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GRT 2022 - Insuring the Net-Zero Transition: Evolving tools and methods

Mar 06, 2024
welcome foreigner to the fourth day of the unified Global Roundtable and to start this fourth day we will talk about the role of insurance in the series Net uh net SEO

transition

, so let's take a step back and understand how important this moment is. because if you really look at the role of the insurance industry in recent years in terms of climate action, most people and stakeholders would associate insurance with adaptation and resilience to climate change, which remains a fundamental contribution of insurance in climate action and On the climate change mitigation side, in most cases, insurers have been evaluated in that space in their role as institutional investors.
grt 2022   insuring the net zero transition evolving tools and methods
That's why, for example, the leading insurers in the media, including the insurer we have today, are really strong members of the Net Zero Asset Owner Alliance, yet that narrative around insurance and climate change and Net Zero changed last year with the launch of the Net Zero Insurance Alliance, which is based on the Unipathy principles for sustainable insurance, so we launched it at the G20 Climate Summit in Venice last July and now we are here to report. To tell you about the progress that the Net Serial Insurance Alliance has made, first we had eight members and now we have almost 30 members from around the world representing approximately 15 percent of the global premium volume, so it is an important part of the market of insurance and now We are here to really articulate what is the fundamental work that the Net Zero Insurance Alliance has accomplished in about a year to drive the Net Zero

transition

as insurers, not just as investors, which is in a separate alliance.
grt 2022   insuring the net zero transition evolving tools and methods

More Interesting Facts About,

grt 2022 insuring the net zero transition evolving tools and methods...

To start off this discussion, I'm going to go curate nitors from the CEO of the Association for Carbon Accounting Finance, let's get our alphabet soup together here, so that's pcaf for short and in a nutshell, pcaf is basically the one that sets the standard for how to account for emissions in the real economy and attribute them to financial portfolios um uh, who have worked on loans and investments and are now doing something with us in insurance, so let's focus on accounting first and why this, then that's your insurance. Alliance is a big turning point in terms of this space in Net Zero and how it relates to Peak, then Hill, yeah, thanks Butch for this nice introduction, nice to talk to you and be part of this panel at the Roundtable global so a few words about uh big F uh bkf the partnership for carbon accounting finance is a collaboration of financial institutions for financial institutions is an industry-led initiative that started in 2015 in the Netherlands, then moved in 2018 to North America and then a group of financial institutions stood up and decided to globalize this initiative and create a global standard, so in September 2019 this initiative was globalized, we started and launched the global initiative at that time we were with about 50 financial institutions of all types, yes, banks, asset managers, asset owners, insurance companies and Now we have more than 320 financial institutions representing 80 trillion US dollars in total assets that have grown very rapidly during the last three years and in fact we cover all types of financial institutions that PCAF can join.
grt 2022   insuring the net zero transition evolving tools and methods
The main objective of BGEV is to really standardize the way in which financial institutions measure and disclose emissions related to their financial activities and already in one year we managed to launch the first global greenhouse gas accounting and reporting standard for the financial industry and The standard was also reviewed and approved by the Greenhouse Gas Agency. protocol to be in compliance with the scope 3 requirements for reporting category 15 investments. We continued to work, of course, because the initial standard focused on lending and investing so-called financial issues. We continue to work, we also work with investment banks to capture capital.
grt 2022   insuring the net zero transition evolving tools and methods
Market activities, but in September 201 or September last year we decided to also collaborate with NetZero Insurance Alliance and create a global working group that works on measuring and developing

methods

to measure emissions and disclose emissions related to insurance contracts. insurance, the so-called issues associated with insurance. So during that period of time, about a year, a little over a year, a group of global financial insurance companies worked together and created

methods

focused on commercial lines of business and personal lines, especially related to motor. Ferris methods have been developed. The tests have been discussed intensively with the group and those methods in fact mainly focus on attributing missions that exist in the real economy, so emissions from companies or emissions from motor vehicles, how to attribute those emissions to insurance contracts, so what is the participation of an insurance contract in emissions, you could say that they exist, those methods have also been brought to public consultation and we had two public consultations on the scope document, as well as on our progress report, and the group collected all that feedback and is now finalizing. uh the standard, the first standard for insurance underwriting and associated insurance issuances, and we hope to publish that standard at the climate conference later this year, very happy to talk about that on this panel and I ask that you continue, sorry.
Last year at this time there really was nothing yet on a stand about an accounting standard to measure insurance associate emissions and now we are in a public consultation and by the end of this year here I think we will produce that first global standard. A follow-up question for you, Hill obviously started working in finance, Emissions on Landing, investments a few years ago, yeah, and for a lot of people, you know, they say they know people can easily use the term Finance to encompass everything from loans to investments. and insurance, but finance is really heterogeneous, insurance is different from landing and investing, so in this work of more than a year with insurers to shape this next standard, what are the key ideas that you learn?
Both differences, similarities, challenges, opportunities between the issuances of Finance in The Lending and Investment space compared to the missions of Insurance Associated yes, yes, great question, but first of all, I think it's important to know that we start by understanding the principles of the greenhouse gas protocol and also these differences between loans and investments in a company and provision of funds. For example, an insurance that underwrites an insurance contract and there are clear differences and there are also clear differences in accounting, but they are still based on the same accounting principles and because there are differences between when you invest in a company or when you insure a company, I would still like to create metrics that incentivize in both senses and both from the investment side and from the insurance side.
There is a way to influence this company and make this company align with Net Zero goals, we could say, but since these ways are different, we also decide. that the emissions associated with insurance must be reported separately, so when the financial institution reports its emissions, of course, there are one and two emissions from its own organization, but the bulk of the emissions are in the financial activities of the portfolio, I could say it in that sense. Financial institutions such as insurance companies can already begin measuring asset management activities with the standard we published in November 2020, but we now also have methods available to measure and report emissions related to insurance underwriting, but They must be clearly separated because the methods differ.
Thank you. Hill, thanks for those thoughts, so let's move on and move on to our next feature. We have Martin Wayman from Swiss Tree. His new title is actually head of global sustainability at Swiss Tree and, importantly, he is a global reinsurer. They guarantee insurance companies that it is. Your core business also has an entity that directly insures corporate clients, for example, so Martin, why don't you share with us your thoughts on the implications and meaning of Net Zero, particularly what Hill said about the now-that are we measuring? Insurance Associated asks what the implications of this would be for an entity, for example, like Swiss Three, and why he doesn't share his thoughts with us.
Thank you Butch for inviting me here and I'm excited to set the stage and I think you've already covered a wide range of topics that are important to this discussion. I just want to elaborate on some points that were actually raised and then move on to your question, um, so again, I think what's very important is that many companies have set more net goals in the insurance sector. In the world, the asset management side and the investment side or the institutional investor side have already been a little bit earlier establishing the methodologies to measure insurance investments and what we are seeing here is really the underwriting site insurance and I think, therefore, this is the job that it is.
What a group of 16 companies within pcuff are currently doing is very important as a basis for how to measure but also ultimately how to report on insurance. The associated emissions, as mentioned in decarbonization insurance, play a role on both sides, from the institutional investor role and from an underwriting function and with a much smaller footprint in operations as a service company, but that is However, also the third element of any insurance company now, when we look at what is covered by the peak standard that is scheduled to come out during November. It's actually a business related to commercial insurance, so these include property, but also certain special types of lines of business and personal motor, so it's really how to find the best emissions data, which is a discipline in rapid development.
I would say there are many. There are many that already have good databases, including the pcuff database here and then how do you attribute that to each individual insurance contract? So what does that mean for a company like Swiss Stream for which we have already started reporting with carbon intensities? which is based on the Cro Forum methodology that was established a couple of years ago to get an idea of ​​where there are certain critical points in our portfolio, that is, on both sides, emission points, but also where we can see that we already have a considerable part of the low carbon technology portfolio now with the new methodologies that are being developed here and the change also is that there are absolute emissions that we are trying to calculate with this approach and I think the main challenges at the moment remain true data gaps, but it is exactly the time to start establishing this discipline on the mission side.
I think that depends on how you attribute it. We are very confident in this approach coming out in November. We have good ways of measuring it because it's within the insurance companies that data or it's relatively widely available, so we need to look at it as a journey, first measuring and then eventually starting to report that internally and at some point probably also externally this data will be developed. even more so, but that helps us establish a baseline to build on later also certain goals that we see along the decarbonization path, so these are a couple of failures on how this is important for a company like ours, but let me reflect a little more on this. the insurance business line, so we really need to think about if we have a project or a company that we deal with on an insurance contract, how do we account for that?
And I think I want to build on some of what Tril said earlier. It's very important to think carefully, um, is it a financial property that is on the investment side or are we basically a risk bearer, so we don't have an insurance contract, a property, um, but we have a way of how we call to that in the document that many of you have seen also in the draft document on the progress report that followed the risk principle, so it is really where the risks are covered and what are the related emissions. I want to leave it.
We will get to this eventually after measuring and reporting to set goals and think about how we can follow certain paths of decarbonization of the real economy and support them and support companies in their transition as well, that is the next step, but that is beyond Pica , we will hear more. from Nate and Sherry on that, thanks Martin Martin. I wanted to follow up with um for you to comment on how to get us into the daily life of an insurer or reinsurance, right and right, really the core is.Where is the rubber? hits the road in insurance, where this is really the process of evaluating the definition and pricing of insurance risks, in that classic sense of climate action in adaptation resilience, so another writer would evaluate whether there is a danger climate-related, for example, against exposure and vulnerability, and then it could lead. to an underwriting decision, then you know how this vulnerability to hazard exposure could lead to a weather-related loss that could be insured, uh, or not, so I just wanted to highlight what this accounting standard means.
Does this mean then that it will fundamentally change the information that insurers ask customers to basically ask for carbon information and then evaluate whether it's now an additional layer of information basically for insurers to really understand how they can phase and drive the next transition

zero

, so yes, you just talked about the physical risks on climate change, so there is the danger, the vulnerability, then there are the terms and conditions that are important, so an insurer gets, for example, from a large real economy company all the data about its location around the world and needs to judge what the exposures are to any physical risks, so from storms, floods, droughts, etc., and there you have it.
Very directly, you will see in a Map the established location, what we are looking for here in emissions associated with insurance, so it will be absolutely something new: many companies will be asked about their portfolio emissions data wherever they perform production and value processes. chains and that will definitely start now with this form of measurement, so from the company to the insurance company to the reinsurance company the construction should be a transmission of that data, but it will not be immediately like on the On the risk side physical, there is a very strict underwriting process. The first thing I think will happen now is that every company in the insurance world will want to start establishing a baseline to get a sense of their portfolio on how a mission is escalating or on absolute emissions. portfolio you have and then think about what the relationship is to the risk landscape and then start thinking about underwriting, but I see it as a bit of a journey, but what will start immediately is the search for emissions data as an information layer additional. which is important for underground writing.
I think thank you very much, Martin, so this is really changing the fundamental thinking and practice of insurance, it's basically something new. And thanks for expressing that, Martin, so let's dive into the discussion, what we just discussed. Accounting is measuring emissions and then associating it with insurance policies and contracts so insurers can determine their fair share of emissions. That's just accounting and that's a solid basis for insurers to actually set targets that will then lead to the carbonization of their portfolios and then the theory of change is that the carbonization of the Insurance Authority's portfolios would lead to the carbonization of the real economy, so let's dig into our alphabet soup and the next acronym we're going to tackle is this sdti after pcaf. and svti stands for science based targeting initiative yes tcaf is essentially the standard setter on financial emissions accounting and now Insurance Associated next missions spti is a standard setter on corporate emissions and also on target sorry , goal setting for corporations and also financial institutions in a nutshell, but I let Nate Aiden, the financial sector, lead spti, further explain the work of sppi and the link to Insurance, Nate, thank you very much Butch, thanks for invite me here today, so a little bit of context, um on spti and then I'll explain some of the points above, so the spt initiative was started in 2015, as you said, Butch, to support the private sector's mitigation ambition, It's a collaboration between the World Resources Institute WWF CDP and the United Nations Global Compact and, um, we're leveraging the greenhouse gas protocol and the work of the PCAF that you mentioned, to set emissions reduction targets and As such, we have always recognized that financial institutions, including insurance companies, have a very important and central role in the broader low-carbon transformation that we are pursuing. here, that's why we started a process of developing scope 3 goal setting methods for financial institutions back in 2018, we launched a framework in October 2020 that includes three goal setting methods, the first is the physical intensity method which we call sectoral decarbonization approach or SDA and which links particular types of investment or loans with particular sectors, for example, the financing of electricity generation projects is linked to the physical intensity Pathways in terms of grams of CO2 equivalent per kilowatt hour of electricity generated.
The second method is split portfolio coverage and it is the idea that financial institutions can more effectively support climate stabilization through the engagement of their investee companies and their clients, so the idea is that engage with them in a way that covers their entire portfolio by 2040 and then the third is a little bit broader to say what they engage with. their clients, but do not have to have target-based science initiative targets, they can have broader quantitative emissions reduction targets which are then assigned a temperature rating which is then added to the institution's total portfolio So these are the three methods that we included in the 2020 framework, we have a number of insurance and reinsurance companies that are using these methods to set short-term objectives in their investment activities, as Martin mentioned, there is this distinction between the different sides of the balance sheet that we do not include. liability side of the balance sheet in our 2020 framework because the methods and data were not there yet pcapp had not yet developed um the uh the methods here for insurance Associated emissions uh the Cro Forum had just started the work that Martin mentioned, but Okay , wasn't ready yet, so it's very much been an iterative process and we're now very excited to be moving more towards insurance companies and, in particular, the liabilities side of the balance sheet with the new data. new methods you'll mention, so we're happy to partner with NetZero Insurance Alliance to develop goal setting methods around insurance underwriting.
It's clearly an important lever for the broader transition towards climate stabilization and you know just clarify and refer to your last question is Butch historically, for obvious reasons, the insurance sector has focused on risk and that's what you know in what insurance specializes in and obviously there are huge climate risks for insurance companies here in terms of liabilities, but what the spt initiative is focused on is impact. of financial institutions and insurance companies on the climate, so you can think of it as sort of two interconnected causal arrows, where one is the impact of the climate on financial and insurance companies, which historically has been a focus of attention, and then there is this equally important arrow of the impact of financial institutions and insurance companies on climate outcomes and that is what we are trying to address here with these frameworks, methods and criteria.
Thank you very much Nate for those ideas and I know it's an emerging space on goal setting for financial institutions for investments and loans and here we come with a new concept in net series insurance and that insurance is now basically becoming a hollow feeling which, you know, has been around for a while, maybe Nate, the same question I ask here in terms of an analogy with Peak at given that svti has already worked for several years in relation to loans and investments, so what are the key ideas that you have learned along the way in that process of interacting with financial institutions and what Do you think there are similarities and challenges when we assimilate a large part of the portfolio, which is insurance underwriting portfolios, across the goal setting space?
Thanks Butch. I would say the fundamental challenge here is that insurance companies and other financial institutions have traditionally traded on economic metrics and that's kind of their raison d'être and this is a set of metrics and ways of looking at the world of gas emissions. greenhouse gases, often linked but orthogonal, that were not traditionally tracked by financial institutions and thus the work being done by pcaf and others. Getting this data together is essential as a first step, but simply thinking in terms of how financial institutions actually affect climate outcomes is still very new for many stakeholders, and that's why we've started with a sort of very regimented, tangible process. . where we focus on a particular subset of asset classes that have more tangible connections between the activities of the financial institution and the real economy emissions reductions and outcomes that you mentioned, so this is an iterative process and, as you say in its title, it is

evolving

.

tools

and methods and therefore we are gradually expanding so that the distinction between financing and facilitated emissions that ptap is making, that stub mentioned is key, one more is moving from those emissions-based metrics and targets to non-emissions-based metrics and targets that This is something that many financial institutions and stakeholders are looking for, especially when it comes to climate solutions and green investments, so this is a rapidly

evolving

area in terms of various taxonomies and approaches to defining solutions, so I think there are numerous There are challenges here, but you know, from our perspective, in the spt initiative we base it on accounting and consistency of data, quantitative methods, transparency throughout the process and We build where we can and work with a diverse group of stakeholders, including target-setting entities. themselves to develop new methods and establish them in terms of their feasibility and credibility, both from the climatic and scientific point of view, but also from the practical and industry point of view.
Thank you very much, Nate, so let's move on to our last feature, we have shared real packages. from AXA and Sherry is the head of group risk management, climate and sustainability property and casualty at the AXA group, one of the oldest titles I know of and she's also the senior NetZero project manager uh in access, so it's great to hear it has sherry in it. because Nate just explained the work of the SBTI, the different types of methods that they're looking to analyze, uh, financial portfolios and now insurance portfolios, in terms of how they impact climate outcomes, um, and let's narrow it down to a global insurer like AXA on what This practically means Sherry, what are the kind of levers that access and the insurer can really pull on the insurance side of the house to really decarbonize their portfolio with a vision of the real economy carbonized and then it becomes the basis for the objectives that you can set as a company correctly, so we have already done the measurement part and we are investigating now that once you have the information, what are the levers for an insurance company as an insurer to really drive carbonization in line with next year's path, yes, but I think it fundamentally goes back to your mention of the theory of change, which is why we published the nzaa in April, as you remember, we published our white paper and we described the theory in it of change related to the insurance industry and reducing carbon emissions associated with underwriting portfolios and all the levers that you are asking about and I am pleased to see that many insurers and especially entities of the various global entities are already applying many of those levers and so this initiative was not necessary to stimulate that action to implement those policies abroad.
We just lost Sherry, oh, we lost her, yeah, we lost Sherry, so maybe I mean, since we have another risk carrier here, Martin, will you? to just jump in and maybe add something to um I know you were, yeah, okay, now Sherry's back, sorry Sherry, we lost you for a moment there for about 30 seconds, okay, I think we lost her again, Hey, Martin, do you want to just get in on that? and maybe add a dimension to how you know what insurers and reinsurance can do to the car to help carbonization. Okay, I think Sherry, sorry, is back.
I was going to Martin will cover you, but yeah, I thinkus. I can hear you right now, Sherry, go ahead, Sherry, so I'm not sure where it got cut off, but I could mention some of the different actions that we've taken in terms of the levers, the first one that you know of from The Theory of Change Concept , of course, revolves around establishing different underwriting guidelines and guidelines. Many insurer laws include policies related to oil and gas activities and coal activities, but that is not the only route or the type of primary focus that we really want.
Being supporting the transition, so the second lever is around engagement, how do we identify customers who need support with transition efforts? How do we advise them on the particular risks they might face? Because that's our wheelhouse as insurers and we talk to them about solutions to help. them through their transitions as new risks arise for them and there is the development of new products and solutions that support the transition. Now it could be something completely new. Parametric solutions or it could be repurposing our old insurance products in new ways to support those new ones. The technologies and processes appear and then we talk about claims.
Complaints are such an important element. You know, sometimes we talk about claims, it's the product for an insurer and there's a lot we can do on the claims side in terms of how we have our claims that the processes are more sustainable using remanufactured parts in retail engines, an example and it's something that AXA does quite well in some countries and we can also rebuild in a way that is a more sustainable solution once an incident or something happens. So we can definitely apply these principles throughout the entire insurance process. If you multiply all those levers into an insurance transaction and an insurance portfolio, then the theory of change is that you will help decarbonize the real economy and they can also be like bases for setting goals for what you want to do within an insurance company, Can we focus on two of those?
I mean, I think the opt-in criteria is pretty straightforward, you know you've had policies on cold fuels and fossil fuels, but then let's say about commitment, right? That lever in the investment is quite mature, a participation of the shareholders, active ownership in the insurers, since the investors get involved with the investee companies, right? ensure that the engagement looks like it does in practice, right? um and the other is that you know it's very easy to say that your financial transition guarantees the transition, but let's say what are renewable energies or nature-based energy solutions or energy efficiency measures, but this does not come without risks, these are new risks, new technologies present new risks in themselves, so there are challenges associated with that as well, can you expand on that a little bit? um thinking about sharing, yeah, so first one on Commitment, so one of the key differences that we've talked about is the difference between looking at this from the investment angle versus the insurance angle, but it's different talking to investors. institutional than with retail insurance clients, for example, so the types of commitment will vary.
Across the spectrum of customer types that insurers have, we will engage in a similar way to investments when we talk to our large commercial customers, but when we start to move down to the mid-market, SME and retail customer engagement will be different. A lot of the engagement will be education, you know, just education about the carbon emissions associated with your activities, it could be education about measures that they can take abroad again. I think she was trying to expand a little bit on education and how engagement worked in practice. for an insurance company. I know we have six minutes left, so I just wanted to make you give people a chance, Sherry, we lost you if you can't finish in a minute.
I know you were trying to advance the commitment and then secure nutrition, but I'll give you a minute or two and then we'll have a now it's very short, yeah, the risks. I am ensuring the transition and I think that is a recognition that all insurers are aware of, but this is not new for insurers. You know this is why you are in the insurance business and this is what they do. I really think this is going to spur innovation in the insurance industry. It's going to stimulate a wave of stares. In terms of data and data capture, we had Martin talking about that, but in a different way, you know, so that we can better understand these risks up front, so that we can underwrite them better and profitability is not a concern. , so.
I think it's manageable, definitely thanks Sherry and I know it's a very quick session. 45 minutes. Take it as a lightning session. To start thinking about how met metrics and goal setting are important in a net

zero

context for insurance portfolios. And we can have a discussion after the roundtable if you have questions about it, but I want to have a final round with our speakers and closing statements from them about what they think are the important elements as we do it. This work must come together so that insurance can truly be an accelerator for Net Zero.
What are the things you think need to happen? They need to happen and you can mention a wish you have so we can do it, because we already are. Living in a world with many impacts on climate change, we are simply trying to avoid catastrophic climate change, so there has to be urgent urgency in this, so what are the things we can do to really accelerate the role of insurance? ? on the natural transition and why don't we go the other way and start with Sherry, so I think the most important thing is just for me. I just talked about commitment and really starting to think about that commitment process and what you're doing.
We're going to do things that feel very qualitative versus quantitative in nature and what that means, but to me it's the most important element of this. If we simply move away from customers who have carbon emissions associated with their activities, then we won't do it. really benefit or do something, and that's something that I would say is important to understand, start with um and take some very clear action, why don't we go to your peer venture company, Swiss Street Martin? Yes, it's not a surprise. but I totally agree with Sherry here. I think it's a commitment and it's all about commitment to direct customers but also across value chains, which is important because sometimes an industry realizes that we can't or that we don't have all the solutions, but across value chains, you realize that, so it's a commitment, but it's also combined with very clear climate actions that each individual company needs to take and the second one, let me do a second one because the first one is very similar to Sherry , it's really a massive data effort that we need. to get to similar transparency in emissions-related data as we have with financial data, okay, data sounds like a good transition to healing, yes, thank you very much, yes, I would say two things, actually, in the future, I believe that collaboration is key, collaboration between financial institutions. and collaboration within your organization, as mentioned, it invests well in companies through its institutional investors side and could also insure the same company, so both sides of an insurance company should collaborate and share the data they have and I think some too in some way.
Cases like if we look at personal mode or insurance companies have more information than banks when they have a car or vehicle loan, so I think also across the industry trying to get collaboration on data challenges I think it's key and that's also what it is. at the heart of pcaf, since we're into industry-wide collaboration, so collaboration I think is key to driving data improvements on the Honda side. I think it's also transparency and this is just to start, we're launching this first set of methods. and we should also be transparent about it's just the initial approach and we try to improve it over time and we should be transparent about the data challenges that we have and we should also be transparent about the challenges that we face, but it's all about being transparent . be vulnerable by showing that you are doing the best you can but that you are also open to receiving feedback from the outside world to improve your performance.
Thank you so much Hill and Nate and I know you have some good news to say at the end too. Last but not least thank you butch so I would say we are definitely in a transition period of accelerated transition and impacts so there is a huge implication and role for the insurance sector right now so You know, I think. The things I would point out here are leadership and innovation. Going back to Sherry's comments in terms of this is an opportunity for innovation among the leading companies here, and what we really need is some proof of concept because no one has all the answers.
Oh, and as companies go out and do this, some good news is that the Climate Arc Foundation has agreed to fund the development of some new method in space. We look forward to working with everyone here on those new methods. Thank you very much for that. and good news Nate, so spti will be working with the Net series Alliance on this and thanks to Climate Art for that funding to really push the insurance work and goal setting methods forward. I know we're right on time, Mustafa and Ella, my The code is: if you just can't allow me 20 SEC 30 seconds, please, I just want a quick yes or no from the panelists on my last question, are the regulators and supervisors of Insurance play a role in the Net Zero transition?
Hill, yes or no, yes, Nate Central. yes, Sherry, yes, Martin, yes, definitely, but in a meaningful way, okay, we haven't, we should have another session on that, but thank you all so much, 45 minutes, huge topic. A new concept of Net Zero insurance, but by the end of this year we will have a standard for next year. They should be a target setting protocol for insurers there and the natural line, so there's a lot to look forward to in the coming weeks and months, so stay tuned and watch this space. thank you very much everyone thank you

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