Lee Harvey Oswald's Final Phone Call

Dr. Grover Proctor, what I'm going to do tonight is tell you a story because I found that's the best way to make people understand what happened. And, subtly, in the end, realizing what the importance of that really was. The story we were talking about takes place on November 23, not November 23, 1963 at night, mostly between 10 and 11 pm Dallas time. I'm

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ing the talk I'm giving from Dallas to Raleigh because of the obvious things that are going to come up. But Lee Oswald and the fingerprints of intelligence may sound a little strange. But let me tell you where he came from.

Us. Senator Richard Schweiker was in charge of an investigation in the United States Senate that had to do with the intelligence community and how they responded to the assassination of John Kennedy. And Senator Schweiker came into it with both feet and really began to understand some of the complexities of the case and realize that the answers were not as simple as we had been told. And at one point, he said this quote, we don't know what happened, but we do know that Oswald had intelligence connections everywhere you look with him, there are intelligence fingerprints and as I'm sure you've already realized.

Now, we're not talking about intelligence as in IQ, he wasn't really the kind of dumb waste he was projected to be. What we are talking about is our intelligence. We are talking about the United States intelligence community represented, among others, by the central intelligence agency, the Office of Defense Intelligence, Naval Intelligence and others who find and provide information and analysis so that our country's leaders can make the decisions they need. From everything he saw, he believed that Oswald had the fingerprints of intelligence all over him, and notice that he put it that way, we'll come back to that phrase.

He, I think he did it on purpose. And I, and I'll let you know why after we understand what Oswald himself did while he was in jail, we move on to the situation where, like I said, it's about 10 pm in Dallas and the switchboard room of the Dallas jail, which is on the fifth floor of the municipal building. Um, there were two women working that night, the oldest and the oldest, one of them was Mrs. Louise Swinney and a slightly younger lady who was going to come in and take her shift starting at 11 was Mrs. Alvida Trion .

Now the lady who left at 11 had asked her if she could arrive a little earlier because that lady wanted to leave early. Actually, Mrs. Trion got there around 10 or 3 p.m. She doesn't know exactly what time she got there, but she left the two ladies there, during that 45 minute period, from 10, 15 to 11 p.m. evening. And this is what happened. Mrs. Trion sat at one end of the switchboard. Mr. Swinney was already seated on the other side. I'm sure they had things to say to each other and all the talk people made about the assassination and how terrible it was for the Kennedy family and for the nation and certainly for the city of Dallas and all the other things that could have happened. spoken.

But Mr. Sweeney had something else to tell her, Mrs. Sweeney said that she had been told earlier on her shift that at some point they discovered or knew that Lee Oswald was going to want to make a

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and that at that moment, two men would come up or down. Depending on where they came from to the fifth floor switchboard, they would be admitted, placed in a side room where they could monitor any calls Oswald wanted to make. And then the two ladies found out about it, not long after that, there was a knock on the door, the two men entered.

Mr. Swinney knew how to accept, er, wait to be led into the room and the door closed. And within a minute or two, the red light on the switchboard indicating a call from the jail told them pretty much what they needed to know. Mrs. Sweeney and Mrs. Trion knew this was it, the story goes that the two of them literally in their particular places in the switchboard plugged in their head

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s at exactly the same time. And Mrs. Trion was the first to say number, please. But knowing that Mr. Sweeney was the senior uh uh in, in, in, in um um the hierarchy there and the switchboard and that she felt that Mrs.

Sweeney wanted to handle the call, maybe she had been told how to handle the call, she He objected, but she stayed on the line. Ms. Trion stayed on the line and was able to hear everything that Lee Oswald was saying to Mr. Swinney, he told Mr. Swinney and therefore Ms. Trion, who he wanted to speak to and who he had a call with. to collect. Wanting to know the area code, the person's name and two phone numbers, Mr. Swinney removes the key so Oswald can't hear her, but she is still on the line and connects to the two men sitting in the conference room. teams and tells them everything that Oswald had just said, Mrs.

Trion is sitting there and having heard everything, she is writing down all this information because she and her daughter, once they found out, her daughter was visiting her. , she worked in the same building. Once they found out that there was going to be this connection with Lee Oswald. The daughter said, if this happens, write it down and keep it as a keepsake because it's something we're going to want to remember. So that's what Mrs. Trion was doing, she wrote down everything that Lee Oswald said and the lady when she repeated it to the two men in the next room, now, Mrs.

Trian couldn't hear the two men's response. , but after uh uh a few seconds, Mr. Swinney said, okay or whatever and disconnected the two men in the other room. And Mrs. Trion would later say that Mrs. Swinney was sitting there, extremely nervous, shaking, obviously very agitated about what she was supposed to do next. And that was this. She turned the key on Oswald and said, I'm sorry, sir. No one answered that number, he turned off the key and ended the call. She never attempted to make the call and it almost certainly wasn't her idea not to. The story continues that the two men left the room, thanked them for their cooperation and left.

Mr Swinney stayed until his shift ended at 11 and left at that time or shortly after. And Mrs. Trion had to consider everything that had just happened in the context of everything that had happened in the last 36 hours in Dallas. Oswald did not know when he was making this call that he had 12 hours to live. Mrs. Trion would later say that she was absolutely flabbergasted by the way it had developed, but she had a little slip up and she would keep it and take it with her and not really do anything of significant value with it other than keep it for the family uh for another five years.

Now, let's look at the paper that Mrs. Trion actually wrote. The original slip stayed with the Trion family when they moved to Springfield, Missouri, a couple of years after the murder. And what we have received are photocopies of photocopies of photocopies of photocopies. And you know what happens even with the best machines today, but certainly with the very poor quality or lower quality machines that they had back then. Every time you made a photocopy, things would smudge and become less legible. So I took one of those, the oldest copy I could find of the um of the receipt, digitally remastered it and took out all the junk that was on it so we can see it almost exactly as Ms.

Trion wrote it. . And let's look at the information it contains here. Bottom left ac 919. Well, as Tom alluded to in his introduction, I was reading a book in which this story was told in 1980. And the author Anthony Summers said, and it is reported that Lee Oswald attempted to make a code call. area 919. I lived in Hartford, Connecticut at the time and was working there on a train going to New York City on some business. And I was reading the book and I came to area code 919. And I stopped and said that sounds familiar. And a couple of seconds later, I hope it wasn't much more than that.

I thought that was my area code in my house where I just moved from, in Raleigh, North Carolina, collect in the upper left corner. Obviously that was the only type of long distance call Oswald could have made because there was no way to pay for it. And they were certainly for a prisoner. The city wasn't going to pay for it and then try to get it back. So it had to be a collect call. The first line says he came from jail. Lee Harvey Oswald's second line. Now I'm going to stop here for a second and say, do you realize or understand why we call him Lee Harvey Oswald?

Every time we refer to it. Well, that was his name. Yes, but my name is Grover Belmont Proctor Junior. But no one calls me that. Nobody refers to me like that. Tonight I was not introduced here as his speaker, Grover Belmont Proctor. But think about it. And it took me a little while to realize this, the press got their information from the arrest sheets that were typed on these old manual typewriters that they had in 1963 where it has a space for the person's first name, middle name, last name. . And that is the information that was given and everyone followed it.

And that's why even today, you'll hear these notorious criminals or people arrested for crimes listing all their names when that's not what they remember. He was Lee Oswald and in all my lectures I made it a point to refer to him because that's who he was and that makes him more real. And that makes the situation in Dallas, I think, more real in Raleigh, North Carolina. And there it was, when I found this receipt, it was my hometown, the person named John Hurt and two numbers there on the right, you can read them. I don't need to read them to you. 11 23 63.

And then in the bottom right corner, um D A and C A and those were the codes that Ms. Trion wrote to remember that D A meant, she didn't answer because that's what Mr. Swinney had told Oswald and C A canceled. The call was canceled and not placed and she put Mrs. Sweeney's name on there because Mr. Swinney was the one who did it and that's why that form looks like that. Now, how do we know about this now if it didn't come to the attention of the Warren Commission? And it was not so if Mrs.

Trion packed up this paper and took it with her to Springfield, Missouri, and she lived there the rest of her days, which she did. How is it that we are now gathered here 52 years after the murder, talking about this particular slip? And that's the second act of our story, when Mrs. Trion moved to Springfield, Missouri, a close family friend who lived there in Springfield named Winston Smith helped her, she and her husband and her family moved. over there. And there are at least two people in this in the murder story whose name was Winston Smith, but this is the other one.

Um Winston Smith was a friend of the family and he realizes this in a way one night, in the middle of the winter, December, early January, December, '67 or January '68. Mr. M. Trion invited Winston Smith came to his house for dinner. And during that dinner, she said, you know, you might be interested in something that happened to me that I witnessed at the time of the Kennedy assassination. He said, oh, sure, tell me. And so he did it, he told him everything I just told you, maybe more. But that's all I know on the subject.

And he said all the polite, interested things that people say. and he left and he was tangentially into law enforcement himself. He worked in the records area, uh, for the penitentiary there. And so he knew the law enforcement people and the more he thought about it, he knew that this was not information that should just sit there and not be considered. So he called at the end of January of '68. He called Mrs. Trion and said, I think you should tell the sheriff of Greene County. Um, Mickey Owen, I think he should tell him this story and see if he thinks something should be done.

She said, well, okay, okay. He told her, uh, Sheriff Owen Owen said, yeah, I think maybe he should go and talk to her, and he went and talked to Mrs. Trion, collapsing the story here. He discovered that she wasn't a fool, that she wasn't seeking attention, that she wasn't trying to profit from this. She wasn't, um, the kind of person he felt like he'd be making this up. She seemed like a normal person. In fact those were the two words she used, she listened to the story and told him, I think this is federal, this is the assassination of a president.

This happened in another state. It's not really Green County. I think you should call the FBI office here in Springfield. I think they'll want to talk to you again. She said it's okay. Two FBI agents showed up and interviewed her. She said that they were very interested in what she had to say and that it seemed to her that they had never heard this story before. And almost certainly not, she told him about the long distance or LD phone slip that she had filled out, uh, that night and they said we'd like to see it. She showed it to them and they said we'd like to take it and make copies.

Beverly, does this sound familiar? And then she said, well, sure, but I really want him back because this has become a family thing. And then they agreed and they left and she didn't hear from them for weeks and weeks and weeks. She

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ly called the sheriff and said, I haven't gotten the slip, and fortunately, he was able to create enough of a fuss with the FBI that she actuallywould recover the slip. But the most interesting aspect of this part of the story is that someone during this time, 68 69 we have no idea what the date is, but someone who had heard Mrs.

Trion's story told probably in greater detail than I shared with you. tonight. He sat at a typewriter with legal-size paper and carbon paper and wrote an affidavit as if it had been prepared by Mrs. Trion and as if taking into account everything she had said about what happened that night, this is simply, this is which I am rewriting because now the original affidavit is gone and we only have copies of the copies that were made and now they are copies of copies. Then you couldn't really say anything. But I rewrote this and put it on my website so people can read everything that's there.

You will notice that in the upper left corner it is written for Green County in the state of Missouri. Well, my first thought was that maybe the sheriff did that, but there is no indication that he ever said that he did it and never presented it to him for his signature. Well, then what about the FBI? They knew everything and I'm sure they had taken notes, but why would they have come to Green County? We don't know, but the affidavit appeared and it appeared very, very quickly. And I want to show you how quickly I remember saying that at the end of January Winston Smith called Mrs.

Triana and said, I think the sheriff should come talk to you and she said yes. Good. If we are to believe Winston Smith and everything else it seems to have been met with the approval of the truth police. If we were to believe what he said a week later, a journalist contacted him. OK. Good. But this is what I want you to imagine. Call the sheriff, let's say he calls the sheriff on the exact same day he called Mrs. Trion. And let's say the sheriff ran out that day and let's say the next morning he called the FBI and they ran out that day.

So three days of our week have passed. But when the seventh day came, a reporter called Winston Smith, which means he knew that Winston Smith had told the story and he wanted more information because all the reporters had at the time was this affidavit and a copy of the phone bill. long distance. That journalist had sources somewhere who changed things immediately. The journalist was a man called Ian Calder, Iain Calder. He was British, actually he was Scottish, he worked in the London office of the newspaper where he would eventually work his career. Then they brought it to New York.

He lived in New Jersey, he worked in his New York office and he was the journalist who had heard about this and was pushing for the story to be published because he thought it would be very good for his newspaper. Does anyone recognize the name Ian Calder? He, by the way, after becoming this reporter moved up and when he retired in 2000 from this newspaper, he retired as president and CEO of the entire corporation. This is a man with a lot of common sense and this is him and his newspaper. Now, there's a very short part of the story here that Ian Calder figures in, I'm going to really summarize it, but it has importance beyond the story of the Raleigh call.

That's why I want you to know this story. There was a man named Abraham Bolden and Abraham Bolden among the many other positive qualities and achievements of him. President Kennedy had named him the first African-American Secret Service agent to work in the White House. He was an extraordinary man. And when he worked at the Treasury, they said he had closed more forgery cases than anyone before him. They took him to the White House detail and he was working at the White House detail at the time of the assassination, although not in Dallas, he was in Chicago, which is where he lived and Abraham Bolden calculates this in two ways.

First, he gave a report that still exists about the night of the murder. No, I'm sorry, on Saturday night, Saturday night, remember, the moment the call came through the Raleigh call on Saturday night, a dispatch came to the Chicago Secret Service office. and assumed that everyone ask them to investigate any information they may have about a man named she or her. Hea RD had nothing, she didn't report it. But the other aspect of Abraham Boldin that makes him part of this is that he made statements to people he worked with and people he knew that he was going to testify before the Warren Commission about the lack of performance of the Secret Service up to and including the time of the murder of, um agents being drunk at times when they weren't supposed to use agency cars to travel with women to parties and all the things that we've actually been hearing about the secret service for the last few years. last little bit.

He was going to tell people that. Well, he also said that he had evidence that at least one Secret Service agent had been at least peripherally involved in the planning or outcome of the Kennedy assassination. And he was going to say the name, imagine the surprise of all the conspiracists to learn that shortly after he was arrested accused of soliciting a bribe from a forger whom he was trying to put in jail. They put him in jail and you should read this for yourself. But they treated him exceptionally badly. His wife was threatened with weapons and she followed her children.

They were trying to get him out and trying to get people to recognize that this was not a man who was going to take a bribe, but he was in fact convicted. um, be part of the case to try to find out if Bolden was telling the truth about, uh, everything he said. And also to see if Bolden's claim that there had previously been reports of a plot to assassinate the president in Chicago was correct. A Freedom of Information Act request was made for several documents. And the person who brought that forward used Ms. Trion's phone receipt as evidence that shenanigans were going on and that there were people involved who hadn't been brought in.

And that's how the authors who have been talking about the right call found out. about this slip and the first book it contained, he had obtained it from that issue of freedom of information. So I recommend that, if she is interested, she reads Abraham Bolden's book. Um And he will in that book, reveal the things that he had to go through to try to get the truth out. I'll stop here just for a second to say something I was particularly eager to say that has nothing to do with the right decision, but rather people like Abraham Bolden who, as my grandfather used to say, has a dog in the hunt.

People like me, I read things. I go and look for documents. I interview people. I put words together. I come here, I talk about words, I don't want to say anything. I mean, I can do something good. But my life concerns the Kennedy assassination is only because I have chosen that and, and it chose me and I am doing the work to try to uncover the people like Abraham Bolden, whose lives were on the line whose lives were almost ruined. And you are in the presence of one of those people tonight in Beverly Oliver. And I want you to leave tonight knowing that you have had a special person in your presence tonight.

Think about what she did. She lived when Jack Ruby introduced her to Lee Oswald. When, when the standard line was that the two had never met or met. She had witnessed a President of the United States get his head blown off from 20 feet away and was watching him through a movie camera. She had people coming to her to take away her property. She had people close to her who worked in the same places she literally left off the face of the earth and have never been heard from since. And her fate, literally unknown, living in fear of talking about what happened and what she saw hidden.

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ly, the character that she was undoubtedly born with came out and said, I'm not going to do it anymore. I want to know the truth and I'm going to live my life finding the truth because I was there and I was the one that was impacted by this that Grover Proctor wasn't. I was in seventh grade in high school, but she lived it and she has, she is a beacon to all of us today of strong and brave people and Beverly. It's an honor to have met you tonight. So thanks. That takes us to the late 1970s.

The House Assassinations Committee, a select committee on assassinations, is formed. Um And there's a side to the assassination of John Kennedy and a side to the assassination of Martin Luther King. The John Kennedy assassination side was led by lead attorney Robert Blakey. You'll hear about him again in a minute. They had a great staff and at the beginning they had a lot of money in their budget. And initially the idea was that we would take all these ideas that have been floating around and develop them and see if there's really something to it. Well, with that as his target, a man in a private investigation area, the murder archive and research library, that's what it's called now had a different name and then he went to the archives and found the, or the, no. the original of the affidavit, but the original carbon copy.

And I know it was because I've handled some of it. In fact, I had it in my hand. Um, thanks to them, they photocopied it and sent it to the House Assassinations Committee and, to their credit, they assigned a senior attorney and staff to figure out what was going on. And that's how we got most of the information we have today through his work. Now, I want to warn you that a year and a half later, when Kennedy's final House Assassinations Committee report came out, there was no mention of John Hurt, Alvida Trion, Louis Swinney, or Raleigh, North Carolina.

But that doesn't mean the staff wasn't busy and the lead attorney or the lead attorney for that group, a woman named Brady. Uh, I understand that an extraordinary lawyer produced a lot of work and produced a 24-page report at the end, it never saw the light of day when I started looking into it in 1980. That report was probably about a year and a half old. . No one had ever seen him except the adults. So, as part of my initial research, I contacted Robert Blakey and said, I want to know all that, you know, and he sent me a copy and I've reproduced it.

I've written the full 24 pages plus all those footnotes and it's on my website. So now it's finally published. But this is where we go from here. They wanted to know who the man they were calling was. And here we come to the third act, where we will really reach the climax and find out where we are today. Who was that? John was hurt. That was on that receipt. And why were they there? Two phone numbers? Well, very, very, very, very good question, two phone numbers. So they called the Southern Bell Telephone Company, which was the Bell Regional in charge of North Carolina and other states at the time, and spoke to a woman named Carolyn Raybon.

And that name will always be in my brain because I can't believe the answers she gave to a congressional committee. They gave her the two phone numbers that appeared on that receipt and she answered them and said: I'm sorry. But those numbers are not unofficially listed. They weren't listed in 1963. And since they weren't listed, that means the owner had requested them. And without a court order or a congressional subpoena, I can't give you the associated names. So they had subpoena power, they got a subpoena and they sent it to them. She was very happy and told them that the first number was for John, uh, John D hurt and the second was for John w hurt, both living in Raleigh and that's all the information they had.

Now, I thought it was really strange that both numbers weren't on the list because that wasn't like that, that wasn't done on a whim and by a lot of people at the time, so I had an idea. He was still in Hartford, Connecticut. I call my parents who live in Raleigh, North Carolina. And I said would you do me a favor? Sure. Would you go to the public library? And could you get the phone book from 1963? And could you look up the injured name and tell me what you see and there they were? So I thought, well, maybe, maybe we're dealing with a different timeline.

It doesn't go from January to December. So I said, let's go back about a year because maybe that's the directory that was in effect at that time. Well, no, they are there. Ok, let's move on. Maybe that's when they were. They are not there. And Southern Bell maintained until the end that they were not included on the list. I haven't realized that yet. I never found Carolyn Rayon and I'm sure that when she does, she won't want to talk to me. The middle name presented very few problems to the House Assassinations Committee because they decided to basically ignore it throughout the entire 24-page report.

Sol Brady wrote, mentioned the second phone call exactly four or the second phone number, exactly four times one to say, um, that was on the receipt. OK. Well, we knew it by noticing that it was the number of the two that Winston Smith had memorized when he saw the slip. Well, who cares about that? Um, the third thing was that when they ended up talking to the first injured John, he didn't know that the second John was injured. OK. Who cares? And let's see, the fourth thing wasthat John was injured on Wake Forest Road and he did own that number.

Wow. I mean, that's all they did except a wonderful, award-winning journalist in North Carolina in Raleigh. Um and I published our Raleigh call articles on the same day. Now he had a different inclination than I did, but he did something that none of the others did. He found injured John W, who was a 24-year-old auto mechanic working at a tire retapping business that day. So it's probably not who Lee Oswald was calling, especially when they found out from the House Assassinations Committee who John D Hurt was. And let me tell you who John D hurt was.

First of all. Thank you. Ancestry dot com. We have wonderful photographs that are in this lower left corner. That's, of course, John her on the right uh and her sisters hers in the middle uh Diana and Ruby on the left. So let's focus here on the night of November 23, Lee Oswald. Supposedly a lone nut with no connections to anyone doing this for his own reasons. He decides he needs to call an injured John in Raleigh, North Carolina. John Hurt, who by the way had been a special agent in the counterintelligence division of the United States Army, shades of Schweiker who didn't even know it when he made the statement that Oswald had intelligence fingerprints on him.

Well, he seemed like he was either too good or too bad to be true. So they chased him and it turned out that he was a very, very complicated man. He had been in the military, in counterintelligence during World War II. He served in both Germany and Japan as part of his work in Japan. He had discovered a huge amount of cash in silver bullion that the Germans had sent there as payment to continue in the war. Um That, that depends on him and his work. Um, he had gotten into it after graduating from the University of Virginia with a law degree.

But as he told me when I interviewed him, I never practiced law when his career in counterintelligence ended in 1947, he was offered a commission to remain as an officer and continue working in counterintelligence. And he rejected that and given the way his life was after that, it's probably a good thing because starting in his early fifties and certainly in his mid-fifties, his physical state, mental state, psychological state, uh, and almost any In other words, his health had deteriorated to the point that he could no longer hold down a job. Um, psoriatic, uh, uh, the arthritis had completely taken over his limbs to the point that many of his fingers had to be amputated.

He had, um, uh, let's see, uh, the Veterans Administration had followed him and when the House Assassinations Committee came knocking, this is what they had to say about him. It contained his separation quality record identifying her as having served as an accident and sabotage investigator. He attended military intelligence training school and the eight-week war intelligence course. The file also documented a severe case of psoriatic arthritis that he had suffered from since 1942 and until April 63 he had been classified by the Veterans Administration as 100% disabled. And in fact, the Social Security Administration had labeled him as completely and 100% disabled in 1955, which was when he had his last job and he had to quit because he just couldn't, he couldn't continue.

Um, according to a report of an examination conducted in November of '63 by a Veterans Administration Board of Examiners. Now this is interesting, in November of '63 she goes in for an exam and the VA determines that, quote, this veteran's hand serves no more useful purpose than the amputation in June and in August 64 fingers were amputated on both of them. hands. Her medical history also included treatment for a psychiatric disorder and alcoholism. He was known for making funny calls to politicians, including the governor of North Carolina. Very sad case. When I started talking to him in 1980, I talked to his wife first.

She answered the phone at the same number and wanted to know everything about why I wanted it. It was clear that he was not the first journalist to contact them and of course it was always about the call from Raleigh and I said he was working for Spectator Magazine, which was true. And in fact, our offices were five blocks from the same street where they lived. I was trying to get him to understand that, you know, this is not the call from the National Enquirer. This is someone who is here in your same city. And you know, we know how to take care of our own and that kind of stuff.

And she said, you're a spectator. So that was it and I say this not to put her down, but she literally was so nervous that she couldn't concentrate on what she was saying. But she finally convinced her husband and he denied receiving a call from Oswald, which agrees with what Trion had said. Uh, nor have I ever done one in a Dallas jail cell. And we'll talk in just a second about why that interested them because that was the explanation that was given as to why the phone receipt was there that a fake call came in and it was written on a A piece of paper that some nut called and they gave him the information and then they threw it in the trash.

And Mrs. Trion came and took it out of the bin. I thought it was the call that had come and that's why we have it. But as we'll see in a minute, that can't be the case. John was a little stung by the biography here. The State Bureau of Investigation was very interested in this man due to his attempts to contact government leaders. He was very upset because the governor did not come to his local district meeting even once. And then the governor sent a couple of his aides to go to his house, talk to him, try because, you know, they were in the same party that they wanted him to be in, to understand that the governor was busy, but he really he supported what he was doing and basically it hurt him, he met him at the door, he met them at the door and told them, leave.

And if you come back, I will face you with both barrels of my shotgun. He was not someone that people had a lot of confidence in, who had a focus on reality. Um, this last one at the bottom of the correct diagnosis is manic, depressive, paranoid, and dangerous to society. So that's the man who was called. So the question was: was the call incoming as in a strange call or outgoing? And remember, let's go back to the affidavit one last time, Ms. Trion had never seen that affidavit. Clearly, she came from someone who knew her information, apparently, not entirely exactly, but she knew enough to write 2.5 pages, legal size pages, of what she had said.

So when the House Assassinations Committee decided to move forward with the platform call, he contacted Ms. Trion. They said, well, you know, in your affidavit, you said, she said I never signed an affidavit. I never saw an affidavit, I never gave, they gave me an affidavit and they said, well, well, here we have it. It wasn't signed, but it has your name on it. She says, uh, I've never done it. So she was sent a copy again, a copy of a copy of a copy, and they said, could you tell us what's right and what's wrong?

And for things that are wrong. Could you write in the margins and tell us what is correct? Well, in the original, someone had come up with the idea that Mrs. Trion had gone rummaging through the trash can in the switchboard room after Mrs. Swinney left to look for information to write on that sheet of paper. And the lady, uh, Trion responded, she crossed that section out and it said that she would never have gone to the trash can. She didn't need to go to the trash can. She was listening to Oswald's voice. Tell me the information I wrote down there before that information was known to the public.

All we had was the idea. Well, maybe it went to the trash and maybe there was one chance of error and two or three really big ones. Uh, and respected murder investigators thought that must have been the case because otherwise it didn't really fit her particular pet theory. But we now know that that is not the case and that two women, not just one, heard Oswald give this information and attempt to make this call. So I think we've pretty much decided now that, like Blakey, upon hearing about the corrections to the affidavit, Blakey and Sall Brady and all the other members of the House Assassinations Committee collapsed saying how much they thought the call was real. .

It was the direction leaving the jail that was worrying and possibly sinister in its implications. And now we know they were right. I think I had mentioned Anthony Summers and Robert Blakey Summers is the book I first came across about the 919 area code. I called him. And what he told me in that interview that I didn't tell you before was that he said, you know, I'm sorry, I put it in the book. I said, why think, oh, there goes my, my big story. He said, I'm sorry I put that in the book because the more I think about it, there's no real way to substantiate it and corroborate it and it doesn't sound right.

And you know, everything else in my book is just nail, nail, nail, everything is solid, but that's the only thing. And I said, well, you know, I appreciate it. And certainly, in the article I write, I will certainly show your doubts. And he thanked me and that was it in a week. He had called me back, which was a shock in itself. He called me again and said: I have changed my mind. He had been on an interview panel, I think on the Today Show with G Robert Blakey, the chief counsel to the House Assassinations Committee.

And as they were literally walking through the parking lot, he said to get into their respective cars. Uh Summers mentioned to him about the summons. He's like, you know, I'm sorry, I put that in my book and he was like, and Blakey was like, why? That's one of the most important things we discovered. We just couldn't write about it because we didn't know why Oswald did it. But we are absolutely convinced that he tried to make the call and someone blocked him and it was for, uh, this John D to get hurt and they stood up and talked about it.

And Blakey convinced Summers and Summers to this day. I saw him last year at a conference in DC and he said, absolutely, you know, that's Blakey and you were right. And me, that's the only time my name and Blakey's have been put in the same sentence. But there you have it. So we now come to its purpose. We know that Schweiker said that he had reason to believe that Oswald had intelligence fingerprints all over him. So what does it mean? Why would he have been calling someone who had been in intelligence in the past? What is the connection?

There is absolutely no connection that John David had any known activity related to the Kennedy assassination? There just aren't any out there and he probably wouldn't have been able to do it physically anyway. Well, we called another man. We called a man and I think this is the next slide. Yes, they told us to call Victor Marchetti, who had been one of the senior analysts and was leading the agents of the central intelligence agency who had left, had written a book called The CIA and the Cult of Intelligence, which was the first book in the United States will be subject to censorship prior to publication.

And they told us that if anyone knows what's going on and why Oswald would have called injured, he would know. So we call him, ask him, and he says, I know exactly what's going on. One of the things we discovered about Victor Marchetti is that he doesn't doubt himself much. I know exactly what was happening. He says: I don't know Oswald. I don't know her, but I know exactly what was going on. Okay, please tell us. He says it's a standard operational spy system if you're trying to direct an agent and you have a feeling that that agent may be doing something dangerous and may get caught or have some kind of problem.

The only thing you don't want is for that person to call you their manager directly. You do not want that. This creates what is known as a cutout. And he said, so the agent is given a name and a phone number and told if you get in trouble, call this person, he'll know who you are. He will know to call me and that way I will know that you are in trouble and we will come look for you. And he said that's exactly what someone had done to Oswald. Now, the question that remains at this point is whether Oswald really worked for American intelligence or someone was trying to make him believe that was the case.

And if I had to say one way or the other, my guess would be that it's more the latter: we haven't seen even soft concrete evidence that Oswald was hired by the CIA or any other intelligence group as part of the Kennedy assassination. But the other thing that Victor Marchetti said about Oswald was that, you know, the office of Naval Intelligence in the late fifties had an office in Nags Head, North Carolina, which by the way also had the 919 area code in that moment. And he said it was to find disaffected young military men from the various services who were smart enough and might be the right type to be trained to defect to the Soviet Union for the purpose of serving the United States.

And once there we hoped that we wouldarrested as an agent of some intelligence there, and that way we could use that person to give false information to the Soviets. Let us remember that it was not called the Cold War in vain. And he said that's exactly what Oswald should have done. And it turns out that in recent years we have found two pieces of evidence indicating that Oswald actually did that. The first, researcher Mark Lane spoke with a man who was a former Marine, having served with Oswald in California. One day, Oswald went to meet with some of the higher-ups, he came back and Bucknell, the person who gave him the information, said that he, that Oswald told him that he was being sent to the Soviet Union on a mission. by American intelligence and that he would return to the United States in 1961 as a hero.

Another former CIA pilot testified before Tash Plumley in 2004 with the following statement when he later learned that Oswald had been arrested as the lone assassin. He recalled meeting me on several previous occasions involving intelligence training issues, first at illusory warfare training in Nags Head, North Carolina. So here we had a young man, if we want to take this photo that is presented, who as far as we know, was a very happy sailor, given the opportunity to serve his country clandestinely. And he came back, he was not detained by Soviet intelligence. So he came back, he's out there trying to figure out who he is and what he can do and he gets caught up in something that he has no idea what the outcome is going to be.

And because there has been this little show of cloak and dagger in his past, it would be very easy for someone who knew what he was doing to try to convince him that he was working for American Intelligence. A man named Antonio Besiana was an anti-Castro Cuban refugee who had come to this country and formed an anti-Castro regiment of people who were willing to do whatever it took to try to get rid of Castro. And one day, literally a couple of weeks, as I remember, or a month before the assassination, he had told congressional investigators that he saw the man he would later recognize as Lee Oswald talking to his own friend's own CIA, contact to a man known by the false name of Maurice Bishop.

The Congressional investigator literally tried until the investigator died to get him to admit, he even took them into the same room, he tried to get him to admit that Maurice Bishop was a CIA chief in the Western Hemisphere named David Atley Phillips, but Mesana would never do it. . And the congressional investigator died, and that was the only thing he felt was that he was never going to see his wife, the investigator's reporter's wife continued his work, maintained the relationship that the families had had with him. And last year, I was very lucky as were many other researchers much better than me.

Including one that I believe is here tonight. Uh I was there to hear Antonio Siano finally stand up and say, or his son read his statement, that these two people are the same person. One more indication that Oswald, the lone madman who had no connections to anyone, was seen meeting and speaking with a CIA analyst or agent at the time, that the assassination was being planned. Do we know what they were talking about? Absolutely not. But Oswald reappears with traces of intelligence. Three books, if you want to investigate, have the most information on this. And very quickly, I will end by telling you about them.

When I first saw the telephone slip-up it pained me to say that my interest was from the Kennedys' point of view. In fact, I'd be inclined to take the same action as Ruby. I would love to have shot Oswald. I wish I could give you some clues, but I can't because I have no idea how this came about in his Standard Line until he died. A year after I spoke to him, Anthony Summer's book, the way it was originally published, the way he wished it had been changed or excluded and then he accepted, uh, and that gives information about US Naval Intelligence .and Nags Head and the extraordinary book by James Douglas, which I am flattered to have been quoted there.

He said the situation was becoming more desperate. On Saturday night, Oswald attempted to make a mysterious long-distance phone call to Raleigh, North Carolina. Oswald was trying to convene a House Select Committee on John Hurt's murders. Attorney Sall Brady, who was in charge of investigating the Raleigh call, described the fact that John David Hurt had served in American counterintelligence as a provocative fact. And then this comes from Brady's own report where he indicates how they would do it in every aspect of their job, the truthfulness they felt for Mrs. Trion and what she had to say, the accusation that Oswald was calling John David hurt is It is disturbing because the committee has found no evidence that Ms Trion had any motive to make up the story, especially with details as precise as John Hurt's real phone number.

So he's probably the most enigmatic man of the 20th century in terms of what we know and what we don't know about him. But the call from Raleigh represents that small portion of things that if that phone bill didn't exist or was lost in the move or was decided by the sheriff. No, it's actually not that interesting or any of the many different things that could have happened that would have prevented us from knowing. Does it prove anything about who really killed John Kennedy? No, but it certainly gives us a provocative look to use his word um about the man who was put in the frame, that he said he was a scapegoat.

And what if it was a lone gunman, which I personally doubt, but many people who are very intelligent and whom I respect do believe that they find it very, very, very difficult to understand the facts as presented here in relation to their view of what happened . And I think the more we look at what Schweiker told us back in the '70s about Oswald's intelligence fingerprints, the closer we'll get to finding out what really happened that day. Thank you so much. I have a surprise for you tonight. In addition to Doctor Proctor, we have one of the best historians of the Kennedy assassination.

I think he could have beaten you in terms of time and money spent. But Jim Mars, would you come on stage? I'll ask the first question and let Jim ask the second. But from what I read in your research, the second Oswald called her. He was a dead man. Can you possibly comment on that? But since no one was talking about it, it's hard to know. Obviously, the two men who were there in the closet who prevented the call from being made were probably the only two people who could have spread the word like that to cause him to be killed.

I think he may have been one of the Chain Dominoes. But he probably wasn't the only one I want to give the opportunity to ask questions. Well, all I'd like to say is that I've been at this for 52 years. Um, I was studying journalism at the University of North Texas in 1963. And, uh, when I heard there had been a shooting in the trailer, I turned on my little black and white television. And I know I was watching television for, I don't know, 15 or 20 minutes before Walter Cronkite came on and said, you know, with a huff that the president had died at one o'clock.

So I've been paying attention to this murder since about 10 or 15 minutes after it happened. He had also been to Ruby's Club. He knew Dallas had partied there when he was in college. He knew who was running Dallas. I knew about the Citizens' Charter Commission. He knew of Earl Campbell, who was the mayor of Dallas at the time and whose brother Charles Cabell had been fired as deputy director of the CIA by President Kennedy because of the Bay of Pigs invasion. And anyway, I've really followed this story as a journalist, uh, for, like I said, for 52 years and Mr.

Proctor, I want to tell you what wonderful research you've done. This is the kind of deep, meticulous investigation that should have been done into the assassination of our president, but wasn't, in fact, it was the most botched lapse since the autopsy. throughout these failed investigations. What I want to tell you is that there weren't just fingerprints of the intelligence work around Lee Harvey. Well, there are huge handprints. OK. Let me mention a few highlights. Number one, the House Assassinations Committee determined that there was a 201 file within the CIA that they had previously denied. This is an employee file.

OK. Now they tried to ignore that and said, well, yeah, yeah, we finally found it, but there's only a few newspaper clippings. Nothing of real importance. And yet four or five people, including Vincent Marchetti and other former CIA members, said that if there is a 201 file, he worked for the CIA. John Newman is a very, very credible and very honest military historian who wrote an entire book called Oswald and the CIA. And what he determined and demonstrated through internal CIA message traffic. You know, all the little routing numbers and the two whos and whoses that is.

And this was his conclusion: Lee Harvey Oswald, you know, was being actively used by the CIA before the assassination. Now the key question is: and this is what Mr Proctor raised: was he being used? Uh, and he unwittingly knew that he was being used and I maintain that he knew exactly what he was doing. Um, best I know, I could go on and on. But I know it's been a long night, y'all. You don't want to sit here all night. So Lee Oswald, when he was young, was very patriotic. His favorite television show was I Led Three Lives for the FBI, the story of Herbert Philbrick, who posed as a communist and actually worked for the FBI.

It was a great show in the fifties. I remember seeing that when he was a kid. And I thought so too. I thought, boy, that would be cool. You know, this is an early James Bond. When he was 16 years old, he enlisted in the Marine Corps, he was in the Marine Corps for a short period of time and then they found out that he was a minor. Then they kicked him out again. So, according to his mother, who I spent many hours with Marguerite in Fort Worth, living near Stripling High School, she said that over the next year, Lee carefully studied the Marine Corps manual.

And by next year he'll be able to go and join the Marines. Now, while he's in the navy, he goes through a certain amount of training and then apparently gets picked up by the Naval Intelligence office. Uh, the Marine Corps, as you probably know, is a branch of the Navy. They then ended up sending him to Japan, where he worked as a radar operator managing flights of the then-super-secret U-two spy plane and had a top-secret security clearance. Now, don't let some bastards, you know, have your top-secret security clearance. And then while he was there, he was known to frequent a place called Queen Bee, which was a hockey Tonk there in Tokyo.

But it was above all a place frequented by U-2 officers and pilots. And it was a very expensive club. And you know, there at night it cost you at least 100 dollars and 100 dollars in 1960 1959 60 was a lot of money. And we know, from the records, that he sent most of his paychecks to his mother to support her. So where did he get the money to hang out in these places? He also told his roommates at the time that he was in contact with communist agents. So he was already working in intelligence. And then he gets into Nag's head about this illusory war training where they weren't just grooming people to go to Russia and try to be double agents.

They were also dealing with the Castro anti Castro people and in 1959 trying to get support against Castro and Mr. Proctor, last night I was on the phone with Tosh Plumley and he reiterated that yes, he met Oswald. there in this intelligence training at the head of Nag. Now, as for the John D Hart story, he said he knew John D was injured and that he was associated with training Nag's boss along with Tracy Barnes, the CIA and Howard Hunt, who is also connected to the Cubans. anti-Castro and also there at NAGS Head. Now this gets into the war against Castro, of which, you know, we were actually suppliers.

In fact, Tosh Plumley, at the age of 17, was actually a minor, but he entered the military. They trained him as a pilot. He was flying with the Army's 49th Division and its headquarters in Dallas and was initially flying weapons and ammunition to Castro. And this is true. We don't remember this much, but before Castro won in Cuba, he was the great hero. He was in Life magazine and fighting against the evil dictator Batista. And I remember when I was in high school in the fifties, you know, when we were little kids, we thought, hey, why don't we skip school and go to Cuba and fight with Castro against the evil dictator?

Cambric? And it was only after Castro took power that he expelled the mafia from the island. He nationalized United Fruit. Who, by the way, was Alan Dulles' lawyer, was one of United Fruit's best lawyers, and suddenly corporate America got mad at him and decided he must be a communist. And we, you know, we've had thatproblem with Cuba since then. So we turned against him. And now Tosh Plumley, as a CIA contract pilot, was flying weapons and ammunition to the Bay of Pigs invasion of anti-Castro Cubans in Cuba. Um And um, I could go on, he even flew on a reconnaissance mission just before the Bay of Pigs.

By the way, I just want to mention that the Bay of Pigs was codenamed Operation Zapata. And the reason I mentioned that is because George Herbert Walker Bush's oil company was drilling in Zapata and the two ships that were damaged, carrying supplies for the pig invasion with the Houston and the Barbara. And the day after the murder. In fact, there is an FBI report that talks about the reaction of anti-Castro Cubans to the Kennedy assassination. And they said that this information was provided by Mr. George Bush of the CIA. And if you and I don't know anything about you, I remember when our unelected president, Gerald Ford, appointed George Bush, a man from Texas, as head of the CIA.

I asked, where did they get a Texas oilman to run our main intelligence agency? So I did some research and found out that, first of all, his father, Prescott Bush, as a very powerful senator from Connecticut, was very critical of helping form the CIA. And then we see this idea that, again, some of the people who were transporting weapons and ammunition to the Bay of Pigs said they were using oil companies as a front. And one of them was Zapata's drilling at Middle and Odessa George Herbert Walker Bush's oil company. So we can see this thread get there quickly, another couple of articles about Oswald when he was arrested, he had with him a small miniature ox camera, generally known as a spy camera.

Uh, the FBI went to the Dallas police and talked to the two detectives who had discovered this among his belongings and tried to get them to change their report to read that it was an ox light meter, but they wouldn't. And they said we know a camera when we see one, so they wouldn't change it. Why the problem with the camera? Well, because my counterpart, the Dallas Morning News reporter, did a great job investigating and discovered that Oswald's camera has a five-digit serial number. And when he checked with OX Corporation, they told him that all commercially available cameras in the United States at that time had a six-digit serial number.

In other words, he got this spy camera some other way than buying it commercially from a store. You have file 201, you have the camera. "He wrote while he was working at Jagger Sto in Dallas," he mentioned to one of his friends. Uh, if you knew anything about microdots, most of you probably don't know about microdots, but microdots, this is a spy technique where they take documents and they can shrink them down to the point of a little bit. period as a period at the end of a sentence. So you can paste it in a book. And that's how spies pass information back and forth.

How does he know about all that? But I guess the deciding factor is that, like I said, I spent a lot of time with her mother and his mother from the day of the murder to the day of his death. And on multiple occasions he told me that my son worked for the United States government. She knew it, she's fine, she knew it, but of course, at that moment he sounded so crazy that it was very easy to say. Well, she's just crazy. She's just crazy. Ignore him. So here we go. Oswald was, as John Newman discovered, being used operationally by the CIA.

Now, once you understand that the highest levels of the United States government were involved in this murder, I hope everything else begins to become clear. The failed autopsy, the controversy over the medical tests, the duplicate documents that have been found in the files, the controversies that the uh accuses and counterclaims, claims and counterclaims. Because let me tell you friends, this is what it was. John J. McCloy, the very powerful New York banker, who was part of the Warren Commission and his protégé was Alan Dulles. And these two men ran the Warren Commission quite well and John J.

McCloy testified at the beginning of the Warren Commission investigation and he's there on the record. He said it, it was of utmost importance that we convince the world that the United States is not just a banana republic where the government can be changed by conspiracy. But I'm sorry to tell you, friends, I hate to burst your bubble, but we are simply a banana republic and our government changed in 1963. And as we can all look back now and see, not for the better. And I'm sorry for taking up so much of your time. Oh, okay. And why on earth was this call neglected for so many years?

Was it a lack of good research or they didn't care or didn't want us to know? Well, my feeling is that we did, I mean, that's what I was doing in 1980. Did anyone really want to hear about that? Well, apparently not because the House Assassinations Committee had just finished a year and a half of investigation. And I'm finding more and more as declassified documents from the House Assassinations Committee slowly leak into the National Archives. Uh, I see more and more of what they did and who they talk to and how they got their information. But if you can look up and down and even at every microdot, you can find it in the final report of the House Assassinations Committee on the Kennedy side and you won't hear or find the name John Hurt or a billion or anyone.

So we tried it and they tried it, but because they felt like it just didn't have an answer, instead of saying they just let it go. Let me add a quick thing. Number one, I've already backed up what Mr. Parker said about Tosh Plumley because, like I said, I talked to him last night and he still says the same thing about meeting Oswald at Nags Head. But also, in the early '90s, I took a car trip to Florida with Tosh and we drove everywhere. Ah, that was something else. He even took me to the Alpha 66 headquarters in Miami and I was a little anxious because, I mean, these guys, you know, their key as soon as they look at you and they were rough, tough.

They Yes. In fact, that's what I'm talking about. Number one, they greeted him like he was an old friend. The older ones did it. Now the younger guys say: who are you? But the old ones leave. Oh yeah. Look, they remembered him from the time he flew weapons and ammunition for the CIA. But what I wanted to say is that I actually met Vinc and he made me, he, he and he said this is off the record. OK. Then he made me promise him that he wouldn't say anything. But privately he told me that yes, it's Maurice Bishop.

Yes. And I must say that not only because he said something very good about my work. But I would say if you haven't read Crossfire March, get out of here and find it and if you can't find it, demand it because this is one of the key documents that has come down to us with the researchers and you need to know about it. what this man has to say. Thank you. Tell us who I'm going to answer some questions from the audience. But tell us one last thing, tell us who Tosh was flying to Dallas on the day of the murder.

OK. This is another wild story. But like I said, he took me to Florida. We went to this place. They were, they were these pilots hired by the CIA. And keep in mind that I doubt you'll ever find a CIA job farm for Tosh Plumley. They just don't do it that way. And like Oswald, Tosh, these are called assets and they have cutbacks and they have front companies, they have all kinds of ways to screw it up and then, but I also want to quickly add one thing, uh, you have people Like, uh, uh, you have people , uh, you tried to talk.

You have Beverly, you have all these people now. OK. They say one thing, the government says another. Do we really trust the government? Let's think about it right at the end of the tunnel in Vietnam, read my lips. No new taxes. Uh, I'm not a criminal, uh, weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. Sorry folks, ISIS is contained. Good. Good. Oh, how about this one? Are there no troops on the ground in Syria? OK. Look, I can't, I don't understand it if I were President Obama and I sent troops to Syria after saying that he would have ordered them to take off their boots.

But I'm sorry to tell you. But the federal government of the United States, if it were an individual, none of you, none of them. And I, we, would have nothing to do with them because they are a condemned congenital liar. Well, tell us who he was flying to. To Dallas that day. OK. Tosh took me to Loxahatchee, Florida, where the flight originated. And this was a crazy story. He said they were in a warehouse in this agricultural county jail there in Florida. And that they would shower, clean themselves, shave, rest, sleep and then get up and go out and get on a plane, take off and do more missions for the CIA.

That sounds incredible. Well, he took me there. Pretty sure. He was closed when I arrived. But here is the small prison, here is the landing strip right next to it. And in fact, he gave me the name of one of the prison guards and I managed to track him down. And I said, is it true that you all had some federal prisoners? And he said, yes, he said, yes, we did, we had a contract, he had a contract with the federal government to house some prisoners there. He says, you know, it's kind of funny, they went back and forth.

So he verified all this. Now, what Tom is talking about is that, according to the mission that they took off, they were ordered to fly, they went to New Orleans, they landed and in New Orleans they picked up some people, one of whom he recognized as a Colonel Ralston because I had taken him on a plane through the Caribbean. And, he was part of Jim Wave, the, uh, secret war against Castro. But in later years, he was shocked and amazed to discover that Colonel Ralston was none other than mob boss Johnny Roselli. And he flew Roselli to Dallas on the morning of the murder.

They were due to land at Red Bird Airport. But for those of you who are around at the time, you realize that it was stormy that morning, it was rainy, uh, very cloudy. And then Redbird was absorbed. So they landed in Garland. And he said, that's where Johnny Roselli came from. And um he also said that uh heh uh later they flew to Redbird when it got light that day and that the pilot Rojas said, uh hey, let's go down to the center and see what happens. He says: Okay, so he went with them. They were standing on the south side of the plaza.

He said they told him they were with an abortion team, a team that was sent to Dallas to try to stop an assassination attempt. But while they were there, they heard the gunshots, they fired shots, they saw the presidential limousine drive away, and they realized something very bad had happened. And then they turned around and ran and left. But according to reports there were multiple shots and it was an ambush. Questions from the audience. I'm going to work this way. Let me, I'll work back and forth. That way I don't have to walk as much. I read somewhere that maybe LBJ had something to do with it.

What do you think? Shoot him? Really is? I know I'm in the state that gave birth to Lyndon Johnson and a lot of people who really admire him. He is also the only president I have shaken hands with. I was very young at the time and he was very tall at the time, but I met him at a democratic rally in Raleigh. Um, the evidence, this is me speaking, this is my opinion. To me, the evidence that he was involved in creating the conspiracy is slim. I've read books where people have said that I know there were meetings of all these business tycoons and that kind of thing, but they would probably meet anyway, hard evidence.

I don't see it in terms of setting up the Warren Commission and giving them their goal of, you know, basically convicting the lone lunatic. I think he was absolutely complicit. I think that's how he got Warren to agree to chair the commission in the first place. But right in the middle is the gray area. And if he didn't actually help plan the murder, did he know that beforehand? And I separate myself from a good number of people I know by saying that I think that's how it was. I think there is more than enough information. I have spoken with his ex-lover to whom I am sure a lot, a lot has happened.

She is absolutely convinced because of the comments he made to her about it. She wouldn't have to worry about those damn Kennedys anymore. That's true. I'll be the first to admit that I don't think we'll ever find strong evidence to convict Johnson of planning or even orchestrating the murder of. Although, like Mr. Proctor, my personal opinion is that I think he had to know something because common sense number one, tells you, does not kill the President of the United States unless you are sure that his successor will not come after you. But I'll also say this in Texas: We've executed people as accessories after the fact.

Now this is a legal term that, in these murder cases, shows that the facts of the case show that they didn't kill anyone but they knew it. They hid the gun, they drove, they drove the car, they helped cover up the crime. And in Texas, in fact, in our entire legal system, if you are an accessory after the fact, you are considered as guilty as the person who pulled the trigger. So I want to tell you all unequivocally that the two men who are absolutelyGuilty as accomplices of the Kennedy assassination are Jag Hoover and Lyndon B.

Johnson. Next question, Jim, this is not a question. I just read your book, Population Control, about two months ago and I wish everyone here would get a copy and read it. It's fantastic. Well thank you very much. I wish they did too because, Kenney's murder is one thing. Uh, and I've written about several conspiracies and several books on various topics. Some of you may really like my Rise of the Fourth Reich. But what this gentleman talks about is in my latest book, Population Control. The subject line says how corporate owners are killing us. And you need to read it to know what they are putting in your food, in your water, in your air, that are toxic and dangerous.

And if you have any concerns about your own health and the health of your loved ones, you really need to know what they are doing to you. The two men in the switchboard room of the Dallas Police Department. Were they federal or local officials? Well, we don't know, we have no idea. Mr. Swinney said that he thought they were not homicide people because he knew all the people in the homicide department and they were dressed in suits, not uniforms. Uh, we don't know how they present themselves to her. Probably the Secret Service or the FBI, but that's just alphabet soup for some people.

And, in fact, Mrs. Trion never claims to have known who she was. So she's not in her sworn statement. What I find interesting is that no one in all the research I've looked at recognized who their names were. Nobody has recognized its existence. No, no one has ever acknowledged that they were actually there, except that Mrs. Sweeney and Mrs. The House Murder Committee asked Captain Will Fritz in a document that I literally just found in the National Archives. They asked him: did he order those two people to go down or up and monitor the call? And he says, well, I don't remember, but I might.

And then we will take it as a non-denial, a denial. Um And, and let me say about the affidavit, I really am that, that to me is a cornerstone in this little thing in the larger scheme of things. It may not be that important, but in this small area, the affidavit is key. So what I've done is on my website and I just, you know, I don't make any money from this, so you can go there and you know, all that stuff. But on that website, I have reproduced the contents of every document I found in the National Archives and included in it is the affidavit as it was originally written and later with Ms.

Trion's corrections and edits. So you can see in one place exactly where the differences were and I recommend it because it's really interesting. Can I add something? Let me quickly add something else that everyone should know: At the time of the assassination, there were no federal laws regarding the assassination of the president of the United States. This was technically and legally a homicide in Texas. OK. And yet, against the law, they cursed and displayed weapons illegally, took Kennedy's body, took it from Parkland Hospital, put it on Air Force One and took it to Bethesda Naval Hospital, where they had an examination very, very incomplete and atrocious. autopsy.

And what most people also don't realize is that that same night, on the orders of Cliff Carter, Lyndon Johnson's right-hand man, they pressured the Dallas police to turn over all the evidence in the case to the FBI and give it to them. they carried. around midnight. And so on all the next day, all day Saturday, all day Sunday, all day Monday. Uh, the FBI had sold ownership of all the evidence in the case. Much to the chagrin of Captain Will Fritz, who was the Dallas homicide captain, who was legally in charge of this case. And he complained, he said, how can I investigate this case if they take away all the evidence?

And by the way, on Saturday, November 23, in a document signed by Jaar Hoover himself, he said that no usable fingerprints were found on the rifle, the rifle's magazine, or even the internal parts of the rifle. On Sunday, that rifle was shipped back to Dallas. And on Monday morning, FBI agents, Harrison and Drain, took him to the Miller Funeral Home in Fort Worth where they were preparing Oswald's body for burial. The director was Paul Rudy, who became a very good friend of mine since I was Telegram's star police reporter from Fort Worth. And at that time, they had the ambulance contract.

And so all the crimes, the stabbings and the shootings. I had to deal with Rudy a lot. He told me back then and he passed away a couple of years ago, but to this day, he has publicly stated that he was there when the FBI put Oswald's dead hand on the rifle. And it was that night that Henry Wade announced to the media a mention that we found his fingerprints on the rifle. And I ask you, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, would you have convicted anyone for that? Yes. Who do you think actually orchestrated the murder?

And do you think that one day we will discover the truth? I'm just as interested in hearing what Jim has to say as you are, but let me tell you real quick. Those are the two most frequently asked questions I get and probably any of the researchers. I no longer speculate about the first. Mark Lane told me that a long time ago. He says, because even if you say, well, I think, and I, and this is just an opinion, they'll go away and say, well, Grover said this and that, and I found out that's actually the case.

So I won't do that. But the second question seems much more interesting to me. Will we ever find the answer? And, and my feeling is having never written a book, I can say this, who's to say we don't already know, who's to say that someone, one of those people like Jim who has written these incredibly wonderful, uh exhaustive books. and, and very thorough, he has not asked the right questions, interviewed the right people, reached the right conclusions and written them down completely or 95%. Correct. Well, how would we know because it's in this library of Kennedy books that probably extends around this room and beyond?

And the press has abrogated their responsibility to decide, you know, to give their, uh, estimates about the veracity of this one and the scholarship of that one and, you know, the terrible writing of this one and all that, and they've also abrogated their responsibility to make their own research. It was the press, let's not forget, that broke Watergate. They have decided not to do this in the Kennedy assassination and I don't know why. And I agree and as I said, I have been a journalist for 50 years. I became a journalist in the late 1950s and have been one ever since.

And I am here to tell you openly that I am ashamed of my profession because there is so much information that has not been presented to the public. Why is that? There are many reasons. A lot of it is inertia, a lot of it is simply ineptitude. A lot of your laziness. But there is also what was determined through the church committee and other congressional committees. There has been an infiltration of the mainstream media in this country by the CIA and other NSA agencies and other government agencies. Uh, it's really terrible. Now Mr. Proctor is completely crazy.

No matter what we say, someone will say it. Well, he said this, you know, and I respect him for that. I'm pretty stupid and I'm pretty tired of this whole thing. I'll tell you what I think happened. OK. This thing has several levels. Alright. I think at the top, you will find the Rockefellers, you will find the Rothschilds, you will find the international banking families, you will never be able to reach them. OK? Hey, David Rockefeller was running full-page ads in the New York Times, criticizing Kennedy's economic policies. So he obviously wanted to get him out of here.

And these bankers are the ones who really run the country. Now, underneath them, you find Alan Dulles and McCord from the CIA Helms and these guys and everyone, let's be real. They represent Wall Street and when Wall Street decided that Kennedy was a threat and that Kennedy was not doing the right thing. And we could go through the entire list. He was not going to send combat troops to Vietnam. No, the Vietnam War. Uh, he was trying to seek a rapprochement with Castro, something they didn't want. Uh, he had negotiated with the Soviets to end the missile crisis instead of going to war, which they wanted to do.

He was threatening to take away the Texas oil tanker's subsidy for oil depletion. He was trying to take power away from the Federal Reserve in the summer of '63. He issued $4.2 billion in $5 bills with red ink and silver backgrounds. US notes, not Federal Reserve notes. This is money that we do not have to pay interest on. OK. That is very critical. In fact, the first assassination attempt in American history was against Andrew Jackson. What was he doing? He eliminated the international bankers, the first National Bank of the United States. So he had angered all these people.

Now, once that consensus was reached at that level that something had to be done about Kennedy, then it came down to, I think, Operation Mongoose, this was the secret war against Castro, led by General Edward Lansdale, who had a uh a great record. In fact, there was a book about him in a movie called The Ugly American. He was an expert at assassinating foreign leaders who overthrew governments. So, well, we had a deal with Castro and they, and he was competent, they had everything and they had organized crime figures, they had anti-Castro Cubans, they had CIA people and everyone mixed in there working against Castro.

And I think what happened was they just sent their professional mercenary teams to Dallas. And now, once you understand that this was not a low-level plot, but a high-level plot, then you understand that they have guided the investigation and the pronouncements since it was a palace revolt, a coup d'état, Jim . I just want to thank you again for being here. You are the best I know on the subject of JFK. Well, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, but I mean, Jim's been doing it longer and we correspond back and forth. But could he share with us that, as we discussed via email when Sarah Hughes, Judge Hughes encountered Air Force One and first approached LP J.

She apologized for not having something with her. Would you share that? Well, I'm going to share this with you, but understand that it is an anecdote. I'm sure Mr. Proctor would tell her that she probably shouldn't even say that if she can't prove it and I really can't prove it. But years ago I met a sheriff's deputy, a former Dallas sheriff's deputy Hughes said he was on Air Force One and we all know that, uh, that, uh, number one when Kennedy was declared dead, then, according to the constitution, Johnson automatically became president. Uh, swearing that, it's a formality.

I could have done it at any time. Uh, but he insisted that they stay in Dallas until they could have this formal oath. And he said at the time that the then Attorney General, Robert Kennedy, Jack's brother, later, Robert Kennedy said that he never told him to do that. he such a thing. So there we catch Johnson apparently making a misstatement or else now I'm lying. But according to, oh yeah, really? So, according to this deputy sheriff, Sarah Hughes finally showed up on Air Force One and said, and she said, Mr. President, speaking to Johnson, said, I'm very sorry that it took so long.

She said, but I just couldn't find a copy of the swearing-in ceremony. And he said, Johnson, look around, and they all gathered there on the plane. He said: If any of you talk about this, I will call you a liar. And he reached into his pocket and pulled out a copy of the oath ceremony. Me, that's just an anecdote, but I think it smacks of truth. My question is about a certain Charles Harrelson who shot the judge in San Antonio. I understood he was arrested with several other guys on the train tracks behind the grassy knoll.

Can? Yeah, there were three what they call hobos or bums or whatever you want to call them that were actually, uh, uh, the, uh, guy, the railroad tower operator saw a train leaving right after the murder happened and I had seen Three men get into one of the vans. So he called the police and they stopped the train and they went and took these three guys out of the car and then took them back to the plaza, where they were photographed by news photographers and taken to the sheriff's office. and for years there was no record of who they were.

Now, when the House Assassinations committee showed up. All of a sudden, these three arrest reports written in the same hand, like the same person who scribbled these things suddenly appeared and it was these three guys and they contacted him and said, oh, yeah, but the, a lot of serious investigators doubt that these guys were really the three homeless people. The Tall Tramp bears a striking resemblance to Charles Harrelson and Harrelson was a young boy at the time 23 24, I believe, and was connected to the Dallas underworld. In fact, his mentor ended up being one of the boyfriends of one of Dallas' top organized crime guys.

So he was online at that time. And it is true thatwhen he was finally captured and arrested for the murder of Judge John Wood in San Antonio, a murder for hire. By the way, he kept the police at bay for several hours, this almost sounds like a live Saturday night stunt. He put a gun to his head and said, you know, don't move or I'll shoot and he kept the police at bay for a long time. And then he said he was high on cocaine. And at that moment, he said, I will clear up the John Wood assassination and also the Kennedy assassination.

And then while he was being held in the Dallas County Jail, one of the Dallas reporters went and interviewed him and said, well, listen, I can't talk right now because my cell is bugged, which turns out to be true. A few months later it came to light that yes, they had raided his cell. He said, but when I get out of here, he said, I'll tell you the greatest story you've ever had. Hey, November 22, 1963. You remember. So he gave many indications that he knew something about the assassination of President John F. Kennedy. But, of course, he died in prison, but it's interesting that his son Woody Harrelson did quite well as a Hollywood actor on the back end.

Oh yeah, I have a couple of questions. Have you ever seen any photographs of the blood splatter evidence in the car? And have any of you ever spoken to Governor Conley? I met Governor Connolly. But, this was, uh, uh, uh, after and, uh, I didn't really get to talk to him much about the assassination and also, he was very good friends with Jim Wright, former speaker of the House. Now he was several cars back and it's interesting that no one talked to him, but he said he heard the gunshots and recognized them as gunshots as did Connolly because both men were hunters.

They were familiar with rifles and the sounds of rifles. And Jim Wright told him that. He was on Houston Street heading north, heading toward the school's book depository building, and he said the shots came from the left of him, which is the grass area. He knows. So I guess we understand why he was never questioned. In fact, there were a lot of people, everyone saw the, uh, murder movies there, remember seeing the couple with their little children lying on the ground. OK. Yes, that was Bill and Gay Newman. Alright. And for years they lived right there.

Right here in Dallas you could grab the phone book and call them, which I did. They were never called to testify before the Warren Commission and only went on the record because Jim Garrison in New Orleans subpoenaed him. But I can tell you that I would, Bill Newman was on television that afternoon and the reason they were never called to testify is because they both fell on their children to protect them because they said the shots were coming from directly above their heads at the top of the grassy hill and, and you, but blood spatter on the car, uh, that car when they arrived at Parkland and took the Governor away.

Connolly and the president came out, immediately lifted the lid, and immediately began washing it. OK? And then, on Johnson's orders, they sent it in and rebuilt it and put bulletproof glass in it and painted it black. It had been blue on the day of the murder and, apparently, on Johnson's orders. And, curiously, I would never travel in it. OK. Uh Just a periphery. If you are interested in that car, you can go to the Henry Ford Museum in Detroit and see it in its current form. Uh, but, but Jim is absolutely right about the condition inside the car, there was never going to be anything, uh, taken from that because, the car was completely, uh, cleaned and, and also off limits, um, three parts.

Question one, Mr. Proctor, it would seem that the two men that went up to the switchboard area that were listening to the calls or we are going to listen to the call that they would make, it would seem that they would want that call so that they can gather more information, which they know, they could find something else to help them with their case. So it seems strange that they told him not to make the call. Second question for any of you. I guess some of the documents that will be released on October 16, I guess that's when more documents will come out, would some of them be from the house assassination committee and the church committee? , some of the backroom conversations that were taken or testimonies that were taken and never made public.

And the third part, Mr. Mars, the Redbird situation is interesting to me, I heard, I read about the Tosh Plumley part and flying the plane there from Garland to Red Bird. And then I also read where the host FBI agent said that they had tracked a plane that had warmed up its engines and had been tracked and arrived in Mexico City at about the approximate time. It would have taken him to get there and he went straight to a Cuban plane that was parked and then continued to Havana. So anything additional you can tell me about what happened at Red Bird before I answer the question.

I want everyone to tell what happened to their pieces that were found stuck in a can floating in the Bay of Biscay. Uh, just before he was summoned to speak to the House Assassinations Committee. In fact, what got me was that there were seven FBI officials, all of whom had been instrumental in the FBI investigation into the Kennedy assassination, who were subpoenaed to appear before the House Select Committee on the assassination. And they all died within the space of about four months. I fell from a ladder. Uh, Sullivan was mistaken for a deer in his backyard and shot by the son of a New Hampshire state trooper, a terrible accident.

And they, there, they all left, ok. And Roselli, they found him murdered. Uh, uh, uh, uh, they were subpoenaing him and he was under government protection, but one particular night they all went out to get a pizza or something and someone came in and shot him dead in the basement of his own house. Before his federal guards could appear again and quickly, I think this ties into his first question about who these guys were, uh, in the suits. OK. To me, I don't think there's any doubt that they were federal officials. I already told you how they took charge of the case from the beginning, eh, they threatened him, the police at the house intimidated him, he ran everywhere.

And I'm pretty sure they were given orders that, uh, they had to allow Oswald to receive the phone call from him. Good. I mean, that's constitutional right. And then they had orders to go there to the telephone operators and tell them that if a call comes out from Oswald, don't connect it. And they were also, I'm sure, taking note, middle note or writing who that call was and as far as Mr. uh injured, yeah, I don't think he was probably active, uh, in the CIA at the time. But with that background in intelligence, he was a perfect person.

OK. He was the guy who would have taken the call and then called Bishop or someone who had power over Oswald. Uh, you have to understand if this, uh, when you start talking about the investigation, why didn't they do this? Why didn't they do that? There was nothing standard about this investigation because it was never done at the lower level if this was a regular street shooting, you know, the detectives and the CSI, they would all be in full mode. They would get to the bottom of the matter. They, they tracked down every clue and they would find out what did it, this happened from the top and they closed the doors instead of opening them and they came back with the two men, uh, in the, uh, in, in the laundry room, I've thought many, many hours about it and this is what I came up with and it's the only thing that makes sense to me.

They, like Jim said, have to at least let you go through the process of making a phone call, but they don't necessarily have to let the call happen. And in fact, it probably would have been better thought not to have happened because if Oswald was working with someone outside and regardless of what they told the public, I think a lot of them had some ideas that maybe that was, uh, Uh, a reality. If there was any information that was going to be scrambled or whatever, between the two of them in that conversation, they didn't want that to happen.

But for them it was very important to know who he was. I wanted to call. So you let the little pantomime go until the point where you know the information you want and then you close it. And, uh, uh, let's not forget that if it hadn't been for Ms. Trion, who was actually listening and they didn't know it and she wrote the message herself. We would never know any of this. It just didn't happen like so many other things in this case. Dr. Proctor, you made a comment about, I believe, the agents were Bowling talking about Secret Service involvement.

What do you think of the theory that one of the shots could have come from the secret service? I haven't studied that particular area. But Abraham Boldin is absolutely convinced that there was a former secret service man. Uh, he hinted that it may well have been a man who was in the White House who was discovered to be a real bigot, was the word he used. Uh, and he was fired from the entire secret service, not just the White House detail and he returned home to Alabama, um, that he felt that in one way or another, whether he was there and shooting or in the planning and processing or logistics or whatever, was involved and had information to prove that now I haven't read Mr.

Boldin's book, I plan to. Uh, right after I finished, uh Beverly. But that's all he told us. And really, that's all we know in terms of what his thought pattern was and, again, no, no paths were followed. I mean, there's a man standing on the grassy knoll behind the fence who showed his secret service credentials when the secret service said categorically that we don't have anyone up there. So who was flashing secret service credentials? Um, your guess is as good as mine on that. But there is, there is, speaking of secret service here, there is a real strangeness.

I don't know if you know this Mr. Proctor, but in the Warren Commission volumes, we heard from Thomas J. Kelly, who is in the secret service. And he's interrogating Oswald and Oswald belligerently says, Are you in the FBI? Because he knew the FBI was pulling his leg? And he said, no, I'm with the secret service and here's Oswald, who we're told is the murderer and that an hour or so after the murder he shot and killed a police officer in south Dallas who simply detained him in the street. You know, he says, oh, well, you know what?

As I was leaving the warehouse, a young man, with shaved hair, ran up to me, showed me an identification book and asked me where the phone was and I stood there. to make sure he got to the phone. Does it sound like someone just killed the president? Amazing. Was that question about the secret service? Are you referring to the theory that the driver shot Kennedy? Well, there is a movie where it appears that a secret service agent in the vehicle raises a rifle or shoots. If you look, if you look at the latest edition of my book, Crossfire, you will find an enlargement of frame 3 13.

And while it is true that the driver, Greer turned and looked over his right shoulder at Kennedy as he applied the brakes and the car almost stopped. Uh, his hand is obviously on the steering wheel and what appears to be a gun and bad copies of his generation is actually Kellerman's oiled-haired son Glenn sitting next to him. All you grown-ups, remember in 1963 we all used hair grease, right? Real cream. Yes. Or Vitalis. And so it was, the sun was shining on it. The driver did not shoot Kennedy. Absolutely not. Yes. Yes. I have a question about the second number on the calling card.

That was the fictitious number. Um And maybe, maybe don't think about this scenario. Can I, can I, can I ask my question? I beg your pardon? Then Oswald called and says he wants to call these two numbers. Now, did you have any phone books with you or had they already taken them? And if they had caught him, it means that he had memorized these two numbers. Um And, um, and I wonder, you know, did he ever or did he never call this? Hurt John, I never met him. So he had looked at these, looked at John's in a phone book at some point without knowing which one it was, which one and he memorized them both or why, why those fictitious numbers that were there.

OK. I'm sorry for interrupting you. But you, you and I were thinking exactly the same thing and we came to the same point, think about what Marchetti told us about the cut. If someone was trying to direct Oswald as an agent or make him believe they were directing him, then he would be given a cut. Let's assume for a minute that John D was just someone, someone found in a newspaper article about a former counterintelligence man who is now an alcoholic and makes strange calls to the Governor of North Carolina. And they're like, oh, this would be really good because if he ever got involved, people would just chalk it up to a prank call.

What I would do is say that if he ever finds himself in a situation where he needs my help, call John Hurt in Raleigh, North Carolina. He memorizes that he is leaving. He says, he's fine, I bet I can't provide directory assistance or information if I'm ever in jail or if I'm really hung up somewhere. So he'd better memorize the information of the numbers he calls. He says there are two. John hurts andhe says, probably something pretty rude and says, uh, ok, give me both numbers, although I remember back then they really would. They won't do that now.

Um, he got both numbers and memorized them and that's how they ended up in this. That's the thing, that makes sense. And that's exactly what I think someone in Oswald's position would have done. How do you feel about that? I feel exactly the same. Someone who was managing Oswald said, if you get in trouble, call wounded John and Raleigh and he, yeah, they didn't know. And, of course, John D, as I said, has already been involved with the intelligence training in I there at the head of NAGS. Uh, and so, you know, most likely as the assassination approaches, I want everyone to understand something very clearly: Lee Harvey Oswald was not an innocent person off the street.

It wasn't like he didn't know anything. He was involved in all of this, from his work with the anti-Castro Cubans to the pro-Cubans, to his flyers in New Orleans, etcetera, etcetera, rail type and David transporting all that crew. And then he was actually handing out pro-Castro literature in Dallas, which is usually not mentioned, but I talked to a Dallas cop who had started chasing him at one point because he was on a street corner in Dallas handing out pro-Castro literature and they had a great discussion and he said it's my first amendment rights. And the police officer finally said, well, then, you know, he was putting up this legend, as they say in the CIA, a cover for being pro-Castro, what a perfect scapegoat for the murder.

Uh And then, um, I think as the assassination approached, Oswald began to know that something very heavy was happening. In fact, I'll tell you that he may not agree with me, Miss Proctor, but I think Oswald is a low-level, intelligence asset. I'm not going to call him an agent and I don't think he had a work history as such with anyone, but he was being used and he was making some extra money and I think he tried to warn his superiors of what he was going to do. pass. I can't prove this. But in the '60s I heard from several Dallas police officers that a week or two before the murder, the Dallas police had received a letter, filed it, and sent it to their intelligence division.

That was a warning that there was going to be an assassination attempt on Kennedy and it was signed by Alex J Hill. Well, we know that Alex J Hill was the pseudonym of Lee Harvey Oswald. But the Dallas police at the time probably tried to look for Alex J, but they couldn't find any records of him. So I thought, well, it's a weird letter and they just filed it away. Now, what these police officers also told me back in the sixties was that the Monday after the nation murders. The FBI invaded the entire Dallas police headquarters.

They searched his lockers, they went to the desk drawers, they searched the filing cabinets, they said they even searched the saddlebags.on the motorcycle, officers, motorcycles. And of course, when they went to look for this letter from AJ Hill, he was no longer there. So I can't prove that we also know that the night before the assassination, an FBI analyst named William Walter said that an FBI cable came in saying that information had developed that there might be an assassination attempt on Kennedy in Texas. And then the next day, that was gone again, the control from above.

But Walter was, I think he testified before the House Committee, right? I think so. Yes. And he thought that was so important that he didn't keep the real thing, but he had written it all down. He had contemporaneous notes of this. I think so, and then we also know that Lee Harvey also went to FBI headquarters trying to meet his FBI manager and had left a note. And the only person who actually seems to have read the note was one of the secretaries and she was vague. She said, I thought it was some kind of warning, and of course the FBI said, well, yeah, I was warning the FBI not to bother my wife again or I'd do something bad to her.

But I'll tell you what folks, if that were the case, we would have seen that story published on the cover of Life magazine to show how prone to violence a guy is. Oswald was the host after the assassination. J. Gordon Shanklin, the top agent in Dallas, called the host. And he said, he said, now that Oswald is dead, there will be no trial. I said, get rid of it. So he started folding it up and coming out and said, no, I mean, get rid of it. Then they tore it up and threw it in the toilet.

Now, does that sound like destruction of evidence to you? And one last thought about there being a book out there. And sometimes I'd love to know what you think of what you think is written by a woman named Judith Vari Baker who claims to have been Oswald's lover when she was in New Orleans the summer before the assassination. She claims in that book that in the moment immediately before the murder, he had called her from Dallas, which was very rare after he left New Orleans, he had very little contact with her, but he called her to tell her that he was afraid that something really bad was going to happen and he had a feeling he was being put there as part of a team to try to prevent a murder.

Now, think about that for a moment for the man who ends up being the scapegoat. Again I can't guarantee that that is absolutely accurate, but that is her report and, after having many conversations or email conversations with Judith, I find her relatively credible. And I think the things that she points out in her book called Lee and I take those three months and give us a whole new picture of what Lee Oswald was really like. And that he was very much the way Jim describes him: down on the ground and working with the people who were also on the ground.

But as a man who loved his country and thought he was doing something good through his intelligence work. Yes. Oh yes. Well, I've spent a lot of time with Judith Barry Baker and I'll tell you that I was very distrustful of her at first because of the time that passed before she talked about her. But if you read her book, Lee and I, she explains it in intricate detail. Uh and I found out that number one is a very intelligent lady. Number two, she got a photographic memory. I don't remember what I had for breakfast. Two days ago, you know, and she can remember all these details from 1963.

Plus, she has evidence to back it up. She worked at Riley Coffee Company at the exact same time as Oswald and she has the time cards to prove it. OK. And, for her, they were hired almost at the same time and fired almost at the same time. And, just to give a quick example, she said that her job at Riley was to book Oswald in every day because his job was double. Number one to work within Riley was that she hired a lot of Cubans to try to figure out which ones were the pro-Castro Cubans and which ones were the anti-Castro Cubans.

And now, if you are with a group of Cubans, how are you going to know which ones are pro-Castro? You pretend to be pro-Castro and then one of them comes and goes. Yes you're right. And there, they have already identified the Pro Castro. So that was a job. Her second job was to sneak out of work and go to David Ferry's apartment where they were working on a cancer experiment. At first she thought they were trying to work on a cure for cancer. But then, she became very discouraged because she realized that they were actually working on a causal factor, an agent that would create cancer.

OK. In essence, they were trying to weaponize cancer. OK. So anyway, she said that it was her job to take care of Oswald while he was covering for Riley for him. In fact, she said she was supposed to check him out every day. Well, okay, she went to work from 8 to 5. And, uh, I went back and looked at her time logs and she was able to record her arrival in the morning exactly as she expected. 7 59 801, you know, a few minutes of rest every now and then, because you come back a little earlier, a little bit. But, but, and when he clocked him out at five in the afternoon, five o'clock, five o'clock, Judith was going up and going and just, you know, punching the clock.

So there is a lot. Oh, and then I went into the Warren Commission, found his immediate supervisor at Riley, and read his death position. And he says, you know, it's funny, I never could find it. He was never around and he said, when I caught up to him, I said, you know, where have you been? And he said, oh, I was just present, you know, so it all fits together and I, I believe in Judith Baker. Me too. Do you think any shots came from the sixth floor? And if you do, who do you think was the one who was shooting someone who was shooting a mouse and not a man?

That's on the one hand. Yeah, I don't know, as far as I know, no one has been identified. No serious names have come forward like any of the other shooters. But wait a minute, wait a minute. Uh, we knew at the time that the FBI came in and fingerprinted all the school books, the warehouse employees and needless to say they made a big deal out of it. They found Lee Harvey Oswald's fingerprints on the sixth floor. What a thing. He, he, everyone knew that he had been there working. Everyone was moving boxes. It would be unusual if you hadn't found his fingerprints up there.

But what's really fascinating to me is that in the late '90s, a Texas investigator got his hands on the fingerprint cards of Malcolm Mac Wallace, who was a convicted hitman and was connected to Lyndon Johnson. In fact, he had been convicted of a murder in Austin in the late 1940s that was apparently linked to Johnson. And then Billy is named Mac Wallace as a hitman who killed some people for Lyndon Johnson and his father and they did a 32-point comparison of these fingerprints on the sixth floor that match Malcolm Mac Wallace. Now, I think that's extremely strange because Johnson may have been a murderer, but he wasn't stupid.

And I don't think he would have allowed Mac Wallace a convicted hitman who could be directly related to him 50 miles from Dallas if he had known the murder was going to take place. But what I do believe is that one of the two things they maneuvered was to get Mac Wallace up to the sixth floor where they knew he would leave some fingerprints, or better yet, they just planted Mike Wallace's fingerprints on the sixth floor. so they had complete and utter control over Johnson. Yes. And you know, his mind is more devious than mine. He hadn't taken it to those last two levels.

But, yeah, when I saw the Wallace report and the fingerprints, my immediate thought was, no, that, that's not going to happen. That is, there is some other explanation or there is a mistake here. But now that I hear his response, I like being here. What do you think of the Jim file confession? And the mafia part as far as he was concerned? OK. He's talking about James Files, who is currently incarcerated at Joliet Prison in Illinois. And he has confessed to being Grassy, ​​not a gunman, and tells a pretty good story as a veteran journalist. I like to pride myself on being a very good reporter and I always thought that if I could sit in front of the files, look him in the eyes, watch his body language, I think I would be able to determine, you know, if he's the real deal or if he's the real deal.

He is pretending. But I must tell you that I did that. I entered Joliet Prison. I sat in front of James' file. I looked him into his eyes. I observed his body language. I had all the questions asked for him and I'll be honest with you. I'm still not sure if he is really telling the absolute truth or not. Now he is who he says he is. It is, he was a hitman. He was related to Chuck Nicollet, the Chicago mob's top hitman. He knew all the gangsters there from below. Oh, and he was a driver for Nicoletti.

I think all of that is very true. Especially since one of my good friends is still Zach Shelton, who was a now-retired FBI agent, who actually worked in the Chicago office and covered organized crime and attests to the authenticity of James' files. But now, when James' files said he was on the grassy knoll and fired. I don't know, still, still, that's kind of a change. I think he heard things. I think he knew a lot of inside information about the murder. Uh, but has he inserted himself into the story or was he actually the shooter? And I'm not really sure because there's another candidate for the old gunslinger that I think, in my opinion, he rates higher than James Files.

And that's a member of the Dallas police at the time named Roscoe White, his son, Beverly will tell him and she will answer for this. Well, she told you, she said that after the shooting and she was standing wondering what she wanted, where she wanted to go, but she didn't want to, she was afraid that someone would think that, you know, she might want to talk to him. hers. And then she saw this man on the grassy knoll and she didn't really know him, but she knew that he was Roscoe, Geneva White's husband, and that he worked for the Dallas police.

And then she thought I can go now, right? Because they know who I am and they know how to reach me. Beverly, I wanted to ask you real quick when she saw him, did he have a suit or a uniform? Didn't you have a hat? OK. But I had his badge. OK. Now this goes back to the photograph of the man with the badge that you can find in my book. Crossfire. Mary Morman took a Polaroid camera photograph from the south side of Mound Street pointing directly at the grassy knoll almost at the exact moment of thefatal headshot, either a little bit, a split second before or a split second after.

And we tested that camera and found that it didn't have the ability to capture intricate background details. And behind the fence on the grassy knoll, we've blown up an area and I and many others, including the homicide detectives who I showed it to, said it's a man shooting a rifle and it's in the classic rifle shot. . position. He doesn't have a hat. You can see his hairline, you see his eyes and his ear. He wears a dark shirt with a semicircular patch on his left shoulder and a shiny object on his chest, which computer analysis showed to be metal.

So it appears that whoever he was, he was wearing what appears to be a Dallas police uniform. So my money for the grass, no gunslinger right now is on Roscoe White. Yeah. And that's certainly been one of the biggest theories out there and, think again, logically, I always like to go back and say, does this make sense if you had someone posted somewhere else like the grassy knoll? or up there, between the grassy knoll and the, and the, and you wanted people who had looked over and seen someone with a rifle not to panic or jump to the conclusion.

You don't want them to draw, put them in a police uniform because then they'll say, oh, they're protecting the president. Let me go back to what he was doing. So, yes, it makes a lot of sense and is supported by the evidence he vaguely talked about. Yes, my question is about the rifle he found. Did it have Oswald's prints? Can it be linked to Roswell Oswald or the rifle? Well, I mentioned that earlier about the fact that the next day the FBI said that no usable prints were found on any part of the rifle or even on the internal parts of the rifle.

And then on Sunday, he was sent back to Dallas on Monday. They take him to the funeral home and I, and the funeral director said they put his dead hand on the gun. And that night, Henry Wade announces how we found his fingerprints on the rifle. Except when you look, it's actually a partial palm print that was found on the underside of the gun's disassembled barrel. OK. So I don't mention that compelling evidence about Officer Tippet's death here. Did Oswald shoot him or was there a person who ran into a library or elementary school like it was a church, a church?

And if the persecutors were stopped by, here is someone who read the material or knows something because that is absolutely true. I can tell you unequivocally that Lee Oswald did not shoot Officer Tippet. How do I know this because he was in the theater at the time? Uh his movements, he left his room and home shortly after one. He arrived at the theater about 10 minutes later. At the funeral of the theater's assistant director, Butch Burroughs, I was told that he was there and that Oswald had bought a ticket, the boy had come in and bought him popcorn and then he had moved around downstairs, two other people in the theater at that time, an insurance agent and an 18-year-old old man, uh uh uh that I interviewed, uh, was sitting there just because he wanted to go see the war movie.

Now picture this, he's in a 900-seat theater and there are only about 20 people scattered here and there. He is sitting in the back, on the right, alone, when someone enters, walks past him and sits in the seat next to him. What's that? You know, he didn't say anything and the guy next to him didn't say anything, but he just sat there for a while and finally got up, walked past him, walked over and sat in the middle section. And then, of course, a little bit later the police arrived and this was Lee Harvey Oswald, what was going on there?

He was trying to establish intelligence contact with him. OK. It's one of those things where he sits next to the guy and the guy tells him that the geese fly south and he says, but only in the winter and they have their little secret there to say: it's us. I made contacts, he, but didn't get any response from Davis. And then he got up and moved on. So, but the point is that these three witnesses place Oswald in the theater at the time the movie began showing, which was ten past one. And, uh, the Warren Commission didn't say, uh, Tibbett wasn't shot until around 115 or 120.

And they relied on the fact that uh uh he arrived after the shooting and several minutes after the shooting he arrived at the, uh, the police car and key and key, he opened the microphone and said, we have an officer down here, send help. Uh, so Oswald was in the theater at the time Tippet was shot and you're right off the bat, the shooting took place at 10th and Patton. Then they began to mobilize all the patrol cars and there were reports that a man had fled the scene and was seen going into a church nearby.

Well, the police were coordinating, gathering and preparing to raid this church when they got another call saying, no, he snuck into the Texas theater. Then everyone ran to the Texas theater. And by the way, even before all that, I talked to some people who had been at the South Oak Cliff branch of the Dallas Library and they told me, shortly after one, that a whole group of police officers ran in and they were running . Up and down looking through all the piles of books and everything. And finally one of them said, well, he's gone and they all ran away again.

So they knew who they were looking for and they went after him. And if you really want more details on this, this goes back to one of the first books I read that was written about the murder. Go back to Mark Lane's rush to judgment and find the section where he interviews Ms. Aquila Clemens, who was an eyewitness to the shooting and the aftermath of the shooting. And if you want to have hair on the back of your neck, get up, read that and no, I'm not going to tell you tonight because you have to go do your homework.

Um Beverly will have books for sale and she can sign them with Jim's personalized signature. If you brought books, please sell them. Uh and um Grover, did you bring any books? No, but I'll go with two of them. OK. We'll be here for additional minutes for questions and answers as far as I'm concerned. This is one of the best JFK assassination symposiums ever held on John D.