and it's not such a monster. large and I would take the Long View and I'm not an expert on this so please, I'm not a therapist of any kind.

I just have many years of experience in this. I would adopt Long View regarding her son and I mean the truth is whether she gets baptized or not it's not going to change her life we ​​know she just you know she's going to get wet uh right your wife might think that is being protected from evil spirits or that she is prepared to be right with God and if your wife feels better about that it may not be the worst thing in the world and let her go ahead with that ceremony with that ritual because you know that she is not going to change nothing at all and you will be there as your daughter grows and starts having conversations and starts learning about the world, you will be there to help her think skeptically and critically and it sounds like your wife will be okay with that, so that I would just tiptoe through this part of the forest and not enter the forest or even him.

I'm in a real hurry to like Define Things and you know everyone has to pick a side and just let things work themselves out because they very well could. I mean, it doesn't sound like your wife's now if she were a fundamentalist, you know? everyone is there in church all the time and they're bible freaks, we're talking about different treatment, so that's somethinginsult us, answer the question, God can kill, you are saying that God can kill whoever he wants, is that true? I just said again in light of virtue not in light of just answering the question yes or no he's just looking to be stubborn and ridiculous I'm not going to entertain someone who throws insults that sucks no we're not going to do that if you have an actual adult argument you'd like to bring up, that would be great, uh, if you can answer a yes or no question without having to do all these caveats, because in light of yes, it's okay to murder babies, yeah, in light of yeah, and then he calls us, yeah, he, we gave him too much air, but it's gross, man, it's so gross, well, it's six o'clock, let's see here, real quick, let me put that in there, okay, cool, so yeah, that's the end. of our show because it's six o'clock we have to move on um real quick uh to everyone watching I want to thank you so much for being here today and for tuning in and listening to us talk to crazy people um It was several until the last last guy.

Sorry, he was remarkably civil. We had very good conversations even with people who have had crazy beliefs. um uh. I want to thank you all for being here. Visit our website. Ethan. atheist hyphencommunity.org for the latest on what's been happening, feel free to contact us on TV at atheismcommunity.org if you have any questions, comments, concerns, or whatever. um he's always an incredibly fantastic host. I always love doing this. I loved it for us. Thank you all. who called, sorry for some we couldn't get to but it was great Yeah yeah actually the lines were filling up towards the end which sucks but yeah hopefully we'll call again next time and we'll be here again next time.

I'll probably be back in February in a few moments. I hope one person wants to talk about Neanderthals, we'll call me again and we'll talk about it because it sounds like a lot of fun and until then, have an amazing rest of your day have an amazing rest of your life and never stop learning bye bye everyone for start opening your eyes thanks foreigner for getting sexy so watch secular sexuality live on thursdays at 7 p.m. Visit central tiny.cc slash ytss and call Enter the program at 512-991-9242 or connect to the program online at tiny.cc slash call s e x Foreign