Mental Health & Burnout | What employers need to know

Hello, good morning everyone, welcome to the Round Table of eight participants. Let's let everyone introduce themselves and then we'll get started. We will start soon. Good morning Alexis. Good morning Catherine David Hanley Greg Myers. Good to see you, stranger, Clark. good morning Sharon Greenberg alright good morning to all of you who are just logging in right now welcome to the HR roundtable we have a great panel discussion for you this morning let's get to it give it a couple of minutes to Let people introduce themselves and then we'll start shortly. It's great to see you all.

I'm Kerry Stephanie Shonda, good morning Sabrina Ruth Ronald Rebecca Trisha, Mrs. Bromowitz, good morning Josephine Jacqueline Center, good morning everyone, Charlotte, good morning Brandon, good morning Anna Maria, Alexis Aisling. big name big name okay uh welcome everyone to the human resources roundtable that we're going to start uh in just a second um we have a great panel for you this morning big topic very important topic um and uh Walter when we roll in um I'm actually going to take over the screen for a moment, for a second, so I guess when I'm done sharing the screen, um, Walter, can you just take down the screen so we can see all of our people, panelists, good morning everyone, we're going to start in just a minute, welcome to the human resources roundtable, for those of you who have received an invitation indirectly maybe someone forwarded it to you if you want to be part of our regular distribution and receive invitations directly from the HR Roundtable a little later I will show my information in the window and you will be able to contact her. to me to send me an email and we'll be sure to get back to you in our regular distribution, okay, okay, we're certainly getting there, um pop, over here and I think we can, uh, we can get started, uh.

Good morning everyone, welcome to the Human Resources Roundtable. My name is Roger Oliver. I am the Director of Strategic Accounts for the 10-position group of companies. We've been running the HR Roundtable for over 20 years as a way to provide a really useful forum. uh and usable information critical information for senior HR professionals in all um uh types of businesses and really to arm people to the teeth with the kind of information and

know

ledge that they

need

not just to go toe-to-toe with senior management. when necessary to set your goals and objectives, but also to help you in your regular daily work, a little around 10 posts, your host for today, we are

what

I would describe as a multi-faceted staffing solutions firm, we provide temporary attempts to hiring and direct hiring.

Staffing a wide range of skill categories, account positions is our copy of the accounting and finance division. Strength for a full range of IT solutions. Human Resources Staffing Solutions is our human resources division. So if you

need

staff for your team, contract recruiters are in high demand right now. We can help you in that regard. On-call advice for legal professionals, attorneys, paralegals and other legal professionals. The school's professionals are ours. education division we provide substitute teachers or charter schools and private schools and we also have an exclusive agreement with the city to provide pre-k teachers for the universal pre-k program in New York City, so every time you hear upk or a pre-k universal K, that's us, we're the engine under the hood of that program, our Hospitality division, we provide servers, bartenders, culinary professionals, all kinds, occasionally you'll need people for the pantry, you

know

, maybe you're having an event.

I can help you with that too uh 10 positions Healthcare uh we provide um uh nurses um medical professionals nurse practitioners um

health

care we have a large presence in the social service Arena uh we work with many organizations that provide services to people with develop

mental

disabilities uh child welfare populations homeless shelter programs um like Safe Horizons and wind and uh and then on the clinical and allied and clinical allied side um we uh provide and we are still staffing the New York Vaccination Initiative for all of New York state uh so do you remember all those big Pods at Yankee Stadium and the racetracks and all that stuff?

That was all of our people, more than 5,000 people. Very proud of that. Our Logistics Division for light industry and anything in a warehouse environment. 10. The positions are kind of our flagship just for uh uh clinical and uh sorry for the administrative and administrative uh Staffing I've only had a cup of coffee, this is

what

happens create an Office for uh for everything related to the web and uh and last but not least, our executive search division calls TGC Search, okay, well, I'm going to stop here now and I'll go ahead and introduce our dashboard. We have a great panel for you this morning.

We have Dr. uh, huge wall, um ramtagar, who serves as senior medical director and enterprise clinical strategy at teledoc

health

. He has worked as a psychiatrist and experienced healthcare executive and population health expert with numerous scientific publications and presentations focused on telehealth. He innovative

mental

health and care models and is also passionate about workforce health challenges, including

burnout

. Innovative strategies to mitigate them and, in addition, holds various leadership roles and developed development programs in different settings and continues to participate in community boards focused on the advancement of mental health. We welcome We all have Dr. Shannon Rocker and uh Shannon is a licensed psychologist and assistant director of inpatient operations at Hutchins Psychiatric Center in Syracuse, New York.

She has worked at the New York State Office of Mental Health for over 16 years in addition to her clinical and administrative duties. Dr. Rocker has a strong commitment to teaching and mentoring others in the field. She has been an engaging professor at SUNY Polytechnic Institute for the past 13 years and I have also been invited to present at numerous national and state conferences on a variety of topics in the areas of clinical and forensic work and physician self-care. Dr. .Brian Sheng. Brian is the research director of the Global Mental Health Laboratory at Teachers College, Columbia University. His current research focuses on the psychometric properties of clinical instruments. as well as training in adaptation and evaluation of psychotherapy protocols used by non-specialists in those resource areas, has been supported as COI on several federal and foundation grants and Dr.

Chang has collaborated with academic and humanitarian research groups as part of treatment studies conducted around the world with diverse populations, welcome, Ryan and Dr. Heather Greenwald, Dr. Greenwald brings a unique perspective on corporate consulting, having worked as a staff, psychologist and organizational leader in prisons for more than two decades, having been in dark rooms, with the darkest. topic discussed, she has found methods to support, inspire and encourage people who have done their worst and bring out the best in themselves and she brings a considerable skill set to organizational consulting, so what brings us here today? I don't think we've ever seen it. the mental health issue is more focused on uh, on society, um, certainly we've all been through, uh, you know, something with the pandemic, we're still going through that.

I think the ripples in the pond will reverberate for years and years to come and it will take us, you know, maybe a decade to really understand what we all went through together, that's the social environment we find ourselves in post-pandemic, hopefully be it after the pandemic and you. I know mental health has been in everyone's consciousness uh uh just uh in sharp focus in our lives um the number of mass shootings that we've had in the last few days um it's uh it's shocking, I think anyone with uh, with the school-age children, uh, you're familiar with what they've been through and what they're still going through, in terms of having dealt with the pandemic situation, and that continues to impact them as well. and then we have the workplace, you know, what's the focus today, you know, we have

burnout

and we have, you may have other issues, so why don't we jump into that as we go?

Go ahead, if you have questions for the panel and we recommend you ask questions, just dive into them, put them in the Questions tab instead of the chat window, use the Questions tab and I'll do my best to get to as many of your questions that we can respond live here, for you, to the extent possible, so anyone wants to try to break down burnout, and describe burnout and sort of why, what we're dealing with, as usual. If you maybe want to make sure, Roger, good morning, thank you all for joining us, this is really a very relevant topic now more than ever and there have been several definitions in different contexts in Florida, but in this context as we speak.

As for employees and organizations, burnout really is the syndrome that results from chronic stress in the workplace that is not managed successfully, so it is not really a problem for the employees of an organization and if we think in the reasons for burnout, it is sometimes perceived as an injustice. and treatment of any unmanageable workload lack of role Clarity sometimes I perceive a lack of communication and again I insist and use the word perceived more and more because in reality it is a perception on a personal level, so I perceive a lack of support from your pressure of manageable or unreasonable time, so it's really a two-way thing, resulting in this feeling of detachment, feeling of exhaustion from work and a little bit of feeling of cynicism and all of this collectively because I was born now in In a professional sense, now It is a good thing and although it has been a topic of discussion for about 20 or 30 years, things are being taken very seriously because there is a significant impact not only on personal health, psychological well-being and relationships and productivity in general, now there are huge repercussions even on organizations and

employers

, we are in the United States alone, we are losing around 300 billion dollars a year alone due to high turnover rate, decreased productivity, huge insurance costs , and absenteeism and retention issues, and now the World Health Organization has recognized this as well. and I included it in the glossary in terms of how we describe our mental well-being, so I'll stop there and yes, Heather, I saw you nod, did you mean to add?

I thought I was doing a great job. Okay, and I guess I could certainly expand on the topic and just say that in addition to burnout, we're seeing related but different constructs, as are many of the HR people on the line. maybe you've come across it and heard about it depending on your field, but burnout is one of the epidemic things we're dealing with, but also vicarious trauma and moral injury or moral distress and compassion fatigue and illness mental, and I know all these things. They are HR concerns and as HR professionals or supervisors of line staff or managers or executives in a senior management, we don't necessarily know the difference between all of that and all of those things are happening in the workforce and the system has to having a process to be sensitive to it and even though they're happening, they just add to the picture, alright, um, Shannon, what are the differences between stress and stress and burnout and what you might categorize as illness? mental? um, include the signs of the causes and how, um, how

employers

might approach each um, each case, because I imagine they're very different things and, um, they're not necessarily very easy to analyze, but, um, but it takes Actually, you have to try before you get to that, do you mind if I comment on something that was said a few minutes ago?

Yes, please, by all means, so I think it's one of the biggest contributors to people feeling burned out at work. they feel like they don't have enough time to complete their work, they feel overwhelmed in their work task, and I think you know you were referring to this a little bit in terms of the pandemic, especially mental health. attention as you know in the field in which I am working in a psychiatric hospital, we have a tremendous difficulty right now. Provide adequate staff to our facilities so that people feel comfortable. The people who are front line staff.

People who work every day feel overwhelmed. because we don't have enough staff constantly to complete the work and give you the care that we're used to giving, so I think that's contributing to, um, I don't know ifThat's the same in other, um, uh, other industries. I suspect it is, I'm sure it is, I mean friends of mine who have um um school age children who are dealing with, you know, mental health issues, there just aren't, there aren't enough of them. professionals there to, you know, deal with them, and I'm sure the understaffing is, you know, that's a big problem, as well as the understaffing of people in their workplaces, right?

You know people are experiencing that too, Brian, do you want to chime in a little bit about burnout? Yes, I'm sorry, I think everyone else has said it so eloquently, it's really one of the leading causes, in reality, numerous studies provided strong evidence that burnout leads to absenteeism at work and higher rates of job turnover, in addition to creating stigma and reputation for positions and work as well, so not only is it a direct implication for your organization, but reputation is lost, people discover the type of burnout and stress that their positions or their organizations have and prevent to people and reduces recruitment rates and all that, um, etc.

It's definitely something that has a big impact on your organizational structure. Again, it doesn't add to absenteeism. In fact, it is also present in ISM. There's a trend I've been reading a lot about lately called silent resignation, where people are going to work. they work, but they do the absolute minimum and sometimes not even there, but you know, no cost for having to leave, so you know all of these things are essentially affected primarily by war, now, for sure, and I have one of our, um, we. I have a question on the tab I'm asking. I think this is typical for you, so it would be great if you could rephrase your definition of workplace burnout.

So do you have a concise way to define burnout in the workplace? In the workplace, how would you describe? I think burnout is really the syndrome that results from chronic stress in the workplace that has not been managed successfully and this is purely in the context of the workplace and just to expand on it we would say that stress is just a physiological reaction. or human psychological to things that are called stressors and the stressors could be related to work, but the stressors could also be related to the workplace and the stressors could be related to really trying to manage and juggle things, particularly in the context of a pandemic between work and family life. parenting, elder care and our own self-care as well, so I wanted to expand on that a little bit because Roger, you said something really interesting, you know, in response to Dr.

Shannon's very astute observation that the professions that are really driven for a mission. and that's actually about some kind of donation, so our healthcare social work and human resources professions are always looking out for the well-being of their employees, etc., they also have a little bit more risk of burnout and Dr Greenwald called it compassion fatigue. which was great, one thing to really mention, yeah, when you're a comment, Roger and said that one of your colleagues who has a child struggling with mental health issues has been really struggling because there aren't enough providers, a subtle Lo What I noticed is that even if it's an employee, if you think about it from the perspective of an employee, itself the family issue, the child struggling with mental health issues or a family member who has some needs, It's a direct stressor that then contributes to burnout because it now manifests itself at work and probably in your performance as well, so while we're trying to define it more in the context of the workplace, we also need to think about it more in the workplace. context of an entire work context. it's part of your life in general, but so is the family itself, there's a social circle and, um, other UH responsibilities too, sure, Shannon, do you want to add anything to that?

I'm not saying anything, I was breaking up with the Mayans a little bit, okay, I could I didn't hear everything, okay, yeah, I guess not, I agree, I think uh, go ahead, no, I was going to say that you're uh, I got you breaking up a little bit, so we know we might have. A little bit of signal issues today, but that's pretty typical, we'll just move on, but go ahead, I think we can hear you, go ahead, Shannon, I think exactly exactly, I think home, society. shoe family, I would go on to say that they also contribute to stress in the workplace, so that is a major issue for employers to accept, yes, you are breaking a bit, if it continues, maybe. sometimes you turn off the camera or then it will help make these signals stronger there, so we go back to where we were, you know, for a moment, before, and we talk about the difference between stress and exhaustion, you know, this guy. of the pressure cooker that people are in and how is that different from mental illness or do you see them as two separate things?

Brian, do you want to try it at that fair? I'll try, you know, like Dr. Rontakar mentioned that burnout is a syndrome caused by stress, so stress is the cause, burnout is the effect that we see particularly in the workplace, but again, as you mentioned, you may feel exhausted. As a parent, if you burn out as a caregiver, it's not particularly in the workplace, but workplace burnout is now increasingly seen as being caused not just by workplace stress that isn't managed appropriately. effective, but also from the stress of life outside of all other aspects of a person's complex life contributes to you knowing that they feel exhausted, even in the workplace.

Mental illness is related in the sense that you know it can contribute to stress and burnout, and also the other way around, bidirectional stress and burnout can also contribute to a higher likelihood or higher risk of mental illness, but it's essentially a concept. or different construct, mental illness has multiple factors and multiple causes that can cause someone to feel depressed or develop anxiety over time, or it could be something like that. that has been chronic and has been developing since childhood or adolescence, we have disorders from childhood and adolescence that carry into adulthood, so it is related, it is associated, but it is definitely still distinct, and in fact, in the world today with research from the World Health Organization, We are also really moving away a little from the term mental illness, we are using mental health conditions, it is much more inclusive, much more complete, because if we think about health Physically, one could have a physical health condition, but it is not necessarily simply a disease.

However, it is true, one could be prediabetic but not diabetic, so think the same way. Many people, especially given the pandemic, and things being the way they are going, may be experiencing mental health issues, although it may not turn into a full-blown illness. - Mental disorder or mental illness, okay, that's a very, very good point, so how does someone in HR or the workplace do it, or a manager position. I guess you know, listening to everyone here and talking about burnout. um, it sounds like burnout is something that could probably be addressed, you know, maybe not alleviated at all, but it's certainly addressed in a way from, um, you know, from an employer's point of view, to give something of relief to a situation. or potentially offer some relief there, whereas something that um um you know is a mental health condition um obviously is something a little bit more complex and um and a little bit outside of um you know, that person's wheelhouse, like what? are some of the ways that um and uh uh Shannon I can tell you this uh some of the ways that an employer might look to help alleviate or address some of that burnout and then what would that employer do?

How might they approach a situation where that was a little more pronounced than something we would call, you know, a mental health condition? So that's a great question. Yeah, thanks for breaking it down into smaller pieces, maybe you can take. the first half and um well, so I think a lot of the way we could approach it would be individualized, so I think we need to talk to employees and find out what their particular needs are because I think sometimes as employers or um, like HR professionals, we assume what our employees need and that may not actually be what they need, so we may focus on medications or prescriptions or things like that and our employees may focus on I'm not getting enough sleep.

If I'm not doing enough physical activity, I may need help in those areas, so I think having a more personalized approach is important, so making sure that we're talking to people about those things is very important in my opinion. . I know if the other panelists would agree or if we have other ideas on this. Can I also intervene here? I also think it's important to remember that, as our colleagues just said, burnout is cumulative and burnout is also perceived as workload. and exhaustion is perceived and, because perception can change, that is the point of opportunity in both.

First, management even thinks their people should be exhausted. Sometimes management thinks, Hey, this workload isn't overwhelming, and yet, on the shop floor or in the virtual office, um. People feel overwhelmed and sometimes there's a disconnect too, so talking to employees is very important, you know, as Dr. Rocker just said, because that perception is what creates burnout and sometimes it's the In reality, there is too much work and no way to do it. is to be done and sometimes it's a conversation that could change everything and undo those little paper cuts that made it cumulative, so commitment is a huge part first, but in addition to commitment, does this system have a routine maintenance system ? for your employees to say when they are overwhelmed or if they can foresee if they launch this new initiative we will get overwhelmed so we don't always want it to be responsive or reactionary we also don't want to be preventative in implementation and in initiatives and in new policies and changes um and when people leaving in this time of high turnover we also want to anticipate this unit that is now left with fewer and fewer people we can anticipate that it will burn out um and what do you do, especially when it also happens within the HR unit that is trying to hire people just as quickly to plug those holes back up.

And I wouldn't doubt that some of the HR people on this call are also experiencing that and sticking with it. I'm sure it's true. What would you say in terms of? I just reached out to find out how you would suggest an HR professional or manager approach an employee if an employee isn't necessarily asking for help. a very sensitive topic um does anyone have any um any kind of general best practice rules um and uh if not if not the uh the best course of action may be um maybe something that wasn't this is not the way to uh approach something for Deuce to do and do and not do, um, someone wants to take Brian, wants to be sure what he's going to know, thanks to Dr.

Greenwell for putting him back in liquid, all the other colleagues here have mentioned it and have framed that way. I know how I think about it, in addition to what Dr. Greenwell said, it's really the question you just posted, Roger, it requires a two-track approach, so when trying to manage burnout, you need to have both an intervention preventive as an abortive intervention. correct intervention, then what you mentioned is actually, you know, when an employee feels like they can't go to an HR professional or direct supervisor to talk about burnout and perceived stress, their perception of a higher burden of work, your feelings are overwhelmed, so that's something.

That needs to be addressed in the right preventive intervention and part of creating a preventive intervention is making sure you include elements to create a healthier workplace. Place Dynamic of creating an environment that encourages people and lets your employees know that this is something you could come in and address because we're open to it. We want to make sure that we help you be as optimal as possible in terms of your experience and work environment, so that it's part of the preventive piece, the appropriate preventive intervention where you have policies and practices in place and it sounds like you know that if you get to that point and they don't reach you, then we are looking at an abortive intervention, so how can burnout currently be reduced and, like Dr.

Greenwald? I've mentioned many times that you're actually giving them some options, so you know you don't necessarily go to the person and say, let's talk about how you're doing because I notice you're feeling exhausted, but you're actually letting them know that there are options and that you can talk to me well, one thing I think is a huge, um, scary situation, is that we are not as stigmatized, you know, and theemployees may be afraid. I can speak for myself as an employee of a large, proper educational organization, you know, I can feel burned out, but I may feel like I can't tell my supervisor if I'm experiencing burnout because I don't want to be perceived as less effective and have my position replaced or to take away responsibilities, which are essentially what I find my job rewarding, so not necessarily forcing the person to talk about their burnout or what you think they may be experiencing right now, but saying we're here, I'm here if you want to talk and Again, there's no judgment in these conversations, yeah, it's very interesting, you know, you mentioned stigma and I think it's really amazing how the landscape has changed, you know, to a large extent and in the public. sphere when it comes to discussions about mental health, whether they've had athletes, celebrities, actors, actresses who, you know, have been very open about withdrawing from their work, withdrawing from projects, withdrawing from the public eye in order to concentrate. about his mental health and, um, our Michael Phelps, who you know, about doing ads or, you know, therapeutic services and talking about how positive he's been in his life and, in a way, trying to, um, I guess , normalize it. uh the conversation normalizes the discussion um and yet you know when it comes to the workplace when it all comes down to the nitty-gritty.

I know what's in front of people. I imagine that stigma is still huge and it's something that, you know, people want to avoid. They want to avoid it. They do not want to. being labeled and even in high pressure jobs um um I've heard that you certainly know people in the military uh police officers um Health professionals people who I think people would expect to be exhausted who people would expect to be uh susceptible highly susceptible to the mental challenges, they don't want to get there, so is there anything we can share with our HR audience about what that looks like, what that openness looks like, what that means, you know, letting people know that? which is okay, is there anything anyone would like to share as far as how it's done knowing that the hesitancy is still there and the stigma is still big, anyone love Shannon?

I'm just going to say that, you know, I like what you're saying about professional athletes and celebrities who have been working to make talking about mental health issues less of a stigma. I know I have a good friend. whose son is in the NFL and his big move right now is talking about anxiety disorders and things like that and he's really been promoting his messages, it's okay to not be okay and I think that's huge and I think um you know talking to the kids about that, but I think HR professionals can use that and, you know, make sure that people know that it's okay to not be okay, if I may add to that, I think I should say it very kindly, Dr.

Robert, you know this. goes a bit in line with one of the questions on the question board. I think from David Henley, you know, things like employee assistance could work. I think it's a very helpful thing if you can start from getting going when someone is being hired through the hiring process doing onboarding um when they're looking at their benefits to make sure there's strong encouragement and mention of the services and resources that they provide. know that they can help prevent burnout but also help with proper mental health and improve mental well-being. I can say it personally.

As an employee from Colombia, when I started with them I was very surprised that they had some sort of separate initiative in addition to their benefits. I can also approach this panel of psychopsychologists or psychiatrists even though I am also a psychologist. um two, you know process things and work on your mental health and you know this is what we would compensate for that and, um, really de- link the organization well from someone's mental health and you know this is not someone who works for Colombia, they don't come back to tell us how they are doing, this is for your own health and mental health and mental well-being and hopefully, I would feel better if you choose to use this and we encourage you to use this service correctly, so the assistance to employees is one thing, but you know there is also a lot of stigma in fear because it is me for the organization who is afraid of repercussions like fear of punishment sanctions because what if I tell this person what I really I feel about my supervisor?

So it's important to have this external link, but no, where there's no direct feedback, right? I think one of the most powerful things that can happen is when an employee learns through their own therapy or whatever they go to and you let them know the resources they need and they feel empowered to then go back and have buddy conversations with their director, you know supervisors and reports, okay, let's take some of these other questions here. Can I answer a couple? Yes, please, but read the question out loud. So, first of all, I think two of them can go together here.

Then how? about when employees are nervous about contacting the employee assistance program, since Brian just talked about that, I feel like one of the concerns that you wrote, the assistant is worried that maybe it's not 100% confidential and that this communicated several times, but the participation rate is still low, so what is the recommendation to promote it and encourage employees to use it? And that really ties into what everyone on the panel was talking about right now because, if there's a stigma, then, oh God, if I do this, someone will know and it will happen. to affect my career or your perception of me so how do we get people to use the services, whether it's EAP or some other access point, some other great program that you provide, how do you get people to do it?

We were talking about celebrities promoting new hot spots or new mental illness awareness companies etc., within a corporate culture, who are the celebrities there, but the people who work there, so talking about it between management levels between staff, then in meetings, talk about hey this is part of like a Changing the oil for your car doesn't mean the car won't perform at a high level, in fact your car will perform at a much better level if perform an oil change on time, um, and stuff like that we do. What we can do for ourselves and for others is oil changes for our high performance vehicles and think about it as we are a system that needs care, maintenance, prevention and really normalize that in the Corporate Culture by communicating it in terms of EAP.

The other way to normalize that and get people to do it more is to have EAP come for wellness and health, not just illness, dysfunction, distress and acute things, so don't have EAP only come for functions when someone gets sick. suicidal or, well, everyone. they're being unproductive, let's bring AAP here to see how everyone's doing, let's have EAP involvement, for preventative and wellness things and health-related things so that people see themselves and the system as, um, This is also part of my normality. like when I hit a point of distress, so yeah, I love the oil change analogy.

I think it's fantastic maintenance. Regularly scheduled maintenance. Very good. How about we take these? These other two questions here. uh uh Greg asks how to get executives to believe that there is burnout and stress in the workplace. I think a lot of people don't understand that there's something in the workplace, we know that in HR, but they usually don't, so how about we communicate, communicate that? Um Brian, you want to take a step on that, sure, I guess you know I don't work in a company, but Maino could understand. I guess it's still similar with leadership.

The right numbers are the ones that speak to them the most, so show data and evidence. um, I suppose you would normally be right, so cumulative reports and numbers on the overall productivity of a division are correct, but not to identify direct and specific people, but to speak as a whole, this is what the productivity levels show. those numbers and then back them up with data that is generated from research with solid and correct evidence. International research that has been carried out in numerous First World countries, developed countries. High GDP countries have shown that burnout exists and it exists anywhere between on the lower end, you know, between 15 and 20 percent, in some Scandinavian countries, great places and environments to work there.

Well, you know, in the states and the UK, Australia, where there's up to 40% of the workforce within any given organization at any given time. So all this data is out there, there's been good research done and a lot of good research has also shown that by preventing burnout and also treating it as it exists in the workplace right now, there's actually a high return on investment, i.e. , several excellent. In fact, studies that the World Bank has published together with the WHO show that, on average, for every dollar that an organization, a system, a region or even a country invests in mental health and mental well-being, an average of three to four dollars.

Well, this is shown numerically in terms of the ROI of the cost that you know and what you get as an organization. So there is solid evidence to prevent and intervene in Burnout. That's okay and they may need to be aware of it. Great, so we have a survey question here, here, what percentage of workers have experienced workplace burnout and foreign stress, you know, this is a probing question, right, Walter? This is really about, you know, it's you. Guess what is, you know, socially, the percentage of workers who have experienced, you know, stress and burnout in the workplace?

What would you think that number would be? And look at the results of that survey and in a moment, in the meantime, let's move on to a question from Sonia, she says, as mentioned in healthcare, in the healthcare industry, there's more conversations about legislation in place about ratios. adequate staffing to adequately serve their populations, oh, here we come, the foreign majority. people voted 75 there, um, Walter, do we have a correct answer? I think Hoosball might comment on that, yeah, that's right, so yeah, the audience is absolutely right, okay, like I was saying, uh, uh, Sony says. mentioned in the healthcare industry, there is more legislation and a place for conversation about appropriate staffing ratios to adequately care for their populations.

Are there updates or new information across industries on what updated information there might be on appropriate ratios regarding HR support of your populations or what? framework you could use to better determine a good HR support ratio for your particular organizational structure. Someone wants to try it. Does anyone know of any way to think currently or regarding the two ratios or anyone out there. the audience, if you want to input that into the chat window here, if you have any information on that with respect to ratios, the same way you do in a healthcare setting, um, anyone have any, uh, any.

Thoughts on that particular question about whether, uh, have you seen any ways in which the HR to staff to HR ratios have been addressed or recalculated? I can't say I have, I don't have a ratio answer, but I wanted to talk about the spirit of the question and just say that, like another question we had, says like how do we know that when management doesn't even think there's a charging problem? of work, one of our others? The question said that management doesn't even think there is a workload issue and HR says, "Hey, we're not mental health professionals and we don't even have enough people to deal with and absorb all the stress and problems that are out there." ". and we can't differentiate between stress that's good for you and stress that's debilitating and then mental illness and that's what we're seeing as a theme through some of these questions and another one of our people says here, "hey, can".

I don't even stop the release of all this workload coming to our people, as Catherine writes here in the question, so when we talk about what is a good ratio, we are actually spending money on this, we have dashboards. and metrics for every little detail in productivity, we have quality indicators and quantity indicators and we go to the nth degree deep into all of them, but we typically don't have health dashboards for our employees unless we've already spent some money on it We don't have it We don't have a well-being index for our employees We don't have a Are they using their vacation? are they taking it? uh planned and coming back rejuvenated we're not we're not looking at the metrics there and what the new Zeitgeist is telling us is that we have to do it with the 75 percentpercent of burnt out people, it's time to have a kind of Wellness response and spend some money on wellness and when you want to have an event um To help burn out, it's also very important not to forget the positive aspects.

If you have a health fair and it's about diseases, we're not actually promoting health, we're talking about diseases, which is important and we want to celebrate the whole person, so put money in and talk to management about how to get Some funding for Consultants to come in or for an internal team to work does not always have to be from outside, but some money must be spent, some financing, some attention. That and that requires persuading senior management, right, yeah, and Catherine's whole question for the rest of you was, you know, she said that sometimes workload and launching new initiatives is a sign of control. from employers, um, um, in the case of uh.

From contracted shows where goals don't change even if staffing levels do, there's another question here: how to deal with rejection as a result of knowing you're burned out and how you can get your mojo back. I want to, uh, address that, um, I mean, no one, no one should have to deal with rejection like a um, and I guess it's asking people to know that you're burned out or maybe yourself knowing that you're burned out. . How can you recover? and um, you know, to a state of fitness and um, or you know, like I said, no one should have to deal with a uh, with a rejection like you know, as a result of uh, being exhausted, feeling exhausted, expressing to someone you feel, uh, exhausted.

I guess you know we're talking about some of the things we mentioned earlier in terms of sleep and you know, exercising anything. do you want to dive in Shannon do you want to try it Oh I thought someone else was jumping no I don't know um I think it's Again, individually, I think we all have ways of regrouping and getting back to you, know our baseline, whether walking, taking long walks. I know that for me during the pandemic it was a huge thing, right? It was just the ability to Clear My Head, you know, I think normalizing the fact that we burn out is okay and then again it's okay to not be okay, so I think, again, it's going to be individual to try to figure out what exactly the source is. of exhaustion.

Is it like what you're saying? Is it lack of sleep? Is it the workload? Do I need to find strategies to figure out how to manage my workload or is it home-related things? So I think looking at those things can help I agree that the rocker is very individualized, first of all one should definitely recognize that, again, it's not a me problem, it's a US problem at work which is attributed to that exhaustion and that feeling of exhaustion, so obviously we should appropriately seek out any resources that are available through the workplace because many times there are resources available that we just don't know about or it's not easy to access them, so What the responsibility of sharing or accessing them really is is simply moved from an employee to an organization in a very systematic way, but with respect to the personal issue, I think understanding what the possible reasons are and we talked before what the Various factors of that burnout, particularly the issue of work-life balance, is something important these days when we are seeing a lot of work. from home and many times that leads to a small increase in several of the employees as well, you know, we used to say I want to leave work at the door, well, there is no door anymore, you are there, then you find yourself working 30 more. no um Detachment or transition from work mode to home mode, so being aware that this is my structured work time and this is my structure in home time is very important and then there's some I no, I wouldn't say self-help, but um Some of these things you can do yourself, including mindfulness exercise, resilience, sleep, understanding that this chronic stress is not just about mental health and mental being, it has a very measurable impact on your physical health, so your diabetes and hypertension will worsen.

As an employer, worker camp and your employees' medical bills who are burned out are going to be higher, even if it's not mental health related or if it's bad, it's actually their other healthcare and then learn about the fact that you. We're not alone, um, and there are these peer advisors that organizations can support because whenever there are some, there's some concern about who people go to, they go to the people they trust most of the time instead. work, they work in this community. interested mentors, so, for example, at teledoc Health we have something called business resources on different topics, one is on parenting, which is how you give yourself fully to work when you are a caregiver for elderly parents and a parent of younger children and how do it.

We deal with other types of stress and struggles, so it's great to create a safe space for yourself where you feel like you're not alone and that the organization supports you, and then go back to the initial fee structure we had asked about stress, burnout and mental health. Illness is really a Continuum, it's really a spectrum and so sometimes we just need to be proactive instead of reactive and not everyone who struggles with stress or burnout needs to get full therapy or psychiatry, other things that we've learned. We have gone through peer counseling, peer coaching or coaching.

There are a lot of other things that are very subclinical but could be preventative and could be done in a very digital way, so what's fortunate about Covet has been the widespread adoption and the great uptake and acceptance of Virtual Care Solutions, for example, which provides digital tools that you can access while you're at your work desk on your phone, do some mindfulness that might teach you some skills or follow full programs, or you can talk to a coach during your lunch break without actually having to taking some time off and going somewhere and then doing it in a way that is confidential and extremely accessible that doesn't really increase and increase burnout from trying to make time to go to therapy Psychiatry or training, but it could all be done through of virtual care for Spectrum Suites as well, so there are a lot of resources available, yeah, I looked for, you know, someone who asked kind of a question that we've covered in a way that you know how to get management to respond. uh, buy out participation to allow time for wellness events and things like that.

I think you know what you're saying about insurance and workers' compensation. uh, that's a good way to get management and senior management involved. pay attention to rising costs and, you know some of those effects on your bottom line when it comes to, you know the effects of stress and burnout, okay, so we have a question here, test question, what is the cost? collective? of job stress and burnout for US employers. How big is that number? Go ahead and throw your answers in there and then we'll have an answer to that. Norma asks: Anyone? I have a book on burnout that you would recommend.

Has anyone read any good books on burnout? We don't have any answers. So I think you guys need to write one. I guess now I can think of a better one. selling a book on burnout I think there's an opportunity here I think I would suggest reading one that promotes positive psychology, a gratitude, there are great books on gratitude lessons or mindfulness, so reading the antidote maybe would do it. It can be great practice for someone who is burned out, plus get information there is tons online, but I don't have a good book for bird maps, but Joe sent a poster.

Put something here in the question. This is Walter, can you open it? that in the chat window so everyone can see, there's a book about, thank you Joe for managing employee burnout, and okay, so there's a, there's a book that asks you to get it, yeah, it's not really a book, but, um. I'm a big fan of the uh hbr guides, the Hardwood Business Review guides. There is a very good collection of various articles on burnout and prevention that have been written with organizations in mind rather than the personal mind employed, so this could be a good potential resource.

Also, okay, so most people guessed that 150 billion is the collective cost of job stress and burnout. What is the real answer to that question? We have a? I think it's 300 billion and it's actually growing. Since we've come out of the pandemic and if you think about the entire world it's about 1 trillion in a year and as Brian said it's growing and it's not just due to absenteeism on productivity and the overall business impact on organizations but also to stress in the health system. and again indirectly in businesses because that doesn't make up about eight percent of the total health care spending that employers are sometimes responsible for, and on a very personal and societal level, we're looking at between a hundred and two hundred and fifty thousand deaths. and without talking about disability debt as a direct impact of burnout-related consequences, then it's not just about loss of income and finances, but also lives, making it a really important issue to address.

Well, here we have a question of yes or no, burnout is contagious, is there any research on the long-term effects of burnout? uh uh of an employee uh the burnout of a current employee carries over to a new employee um does anyone want to answer that, I don't know If we have an investigation into that, but does anyone want to talk about how, we're going to like secondhand smoke. Here, how do you know how to burn out and, in one individual, affect another in the work environment? Brian, do you want to? I'm sure I was going to say, you know, I don't know if any research has been done.

It's actually pretty interesting, so I'm going to do some homework right after this because I'd like to know if there's been any research done on the contagion effect of burnout. However, we know from research that it's pretty established at this point that there are contagion effects of mental health conditions, so depression can spread, anxiety can spread, and through numerous mechanisms in place I work in communities and families, so would you know what you would guess? It would be the same for now, I mean, because if we think about it, you know, if someone comes in and it's a new recruit, a new employee and they see that they observe well, it's tangible and observable when someone else on their team is. experiencing burnout and, you know, showing signs of distress in the workplace and possibly developing a mental health condition, it changes the way they view their position, their responsibilities, they have the expectations that the cup that you know the organization has. about them and also probably distorts their idea of ​​what they can contribute and how much they really have to contribute, and then that can, you know, become one of the stressors and contributors to their own porn, so I think it's very contagious in that sense. sense, yes, I agree with Brian and I would explain it because we are talking about burnout is a response to chronic stress or stress that is not managed properly and therefore the reason why the problem arises at the base of the religion. of the burial will be the same for several people and that's where some of those smart questions and facts come up because we're often not able to see the hidden edge that they're looking at on the panels, some of the more burned people who are kind.

Sometimes Type A employees are some of the most productive and would also rate themselves as highly engaged, but they are the ones who suddenly fall off the cliff due to this burnout and often the problems are the same. , so asking a question that is inclusive, unbiased and non-judgmental and really not even directly related to burnout is also helpful, like can you give us any examples of that? Yes Yes. A good question was what is the most frustrating thing for you at work right now. We are not talking about Florida, what most causes the murder version, what is most frustrating for you at work in our hospital, was the lack of function in the administrative office, so everyone had to run to the reception even to do simple things like recipes or write an excuse letter because you came to an appointment for other things simple things or suddenly the coffee machine in the break room doesn't work your water machine doesn't work, you know people have to go to the cafeteria to do that or in virtual cases, receive an email from your boss at 10 p.m. with a not-so-subtle expectation to respond well if he says no, don't email me, that's a great thing, or ask questions about whether he's taken everything. of your granted vacation time this year or even make it one of our points in performance reviews or typicalone-on-one meetings to say: have you taken all the allotted time that was for your PTO or your vacation? not talking about it and asking them about hey, is it because you feel like you can't switch off and you have a lot of work to do that you can't handle and that's why you're really trying to squeeze it all in? of this time and not disconnecting those are some of the good inclusive questions that would provide a good indication of the exhaustion that is hidden, but obviously it is not there also, does anyone have any kind of anecdote that they would like to share? about a workplace mental health issue that you believe was handled particularly well or one that you have become aware of or were involved in in some way and that was handled poorly and I will take either version for anyone who wants participate with a uh, with a history of well managed or poorly managed, I can tell you about something that is well managed.

I guess it's actually a personal story of mine and I know this is what has been affecting millions of employees. at most, especially in healthcare, when we transitioned to teleworking during the pandemic and are now coming out of it. this expectation of being available at all times during the day. I think it's one of the biggest contributors to burnout. Whereas before the pandemic, you know sometimes it's nine to five in healthcare for us, maybe 8:30 to 6:30, that's normal, but there was a compartmentalization, you know, there's some balance between the work and personal life that you can do when you leave work and I leave. my patients behind I leave my research behind I leave my reports behind and I spend any night I have um for other things um however because of teleworking now because of remote work you know your days are more diffuse but they get longer, you know like um Dr. ramdakar said you know getting an email from your supervisor in tennis is not uncommon and you know with this subtle expectation to respond even though it's not explicitly mentioned um and I personally experience a lot of burnout, you know, being in healthcare and education and um I I I realized that luckily I have to agree with everyone and I'm a psychologist, but I realized that I was developing a lot of anxiety about work, you know, the next day, oh my gosh. , I have a lot to do and depression, and it's actually That significantly, you know, caused me to have low numbers in my reports and in my Grant Management and all that, of course, and fortunately I have a direct report, a supervisor who was a big advocate for mental wellness and burnout prevention, and we know she had to sit me down and we got Management to intervene as well.

Talk about, you know, look, maybe we should, um, even though we're doing remote work at the moment, we should actually say that we shouldn't send emails after 6:30 p.m. m., um and although he was clinically depressed and was probably developing some levels of uh close. to clinical anxiety um a simple invention like that um really helped me enormously knowing that I can go out at 6 30 turn off my computer and get on with my life with my family my dog ​​um that was in itself preventative for um what could have been full-blown mental illness um um just an example of something very small like that that can be preventative that's tremendous that's tremendous yeah I will, I'll give you an example from Oregon and something very intentional that could be helpful that we experienced recently I know that one of the key things in Ryan basically mentioned it too: because there's always a need to do something in this, there's a very busy paradox right now that we want to do everything, but we can't have it. everything and there are not always resources available, the problem is that we are really not good at adequately measuring the productivity of knowledge workers, such as researchers, psychologists, healthcare providers and human resources professionals.

It usually takes about three hours of uninterrupted time to really reflect on the plan commitment and do meaningful work because otherwise you and I and I'm pretty sure that all of our attendees today can really relate to this fact that you start your work, you're checking emails, you're putting out fires, you're in a group. of meetings and when it's 5, 30 or 6, you just realize that you dance on you, that man, I didn't do anything I needed to do and I was very busy but I wasn't productive and that's causing a lot of stress. What our company at Teledoc Health did several months ago is that they implemented not only the hygiene measures in meetings to say that there are no consecutive meetings, it is never a 30-minute meeting, it is a 25-minute meeting, it is never a meeting of an hour, there's a 15 0 so people can decompress, people can really transition.

Otherwise, when we work remotely and everything is online, things could be really back-to-back and that's not appropriate, in addition to really good meeting hygiene that has been supported, the train had been announced properly. Another thing that was happening is that we now have a block called Focus forward about four hours a week where it's blocked there couldn't be any meetings there couldn't be anything it's non-negotiable that everything is purely for you to focus and work and that really aligns with the informed questions we need. Let's make an example of the entire organization to support and prevent burnout on a personal level.

We've been having these discussions, for example. We have continuous and free access because it is internal to our wonderful solution. for mental health because it's not just about mental health because in therapy and psychiatry we also have counseling and coaching and we have about 1100 different digital programs that we can actually access with confidence and confidentiality because it's not internal even though Offered by us as a Teledoc Health Mental health solution is something we can access for free at any time and unlimitedly. Having that resource behind me, literally on your phone and in your pocket, is a huge stress reliever and burnout prevention for our workforce, and it's just fantastic. uh here we have a survey question here um and this is just for everyone here uh are you planning on providing or expanding engagement around burnout and mental health in your company and um uh multiple choice here to see what people are doing and I plan to do um and uh again.

I just wanted to review what I mentioned before. I think I should be able to put this in the chat window or actually, Walter, if you can, you can help me and open this. um so everyone can see if you received your invitation um to the HR roundtable uh indirectly maybe someone forwarded it to you or um maybe you saw it on LinkedIn um and you would like to receive invitations to the upcoming HR roundtables To be part of our forum, we try to do it monthly. I would love for you to do it. Just enter my contact information in the chat window.

Send me an email and I'll make sure you're in our. regular mailing list um we still have time for a few more questions if you want to ask you already have the panel can I add something? Yes, please do it. I was going to say again that we talked a little bit about EAP and I think. You know that companies use EAP in different ways. I'd just like to also say that I think it's important for companies to have other organizations or committees that I'm not aware of that maybe contribute to a culture of well-being, just as we have employee well-being. committees that just focus on promoting and doing wellness activities, whether it's sports activities or weight, laws or, you know, going on a hike, that kind of thing.

We also have employee recognition committees, so you really know that our volunteers in the organization that just recognize their peers well and then we make a big production out of that and people talk, you know, about the good work that their peers and that is published in the newsletters, so I think it is a kind of promotion of people from within. It's also very important, so it doesn't just have to come from HR or above, so I think promoting that culture from within the company is important. It's great advice. I just want to add to that, actually, there's a lot of evidence that I'm sorry.

I keep talking about evidence that the researcher at heart here, can be seen in my work, but there is actually a good amount of evidence that shows that some of the most effective interventions and strategies within organizational cultures to have Champions in my line work always you know, use Champions to defend, so it's your peers, it's not Apple, it's not senior management or leadership, where we're talking about middle to lower management, we're talking about peers to defend, um, these initiatives , um, and those usually get the most out of it. and um and just bringing um, I think with one piece that's happening in some of those Solutions that we focus on Wellness is bringing enjoyable activities into the workplace and into work life, as well as reminding people to also bring that to their personal lives to remember to have fun to remember to have some pleasure in life and then the other thing that loses it in modern work life is the meaning of all this hustle and bustle while our colleagues were talking to um we're busy busy busy and what We care about that piece of work that we want to do and that keeps getting interrupted, the meaning is sometimes lost and hence the uninterrupted time.

I loved what you were saying about having that uninterrupted time and meeting hygiene because it's so important and also allowing staff and managers to set aside a specific amount of time in their schedules. Some organizations are doing it five percent ten percent 25 that even if we feel like the ceiling is falling on us, we have to set aside this time because that's why we came here that's why we felt like we were working toward a vision and it's what helps us overcome stress what changes perception that makes it not exhaustion we can work so hard for so long if we feel like something is being accomplished we feel like we are part of something that is good and that we want to do we can handle more stress that we can really handle right now if we don't feel good about it if we don't feel Nice if we don't We no longer feel like we are part of a team or that we want to be part of a team or that we no longer like people of the team because now we only fight and compete for the minor resources that we think are left, you took the ink and you have the good coffee maker, so bringing meaning and pleasurable experiences to each other is so important that some companies are even dedicating time to creativity that you block in your calendar and they say that five percent of your time you block it and call.

It's your creative passion and work on something you want that we don't even ask you to work on in this company and then present it to us. Things like that can help too. Roger, can I add you to Dr. Google? Please, um and tying it into today's topic, you know, border and the definition that we had, the number one feeling of exhaustion, right, being busy, number two was really this feeling of negativity, cynicism, yeah, and the third It is feeling that we do not have professional effectiveness. I love what Dr. Goodwill said. about the sense of purpose or meaning that really goes towards professional effectiveness really drives a lot of engagement and now I will say that you are going to deal with a lot of workforce as HR professionals with a lot of Millennials like us. of men is the kryptonite for this millennial generation of workers, we need to keep them engaged by communicating from time to time consistently about how their work is connected, their daily work and contributing to the broader organizational mission, why are they there and? how your piece is a piece of the puzzle but it is an important and crucial piece to this big organizational picture that is bringing some change to the lives of your clients or patients in the healthcare sector and therefore burn up, by definition, it has to have an impact on In the three domains that I said, just one domain is not technically considered burnout, but it is in all three domains and by doing these things as Dr.

Greenwell said beautifully, some of these things can really address at least two of the three domains and we can work on viable dependencies and that could be a very good solution for Burnout because parking thoughts could really be here, it's not Doom and Gloom burnout can be prevented burnout is not seen but you can see it with data, so all you need is a little organization. commitment to offering to ask and follow not only the offer, but also making sure that people can access it, we can follow it and that they get everything in a timely manner, in the most personalized and meaningful way, and not just in one size . fits well, sounds fantastic, thank you all so much, um, rocker Shannon and Brian Chang from Greenwald, we thank you so much, this has been tremendous, all of you, the video ofthis will be available to you.

We'll also include contact information for everyone here on the panel so you can reach out to them directly with questions or engage them in any way for your own organizations. And as you know, Sharon's credits will be there for joining us and watching this, and we hope to see you all at the next HR roundtable and you'll get an invitation on a regular basis through regular means. Anyone not on the list, email me and I'll get it back to you. Many thanks to the panel. This has been fantastic. Everyone go out and have a fantastic rest of the day and drink some of this.

Advice that you have heard to use with yourself, for your family, for those around you and also to incorporate into your organizations. Here we go, Walter, take us, sir, I think this is the longest blackout in history. Walter was tied up