Die Freimaurer. Mythos und Geschichte

Dear viewers who are at home on their screens, I would like to warmly welcome you this afternoon to the evening event here in the empty hall of the cathedral house for tonight's live broadcast on the topic of Masonic history and myth . A warm welcome to Johannes Lorenz and the workers as head of studies of the Catholic Academy here in the Haus am Dom in Frankfurt. The coronavirus crisis offers several visions of environments that have always existed but that have not been in the public eye for approximately half a year. With the coronavirus pandemic, how long have you been in the public eye?

There are more and more complete words on various online platforms in which so-called conspiracy theories or conspiracy myths circulate. The current explosiveness of the topic becomes evident. An interim study published in 2009/10 assumes that a significant proportion of the population is close to conspiracy myths, although with different nuances. A popular motif within mythical conspiracy discourses is that of the so-called Jewish-Masonic world conspiracy. Behind closed doors or in secret rooms, the real destiny of the world is determined by influential Jews and/or Freemasons. Tonight we will look especially at these Freemasons to see if, of course, the idea of ​​the Jewish world conspiracy would also be less important.

The Masonic conspiracy narrative has been deeply etched in cultural memory. By the way, not only since today has it become much more widespread, at the beginning of the 20th century. On the other hand, also the Nobel Peace Prize. Literature Thomas Mann naturally assumed in a diary entry of his that the First World War was influenced, among other things, by the Freemasons, a motif that became widespread after the First World War. Thomas Mann himself uses Italian humanists and Freemasons in his famous Magic. Lodovico mountain you templin ii appearance that passionately expresses differences of opinion with the jesuit nafta it is certainly no coincidence that a freemason competes against a jesuit in this novel goethe belonged to the freemasons as did marc chagall winston churchill or wolfgang amadeus mozart what's up with this mysterious?

Lodge The Freemason about himself What is myth, what is truth and what is the relationship between Freemasons and Christian churches? Last year, Herder publishing house published a small paperback titled The Myth and History of the Freemasons, written by my colleague Dr. Michael Puhlmann. By the way, he does not have the first book of his on this topic. Matthias Pöhlmann and I are co-workers, so we speak to each other only for information. I asked him if he would like to talk. late 2009 10. It was still unclear where we would be now. I am very happy, Matthias, that you said you would be with us tonight.

You will join us live from Munich. Hello Matthias, thank you very much. Thank you very much for the invitation and I think it's good that we can at least see each other like this before we start. Briefly for information, I will have a short conversation with Matthias Pöhlmann where we will try to create a sketch of the three bricklayers and give them their initial information, some ideas, details, etc. As viewers, you have the opportunity to participate in the chat. Simply post any questions or comments you have on our YouTube Chad. I'll try to include your questions over the course of this.

Before we begin, I will introduce you to Matthias Pöhlmann. Matthias Pöhlmann studied Protestant theology in Heidelberg and Munich. He worked as an assistant in several theology chairs. He received his doctorate with a thesis on apologetics in the Weimar Republic. Matthias Pöhlmann was a scientific advisor at the Protestant central office for worldview issues in Berlin, responsible for the topics of occultism, spiritualism, esotericism and Satanism and in 2014 he was a member of the Evangelical Lutheran sects. and worldview issues Bavarian Church Matthias Pöhlmann is currently very present in the media, especially because of his experience on the topic of conspiracy theories, conspiracy myths and his experience on the topic of right-wing esotericism.

Yes, dear Matthias, I am. I really want to talk to you. I thought about the first question, a bit as an introduction. You were active in the ECB because of Satanism, among other things. I already explained to you how you came to the subject of the Freemasons, what it was. Why, so to speak, delve deeper into this topic? Yes, it was mainly around this time that I received inquiries. At that time I was a speaker at the Protestant central office for ideological issues where I began to work. 1999 and there was a dusty old multi-page pamphlet about real art in mass society from 1976 and I thought that it can't be sent or transmitted anymore because it was already very old and outdated and that's when I realized that there would really be to revisit the issue.

Then the Protestant church in Germany released me from service for three months and during that time I did intense research on the Freemasons, but I had conversations with Freemasons and also made a visit. to the German Museum of Freemasonry in Bayreuth and thus a publication arose that in 2005 received the title Secret Men of the Freemasons in Germany and since then the topic has stayed with me and I found it interesting. Precisely the Freemasons also took note. Then they invited me to give lectures at the meetings with great intensity, but I don't have a new ritual either, as they say, but I have a very interesting vision. , yes, and since then the topic has occupied me and I also find it very charged in terms of culture, history and work for others, also in terms of worldview, which means that as a theologian you have also found open arms to investigate this. subject scientifically as objectively as possible At first, the reserves were quite large at a Masonic site.

I remember a visitor at the German Masonic Museum in Bayreuth, where I knocked on the door and said I would like to use the library here too. That was the first response, I'm sure you don't understand the Masonic ritual texts well, but then a conversation arose. I didn't understand the ritual text, but I also received them on other sofas, but that was also the beginning. During my research I found some interesting things. Freemasonry also has importance in cultural history, partly in the local history of many towns and then of course also through the presence of country houses, so it is an exciting story. course planned under corona conditions and was finally planned here in the room with around 35 people who should have registered in advance the event was already full in September there was no more space for this event I made a small attempt at explanation in my introduction In this At the moment the media is shouting about the conspiracy.

I would like to hire the expert. Questions from Matías. How do you explain that today at an event at the Catholic Academy this topic is so in demand that it generates such a broad response? ? This has to do with the fact that the Freemasons are, on the one hand, a very discreet society, which means that they know very little about what they actually do, what the symbols mean and, of course, what they have been. They have been the subject of conspiracy stories since the founding of their organization, which is why they have been recognized as having such a powerful influence on society as a whole.

Yes, they were almost seen as a big threat and I think a lot of people now have an interest. To know what secular Freemasonry is now and was also said in the introduction, especially of course through fictional material like Dan Brown, let's think about the lost symbol in these novels where he finally formulated a kind of declaration of love to the Freemasons. In the lead up to the book, Freemasons were very afraid because books like Illuminati or then there would be the Vinci Code and then you were a little surprised and now you still remember the voice of a Freemason who made a journalistic statement.

He said that the way the Freemasons are described in this book would be clever, significant and influential, a touch of self-irony, how do you see the influence? In the esoteric scene, which also has a certain influence on contemporary consciousness, there are publications in the context of esotericism, especially in the area of ​​so-called right-wing esotericism, where supposed high-ranking Freemasons break down and then report on the true background. I think this is very questionable. What is partly happening here is that. It feels like there are such dark machinations or a potential threat. It must be said that modern esotericism today is, on the one hand, an everyday phenomenon.

We find it in the form of books, in courses and workshops and perhaps in all of them. You know someone in your circle of friends who deals with these issues in some way and I am surprised that in this context there is also the so-called right-wing esotericism, in which individual authors influence this scene with their works and ultimately , they suggest a potential threat in the Freemasons. I'm just seeing the first post in the chat, I'm going to look it up, dear viewer, we'll get to the point of talking about what the Freemasons really do and what they are like.

I wanted to outline the whole thing a little. We'll get to the main point in a moment, but I think that with some sketches from the outside of the whole phenomenon you can perhaps get a better idea of ​​the influence on the book that Leo Taxi, perhaps the most famous fake news producer of the 19th century, had on the conscience of the time. The Catholic Church also had a very strong influence on the Pope and his perception of the Freemasons. In 1896 a congress was held in. Trent, which was summoned by the Taxi itself, in which many high dignitaries were also represented.

That same year, in 1896, the Cologne newspaper denounced the Diario Popular de Cologne as a fraud and it was later discovered what influence Matías had written about Taxi. the image of the Freemasons at the end of the 19th century and the beginning of the 20th century. So I think that these so-called labels should not underestimate the scam of him, a lot of this still has an effect, above all, I would like to say in the traditionalist sense. In Catholic and Evangelical Christian circles they say yes, the lower ones, especially the Freemasons, have no idea about the higher rituals, basically satanic or Christian rituals are committed and I come across such accusations again and again also because ultimately , so to speak. , when the stories turn and then they played a very important role and if you look closer at the taxi, he was a publicist who was initially raised so ethically here, but then he became a radical freethinker and he did it very skillfully .

Then he let himself be served, so to speak, by the Catholic Church. He was also there or provided them with material against the Freemasons. So far he finally let the hoax break out, so it was undoubtedly intense fake news. Because we could make a first attempt to delve a little deeper into the content. There was already a question in the chat about what the Freemasons were before maybe looking at the content, what exactly does that term mean, what does it really mean? are different Derived variants refers to the so-called Mason who worked in the flow of an art or decorative stone in the construction of church cathedrals, for example, that is, unlike the so-called Bradley, he had to have special artistic skills and knowledge.

There is then a second conceptual historical derivation that we have just said: these are, so to speak, the Freemasons who were not necessarily linked to the local urban guilds. They had the privilege of traveling freely, unlike the Freemasons. urban guilds, a certain independence and you also had to make sure to protect the know-how, that is, the professional secrets and what that means, if someone has just been hired by a guild of this type, then they had to identify themselves using certain passwords and tricks so that professional secrets are not divulged and this is also a form that also has an impact on the so-called current symbolic painting, Freemasonry.

It can be said that the Freemasons ultimately have their roots in the brotherhoods of medieval stonemasons. and over time there have been changes that in these shelters they house that is actually the construction site and next to it, the meeting later that day. suddenly I would also like to say that they welcomed people who were no longer necessarily bricklayers, but that this union has now become a symbolic point, what was the attraction of becoming one of your guilds, a traveling guild, a mobile guild if it can be said that, generally speaking, it had an advantage, yes, for Of course, it was also an independence, ultimately freedom to travel, that you could create special works of art or a cathedral, that was basically, you could say, the technical elite. as far as the construction and architecture sector is concerned, I think it was a special prize, a special prize if you could land there and, of course, there you also have these very clear classics, such as apprentice, journeyman and master and the Then, the teacher also completes a drawing, that is, the draft, the plan.

Everything that played a role in the Polish and in the ritual was transferred, so to speak, spiritually to the rituals of the Freemasons. Also, the Freemasons of that time, of course. He particularly referred to the temple of King Solomon in Jerusalem and today they say that the Freemasons are working on the construction of the temple.Temple of Humanity, which means that the entire Jerusalem Temple declaration also plays an important role in the Masonic tradition, which means that a kind of spiritual transformation has occurred that today no longer primarily distinguishes Masons as craftsmen, but as ritual work in an imaginary cathedral, something like that, a little more can be said about what really happens in Masonic lodges, that is, the Freemasons will say that, above all, they work. about his own personality which should not be misinterpreted as a self-salvation strategy but rather that a reasonably good person should become a better person and that is, so to speak, an exercise that is practiced in these logicians, on the one hand.

It is, I would like to say, the experience of the rituals of the symbols in the corresponding rituals and on the other hand it is about practicing the virtue of the Secret, which means a relationship of trust with the brother, as the brothers refer to it. each other and ultimately it is about these basic values ​​of humanity, tolerance, equality, brotherhood and could also include charitable social activities. That's what the Freemasons are, in contrast to service clubs like Rotarians and Lions, which are perhaps a little secretive. They are basically Enlightenment ideals that were especially attractive in the early days, because I would like to say high-ranking personalities, noble officials, merchants, who had the opportunity to exchange ideas about new ideas under the protection of the lodge. to practice sociability and that confidentiality was maintained here.

It must be taken into account that organized Freemasonry is conventionally dated to the beginning of the 18th century. Basically there is no exact historical evidence. Some researchers say there is basically no founding date. Traditionally it is dated to the year 1717, more recent research says that it was probably in 1721, in that year several lodges in London were united into a large unit and which is conventionally known as the prelude to the founding of organized Freemasonry. We only have the date as 1721. A possible foundation date is mentioned because later in the book he learns that in 1723 there was already a vacancy for people of different religions as members of the Masonic lodges.

That's almost revolutionary. How did they come together ideally? Today we are, so to speak, a democracy with a democratic minimum. I think this is also related to the experiences of recent years and decades, the so-called wars of concessions, the experience that different religious views lead to wars and conflicts and the I had just tried. You can meet these logical people at eye level in a protected area, you can exchange ideas without risking being reported or attacked. This is so common today that there are discussions about religions in lodges. the sense of confessional disputes or even political disputes in the sense of partisan politics are frowned upon.

Ultimately, one wants to have harmony in the lodges around him because he can no longer find a new bone of contention and that is often the case. Naturally, at the beginning of the 18th century the Freemasons added new spiritual philosophical ideas to religion and politics. And this was also intensely observed and discussed in these lodges by the intellectuals of the time. A kind of mini-democracy experiment. This perception was also true for many aristocratic and monarchical-minded people. They were part of the Freemasons and I find it difficult to imagine that, as a noble, you would actively cut off your own branch if you projected this democracy. mini-project, so to speak, and I interpreted it the way I'm doing it now as a wood engraving, so I think you initially assumed that they were Freemasonry is about the person and we have to see that when we look more than near.

In the history of carpentry, especially in Germany, kings and later also emperors quickly became the protective helmet of Freemasonry. Some of them were Freemasons, like Frederick the Great. So nothing changed in the system, in the end the system remained as it was. Probably more important was the intellectual exchange in the protection of a lodge and that was also perhaps something important for that time as a form of sociability and it parallels that until now. Many converts and notes and groups where the exchange and the Freemasons have also promoted this very strongly with their ritual and symbolism.

On 17.42 I was informed that there was a first lodge in Frankfurt am Main, perhaps another two sentences. Already at that time there were tensions over the relationship between the Masonic lodges and the state structure. Of course, very quickly in the church there was criticism and then there was also a decree from the medical point of view where the fundamental incompatibility was also established, that is, a Catholic cannot really be a Mason because the Masons are looking for him. That's what it was supposed to be. The concerns were directed against the Church and that is why over time it became so established that a Catholic who is a Mason is finally excommunicated, so the Codex Iuris can dispense with it. in 1738, this was valid for several decades until the Second Vatican Council, where Freemasons were no longer explicitly mentioned in the new code, but in the end it remained that I was Catholic and it was discovered that I had committed a serious sin. although it is no longer automatically excluded, but the issue itself can still come into play later with a view to the relationship of Christian churches with women.

I think this is very important and I think we will talk about it again. I'll try. To follow up on what you just said, I wanted to take a closer look at some aspects of the content. You've talked about the fact that rituals and symbols play an important role and it's a form of self-defense. the individual. Can you go into a little more detail about what these symbols are, which are very strongly linked to... Artisans the dangers of artisans it is important to remember again what they mean and what they are like, so to speak, ritually? embedded in this process of self-assessment Yes, these symbols that I said before are taken from the architecture and the rituals of the Freemasons are greatly influenced by these symbols, so ultimately the legacy of the operative Freemasons lives on.

Freemasonry that is very reminiscent of this tradition, the term lodge, building cabin, mason, draft angle, measure and blade, thus angle, precisely that the right angle and the blade are those, of course, typical Freemason symbols that sometimes they see each other in the lodges, which means that the note can also be understood in such a way that the circle of humanity is expanded, so to speak. The right angle means that the Freemason must act righteously and, so to speak, ethically. Well, also at the beginning of a Masonic path it is said that the rock ultimately represents the previously unworked personality and at the end there must be a fine stone, so to speak.

That's the ideal image, so to speak, but the Freemasons say that. Of course, they are always seekers and will continue to be so, Freemasonry speaks. Also above the so-called three great judges is, for example, the Bible, also known as the book of the law, which is open on the altar in the German boxes and this is also the seat of the teacher, who is the leader, so To say a dejected person, there are also symbols of light, the flaming star, for example, which is also the symbol of the transcendent. It is significant for Freemasonry that, on the one hand, it postulates a great all-powerful architect of all worlds, but there are no statements about the current situation of the worlds of this master builder, which is why we do not want to give dogmatic guidelines, we really want to do It is possible for people of different world views and religions to meet and someone who is to be accepted into this Masonic lodge must again be a follower of God, so the old duties have been formulated.

These are, so to speak, the basics. law of Freemasonry, so to speak, of English Freemasonry. It should again be one denial of God, another, so to speak, to be a libertine in religious matters, so do not be sectarian. Then, of course, we also have work. symbols such as angle, measure, plumb line, spirit level, that is, the symbol that is on the same level, of course, there are also numerical symbols, prime numbers 3, 5, 7 and 11, which play a role in the individual . rituals, then that means that these are very different symbols that also come from the series of works.

And of course there is also the chain of brother, which is perhaps important to mention, which is also carried out symbolically at the end of each ritual work, which means that you are in the chain of brothers and for many Freemasons that is also a fascinating idea that It encompasses the global brotherhood, which means that if you travel abroad you can knock on a door and then have access to a profession that you are friends with and Maybe there is another phrase. I know this is an area where outsiders don't really have access, but you said that before, somewhat casually.

You still have access to the ritual texts, how should I imagine ritual work like that? Songs are sung. How does this self-defense process work? Could you give us some thoughts on this? Freemasons also talk about the so-called temple, so let's begin. Maybe we start with the lowest ritual, with the so-called acceptance. ritual, when a seeker is supposed to become a seeing person. That is the so-called initiation, which means that someone who wants to become a Mason has to apply, so to speak, and then the lodge decides on admission, which is what happens. The so-called ball happens to them and if the result is equal to white balls, then it is a little more difficult for Gutmann's black ball logic and then the candidate in question is accepted.

The so-called apprentice ritual occurs, that is. that first I have to put the candidate in a chamber so that he sits alone and writes his thoughts on www, the reasons why he wants to become a Freemason and other things and then they take him blindfolded and take him to the so-called temple where the Other members of the lodge also take place and everything has to happen. You can imagine an exchange of conversation between the teacher, who is, so to speak, the leader of the slide and the assigned teachers and this always takes place according to a certain ritual.

The master from the chair also carries the hammer which means he opens, directs and closes the sessions and there is a corresponding ceremonial where these texts also determine exactly how he says what then happens to the apprentice and finally at the end the apprentice is told. remove the blindfold and see the light, so to speak, which is why some also say that the Freemasons are a kind of cult of light and that a seeker has become a seer and many Freemasons say that this particular experience was very important for many and that also unites the brothers among others that brings it together.

It is ultimately an initiation ritual, the second ritual is like the so-called official ones at this time and this is also the time of wandering, which means that in this ritual you are. promoted to officer and this is also the time when you learn other readings of Freemasonry. In Germany we also have many different readings and at the end there is the so-called elevation to master and which is basically more of an elevation. type of yoI would call it psychodrama, where the death of King Solomon's long builder in the temple, who has just been murdered by officers who wanted to take the master's word from him and who is then, so to speak, dramatically recreated in this psycho ritual and that is precisely the third degree.

The state must also revolve around the themes of death and transience. You can also collect memento mori, that is, you must also become aware of your own mortality and that is, so to speak, the third degree. degree and with that conclude the so-called blue masons, the hello Hannes Maurer Rey are, so to speak, the three basic levels where the greats in Germany say that they all ultimately go beyond this they are not complementary but perhaps they are more deep The fact that the chain of brothers is an element that aims to express the global tension of brotherhood has already been discussed.

Another element is the secrecy or secrecy that such a cover represents. In criticism of the Freemasons one often sees or hears the question of what. the tension is actually about being or being close to the humanist ideal, on the one hand, of enlightened transparency, of embodying, so to speak, on the other hand, this secret and, yes, of the lack of transparency, of magic , to say something provocative. in fact, a tension that continues to this day. The Freemasons themselves say that okay, if someone now has the ritual texts, ultimately it is not a secret that can be revealed to many Freemasons.

They say that the true secret of Freemasonry lies in experiencing the rituals and that. Of course, it's very subjective and ultimately can't be revealed in that sense. However, it must be said that secrecy can also serve a bit to cultivate self-image, so that's what I look at. Also people always tell me a little. with a smile, well you already know a lot about Freemasonry but maybe there is more that you don't yetyou know, so there's always a bit of flirting and on the other hand you have to say. In recent decades, Freemasons have greatly increased their efforts to provide information about their own concerns.

There are many books, some of which were written very quickly by Masons. For example, there is this book by Philip Glass Freemasons in 60 Minutes or Freemasons for Dummies, yes. also a volume and also books that aim to take into account Freemasonry, that is what it says or that is how it is written. On the one hand, the best personality training in the world is, of course, a little ambitious and brave and there are those. some researchers who also belong to the Freemasons. But they are Freemasons themselves and it always surprises me that they are very secretive and secretive, especially when it comes to rituals.

Even when I published my pamphlet back then, several men also wrote the rituals that. way and it was given to me by a knowledgeable Mason who appreciates it very much and does not give it away at all, but now candidates who want to be apprenticed in a lodge, so to speak, always staple the closed pages where the second and third degrees are described and then has it. So please don't remove the parentheses until you have become the master, so to speak, otherwise you will kill yourself from the experience. Yes, you can see that this. The tension between secrecy and publicity still exists and will not be resolved so quickly.

I've noted time and time again in roundtables with Freemasons, there can also be a generational issue, especially when it comes to advertising. panel discussion that an older and a younger Freemason were on the podium and a younger Freemason said we have to do more public relations work, we have to reach out to people more, that's very important and the older Freemason sat back and He said no. It is not necessary for anyone to look for us and find us. So it was still the district, so to speak, while researching beforehand I discovered a website where a young Mason also criticized this practice of secrecy and opined that.

In reality, it should be abolished slowly. Then there was a lot of criticism, so you can see that the Freemasons themselves are arguing among themselves and that is also a good sign, you yourself write a book about the structural differences. Freemasons are not the same as Freemasons. There are different logic systems of different degrees, maybe just a quick look. This takes us back to the 18th century. The so-called Illuminati Order emerged in the context of a conflict and many myths and sayings, perhaps another, are also intertwined in it. phrase about the dominant north because it is also closely related to Freemasonry so the foundation of the Illuminati Order leads to Bavaria to Neustadt Weishaupt was the founder and it can be said that these Illuminati places were intended as an anti-semitic anti-foundation, that is to say. a kind of radically enlightened colorist with his own system of degrees and who, of course, was in a way a competition for Freemasonry.

There were also the so-called middle Rosicrucians, but of course that was largely the case with the Illuminati man. Doses actually tried to infiltrate on a large scale, but then the Bavarian state banned the Illuminati because they said these activities had to be stopped and ultimately banned and they also had a different approach, so to speak, an internal grade system. and also their own ritual and that of course had an impact story that is also assumed in conspiracy stories that the Illuminati would still exist today or is it that one thinks that the symbols of the Illuminati are on the US dollar, for example. discover a note, that's strange.

So can you say something briefly? Yeah, the problem is a little bit with this one or one US dollar bill on the back with this pyramid that in the end you don't fully understand the symbols and that's how it was. natural So there is always a field of activity for conspiracy stories and for imaginative creations. First of all it must be said that the back with this symbolism also represents the so-called all-seeing eye, so it is also an eye. The Christian symbol, which means, so to speak, the Trinity of God again needs to be clarified and ultimately means that basically this symbolism points to the Freemasons or the Illuminati, some say it may have to be said that way.

At the top of the pyramid is the symbol of the seeing eye as a frame for the pyramid. Above, the inscription anno is below with the inscription no wo otto c chlorination and this observation is always a source of speculation and conspiracy stories, as a result of which it is claimed that the year actually refers to the founding year of the Illuminati, 1776. Therefore, the inscription on the sock means a new order or a new order for the time, a new world order and if you look at it more closely you have to say that only with these letters that are also mentioned do you want to decipher a and again how hot food is supposed to come from.

What is overlooked, however, is that with these letters there are a total of 120 possible combinations and perhaps that is the case. It is also correct to say that this number 1776 represents the year of the declaration of independence of the USA and of the 56 signatories at least 15 were declared Freemasons like Benjamin Franklin and the 13 steps of the pyramid that you see, there are 13 steps up The Illuminati sites represent nothing more than the 13 American founding colonies and the pyramid, which is unfinished at the top, is intended to clarify or symbolize the hope that the United States will continue to develop, a hope.

And of course, now that Trump has been eliminated, Android lyrics are becoming even more current. It is a modification of a reggae phrase. Rossini's word-for-word translation means that he blessed what he started and this letter also corresponds to the so-called seeing eye, which can also be seen. be the triune God of Christianity by mistake and therefore these 13 founding colonies are under the protection of God or divine protection and this translation of sectors of the Novus Ordo as I said that of course inspires conspiracy stories literally means reorganization of the ages and not It means nothing more than the fact that with the democratic founding of a state in the USA there was a turning point in the sequence of centuries, so in this regard there are no secrets, but basically it is clear that it is about the democratic foundation of a State and that, So to speak, also the connection with God with commerce.

I'm trying to address religion. Matías spoke of how the Catholic Church had already vehemently opposed Freemasonry in the 18th century. We have the symbol of the eye of God. Also in Freemasonry, which obviously has a Christian origin, we have the Temple of Jerusalem as a symbol, we have rituals such as we have candles, we have an initiation, we have many elements that have a religious touch, at least I would. So far we know that the Catholic Church remains officially skeptical of the Freemasons, perhaps only two key points of the CC of 1917 followed the strict condemnation.

It is always the question of dual membership. the threat of excommunication for dual members After Vatican II, the relationship improved somewhat due to the openness toward religious freedom that the Vatican Council brought. However, the tone improved significantly shortly before the 19 ce provocation of the new. Code, there was a statement from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith in 83 that not much had changed in the relationship with the Freemasons and there was a statement from the German Bishops' Conference that was based on 7 or 8 years of discussions. Obviously it developed in a very good environment, so to speak, the general condemnations were overcome, but in the end the conclusion was reached that there are many reasons to still rule out double membership. on the one hand, the image of God The Freemasons, so to speak, have on the table an image of God with a builder of the world initially indifferent to religion and, on the one hand and on the other, the Christian image of God with a God He addresses the world to talk about a dialogic relationship between God and man, which may be important.

The other reason is the question of personal change, which in Freemasonry is carried out in some way with the help of rituals of values ​​and the Christian faith is already very closely linked to a dialogic grace that solves the problem. There is a current book by a former Vatican diplomat, Michael Heinrich Weninger, which advocates for a definitive improvement in relations between the Catholic Church and the Freemasons. Again, how do you value Matthias as a theologian and positions 1? I mean, the Protestant Church represents a different position but at least the central element for you, if I may put it that way, is the Bible at the center like us.

You take a position on what I just explained. Yes, I think that ultimately in Freemasonry it is about an implicit religiosity presented on the one hand, of course, religious echoes can be found in the rituals and in the words of the great builders. However, Freemasonry attaches great importance to the fact that it is not a church, it is not a religion and it does not administer any sacraments. This criticism is above all The Catholic Church also made accusations such as relativism and subjectivism. , and the Masons also carried out acts similar to the sacraments. That was basically a counterattack, where the Freemasons then said that we didn't really feel properly understood, which is interesting.

You've mentioned this new work here, this dissertation. A few years ago Klaus Kottmann published a canon law dissertation on Freemasons and the Catholic Church. The extent to which these views apply to the Catholic Church in particular was also wonderfully set out in this work. This was due to certain circumstances. at that time, I think you have to see that this is also part of the historical analysis and Kottmann and now also this recently published Austrian dissertation written by an Austrian in Guyana also tries to achieve understanding and that perhaps a door has been opened again. for a dialogue I see Freemasonry itself as a form of masculine spirituality.

I always enjoy discussing it with the Freemasons for the Protestant Church the problem actually did not arise at all because many Protestant theologians were Freemasons Matthias Claudius that the question According to my research, A relationship between the Protestant Church and Freemasonry arose for the first time, so to speak In the 1920s, as sometimes happens with church committees, this decision was postponed somewhat and then taken up again in the 1970s, in 1973, where there was an official women's discussion group with representatives of the Protestant Church. in Germany and the Grand Lodges of the United Church of Germany have met several times and I find it interesting that a fundamental contradiction cannot be established here, that is, a Protestant Christian can be a Mason and vice versa, but and that perhaps also be an interesting point was raised by the Protestant participants in the discussion raised the question of to what extent this personality functions that perhaps it could not diminish or diminish the message of justification, that is, what it means to live by grace alone in faith alone through God, that perhaps a mechanism of human participation will be introduced through the back. door, so to speak, and on the other hand the Protestant participants in the discussion asked the Freemasons to make their concerns more visible to counter the conspiracy stories that already existed then, as I said in the 1970s.

I think there are unanswered questions . You also have to discuss with the Freemasons and the big ones also have a different form than what we have in Germany. We have, so to speak, the main leadership, this is the so-called humanitarian leadership that simply says that we are. On the other hand, we also have religions, the state grand lodge of the Freemasons of Germany, the so-called Masonic Order, which in its structure is basically similar to a Christian knight system, which very strongly emphasizes Jesus Christ and must be seen by the applicant like a senior teacher, so to speak.

Of course, this always leads to discussion within large systems. I imagine a discussion that took place a few years ago when a representative of the so-. called man with ears accused this masonic order of being intolerant if they are not non-Christian includes it in his lot he sat down first but then the discussion continued and then the coordinating organization the great united räschen of germany then also spoke of not In the work we also have to live tolerance if we really want to take it seriously there or there. There are decidedly atheist lodges, which is why in Germany it is said that basically everyone respects it: one should not be an absolute believer in the people of God.

Of course, now you can look at a person's heart. Maybe it looks different and then we have to look now. The Germans are greatly influenced by English Freemasonry. On the other hand, there is English Freemasonry. variant of Freemasonry, which of course is also related to the secularism of France, where religion is seen from the beginning in a very critical way and when we come into contact, for example, there are people who do not give great importance to religion. a book about himmastery book, but it has blank pages, so you don't want to make any specifications. Yes, Matthias is slowly approaching the finish line and I take a quick look at the chat and things are going well.

What we want is being debated and I would like to address a question: how do Freemasons position themselves as pioneers of the Enlightenment today in the 21st century? Yes, it's a really exciting question. and this question concerns Freemasonry today and to what extent the Masonic concerns of Freemasons can still be lived out today at the beginning of the 21st century because of course we live in a time where radical enlightenment always ultimately occurs . Role playing, but we have to get started. singing that this and all this conspiracy narrative unculture that is not so easy and that is where the Freemasons say that ultimately we need places where we can also practice trust where people can meet on equal terms and you have to make it clear to yourself that there are There are around 15,000 Freemasons in Germany, not that many, so basically no major contribution to society as a whole can be expected.

I don't think they want that either. Of course, they want to defend the spirit of enlightenment as well. In the spirit of Tolerance They are particularly involved in Frankfurt. I know that I eliminate Frankfurters and they also participate in social and charitable activities, so for example the rental income is used for good purposes because they cannot make a profit. , but in reality it is the question of what future Freemasonry will have, perhaps it can be said that in recent years the numbers have been able to increase with great caution, but in general at a global level it must be said that there is a very strong decrease.

How is it possible also in a time of rapid individualization and digitalization to what extent is it still possible to hold on to perhaps old traditional rituals and beliefs but there are Freemasons who say no, we know that Freemasonry is voluminous and will continue to be voluminous? and that it still exists, perhaps that is also one of its secrets. I wrote the question myself, but it also comes here in the chat. I read just before. There was a short answer, but I would ask you again for a detailed answer. Matthias, yes, are you there? The boxes are now purely men's clubs.

I think that is an important question that we must ask ourselves today. How does it look? It is about the women's issue in this regard. Yes, that is always a topic I discuss with Freemasons over and over again and we always will. give different answers or give the same answer over and over again. First of all, it is said, well, if now the women, so to speak, both rituals there will be some work, so to speak, on the inner workings of a lodge. It is also said that men and women would experience the rituals differently. On the other hand, it is pointed out that, logically, there are also women who practice skyrunner.

This may be surprising to some people. In numerical terms, they are not. large, but lodges of sky makers have also been formed in several cities in Germany. In Germany there are around 600 Freemasons. The age is also much younger than that of men. At the celebration of the so-called 300th anniversary in Hannover. The grand masters of the male Masonic lodges were represented, but also the grand master of the female Grand Lodge of Germany, which means that they are now trying to work outside the so-called temples where the rituals take place and inviting each other . to the Großräschen meetings But I have also just heard from women who say yes, we are coming back as Freemasons and we would like to do our work in the temple for two years.

In addition, there are also so-called mixed lodges. , which are considered irregular from the perspective of the English Grand Lodge and are mostly influenced by the French Frankish empire, I think it can also be asked from a Christian point of view. faith is based on the assumption that men are one in Christ, there is neither male nor female. And to what extent does this fit? Of course, one can also ask: where are there places, so to speak, where men can also exercise their rights? Spiritual exchange. That's what a Mason from the German Masonic Museum told me because I asked him what they found so attractive about Freemasonry and he told me yes, where you can exchange ideas in a slightly more organized way than on the football field. at the community table and I have organized and experienced this in several logic dances, so I and I are really very interested and spiritually awakened men.

I was also deeply impressed by a Mason who was also the boss of a master baker in the Ruhrpott and he says you wouldn't believe how scared he was when I had to make my first drawing in front of the brother Masons. This means a short conference. So you have to do certain tasks in the different levels that you complete and that includes giving a lecture. whether it be about a Masonic symbol or perhaps something from your own professional life, but many people then learn before others. I find it very, very interesting to talk and the culture of conversation that is practiced there, but of course the issue of women is still current.

I can't imagine that the Grand Lodge will now deviate from this practice and the penultimate question, Matthias, we had talked before that there is definitely internal controversy. There are also discussions that there are fermentation processes, what about a critical external perspective that the Catholic Church knows? about, sing a song about it, practice beneficial mistakes, practice cultures, how would you comment on this? If you find something like that in the city, there is not enough media debate about the Freemasons. Is it worth it or how would you rate it? I definitely notice that Freemasons have a culture of internal discussion, so even if, for example, I give a lecture at a Masonic lodge and the topic of religion comes up, that's very exciting, I notice that there are those who react. almost like a religious model and we say no, we are enlightened, we don't want religion to have anything to do with it and others are very interested, and the members of the church are certainly also partly Protestant pastors, they are members of a group or something like that.

They are called predicates and I believe they have had contact with non-Masonic science for many years. There is, for example, the Quattro Nati research trip, the four foundations, which periodically organizes specialized conferences on the topic of the history of Freemasonry. a conference on the topic of the relationship between ritual and worship where you also meet scientists who are not Masons and I see a great willingness to confront these questions and I experience it again and again in the form of exchange meetings. And I also spoke at the 300th anniversary of the Grand Lodge as a national orphan of the three globes in Berlin, which dates back to Frederick the Great, and at the lecture I suggested that it would be exciting again now, after more than forty and fifty years, too maybe seek conversations with The churches and the great teacher immediately said that if the others do not want then I will do it alone, but of course that is a bit of a failure now, but I think the will would already be there.

The question is if that is the burning. The topic now, of course. But I believe that these types of meetings and dialogues with Freemasons are increasingly important in Christian churches, especially to reduce fears. We held a study day in Augsburg, said the Catholic colleague, and after the conference. The discussion we got into also went to the house and people were very interested because it gave them an idea of ​​what Solution House is really like. There are other options on the Day of Open Monuments or the Long Night of Museums in Berlin. The big houses open their doors and they always tell me how big the crowd is and how big the interest is, because here you can have a drink and let it all sink in.

Of course, it's not a ritual, but you get something from the atmosphere. Maybe you have another question. The final question is that these are also practices, so they are not understood negatively, what about the number of members or young talent? This is a sensitive topic in Freemasonry, so in relation to this. Dan Brown Fever, there were a lot of email inquiries to the Lodges, that's what they told me. The question is how sustainable this is. Before you can be properly accepted into a Lodge, a certain amount of time must be allowed for. Guest evenings are also traditionally attended and of course the Freemasons also take advantage of these evenings to invite external speakers, perhaps also to offer an informative and musical evening, so that there is the possibility of meeting the Freemasons in person, but also to know them. let's talk to them and the question is, of course, for the Freemasons, in view of the decline in membership, what path should we take now.

In the 21st century, how do you get men interested in this topic? Talk? In previous years this mainly happened in a personal setting, that is, you were contacted and then a guarantor also endorsed the applicant for the lodge, so this recruitment was started in a personal way, now it plays so well that it really doesn't it matters. Now guest nights and this event are a possibility, where it was always said: if you are interested, please contact us to discuss it with you, attend other guest nights so that later you can notice that he really has a greater interest in this to that they can more or less buy me a pig in a whip and that you can then be admitted in a quick process because now is the right time for the exam from the point of view of Freemasonry, dear Matthias, I think we were able to write a small sketch for so that viewers can have a better idea of ​​what is hidden behind this Freemason term.

Finally, I thought I'd ask a brief question and perhaps answer it too briefly, first of all, to be frank. Are you personally fascinated by Freemasonry and? Secondly, where are you most critical and what was difficult or terrible for you? Aside from that, what I find fascinating about Freemasonry is the idea of ​​the brotherhood of internationality, which when we are Freemasons, the Freemasons keep telling us. What I also really appreciate is Masonic humor, which means you can laugh at yourself too. I miss it in problem groups. There is a nice phrase about sleep, which is also talked about over and over again.

It would be cool if I became brothers and stuff. Second, I have already forgotten the question, it may discourage you more. Oh yes, that is, of course, this style with these rituals and I have already been asked about it. Now you should know a lot about Fielder Civil Freemasonry. Perhaps more than some Freemasons, what stops you from wanting to join this association now? I always say that I love discussions, discussions about politics and religion, that's a good last word, Matthias, yes. Of course, thank you very much. Best regards to Munich. I was so glad you agreed that we could now have this conversation together.

I can also see from the chat and engagement that it generated a very high response. . That makes me very happy. Thank you very much Matthias for the conversation. I would also like to thank you, dear viewers. The viewers would like to thank you very much for your attention in accompanying us on this path in these difficult times. a lot and take care of yourself, stay healthy, thank you Matthias, all the best for Munich, goodbye, the best in the world.