Post Office scandal: outrage as Channel 4 News reveals covert recordings

Last night, Channel 4 News aired secret

recordings

of conversations between senior Post Office executives and independent investigators. This is very close to one of the central themes of the complaint. Yeah, you know, and I think we've confirmed that you know. that the ability to what was alleged somehow appears to have existed for a decade, they showed that the

post

office

was warned about problems with its Horizon system, which led to the prosecution of hundreds of sub

post

masters despite knowing this at the time they denied there was any evidence of wrongdoing and, if there had been any miscarriage of justice, there was a miscarriage of justice described as the largest in UK history, a miscarriage of justice so astonishing that the gray surroundings of a committee room became Blockbuster TV. drama that we have provided for each case, a thorough and detailed independent investigation, I stop you today responding to our report, the Labor party said it was proof of a cover-up, well I congratulate Channel 4 for doing this and the extraordinary thing about the recording is which is in such stark contrast to the assurances given by the postal service to MPs and ministers over several years that the Horizon system was bombproof, here is how events unfolded over the last 25 years and keep an eye on the side right, which is a rolling counter of criminal convictions of subpostmasters in 1999, the post

office

implements a new system from Fujitsu called Horizon within the first year, subpostmasters begin reporting problems with the system, creating false deficiencies In 2004 Alan Bates refuses to accept responsibility for losses at his branch and terminates his contract in 2009, an article in Computer Weekly details the experience of Bates and others, so Bates forms the Justice Alliance for Subpostmasters.

In 2012, Conservative MP James AB Bunot meets Post Office chief executive Paul Lenel and demands an independent investigation, which is when Ian Henderson sites second. and Ron Warington are brought in the following year is when our phone calls reveal the pair telling the post office that Horizon can be accessed remotely, something the Masters subpost long complained about but the office Post Office denied Paul de Venel Chief Executive of Post Office and two years after the recording about the defects with Horizon Paul de Venel told this to the Business Select Committee for us and if there had been any miscarriage of justice it would have been very important to me at the post office that we actually brought to light those um and as the investigations have been done so far we have had no evidence of that and as you know we are required by disclosure law to release anything that we find can contribute to that and and yet, by the end of that year, more than 700 subpostmasters had received criminal convictions and it will take another 4 years until the post office agrees to pay compensation to some of those affected.

In 2021 the public investigation begins and this year, after the broadcast of My ITV debates versus the post office, there is renewed pressure for justice to be done and the government says that they will annul the convictions of the defendants. The

scandal

has engulfed those in government at the time, such as Sir Ed Davey, who was postal affairs minister between 2010 and previously apologized in 2012 for failing to see the Post Office's lies which he said were confirmed by Channel 4

news

recordings

, but this is further proof of how extensive the Post Office lies were that they lied to the subpoost Masters.

They lied to the courts, they lied to ministers like me and many other ministers who were involved during this 20 year period, and the post office really needs to be held to account and the managers who were part of this conspiracy of lies need to be brought to book. to Justice, the Metropolitan Police who launched an investigation in January 2020 said today that there had been no change to their position with the investigation ongoing and only two people questioned so far. The public inquiry now in its fourth year restarts on April 9 when we asked Paula. We came to the post office and Fujitsu for a response to our report yesterday, they declined to comment citing the ongoing investigation.

The investigation will be yet another opportunity for the Subpost Masters to get more answers, but many are still waiting for not only compensation but justice. Joining me now, our former sub postmasters, Chris, run in Newcastle and Chag Sidp, here in the studio, both lost everything after the post office accused them of stealing huge sums of money. CH zir first. I really wonder what your response was when I saw those secret recordings that we aired last night uh after watching the recording. I went through this whole subsequent

scandal

in October 20177 and it came into 2018 um at that time listening to the recording Paula venos um Angela vanen Bogard alist Cameron everyone must have done it.

He must have known what was happening in the organization at that time. We still don't know what Paul Lenel, the boss, knew, when, but the organization as a whole and the bosses, well, they must have been leaked, leaked from the bottom up, especially when you see that the lawyers knew that they obviously had to talk to the CEO of the company to let them know what's going on and why they're doing what they're doing, Chris Head, let me tell you what it was. your response when you were watching our report last night and what you think are the key questions that arise from it.

Well, I think Shag just said you know we need to meet our lions and Susan Kon who was on that call. Do you know if they told Paula Venos and what exactly they told her? Because you know we've had to use these words over time and you know it's potentially, you know, perjury and all this kind of stuff, but I think you know the evidence. It's always been there what we could say and the report is confirming it and you know the fact that most of us went to that court case in 2018 and 2019 and we still claim that we knew remote access was not possible and they made it known endless. amounts of taxpayer money on that Cas trying to get rid of the judge, uh, to effectively bury Masters' position and you know they were close to succeeding and you know if that had been successful, we wouldn't be where we are. today Che, you saw the leader of the album, former minister Ed Davy, talking about the post office lie and how furious he was about it.

Do you think there is any chance that the post office will eventually be held accountable and brought to justice for this? I think they are too powerful. um with bottomless pockets like they did with the group litigation in 20 uh 2018 2019 they spent over £100 million of taxpayers' money uh just on legal fees for themselves um they have too much money and too much power for potential uh Prosecutor Chris What is your response to that? Yeah, I mean, they're said to have infinite amounts of money and you know, obviously we haven't been able to link it yet, but I mean, I can't believe it.

At one point you know you have to spend that amount of money, that the authorization doesn't come from the government because it is effectively a government-owned organization and we know from documents that the Post Office could never spend more than £50 million without prior approval. from their shareholder, so you know it must have come from them and therefore you know that this may go much further than the post office itself and that is something we will have to find out when the investigation continues. I mean, Chris, you know? The government is introducing the Post Office Crimes Bill which now automatically quashes the convictions of subpostmasters.

Mistresses do the work or there is more work to be done in that legislation itself. I think there's still more that needs to be done in that legislation obviously it will overturn convictions which means obviously people will be able to access the compensation that they deserve but you know we have things like the group that originally took our place before the courts in 20189 still not They've been paid and you know you have these promises of deals within 40 days, but what you're really seeing is the government saying 85% are done within 40 days if you actually remove the people who have taken the permanent.

The award sum of £75,000, bids made within 40 days is well under 50% I would say, and you know we need some sort of amendment inserted into that legislation so that you know some sort of deadlines that know as binding deadlines to be able to they have to deliver a bid within the set time period or that there is some sort of penalty for them for not doing so well, timing is everything here and you know the chief of the metropolitan police has said that It will take years to complete your research, I mean. Many have died before receiving justice.

What is the ongoing cost of delay to the living? Well, I'm 40 years old right now, it's already been six years for me, how many more years is it going to be until we see? Justice must be done how long I have I don't know and you still haven't received your full compensation you have what is 20% 20% um of my original claim um and the post office is still asking for more information um ask for medical records letters from the doctor scrutinizing everything Chris what's the burden on you of this still now yeah the battle continues um you know like everyone else you know we've seen a very small number of complaints in my Jos game came in finalized in September last year and you know the offer came on December 28th, which was less than 15% of the original claim.

You know we have rejected that we have gone through what was supposed to be a mediation process. ADR, you know that to participate in that call, we were told that we had to be able to make or receive offers on the call, yet the government did not authorize its attorneys on the same call to make or receive offers on its behalf. So you know there was no way there was no agreement on it, so to me it was like bad faith and we are still in the balance and waiting for the government's response. and his lawyers still, so we're in the dark Chris Head Shid, thank you both so much for joining me.