Podcast: Lässt sich der AfD-Erfolg anhand des Parteiprogramms erklären? | Lanz & Precht

Land and Brecht good morning Richard good morning Markus I hope you are well yes you are enjoying the summer I am enjoying the summer to the fullest Richard I wanted to talk to you about something so to speak make a part 2 I don't know how I have received an incredible number of reactions to our exchange on the subject of AFD? Yes, you feel the same way about me and what do people say? So what I hear most often is that people think it's good, that "we." We're treating the issue fairly, so we're trying to look at it from different sides, analyze it from different perspectives, that we're not treating it like a woodcut or a stencil, and I think that speaks to the hearts of a lot of people.

Regardless of whether you sympathize with the party or find it completely terrible, but can get along with a party that, according to polls, was elected by at least a fifth of the population, that doesn't make things easy for you, but that you address the phenomenon in its diversity and also in its contradictions. I think a lot of people liked it because they think that's what would otherwise be weird, so if you look at the polls, you'll understand where. This interest comes from the fact that at the moment they are at 21 percent nationally, that is one result, the other is only four points behind the Union, the Union is currently at 25.5%, remember?

Friedrich Merzig came to power with the promise that he will halve the AFD, the AFD will divide the CDU in half, exactly what Mr. Kropalla thinks of this, but even if it is not a halving , the exact fact is that the fact that Friedrich Merz, as a conservative CDU man knows, nothing has changed the The fact that the AFD continues to rise is exactly one point in Thuringia now because more than 30% and yesterday I spoke with someone about this in the reaction that was very interesting Show and she said she wouldn't, she wouldn't. Speaking of the AFD, she would not have given them a platform and would have also given them a very well-founded scientific basis.

A smart woman who said, you know, if you basically give these people a platform and it's complete. Whether you put them out there arguing or not, they always win in the end and I had to think of a well-known quote by Erik Kantonard, which of course you also know, that the great football players at Manchester United said exactly the right thing. thing, a big try before Should debating with racists is like playing chess with a pigeon yeah, no matter how good you are, in the end the pigeon will knock all the pieces off the board, poop on the board and strut around like that.

He has won yes and say the result in some way The mistake is to get into the game completely, yes, and I have thought about it a lot if the phrase of saying that the 21 percent that now say in the surveys Yes, they say they want to vote were correct by the AFD would be racist, then that would be true and I would be too. The lady you quote gives you the right, but it is a pretty harsh assumption to say that all AfD voters are racist, so we have 21 percent racists in this country and the trend is increasing.

I don't think it's a daring prosthesis, that's honest, she said her AFD is exactly that it doesn't work and otherwise it would be arguments that would give them a platform that they wouldn't have. It doesn't work anymore, so if I say they're Nazis, yes, or I say racists, then I understand that they can't be given a platform, but I understand that they can. But it is said that these are largely people who, for whatever reason, are dissatisfied with the government. politics or have an attitude that needs to be completely new to everyone or things can't go on as before and so on, not everyone has to be racist and if that's the case then I can't say not to talk to them because it's a constitutional state democratic, that doesn't fit.

I can't say we completely exclude a party unless it shows that it's actually just made up of Nazis and racists, but that's just bold speculation, to be honest. , that is nonsense, which is why accusing 21 percent of the population of this country of being racists, right-wing radicals and even Nazis. Yes, I find it very difficult and these days it has become clear to me how hard you have to work. , especially these days to be very precise with the language, I remember Jan Böhmermann's tweet in the direction of Sandra Maischberger, but it also has a lot of Nazi words and so on, and I think you were accused of giving a platform to the Nazis. word Nazis alone It's hard once you've been to Auschwitz Fun in Birkenau once, once you've talked to Holocaust survivors you'll never again flippantly say you're a Nazi because that trivializes everything Nazis really know about.

It's true. Yes, that is my point of view. Tino Krupala is not a Nazi, possibly he is right wing and far right in his opinion and he may also be a wolf in sheep's clothing so to speak, he comes from the skilled and kind master craftsman that comes from there. the bases that know exactly what he is talking about and have been put in people's place and maybe then he tells it like this on television and in interviews and you can't really understand it and in reality he is almost a pacifist because it is against this war in Ukraine and so on and that is not our war at all, what do we have to think about that and gentlemen, by the way, they also have something against, innocent people are dying all the time, yes, who would like to say something against That, of course, but it puts the crimes of the Third Reich into perspective, so that's the point if I go and say that 21 percent are the ones here.

If you vote for the AFD, everyone is a Nazi, then everyone who is slightly to the right of the Union becomes a Nazi. Exactly, and that would actually mean the good master craftsman and such who, for whatever reason, becomes AFD because he doesn't want to have wolves and he doesn't want to. 't Pinwheel I want to come back to that in a moment, there are a lot of things in the AFD party program that are a lot of 12-year-olds, so it's very funny for a long time, I didn't know, um, that I used the image of the wolf in the well, an above average role, no, but there are yes, many reasons why the party always votes and labeling all these people as Nazis is a common trivialization what a doctor is here this one That's exactly why Be careful with the language, so to speak, I have two things Richard.

I'd really like to do a thought experiment with you today and think about what would happen if someone came along now, someone who didn't speak obnoxiously. and, disgustingly, someone who is not speaking in a back room and then secretly recorded by someone and therefore condemned and who utters disgusting, racist, far-right slogans and disgusting things, but someone who is completely different, who is intelligent, who is friendly, who has a jovial appearance, who does not speak in an extreme way, who repeatedly speaks with common sense and who is not only in a very good mood rhetorically, but also gives something visually, yes, just as well used Jörg Haider does not look at someone because even after that he is very tanned, so it cannot be assumed that the tan will continue, so to speak, but also from a correct perspective, everything is conceivable and assuming that a man or a woman can do it . now slowly the road to the top goes further and further, first you become a minister somewhere, maybe in a state parliament, and then suddenly at some point you become prime minister, suddenly you are a candidate to chancellor, suddenly you become chancellor, what would happen then in this? country, how such a mischief could be done, so to speak, of the institutions, what would that be like, what would happen then, that is very interesting when you analyze it because there are countries that have a kind of plan for it, Hungarian and code word, but Poland exactly where you see, so to speak, how things go like this slowly, where it starts except Power exactly and maybe that's really what is happening, it gives you a chill at how easily it would work in what I believe is a very solid democracy and good as Germany's, but before doing so, Richard, I am told that you have examined the AFD's electoral programme.

I studied the AFD election program for three hours this morning, are you not serious? Somehow it says not only read, but also think, yes, it is the normal length of the party program, there is only a short version and a long version, okay, and there is a formal difference, it does not differ from the party programs of the other parties. , it doesn't even differ in some points of content from other things that are in other programs and I would say that of course there is nothing about hostile takeover in it, so of course it is not in the party program of the AFD.

It says that they want to restrict freedom of the press, that they want to abolish the separation of powers, etc. Democracy, in theory, contains the following ideas: you want democracy directly, originally a left-wing pirate party. A referendum on direct democracy according to the Swiss model is also something that has been discussed again and again in Germany for decades, regardless of whether one is right-wing or left-wing. The direct election of the federal president by the people is not a real demand. , something that has come up again and again. I thought for a long time myself whether it was a good or bad idea.

So the idea is democracy very briefly in parentheses, so the biggest disadvantage would be that the federal president has little. power, then elect someone directly from the people, organize a complete election to put in a position someone who actually has relatively little to say, even if it is formally, the highest in the state is somehow disappointing, so if you become him directly you should be able to tell me and not just be a replacement king or something, now we have elected him and that doesn't matter. The other point would be more important to me, well, and I have done it.

I have been saying this for a long time, when Wulff became president, I would very much like it not to be a professional politician who became federal president, but rather someone from civil society who had made a positive impression on society through his voluntary work. or other great achievements for society is simply someone who is a role model, exactly who is somewhat self-absorbed, but who does not have a partisan political career behind him. My accusation was that I was 50 years old at the time. I am tired of the position and I no longer want to be Prime Minister in Lower Saxony and I prefer to live in Berlin and then in Bellevue Castle, that is a bad motivation to be Federal President.

If the federal president turns to someone who can enhance his merits outside of the party politicians in a way that makes them feel more comfortable, it is of course understandable - if you have seen the house in Großburgwedel, perhaps everyone has the right to do so. house that I built myself, I don't have it at all, no one is obliged to be the master of their own taste, yes, it was a very sad clinker tree, now I have a headline in my head, it was always We talked exactly about the clinker hell of Großburgweger, but later in the text, so the AfD program yes, so the AFD program exists here it does not say that press freedom is reduced, but now let's imagine that the AFD becomes the strongest party and governs, there is a reason in the subject. from the media yes, of course, they want to abolish GEZ tariffs and they want to reform public broadcasting, although the term reform sounds very friendly, they want to reduce it to about a tenth, that is, public broadcasting should have the function of informing neutrally, objective news and information about the region itself, that is, for the news there would have to be a ZDF and for the regional window there would have to be regional ARD programs and for the rest, according to the AFD, there would be no need for public information broadcasting, that is, no more broadcasting football matches, no more making game shows, no more producing feature films and Haseldorfer also says yes.

It doesn't matter, it's a position that is not one on one, it's just yes, but it doesn't mean that now someone is happy with the government instead of installing one and so on or publishing propaganda or something like that, but it's just that broadcasting public should end. In this way we will disempower ourselves and depoliticize ourselves, which means that a

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like ours would probably no longer exist. We just said so diligently that we could both be abolished and we couldn't. That's exactly the accusation I often hear. I'm faced with the fact that people say, well, definitely. they have to report on certain things, they have to adopt certain government lines, they basically get the issues specified by the government and so on, that's all nonsense, it's all nonsense and not even a German chancellor could go there.

They also say our little one, This little insignificant

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couldn't just get rid of it and that's the quality of our constitutional state, our director Norbert Himmler, if Olaf Scholz said to him, you can get rid of this or that, that would force him to do it, en Furthermore, this would have certain There is a danger that Olaf Scholz will be suppressed by this relationship, in any case exactly the idea that the AFD has in this regard. Politics is leading public broadcasting by the nose by the nose, it is naive and It's wrong, right, um, thenI realized in the last episode that I said in immigration policy that if you say we have to make borders poets, that's what they do.

We have made a Plan for Africa so far, yes, I said that we need a proactive immigration policy, we accuse the AFD of saying that they cannot think of anything other than to deport, erase borders, make poets, shoot them if necessary, but No, in the program of the party says that we have to fight against the causes of flight and that we must get involved in Africa. In fact, it says that in Patte, I don't know if they wrote it last week, but it's in the AFD. Then I looked at it more closely and the idea that the AFD has of fighting against the causes of flight is strange because it is not always talked about anymore.

I say the very popular word development aid, a word that no longer exists in the 21st century. century, but it is still called that, that is why in the party program it is still called that, well, according to the motto there are poor countries where people are dying of hunger. We don't do much in development aid, so it is approached in a very complex way and then it is said that even if we give development aid, it only works in African states, where you know there is no corruption and that is not filters, etc., but still the immigrants, not the immigrants, come from countries that do not work.

We have almost no patient complaints here, which is a country that works. We have many more who also come from Somalia, so the more broken an African country is, the more likely people are to do it. In this AFD development aid program, things do not really appear forward-looking when we talk about the causes of the leak, about how an economy can be better organized, for example one of the unilateral free trade agreements, the African countries. They can sell us their products duty free, but customs duties on our products, for example, long-standing demands that I would not fulfill, for example, help the African economy a lot, but there are many other things that are possible, as if we should help countries help themselves and not with development aid, yes, drilling wells back then and somewhere to deliver the idea of ​​how to combat the causes of the leak, the AFD has very little knowledge In this regard, I'm thinking about this phrase again, how do we support only countries that are not corrupt?

Can we know what happens to the money, so to speak, etc.? It's a phrase, so everyone would sign it. I'm thinking about it again, I'm thinking about a trip or several trips to the Gambia, for example, it's the smallest African country that essentially just consists of this river Gambia, we have to talk about that, the English have kept it, so that all around is Senegal, around Gambio, in the middle, is this small country. The Gambia actually only consists of this river. There English and French are spoken everywhere in Senegal. Yes, which is a completely absurd situation because of course you could trade much better and everything. they would be better interconnected if they all spoke the same language, but no, the British wanted this river, why did they want to be able to transport slaves is the very sad story on the banks of this river Gambia, entire towns that just became empty at some point when If you look to the people of Cape Verde and then they send them to the United States, it has a horrible history, but there is a great road there so you don't need much else because the country is a long thin line, so to speak, and this The road It's a nightmare for every car, no matter what car you come in, there are potholes that are as deep as entire houses in our country and you drive over these potholes and you can set the clock based on when the tire bursts. for the first time or your axle is broken or whatever.

First of all, that's something that sounds like ordering the nearest garage and saying, well, then at least you'll make a little money with the mechanic on the left or right side of the road, but the truth is that a road like this it takes away basic speed from a country in such a clever way that it has to be said that if this is the most important traffic artery, then this country will never recover. If you think about all the trucks that die there then you think about the food that gets loaded up in the heat and then sits there again for hours for days until something can be repaired and then the meat and everything else has long since been thrown away. lose. , meaning that this street alone would be, so to speak, a central development project that would have to be addressed.

The EU recognized that at some point and started having Chinese hospitals too, etc., it's very interesting and then. You see this road and you know that it was partly supported by EU funds and then you see that you actually need something that I have 30 cm and the layer of tar in a strange way has been reduced by 20 cm. the tea has simply dissolved and liquefied and there are only ten left. The remaining 20%, converted into many dollars, was pocketed by someone just to watch this street, so that the money did not disappear somewhere, it was literally not possible. you can't do that means just saying this simple sentence it's only for countries that are not corrupt it's crazy who should do that it doesn't work it doesn't work it's intentional but not thought out yes so there should be people who check, like in Cologne, when they build its meter, that the iron beams are not removed from the wall again.

Yes, that's exactly what it sounds like. If there is a lack of liquid, the iron suddenly breaks everywhere. , yes, of course it is difficult, no, with the standard of eating, but what is strange or wrong is this patriarchal form of development aid that helps you starve because a little so that you can stay there, a little above your head somehow It doesn't work, it doesn't work anymore, how to do cooperation in the 21st century, because at least it is in the party program. Such an important topic in the party program is the European Union, this is how the AFD would do it.

They would like to dissolve and reinvent the European Union and instead of the EU, they would like a strong federal government, it says that we are on the path to a European planned economy or we have already reached a fairly high level. There are many things that. can be done, for example, the German farmer who, by the way, plays an important role in the party program, so they will be very rural regions, represents firmly and says that everything is decided through the head of the German farmer and all in Brussels. and all the skills that have been acquired there and so on, have to be purely nationalized again, we need a flexible association with the European Union, but we cannot make a European planned economy, the states are too different for that and then also many decisions are They take over people's heads.

So now it is clear what this whole program is going through. If you say what is the common thread that holds the AFD together, then you have to say it again: more autonomy for the individual, yes. more in the region more autonomy I have more to say in my city in my town more autonomy for the nations for Germany then less Europe then the whole idea is to return to a state where the individual can determine himself more strongly again, that It is the common thread in every point of the distribution and there is also this cultural war there, so to speak, this idea, there is this evil prohibition party, the Greens, that is the enemy and they constantly want to explain to you how you have to do it. we live and we, on the other hand, want to stop this kind of behavior, please go back to living the way you think is right, exactly right, so don't decide over people's heads, yes and no for decide throughout Germany.

There are two levels: one is the individual and his people and his cities play a minor role and the other is Germany as a nation and both have more autonomy at both levels and that means less autonomy in Europe, which is not seen as one level. independent and all of these questions ask if there are things that need to be decided above the individual's head because otherwise they won't work. This topic is ignored, but when it comes to something like this, we'll get to that later. The weather thing and so on, and then to a certain extent the facts are just interpreted, shall we say, in an idiosyncratic way, an illusion, so that it works somehow.

Now I would like to know the idea of ​​the dissolution of. The European Union and its continuation as a confederation of states is exactly that, let's say, one of the greatest demands of the AFD. Now I ask myself the question: who will be Weidel chancellor or the intelligent one or the successor of Germany? You can't dissolve the European Union, but you could leave, of course, then everyone else would do it. Yes, not everyone does, so the next day everyone else leaves too, but like if the European Union still existed, then Germany couldn't convert the European Union.

European Union in its own confederation, no, we are simply not going to create anything new outside. We cannot create anything new while others stick with the old. On the other hand, the question arises whether. if a European Union would exist now without England and then without Germany, and if Marien Le Pennen became president of France, they probably could not exist without France. So in this sense, perhaps it is actually conceivable that this could happen. Yes, and one would have to imagine that it would be possible to reverse an entity like the European Union, is that possible?

Or we would have to think about what is now regulated through Brussels, then put everything back within national powers, etc. The next financial crisis comes and Europe can no longer act, so it is a fascinating question that interests me now, simply as an observer, whether it is even conceivable that it can be done in a purely technical way, yes, and that it works in some way, or if it really doesn't it doesn't work anymore, that's what fascinates me now is the question of what would happen if you had read this program without knowing it was from the AFD, as you don't know, so I have the image that I have in my head to the AFD, to which of course the political staff of the AFD contributes greatly, and I know that with Kalbitz, who no longer has a large role, and with Björn Höcke, it can really be achieved, yes, we say that We know to the Nazis, so we don't want to give much importance to the fact that the Nazis are dirty in German history, that they relativize the Holocaust, that they have to explain the crimes of the German Wehrmacht as reactions of self-defense and so on, preaching about a history millennial German in the German markets in which somehow there was no turning point and thanks to us Germans we are not worse than the others and all these things, so everything I am very sensitive because everything that concerns them is the crimes of national socialism.

That of course shapes my image of the AFD and I have also said it before, aggressive rhetoric is not ne, that is, always say no We don't want that, we don't want that, we don't want that and in the debates relatively little comes up about what you say. It also bothers me to make constructive countersuggestions and besides such a sun sheep sometimes becomes hysterical rhetoric and that is, of course, all that forms an emotional image of the AFD and for me, of course, due to my socialization, all that the word is on the right is. First of all, I'm very afraid to have fun, but if I just read the party program and I wouldn't say that seems right-wing crazy to me, well, he's not a Nazi at all, there's nothing racist about him in any way, which, of course, is clear.

To be honest, show an advantage. in immigration policy it is the difference with what the CDU would do or what many people in Germany consider correct now, that is, tighten the asylum law, deport as soon as possible people of immigrant origin who have committed criminal offenses and things like that, I think I mean, I don't want to know what percentage of the population that doesn't vote for the AfD sees it the same way, but there's nothing to it that people from Arab culture are somehow racist and inferior and shouldn't mix. . with Aryan blood or something, so I'd probably be fine with höcke writing the program, he certainly didn't write it, maybe he researched it, so the party program itself is much more innocent than the staff is right and I don't know where we get back to the point, so to speak, where it's always so convenient to say and that applies to all of us.

We're also expressly connected to the media, it's so convenient to say look what they're doing and what the hell, how can you and then sometimes it ends in abuse of the voters, I have the feeling that little by little it is ending from time to time to happen Rethink instead of making a name for yourself with good politics, so to speak, and think, well, what would our political response to this instead of constantly being upset about the AFD and angry about what it means now, what there is again. and there again and so on. In other words, constantly jumping over every stick that they are holding us back, yes, instead of saying just you know what we let them do, but we do our thing, notes the AFD, especially in rural regions and especially in the East, for them to say that we take care of their concerns and listen to them, yes, and the other parties are clearly not very good at doing that, isn't it right that many European regulations go too deep?

At the regional level we don't need muchmore regional autonomy, there shouldn't be many more things that the people in their district or city can determine for themselves without directives, guidelines, regulations, etc., making it impossible, so that's not it? something where the AFD is hiding some dissatisfaction, so to speak, which it can only eliminate because the other parties don't take it seriously enough, so it doesn't have to think about the fact that maybe they didn't do a lot of things. are wrong and I didn't listen carefully to exactly what I mean. Things often turn out like this, they take on a life of their own and that is the time to ask ourselves the question from time to time: does it really have to be this way?

Let's take another very concrete example. Life is always particularly interesting when it becomes very tangible and concrete. How often do people sit and say that flying is no longer driving a car, it's no longer a combustion engine anyway? We don't work like that anymore, we use public transportation, yes, it's true. People in the countryside say that, then they laugh at you and I read a number these days that made it clear to me why they laugh at you if you live. in the countryside and you take public transport or you take public transport as Claudia Pechstein would say, then you have the problem that you spend three times more time on the road than on average three times more with your own car, i.e.

This system does not work well , let people see it as bullying if you keep saying it anyway, it doesn't matter and I don't care about your time either, but please take the bus, the train I take and whatever, I totally understand and that's why the smart political response would be to say: pay attention, you know what, I understand you, you have a problem that we have to make sure works, very simply, and this list of The examples are endless and these days I have spoken again with an administrator of district about what he had to do with Henning Haus Thuringia in the longest serving district administrator in Germany, who I really like, who is a very honest, honest and decent person.

The man represents this in the best sense of the word, this good old Germany that was once there, this man to me and I see him, I hear him speak, I look into his eyes and I trust him, I know that with this man The country is in good hands and in recent months I have had a lot to do with the district administrators and others. For example, Tanja Schweiger and Hunter Weise are partners of Hubert Alwagern, the district administrator in Regensburg, who is also not at all ideological. but someone who will say very firmly what she tells me: I have to accommodate the people here now, I have to organize the schools, I will do it without pretensions, very calm but very practical and very practical, they just do it and that's when I became clear and that's where you get a little bit of faith to take this country back, there are incredibly good people in this country at the grassroots level, district administrators, district administrators, and we owe a lot.

What's more, they give competence and power to the hands, so to speak, because they know how to do it and they are very, very good. I haven't seen a single crazy person so, you know, he has such strange tendencies, so. I'm so patriarchal here from top to bottom. I know how it works, but there are very humble people who do their work in a very practical way, yes, we have many and we should use them much more, yes, and that also works for education. In educational policy, we should give teachers and school principals, etc., many more opportunities to develop their schools in a certain direction, together with parents who have the freedom to decide for themselves whether they want to distribute grades in lessons of physical education in primary school or not, then to loosen the strap and then we have institutions like schools or those in which the very, very tight corset on the right limits the design options and the problem-solving options at the level of districts and municipalities, etc., so I don't think about it enough, yes, why can't you have this legitimate idea, more autonomy?

Yeah, why can't you do that so it's productive? Why do you have to push people who feel the need towards the AFD, then nowadays the established parties have to make it very clear that they are going there, so yes, that is exactly the point and if you look at it all like that, somewhere moment you get an idea of ​​what it could be that people are currently falling into the arms of these people, some of whom are very bad rat catchers, but that's also why it's interesting, Henning, that's why this conversation was worth so much of its weight in gold.

He says that in Berlin there is pure emptiness. this hard firewall and so on and no cooperation with the AFD and the clear border and so on and I understand it because the members of the Bundestag who sit in parliament every day often receive it from microphones and cameras without being noticed. Things that now being called out to them in this German Bundestag, being yelled at, etc., that is disgusting and I understand that some of them no longer want to have anything to do with the people who are sitting there, even if they have good intentions. , but Then say again Mr.

Henning, I understand, but in my district it is completely illusory not to reach agreements with them at one level or another, cooperate, etc., I need them if I want to implement certain things and he even said. if nobody listens to that now But in the country in my district there are one or two from the AFD, they are quite sensible people, so more pragmatism and I would say that someone like Mr Henning is someone on whom we can make the decision and the verdict about whether you can work with them with the other maybe not, we can leave him a cell phone he already knows what is good he makes a difference not from Berlin he said exactly yes there are two more points in the party program it is the educational policy that It is the most boring point of the match program.

What do you have before? that again as it used to be, what does that mean three-part system no comprehensive schools no school experiments again specialized knowledge instead of skills and everything else has changed so basically let's go back to making schools like in the 60s and 70s, that it also means being inclusive in the corner or sometimes a whistle, that's what I associate with it, but it must be said that it is not on the commodity party program and has not been reintroduced. , but it's basically like the old school I went to and you can't look them up.

I forgot that this school was made for the salaried work society of the 20th century and not for the professional challenges we face today. in the 21st century and that's why schools have to change and that's why I can't do anything with this entire section, so it will be like you didn't really think about it but just said that everything that happened was a bit stupid and now let's do it like we used to do it, so there is a very weak link in the program and then there is the foreign and security policy program that they had there propaganda there to question those who say that the basic orientation of the program that Germany has To go back to to be more autonomous in the world, we have again the issue of autonomy, so we have to get out of the strong slipstream of the USA, we need an independent Europe and within this independent Europe independent national states, that is, the AFD, don't think It's a very European army, so they probably don't want a Greek general commanding German officers, but maybe they want it to be the other way around, so undermining Germany may not be on the program, but this idea, so to speak, it is the defense of sovereignty, autonomy Important, yes, therefore, of course, improving the preparation of the Bundeswehr for defense, but no more foreign policy under the heading of the West, which very often means align with American interests, but take an independent path and we and then says that we need a good relationship with the US and at some point again with Russia against this phrase yes, no, no, yes, because that would be really necessary at some point, whenever possible, it is completely It is clear that we cannot permanently return to a cold war and we cannot do it in the 21st century, in the era of climate change, and the great migration movement and so on are playing the Cold War again in the 20th century, that's really good, now you can.

To say that there are no solutions here on how to do it, that is not the task of a party program, but that is all. The question that a government would then face is exactly what it looks like in concrete terms, so what would happen to NATO under such circumstances, for example, and then the part of the party program that for me is a trip to Absurdistan, that that's all. Climate is all about energy policy, etc., so it really makes it incredibly easy for you. It's an illusion, yes, climate change is not caused by humans. Climate change is a thing.

It can no longer be denied, not even in the AFD, but it is natural or should be natural and now there is the great challenge of getting used to it. this positive opportunity because in the AFD party program warm periods on the planet have always been much more fruitful and better for life than cold periods, we can really prepare for blessed times, we just have to do it. So when you learn about climate change, This part of the party program was written by the Brothers Grimm, so it's like that. Hopefully everything will turn out well if we make a real effort in the face of a problem that is about to destroy everything that supports life on this planet. makes life worthwhile or possible for people, then one wonders how in the 21st century a party that calls itself a democratic party and that wants to become the majority party at some point can say such nonsense in its program.

There are fewer and fewer cold days, yes we can sit outside more often and for longer, even until late autumn, yes that means Richard, in other words this program is actually as it comes and that is exactly what what I observe It is harmless and that is exactly what it is. The intention is that no person looks exactly the same as exactly three programs of other parties, exactly the democratic party, among other things, exactly that means that this is a wolf in sheep's clothing, you can't say otherwise, if you know the AFD staff, yes we have talked before, so on the one hand you get the party program and on the other the staff is not quite united at the beginning and then in case of doubt, an AFD is supposed to in power will fulfill what its acting staff promises more than what is in the party program, yes, and the real party program is actually a Beyond that, the real party program of the AFD plays with fear , yes, exactly Rese and the Mouse, although this famous Gauland satzner is not a program, but Face and Timo are now a program, it is a very successful program, if you listen to the speeches and so on, then you have it.

Despite that, he is exactly afraid. and we are not followers, yes, but we are the only ones who think clearly, that is why the AFD flatters its voters more than any other party by turning everyone into one, yes by saying no you do what you do. you think about falling in Berlin and so on, you are thinking exactly right and you can do it masterfully, first you prepare yourself for a huge fear and then, in case of doubt, at the end you tell every complete idiot who recognized everything exactly correctly: the Interesting question would actually be if these were solutions, yes, but voters don't seem to be interested in solutions.

If fear is your thing, then you don't need to say exactly yes, that's the point. And the AFD is not a party like other parties. You just have to say it very clearly and the image of the wolf in sheep's clothing can be exactly right and I recently read a very interesting interview with Nora Markert. I don't know, you probably know them as professors. Constitutional law was asked at the University of Münster: If you think about it now and suddenly an AFD chancellor or then an AFD chancellor appears, how easy would it be to change our system again in a democracy that regulates it? asks Exactly and Mrs.

Makart says I'll name a few, yes she says there are possibilities. She starts, for example, with the AFD, where she then takes control of the executive branch. Yes, you can then appoint officials who will stay. permanently You can do it with the police. You can do it in schools, you can do it in the workplace, you can do it in the immigration office and you can do it in the prosecutor's office. Then you have a theme like. that and it says the first stop for one of these Redesign and you see that in the Poles and the Hungarians, for example, the decisive step is the reorganization of the judiciary.

You also saw that in Türkiye, that Brazil saw that, so authoritarian. Politicians start right there, we must say courts, justice is used. Viewed as a term in political science, it's basically a kind of veto player in a democracy, so if politicians want something etc., then a strong independent court can always say exactly that contradicts the constitution, we don't want that , but if it is now, for example, if you look at the AFD, they are now coming to power, what would the approach be then, you say, a media, for example in Poland? Was it that they simply introduced a new lower age limit for judges?

That sounds so unsuspicious sincepolitical point of view at first, but that means all at once and then it will be exciting when a lot of judges retire and the government suddenly has to do it. the opportunity to have the judiciary with his people, so to speak, Donald Trump was where the president ultimately decides who gets on this Supreme Constitutional Court, and that's actually how it is. Yes, I was also surprised that the American president has power of attorney. There is another one and that also works for us and is, so to speak, the surprise. The other trick would be, for example, to expand the courts, you say, and no one will complain, you would say, ah. , they are all overloaded anyway and so on and there are complaints about the huge mountains of files and so on anyway and then you just do it and sell it as a big fact in politics like 30% more judges and these new jobs of singers is interesting.

If, for example, you understand how judges are selected in Germany, in most states the so-called electoral committees of judges are created, then there are the representatives and therefore the parties, and in that case the AFD would use a lot of language. yes, that should create a certain democratic legitimacy and so on and so far, whatever, now they are trying to keep it as independent as possible, which means that in lived reality there is such a democracy, otherwise you can feel something So such a basic consensus, they say, we strive for a certain consensus when electing judges, so whoever is in the political majority still deals fairly with what the minority wants, what the opposition wants, it is clear to everyone that I myself could do it the day after tomorrow Yes, suddenly you can go back to being opposition or minority, but you don't have to do it that way, that's what democrats do among themselves, but you can also do it completely differently, so Now the AFD would immediately respond to this and say that there is no problem with them since the opposition does, then because there is no democratic side according to the rules of the game that we imagine as democracy and then the AFD would say again who determines what the difficult issues for good democrats yes yes, that's where everything always goes in circles.

Exactly, I just want to say that the judiciary is, so to speak, an open flank of our democracy, it is very vulnerable and we have already seen that in the Weimar Republic, for example, there were lawyers who were not ardent fascists and who then simply They were breaking down, they were retreating, so it fits the convenient claim, and they were saying please, so we're just neutrally applying the law. politics or parliament are, so to speak, powerful and precise and we do not want a dispute with this new government and so on, which means that they have a pure way of doing it, suddenly they gave up this Vito who actually had the right to take .

Hard action and exploitation of personal risk seemed equally great, exactly the terrible thing is that people are very, very adaptable and that when you have huge problems for your policy, the fear of a position has made people change your morale very gently. I think it is an eternal idea that happens in every country in the world at any time. By the way, also here in Hesse, a judge recently stated that the NPD's probation on Migration is correct, at the same time. responsible for asylum in the administrative court and in Saxony mainly Ms. Marker, then a judge has just noticed that she writes texts critical of asylum in the extreme right Junge Freiheit, so I just want to say that it is noticeable that something is falling apart, Yeah.

It happens very quickly and that is the point that basically you have to be clear: our whole system, this whole democracy, is very, very fragile, it works and it goes faster even though it was created, that is exactly what it was in reality. prepared for eternity The idea is that it should be a liberal democracy and should not be able to nullify itself in the Weimar Republic. That is why, for example, the federal president deserved so little power, unlike the Reich president in Weimar. republic that had enormous powers, it was said that no, it would be better not to do that in Germany with power, not to give it as much power as Russia gives to its president or Ukraine to its president or the Americans to its president, but rather the President gains relatively little power.

We introduced the five per cent hurdle because they didn't want to give small radical parties the opportunity to enter parliament and mix and grow. They also wanted to avoid there being too many parties because there are. There was a time when there were many parties, when there were many different interest groups. Now we have to think about it. At that time there were three parties: CDU and CSU, also CDU/CSU as a faction and SPD and FDP, later the Greens were added. Left Party, the AFD, so we are also increasing the parties at the moment and that may be the case if Sarah Wagenknecht of the party gives the reasons for it, something else is coming and maybe at some point the Greens will split into the Hard Greens and the Softcore Green then maybe one more party, so everything will change anyway.

We just have to realize that a system that we have established for eternity and that I am in also thought about my childhood, youth and socialization. nothing stays the same, and we are not just talking about the justice system, how quickly it happens, the same thing happens in Poland and Hungary and then you would have the last lever, so to speak, where you can use it very Directly, the authoritarians are always interested ​​in access to the media, and in Germany we have already spoken, here there are radio stations that control ARD and ZDF, for example, they are politically occupied and all social groups are represented, etc.

They are allowed to constitute a maximum of one third, which is also quite interesting. Yes, but they are often the spokespersons because they tend to have more experience, so the representatives of some associations, yes, so they hardly have any professional chances against them. What is interesting is which groups are sent as representatives of civil society in these specific places. That is what the majority of the government decides and that also means that an authoritarian majority is not a good idea. Over time, yes, you can change the weights and then intervene much harder, for example in public broadcasting, and you will also find people there, as you wrote about lawyers, who will adapt in case of doubt.

We could say that yes, extremists are not allowed there and what is extremist is determined by the Constitutional Protection Office, yes, but the Constitutional Protection Office is also an authority, yes, and the instructions because these authorities have been run for years by Georg Maaßen, yes, so they are now not considered the middle of society, yes, and are subject to the instructions of the Ministry of the Interior, etc., the main banks are then occupied by the Ministry of the Interior. Interior or something like that or by committees or something, so we have exactly the same situation if the power takes power then it would probably no longer be classified as far right by the Office for the Protection of the Constitution, in the first of them who would disconnect immediately, 100% yes, that's exactly what would happen, that's why it's interesting, but I, Hans-Georg Maaßen, by the way, am also quite interesting as a lawyer, intelligent, never looked for prohibitions, so to speak, nor from the right-wing nor left-wing parties because it was clear to me how difficult that is, no, that's yes, then you reset yourself with a different name, so it doesn't work at all, so banning these parties, it's not really the story of one town, no, it works twice, it works twice, it works once with the successor parties in the late 1950s, the KPD was banned. exactly founded yes yes exactly yes and for every right-wing party every Nazi party that at some point I think they are among the NPD works and so on with the banned party nothing can be done about it, but the solution is to find those people who are no longer so rotten and corrupt in their souls that they have to take refuge and the Nazis, all our brown lord, but who are also upset because the bus doesn't run and because, as far as I'm concerned, the wolves are there and that they are not asked if immigrants live, how and where, etc. and that nothing can be offered to them that they have long-term constructive plans for immigration and immigration policy and and and who also stand out With so much motivation, now the one in Berlin is enough for me.

They can't get anything on the chain. Now I want the AFD to pick them up, not by serving restaurants but by helping them with their problems with it. the bus really drives, thank you very interesting exchange yes, thank you also exciting now I can finally say that you have read the AFD program I am I would like to know how many AFD voters have read that yes so have a good week Thank you very much Very much, goodbye, see you soon at OMR on behalf of ZDF.