Sound Advice S2 Ep 16 w/Emma Gannon: Finding success on your own terms

foreigner was at the top of her game multiple best-selling books a brilliant portfolio a career a pioneering podcast and conferences that took her around the world from the outside she had it all but inside she felt confused and unhappy Emma discovered that the The problem could be the how we view

success

as a society. She has even written a book about it. The myth of

success

in this episode of Sound Advice for unfiltered entrepreneurs. Emma shares her journey from burnout to a better relationship with work and how we can stop this endless search. for more Emma, ​​welcome to the show, thank you so much for inviting me to be a pleasure, Emma, ​​I first met you in 2018 when I was interviewing you for the Telegraph and I remember we had so much in common it was strange, We both went to the same university, we both did the same degree in English literature and we both ended up working in the media.

I know it's crazy because so many things happened that year that I talk about in my book, it's like the year that I sort of put a lot of my story into. So I love that I met you that year, it was fun and that was also the year that you just brought out the multi-hyphenate method, so at that time you were a blogger, author, speaker, podcaster, digital consultant and it seemed that you had this I dreamed of a multi-hyphenate career, um, so what led up to

your

burnout episode last year? Basically, 2018 was probably one of the best times of my career on paper, it was when the book, The Multi-Hyphen Method, came out, which looking back, I'm very proud of that book.

She was 28 years old and basically said that she didn't want to work like everyone else. I quit my job and basically did a lot of my side hustles at my full-time job so I had like multiple streams of income and I wanted to talk about being a multi-hyphenate person in the world and it was a really exciting year, but from the outside it looked like that everything was organized like you said, you know it was really brilliant. I met the queen that year. I made the Forbes 30 Under 30 list that year, the book was a crazy Sunday Times bestseller that year, and it was also one of the unhappiest years I've ever had, where I felt so out of alignment with who I was.

I'm and I'm really, really lost and really, really sad, and I really wanted to write about it because we heard it a lot and we heard people say, oh yeah, everything looked great on Instagram, but inside it was horrible, but I wanted to write a book. and I really liked it. I come into this topic because I felt that if I wasn't going to do it, who would? Because we're living a kind of lie and I don't think that's helpful. How did you stop living the LIE? It was the kind of breaking point or moment where you said this actually doesn't feel right.

I think being 20 too because I'm going to be 34 this year, so I think that's quite a bit of growth and a lot of it happens in those years, but I think you know what I write about in the book and by the way, it's not about me. . This book is very broad. I don't think anyone wants to hear like 80,000 words of just me complaining about this. Um, it's also based on about 400 interviews I've done with people over the last seven years, but it was essentially an addiction to success, it was like an addiction to that high I got when other people said I was doing well.

It was external validation that I think many of us can relate to. Do you know someone who said? Wow, look what you're doing, it must be amazing. So I kept chasing until I broke down and in

your

question, when you mentioned burnout, essentially I got to the point where I don't know, I think there's something in life where you can't choose anymore and there's something out there that says that there's no more of this, like getting back to who you really are and why did you start doing this in the first place, so how did you get back to who you really are and separate that external validation that you were getting from how you were feeling? inside?

You know, it

sound

s cheesy, but I actually write about this quite a bit in my previous works about not losing that childhood self. because essentially we are all that person inside, on a really basic level, like all the things that I love now, it's what I, at 11 years old, love, like I'm in an office full of books and most of the those books are probably still like Jacqueline Wilson's children's books um, I'm wearing a really bright sweater, I'm wearing big glasses, I obviously used to wear glasses in school and I was a bit of a geek and I have posters on my wall that remind me of things that I liked them when I was younger.

I really feel like that side if you lose it can get pretty dark. I think adult life is very difficult and that's why there is joy, color and vitality, and playing, taking care of a dog and watching movies like these. It's all the things that really make a good life, not just the outward appearance of being really successful, so, yeah, I would say it was looking back and saying, "Oh my gosh, when was the last time I saw a friend?" ? When was the last time I remembered someone's birthday, when was the last time I laughed like two or three years had passed where I was apparently doing very well, but yeah, I wasn't happy at all. , since you almost had to strip away everything and go back to the roots of your childhood?

Find the things that brought you joy and what were some of the steps that you took in that kind of process to quit smoking Yes, a lot of that was. quitting smoking and in fact this is also a kind of taboo that I feel in our modern culture of always adding things, always wanting more and wanting more and better, you know, now we can have a lot at our fingertips, but actually. It was an exercise in leaving less things, less things to do, um, less on my to-do list and making peace. I guess getting to the end of the day and saying, Oh, I didn't do much today, but I actually had done a lot of things, I just hadn't done a million things that were exhausting me.

Actually, there's a phrase that I talk about in the book that was coined by Anna Pedriaado, who wrote about productivity dysmorphia, this idea that it's like a dysmorphia, the idea that we have with our own success, as if we were all doing amazing things, we just don't even take a second to think about it, right? I think social media and this kind of information age is fueling that because we're always looking for more things online, right? And it's really a distraction and there's like a French philosopher who once said about how we earn what other people want us to just go through life.

I think I really want that because that person seems really happy with it, but what we don't realize is that that's not our version of success. For example, I don't want to live in the country. For example, for someone else that must be amazing to me, it's like being in a pretty busy environment and going for a coffee, that's something that makes me happy and I think we're in this strange time and we've been for so long with Instagram where something visual can be very confusing when it looks so appealing but we don't actually sit down and decide if we really want it or if we think we should, it's like all these things that we constantly see give us this permanent fear of missing out on everything. time um I'm curious how you went about reprioritizing your time because obviously the multi-hyphenate method is about adding more strings to your bow and doing a lot of different things so how did you start that process of taking it away? back and obviously what were the financial pressures on you as well because it's all very well to say you know, take a step back, take three months, six months off, but you know a lot of people have bills to pay, so how did that balance work? ?

Yeah, it's funny because I wouldn't really say that the multi-hyphenation method was the problem because for me that was my savior. I had multiple streams of income, so I was able to take four months off because I have passive income and I have businesses that don't really do that. You need it to be there constantly, it's quite different if you're just a freelancer, where it's like your time is your own, whereas I had built things that could move without me, but I also had a rule with the multiple method that I think I wrote in the book that was like one on one, like it's not a busy nightclub, it's like you can't get in, like we already have enough stuff here, um, so I was always very strict about that and I think this one It is a misconception, in reality my participation was not due to being busy.

I am not a very busy person. I don't actually work incessantly and I didn't before my burnout. The reason was that I was so out of alignment with what essentially makes me happy and what makes me a creative person, um, that's what burned me out and actually, I think it's been coined recently, it's called existential exhaustion, in the that you're basically so far from your values ​​that your values ​​have. I went out the window um and you know my values ​​are doing the things that I like well to make a living so it was my ultimate goal is to get paid to write um and I'm doing that and the fact that I felt like that wasn't It was. enough and I had to do a million more things to please other people, that's what wore me out, it was the people pleasing more than anything, um, so yeah, that's a really good question about taking some time.

I think it's a very important discussion because I think this is going to be an epidemic. I think more and more people are going to burn out, so I don't have the answers to a big question like that, but I think it's the leaders and the companies and the people that need to do it. Be prepared to treat each other like human beings and be like you know what happens if you are going to burn out. We need to set up some kind of system where people can have more breaks and for people who feel really stuck in their careers and burnt out. out and unhappy what is the quickest way or what are your practical tips for getting unstuck the quickest way is not going to be the best this is not something that happens overnight.

Actually you know, I write in my book that I'm pretty allergic to any quick fixes and I think that's why we get into these models because we don't take the time to spend a long period of time and do really little things to help ourselves, like that. That's what I would say. Really, you know, approaching anything with the intention of just getting it done is very stressful. I even think that the novels I write are a very slow process. I've been working on the one I'm working on now for three years. um, but if I woke up one morning and said I just want to do it, I'd probably burn myself out again, so I actually have a turtle on my desk that reminds me of this, like turtle steps, like baby steps, um, so I would say that I know my

advice

to anyone who wants to, you know, maybe the quickest way, actually, to take it easy in the long run, do some really small things every day, whether it's like journaling in the morning, whether it's saying no to a friend who is stressed.

He asks if you know, I don't know, how to get up half an hour early and have a cup of tea in silence. The more space you create for yourself every day, even if it's small, can go a long way. I love doing Turtle steps. And how did you go about reprioritizing your day? Did you take that extra half hour for a cup of tea? Did you change the times you wrote your book? Do you know what he did? What are some small steps you took well during? exhaustion I didn't really have a choice, it was really scary and it was really horrible and I don't know if anyone who listened to me has gone through that, but I don't even know if exhaustion is the right word, it's kind of like you.

It's like you can't really function the same, it's really scary because when you're in that situation you're not sure you're going to go back to normal and if you're that limited, your whole life has changed. In fact, a lot of people reached out when I wrote about it because, honestly, I wrote about it at the time, once I was through the worst of it. People I had covered for a long time came up to me and said. This really speaks to me because chronic fatigue and, you know, even people with ADHD or this feeling of massive overwhelmingness of the world right now because it's so scary and there's so much going on, you know, that essentially applies to me.

Like I didn't choose to have three months off, this was a point where I had to do it, so I feel very, very fortunate that I was able to do it in an easy way, but what I learned essentially was, again, the little things are really. Importantly, I went for a walk every day, I called a friend and told him that instead of sending him a WhatsApp, I went swimming. I hadn't swam since I was 10 years old. I actually went out first thing in the morning just to get some fresh air. These are really very simple things and something that I also wrote about in my previous book offline, which was more about getting back in touch with yourself and taking some time offline, and it's quite, I find it quite funny in the way that that we are. this world where we have everything at our fingertips andStill we are discussing with friends the best way to go for a walk and have a cup of tea and sunbathe on your face it's like we're going back to basics because you were In that dark place, did you find it difficult to even get up from the bed, leave your house and go out?

How difficult was it to do it? Do you know what was funny? Because I feel like I know a lot about this. I did a life coach training course in the last few years. I've been doing that and when I was in it I knew what was happening and I feel very, very privileged because I think some people would stay in bed for three days not being able to do anything and think, oh my God, what's wrong with me? when I knew nothing was wrong with me. Actually, I think it's very normal for humans to be like, oh my gosh, I need a break.

I think the fact that we're in this culture that we're in, then you know you don't need to rest and I know so many people in my life who can't sit for five minutes because they think you're being lazy, so the biggest challenge for For me it was really learning to rest, learning to rest again and really resting like lying in bed for a day when you're so exhausted that you need it and you talked about getting back to your values. and the things that were really important to you again, how did you go through that process?

Were there any particular books you read or podcasts you listened to? How did you figure out what your values ​​are and then what steps you should take after that? A book that I loved was The Way of Integrity by Martha Beck, which came out, I think maybe last year, the year before, um, but it's amazing in this values ​​thing, it's essentially a book about how to live in integrity, essentially, so show up as the person that you are and be honest, she talks a lot about how she used to lie a lot and I really resonate with that because I know that if a friend tells you that you want to come to this party and you're like oh, it actually hurts my stomach or there is nothing like that now it's like no, I don't want to regret it and I think that getting older is being so honest in a nice way, in a kind way. but to be honest, it is an amazing book if you want to get back to your values ​​because there is a lot of research on honesty and health, if we live honestly and tell the truth at all times, we will essentially be healthier and happier.

You also had to have some awkward conversations with clients while eliminating some of those projects that weren't making you happy. I wouldn't say they were uncomfortable. I think people really respected him. That was the most surprising thing about all of this. it's when you set boundaries and you say no and you say, I'm so sorry, I don't want to work together anymore because of X Y and Z and you know it's up to me, so it's because of me that I'm making changes. really understanding and I think we underestimate how understanding people are when you tell someone: no, I'm not in a position to be able to do that.

I'm so sorry, they'll say it's fine most of the time. Do you think side hustle has become a dirty word now? Do you think we are pushing ourselves towards a mental crisis? No, I love side hustles. I think they are amazing. I think they are the personal reason I have joy. my life on the side with a side hustle in the UK, okay, maybe the word has become a bit gross, maybe it's a side project. I've always enjoyed the side project more than the hustle, um, but coming home after a day of being mentally bored and then doing some passion. side project um has always been amazing to me.

I think it's really the context and it's Nuance, it's like you know you wouldn't say gym is a bad word just because someone, if someone makes you go to the gym, it's like I don't want to do that, but if you love going to the gym, it's a big thing, so I think it's the way you put it in your life, um, it's not really the thing itself, if that makes sense, yeah, it's also in the language, no. It's because the side hustle invokes stress and pressure and being constantly on the go, whereas the passion project, as you put it, is about doing something you love and enjoying it and getting satisfaction and joy from it, yes, over and over again, come back to it. what should.

I write a There's a lot about that in the book about shoulds, do you feel like you should have a side job? So, it's probably not great if you feel like you want to have one that's very different. Did you have a bit of an identity crisis when you were going through it? this cleansing process because a lot of it was related to your job and what you do and what success was about yeah definitely I think we go through identity changes all the time and you know I haven't had kids but yeah my friends. My friends are practically having kids now that they're going through massive identity changes, so I think this is just me as someone who probably won't have kids and my career is a huge part of my life.

I hope to be able to write books until I'm very old, so I think it's like going through an identity change. Within that context, but again I think it's the most natural normal thing in the world and when you really realize how many times we change in our lives. I'm probably going to go through this again, so I'm really glad I went through this once because I can go through this again. We're always iterating, always evolving and we never stay the same and once you realize that, I think. you like it, you don't beat yourself up anymore because you're like, oh, I'm going through a huge change, here we go again and with that, um, your identity, did you find out that you were being judged for your decision not to have children?

Well, because I wrote the novel about it and I did a lot of interviews about it and I've been pretty honest about it. I think it was just great. I think people really understood and what's actually amazing about the kid-free conversation. I knew I would meet other women without children, that was amazing. I love the community, but I've actually felt closer to my friends with kids through it because we talk about things so openly and bridge that gap and me. it can play a role in your life that is slightly different and yes, it has been one of the most positive things I have ever done.

What are you working on at the moment? Emma and you know, if someone said to you at a dinner party, what? How would you define yourself well? I would say I'm a writer and I'd probably leave it there because that covers all the different aspects because I'm working on a lot of different things, but I guess that's the easiest answer. um and something that I'm working on right now that I love is my side newsletter. It's completely revitalized me, it's amazing and going back to childhood is literally what I've always loved, but now in 2023 it's um essentially. writing for fun with other people that's why I started blogging in 2009 that's why I used to type up little letters when I was younger it's the same thing I've always loved doing but now, which is in the form of a newsletter online it's called sub stack, you basically pay six quid a month to get all my writing and what was surprising during the burnout thing is that I only wrote for my community on substack.

I wasn't saying here's my deepest, darkest story about burnout for everyone to read. I wanted it to be for my readers, for the people who would really get a lot out of it, so that's what excites me about the Internet right now: you can write for a community again and it doesn't have to be just everywhere online to that everyone can read, yes, and how are you building and nurturing that subset? Community. Well, I've had it for a year and it's been growing super fast. It's really very exciting and again there is a community in the substack where there are other writers. so they recommend each other, so it's a very natural organic growth.

I'm not really interested in tricks or tips or gross stuff or, you know, scamming people into signing up, it's like I'm going in the other direction, which is slow. growth, I love it, I really enjoy it, it's interesting that you talk about slow growth because in many ways it's the opposite of corporate culture, which is all about quick returns and income, so I love how you almost turn it on its head to that. and promote slow growth and snail's paces exactly and the really funny thing about this is that it's an irony that I have a thriving business from only a handful of people who actually pay me every month.

You don't need a million people on Instagram to win. six figures um you really need to serve your people and they will come looking for you and they will tell their friends and it really is about being authentic and I know that word is overused but if you are truly authentic your business will survive and many companies as we know them are changing because they just go with the wind and they don't know who they are and what do you think people can do to try to change their way of thinking and stop this constant search for more, more, and this is difficult, by the way, it is as a simple answer, but it's actually very difficult.

Take some time to really sit with where you are. There are so many distractions now and I know what that feels like because were there two where you can get distracted from anything? There are, you know, God knows, how many Netflix, Amazon, Apple, like, how many there are now, I'm like losing count, um, and obviously, so many ways to consume ourselves without thinking about where we are, but really just taking a look honest, whether it's journaling or a really honest conversation with a friend or if you need to talk to someone in a more therapeutic space, um yeah, and just look at things in the Eye and from there you have a therapist Emma I don't, I have a life coach who I adore and it's really amazing because it's a space where they listen to you essentially, um, you solve your own problems by the end of the call, but it's just someone who's there and asks you good questions and did you turn to a life coach after burnout episode or do you know what prompted you to get one?

In fact, I got one during the pandemic in 2020 when I had a lot of time to think and I have to say that this book came from looking at the pandemic and looking at where we are going after the pandemic, the great resignation, the fact that we had a lot of time to think . we, a lot of people had a pause, a lot of people obviously didn't, but I think we're completely different people now than we were after the pandemic, so yeah, that was my little catalyst to get one so what. These are some of the questions you ask your life coach.

I don't really ask them questions, it's more of a conversation, you bring something to the table and they just listen, reflect what you're saying. you feel really heard and really understood, they prompt you or they ask you, they ask you the questions and you solve them, so it's amazing and it also goes against the culture of

advice

, which is something I talk about in the book and I'm really against it. constantly asking other people for advice because I don't think anyone has the answers to your life. I think it can be very dangerous when people give advice out of the blue and it's something I don't really do at events anymore. "I will never just give advice because I don't know the person well enough and in fact it's interesting that you say the conversation is very thoughtful and often it's just you talking, it's almost like you already have the answers to your questions".

We are already inside you but it's just about trusting your instinct. Yes, I think we do everything. We will have the answers within us, like all of us, that's why it's so painful when we mess up a little bit because we know, I think we know. Deep down like, oh God, I haven't listened again because I had so many warning signs of burnout. This was not out of nowhere. They were like little pushes that I ignored. So I would say that's another thing, if you're receiving. a little push like oh, this isn't right, this isn't right and you feel like you're really pushing up, which is kind of a signal to slow it down and ease it up a little bit and just try and try something new. things, what were some of those pushes, was it that kind of no in your stomach, was it saying yes to projects where you should have said no, what were the signs, was it all that and it was very physical on my body, which is another thing that I wrote it's very physical and that's another thing.

I don't think many of us really pay attention to you. It's so in the mind and obviously, like I'm a writer, I can sit for hours and hours with just me. head, so learning the physical symptoms was everything and now I can really adjust them even to getting an email from someone I already know, it feels a little strange, I don't want to do that or you know if it's a work thing. you have to do because obviously we have to do things sometimes, um or at least for a paid job, you know, you know, work is not fun all the time, obviously, um, but it's even being aware of it, so just knowing it, I feel a little.

The weird today is better than just numbing it and ignoring it and you talked about all these distractions we constantly have. How do you turn off all that noise? Do you have any particular rules that I don't know about? Put your phone in a drawer for three hours and don't look at emails or you knowWhat is your method? I used to try to do all those things and I felt like the harder I was on myself, the harder everything was. If I punished myself for not putting my phone away or treating it like another to-do list, it was like another thing to do, so be really kind to yourself, be really kind to yourself, say okay, we're on our phone a lot. . today let's not do that tomorrow and just be less intense, that really helped me, but also after the burnout, what was really fun in a way is that I was less interested in my phone and more interested in the outside world.

It was the hike it was so amazing and I was looking at things. I thought like God, it's a sunny day and I'm really enjoying this hike. I didn't need the podcast. I didn't need my phone, so I guess over time. You can adjust to just

finding

your phone, but it's not even that interesting, it's very interesting how the pandemic really changed the way we think about things. I remember going for a walk like you said and really appreciating nature and also having a takeaway coffee it was like a new high in the week, yes, exactly, and yes, that's really the message of the success myth, like you get straight to the end of the book, at the beginning I talk about what I thought success was in the end, I'm talking about what success really is and it's not really important things and it

sound

s very cliché and people have been writing this for hundreds of years, but A really good day is made up of pretty small things, so what does success look and feel like to you now?

I guess this is a pretty broad answer and I'm still figuring it out and I also think it's still changing, but for me success is a day, a week, a month or a year where I feel like I'm not giving up on myself. and I'm not essentially going against my own values, so yeah, it's about sticking to that integrity and of course we mess up and we make mistakes and we stumble and we do things wrong, you know that over and over again, but I think If I come close to that then it's a success Emma.

I loved chatting with you. I feel much calmer and more grounded just listening to your story. Thank you very much for sharing it with us. Thank you very much for inviting me. Be sure to pick up a copy of Emma's new book, The Myth of Success. You can also follow her on Instagram at Emma Gannon UK and in essence, thank you so much for listening, make sure to share this episode with your friends, family, colleagues, strangers and us. See you next week for more unfiltered foreign stories.