Therapist Shares Why You're Attracted To People Who Are Wrong For You

Hello everyone, welcome back by the way, the world's number one health podcast, thank you to each and every one of you, who I greatly appreciate coming back each week to listen, learn and grow now. excited and grateful for today's guest. I think this will be a conversation that I know many of you have been waiting for and I know it will be a conversation that will help you at whatever point in life you are in right now, so please. please welcome to the show, the one and only Laurie Gottlieb now Laurie Gottlieb is a psycho

therapist

and the New York Times bestselling author of "Maybe You Should Talk to Someone," which is being adapted as a television series with Eve Longoria, in addition to his clinical practice.

She writes the Atlantic's weekly advice column for beloved

therapist

s and is a regular contributor to the New York Times and many other publications. She is a member of the Advisory Council to bring changes to mind. Laurie is a sought-after expert on outlets including the Today Show Good Morning America and NPR's Fresh Air Podcast, Your New Beloved Therapist, produced by Katie Couric and co-hosted with Guy Winch, helps listeners see themselves more clearly. and premieres this spring. Be sure to check it out and subscribe in advance. I am excited to learn more about human therapy. relationships and more welcome to the show Laurie and her new book maybe you should talk to someone.

We'll put the link to the book in all titles and comments, so be sure to go pick up a copy Laurie, thanks for being here. Good thank you. for letting me know that this is a real pleasure and as we were getting ready I ran into how many mutual friends we have or I met you guys that we've crossed paths with; I've interviewed a guy out of many, it feels like it's been lifetimes ago, but when I was on the Huff Post with Arianna Huffington and at the same time, Eva Longoria is a very close friend, so I feel like, and then already you know Jim and Eamonn, yes, absolutely, yes, absolutely, but tell them I want to start somewhere I'm not sure, maybe.

You get asked a lot or not, but I would love to start by telling me about your latest adventure with your son, yes, my son, well, there are many adventures because he is 14 years old, yes, and you know he is a really interesting person in this. age I think when kids are younger, there's more hierarchy in the family and I think all of a sudden they start thinking in all these complex ways and it forces you to look at yourself like a mirror. and make you ask questions about yourself in the world in a different way, so I would say our adventures or conversations are enjoyable and it's just what you know about the human mind and connecting relationships, where it helps and where it hinders in the process of breeding.

It's a great question, you know? I think what it does is it makes me aware of the importance of allowing children to let

people

access their feelings. Many times, as parents, we feel uncomfortable with a feeling our children have and we try to talk about it. We take them out of their feelings, so you know, a child says, "I'm angry about that" and we say "you're really very sensitive" or "we, you know," or "they say, I'm sad" and we say "oh, you know "Both of you, here's a balloon, you know? We go to Disneyland, right? We try, we try to convince them not to do it or I'm afraid and we say, oh, don't be afraid, there's nothing to be afraid of, be brave and I think what happens is that

people

don't. .

I don't know how to access his feelings because they were always talked out of them, so I think the benefit, you know, the advantage of being the child of a therapist is that nothing is swept under the rug, you know, the disadvantage is that he will be totally fucked up anyway because you know that's life, yeah, what are the lasting effects of that? What you are saying is spot on, as if we are always trying to deny or neglect the feelings and emotions that people share with us, what are the lasting effects? I know that well.

I think what happens is that people try to get rid of their feelings. They don't realize that feelings are positive. Our feelings are a compass that tells us, they give us information. If you are sad, why. Are you sad? What needs to change if you are anxious? What does that tell you about what's not working in your life? Even envy people are so afraid of envy and I always tell people to follow their envy, it tells them what they want, so instead of sitting there and looking at what everyone else has said, what do I want? ?

How can this help me take those small steps I need to take to do something different so I can have what I want? So what happens is that people will minimize their feelings. You know well that I have a roof over my head and food on the table, so I shouldn't be sad. You shouldn't be anxious. I shouldn't feel like I do. People will try to numb your feelings. Like you know that numbness is a way to manage your feelings, but I feel like numbness is nothing, numbness is not heat, it is not having no feelings, it is being overwhelmed by too many feelings and your feelings don't go away. simply because you push them down and that is the problem because our feelings will come out in short tempered behaviors, anxiety over too much food or wine or time on the internet.

A colleague of mine calls the Internet and said that it is the most effective short-term pain reliever without a prescription that exists, true and, like all pain relievers without a prescription, it has many side effects, well, yes, terrible, the problem is that if you don't You know what you feel, you don't know what your story is. is right and they think that our stories are a way to give meaning to our lives, so what happens is that I, as a therapist, I see that people come in and tell me their story and the thing is their story, there are so many problems with story that Were there unreliable narrators?

We're telling a story in a particular way, but I think if we don't know what we feel, we only see a very narrow part of the story and that limits us. Yes, it's so true, so true. and I feel like half the challenge is also that we've become so disconnected from knowing how we feel about anything, so one of the things that really helps me is that I'm always thinking like after eating mm-hmm, I know. Whether I like that cuisine or not, I am very clear after watching your film. I know if I like the movie or not, so I often try to apply that same sensory check on myself after I meet a person, after I go somewhere. after interacting with a is that a good habit is a habit that you recommend is what are the easiest ways to get closer to our feelings and really understand how we feel about something or someone.

Well, I think the first thing is To realize when you're afraid of a feeling, I think it's almost as if the fear of our feelings is scarier than the feelings themselves, so you know what happens if someone feels something that someone else feels. person won't like it and then says oh, me. I'm going to adjust my feelings to please others to make sure that's how I'm supposed to feel about this and then they'll lose their sense of place in knowing that we all have a place of knowing within us and sometimes it's almost like we get lost and we can't find it because we're so worried about how people will feel about the way we feel, absolutely yes, and I find a big part of that is a coping mechanism, like it's a feeling. of community or tribe feeling where we want to feel an almost artificial connection because that feels safer than feeling an uncertain disconnection, right, it's to survive, we have to connect, we have to belong, you can't be alone, you will, you will be devoured by you. you know wherever you are, so you have to have the tribe around you, but the problem is that it's not an authentic way to have the tribe around you when you're pretending to be something that there aren't that many people in therapy for.

For example, they come in and they have a mask on and they are so afraid of you knowing that they want to entertain me, they want me to like them, they are afraid of being boring and I always say that if you show me, the truth of who you are, I will be fascinated by you, It doesn't matter what that truth is, but if you say, look here, look here, look here, I'll be so bored, yeah, I'm sitting there thinking about what it is. This person trying to tell me what the meaning of what he's saying and what he's really doing is trying to keep me out, yes, absolutely, yes, and it's almost like being like a magician who's afraid to give his tricks and you're trying to keep everyone entertained, but then you never see that person beyond that mask, right, yeah, tell me about a time when you gave advice to someone where you really realized that you didn't feel like it was the right one. best advice.

How does a therapist process that? Because I feel like in any profession, whether you're a coach and you know you're a therapist, when you're giving advice it's almost like there are moments where you're so sure of a belief. you're so sure of the value and then I looked back at the things I said and I felt like I was so

wrong

. Have you ever felt how you can reconcile that for yourself in the person you've been working with? I think it's very important for me to remember that I may know what I would do in a certain situation, but that may not be the best option for them because I'm not living their life, so I have this word taped in my office.

Ultracrepine Arianism and means the habit of giving advice or opinions outside one's knowledge or competence. I love it and I think we have a place for our friendships and our romantic relationship, all because you can't know what someone else should do, you can help them get to a place where they know for themselves what they should do, so I'm always working to help people figure out what I need to do to get to that place and not ask the outside world and not know. we crowdsource on the internet, we do that like we ask the internet, people will write these questions like you know my husband is cheating on me, what should I do? and crowds are just as bad and it will be different for each person.

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Next We is the world's number one automotive business system trusted by over 19,000 businesses. Seriously, it's the last system you'll ever need. Schedule your free product right now and receive your free gun. The 7 key strategies to increase your profits. I'm NetSuite. kama /j that isNetSuite comm /j NetSuite comm /j business grows here yes, I always feel like we have this extreme of light when we are going through something that we ask everyone, yes, all opinions, yes, or we do the opposite when we ask no one for nothing like you don't even ask the experts or a therapist or someone who can really help you get closer to the ants and the reason we don't ask is because of shame hmm i think a lot of times we keep these secrets about ourselves from other people because we feel that we have a lot of shame about the fact that we're even struggling with something hmm you know a lot of people keep secrets from me as a therapist and Carl Jung called it secret psychic poison and I think that's what they are it's like when we keep something and there's a difference between of course the privacy we all need to have and the secrecy, secrecy is a shame, privacy is like a healthy boundary, wow that's fascinating, yeah the secret is I can't tell this to anyone.

I understand. I understand it so much. I see a difference. - between the way men and women keep things to themselves, so many men come up and say, "I've never said this to anyone before" and then what they tell me is really felt and I feel so much compassion for them because I feel like it's so sad that in our culture we tell men that they can't be vulnerable, that they can't share this because they'll look weak or you know whatever it is, it's not okay. Women will also come and say, "I've never told this to anyone before, but then they'll say except my mom, my sister, and my best friend, so they told one or three people, but to them it seems like it's a secret." and they haven't told anyone so I feel like you know the shame of why it's so hard when the reality is we're all going through similar things and if we don't talk about it we don't know um absolutely yeah and I think That's the saddest thing about all of that is that we feel like everyone has it all figured out, other than yeah, of course, yeah, it's not just that we're embarrassed, but we feel like, oh, she's got it all figured out, he's got it all figured out. will figure it out and that person, my company will figure it out. whatever it is, but I'm the only one that's right and then what happens is we have this voice in our head that's so self-critical and so cruel because we don't get the answer from oh this is normal and everyone is going through it and So we walked I asked this therapy patient to write down everything she said to herself over the course of a few days and she came back and read it to me and she comes back and has this piece of paper and it says I can't read this, I'm a bully and there were things like, you know, you're going to eat that with those thighs or you made the mistake, you're so stupid or you know, oh, look at all those couples, I'll never find nobody. and we don't realize that's what's going on in our heads because we don't check reality with other people who are also struggling with some of the same things, yeah, and the thing is, cell flagellation never improves our growth, so people think.

I'm going to be hard on myself and hold myself accountable and then I'll grow and change, uh-uh, self-compassion is how you grow and change and that doesn't mean not holding yourself accountable for things what it means is that you can be responsible and you can also be compassionate and that combination will help you grow and change, yes, absolutely and by the way, if anyone I'm going to throw it out if Laurie or I look like we're sweating. We're sitting in a sour sauna in a sauna right now without air conditioning without air conditioning just for the benefit of this audio for each and every one of you so in case you see sweat it's the depth of the conversation yeah . but it's also the fact that it's a Sunnah and it's only going to get worse, there will be water, yes, but Laurie, tell me what first made you want to be a therapist because I feel like today therapy is and I mean, of course, Just I'm looking at it in the generation I belong to, but I see that therapy is a growing need in the world.

I see it as an industry where I think we need more qualified people to serve people and help. people and support people, we're seeing the rise of mental health when you decide to be a therapist, what was your calling for that and where did you see it at that time versus how you've seen it evolve, so it's interesting because I came to professional therapy. very late in my life. I never imagined I would be a therapist. I started when I graduated from college. I was working in film development and then I moved to NBC and I was doing primetime series development and this was a long time ago, this was the year ER and Friends premiered, so it got out, 1994, yeah , great job, but when I was working on ER it was interesting because I loved what I loved about working in television and it filled me with storytelling.

These rich human stories and I felt like ER did it very well. I mean, no one goes to an ER because they were hoping something would happen right, so it's these turning points in life and we had a consultant on the show who was a real ER. The doctor and I spent some time in the ER with him and he kept telling me "I think you like it here more than your day job" and he said you should go to medical school and I said "well, no." I am". It doesn't change that I was a French student doing that, but I went to medical school and I felt that in medical school you saw the real stories, so it wasn't the fictional versions of them, it was real life and when I got there It was like I was at Stanford and it was like the dot-com boom, the first one before the bus, and everyone was like, "Oh, you know, there's this new thing called managed care and you're not going to be able to spend time on it." with your patients and in the way that you want and I really wanted to, you know, I had this idea of ​​being the family doctor who guides people through their lives, which of course leads to therapy, but not I realized that at the time and so I finally started writing when I was there and I left that to become a journalist, where I felt like I could really spend time with people, listen to their stories, help them tell their stories and then when I had a baby, you know, it was one of those things where I felt like I needed more human contact during the day, contact with an adult during the day and the UPS guy would come with all the deliveries and I would literally stop him and tell him.

I'd say, "You know, hey, he'd back up to his older brother, I can tell something's

wrong

here, he was at a certain point, he'd tiptoe to the door, gently pull out the package so he couldn't start a conversation." with him, strangers and true, so I called the dean of Stanford and told him to listen. maybe I should go back and do psychiatry and she said if you do psychiatry you'll probably be prescribed celexa and 15 minute intervals. I know what you wanted to do, why don't you get a graduate degree in clinical psychology and do the work? the deep work you want to do and that's exactly what I did, so I feel like I went from telling people stories to helping them change their stories in the therapy room.

I feel like my writing background is very helpful because I'm almost like an editor in the therapy room where people come in with these flawed narratives and I help them rewrite them. One of the things I think people feel when they come to therapy is that I really want to understand who I am and I feel a part of knowing who you are a part of, knowing yourself is reaching into the unknown, it's letting go of those limiting stories that hold you back. you've been telling it over and over again so you can live your life and not that flawed narrative you've been telling. yourself about your life and that opened you up to so many more possibilities so sometimes what we think we know about ourselves isn't really accurate and that's the editing we do in the therapy room, there are things we eat, you remember them and think.

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Their mission is to help you get the right insurance by making it easy. so you understand your options, compare quotes and buy a policy, all in one place Since 2014, they've helped prevent 30 million people from buying life insurance, so even if you remember your distressed triple denim days, you'll never will be distressed. life insurance with idiot policies in just a few minutes you can find the best price and apply a genius.com policy we all make mistakes from time to time at least we can get the right life insurance policy jeans yes, absolutely, okay, we have to make it unknown and unlearn yes, much more than we feel we need to learn about ourselves and know about ourselves is the discovery in my book I talk about the analogy that is given in spiritual texts of a dusty mirror, so it is as if You look in a mirror and you look in it and you ask what am I looking at, it's like all you see is dust and that's kind of our experience of who we are when you start cleaning the dust, it can actually be a painful process at first because the dust reaches your face and you slow down a little and it gets in your eyes, but then, little by little, you can see yourself, so it is that cleaning of all the layers of dust that we have accumulated almost correctly and when you say it's difficult.

It's hard and I think sometimes people imagine that they're going to come to therapy and they're going to unload the week's problem and then they're going to go away and they're not going to have to do any work, yeah, you know, and I actually have to do some work and that's why. I talk in the book about the difference between idiotic compassion and wise compassion. Compassion is what our friends do. It's like you know someone breaks up with you and you think, wow, he was even a jerk. even though we know this has happened the last three times because there are certain ways you behave in the relationship that lead to this outcome or you know you didn't get the promotion you wanted and we know why it happened because it keeps happening to you. and we say, oh, your bosses don't see your talent when we really know what's going on but we don't want to cause problems and we think we're supporting you, but it's not really supportive, so you know it's kind of like if a fight breaks out and in every bar you go to, it could be you, no, we're not saying that's an idiotic convention, the truth is that compassion is holding up that mirror, but the clear mirror, not the dusty mirror, and it's holding up that mirror and telling you I'm going to help you look at yourself in a way that maybe you haven't wanted to or haven't been able to see and I think you're going to like what you see because it's going to help you navigate the world in a much more fluid way, yeah, and so on.

You may have to make some changes. People often come to therapy with the idea of ​​"I want things to change" and what they want to change is someone else or something else that they don't realize. I'm going to have to make some changes, yes, and I and I want to say that, like if you're the protagonist of this story, you're going to have to make some changes, yes, absolutely, and one of the things that I think we struggle with is that I was. talking about this with a friend the other day we are on I'm walking, we were saying that she was being very vulnerable and open, it's incredible, I know she listens to the podcast, you know who you are, that's what her tenants are like, but that's how it is. the feeling that we want people to be honest with us, but we have a hard time being honest with people, yeah, so it's weird, like it's a weird circle because it's like I'm like, Lori, I want you to be really honest with me about How is this podcast going? but then when my friend asked me how his podcast was going, I'm not telling you the truth, yes, but I hope you tell me the truth, yes, we almost became demanders of the truth, but not givers, and that continues that circle.

If that makes sense, then how can we really open ourselves up to create space for friendships like that? Because I almost think in the same way that you say that we are creating those scenarios in our life again in work or in relationships, yes. They are inviting idiotic compassion into our lives, that is true, because we are not ready for the almost right, we have to be able to hear it. I see this a lot with the couples I see, so a lot of times you know someone will say and I see. This is more typical in a coupleheterosexual where the woman tells the man I want you to be really vulnerable with me I want to understand your inner life I want you to open up to me and then he does it and starts crying and she freezes correctly or if someone likes her or if what she is saying is honest about something that's going on between the two of you and people are so afraid to share that, so maybe they're open about something that's out there, but if it's like there's something I want to talk to you about us and the person says yes, I want to listen.

I want you to be really open and honest with me until you really tell. I realized that this happens between us and there is something here about you and the person. Wow, I didn't want to hear that, so we felt so uncomfortable with other people's truth. You don't have to agree with another person's feelings, but you should know that their feelings are valid, which doesn't mean you have the same feelings. There is a distinction, it's almost like the difference between when someone really wants someone to forgive them and me. I always say that there is a woman in the book who wants her adult children to forgive her for what she had done, they separated from her, they and I said you. you know what you can't you are asking for something called forced forgiveness that those people are not going to forgive you because it will make you feel better and sometimes not forgiving is okay it is okay if your children never forgive you maybe they have compassion for you maybe they see you as the mother what do they want now even though you can't be that so we have to learn to forgive ourselves but so many times if someone says I'm so upset about this we say we want to listen to that but we don't know how to let it in, how to be open to it, yeah how are you? in women's therapy in your life and when you advise people, do people live or do we sometimes assume that people live?

Very problem-driven lives, so when they come to see you they feel like they have to start with the problem or sometimes when you see a friend you feel like you have to share something that's wrong for there to be a conversation. I feel like there are almost problems and Mistakes have become better conversation starters or rather I would say they are more comfortable conversation starters for people rather than something positive. Do you see how much is that you know what's so interesting? I think we have this strange dichotomy where everyone on the Internet posts everything. the positive things in person, everyone

shares

all the negatives, oh yeah, and then there's not that balance.

I think many times we use our friendships to vent our problems, but we're not really listening. When I was training I was doing my internship a clinical supervisor said you have two ears and one mouth, there is a reason for that ratio. I think we don't know how to listen and sometimes we feel like someone is telling us something we need. to solve problems, we don't know how to sit with them and not solve them and we also don't realize that sometimes we are helping them by helping them hear themselves more clearly and if we speak for them, if we speak over them, they can't hear themselves. themselves, we are speaking through their inner voice.

The last part at the end that you just mentioned is so powerful that we are speaking for your inner voice and in fact, simply listening to them allows you to hear yourself, yes, and you are right. I feel like my best conversations are definitely when I can find the narrative just by being able to share, share, share, because most of the time we share we talk for two minutes per person, given the answer talk for eight and it's always like you know now okay, now I take that answer, they don't quite understand me and then it just gets lost, so how do we change?

Talking about our problems is helpful to who we are. useful and when is it easy yes I think you have to choose your audience yes I think a lot of times people have had bad experiences let's say growing up they had bad experiences and then they end up choosing someone who will disappoint them and then say see see what It happens when I'm vulnerable to see how that doesn't work and what happens is that they don't realize that they are repeating this pattern. One thing that therapy really does for people is that it helps them see that they are making decisions that are repeating themselves.

They are helping to repeat a pattern that makes you unhappy, they keep you stuck and people don't realize what they are doing. There's a woman in the book who keeps dating the wrong guys, right, and even, by the way, when from the waiting room, I don't mean in the waiting room, it's not that exciting, but she meets him in the waiting room and I know because of her, Potter, and you know this is going to be. a mess and she keeps saying oh, it's the kids, it's this person, it's that person and she doesn't realize that these people are a lot like the people she grew up with and I don't mean we're blaming the parents for the people because I think most parents did the best they could.

You know most parents really want to be good parents but sometimes they didn't know how or they were very limited or there were some mental health issues or whatever etc. They couldn't give their children that mirroring experience that you know is something they would want in an adult relationship and that's why it takes her so long to realize that when she meets someone who is going to give her what she wants, she like , oh I'm not

attracted

to her, there's no chemistry right, it's almost like she doesn't know how to be around someone who gives her what she wants and there's a learning process, we'll wait a minute just because something feels familiar. like the person letting you down doesn't mean it's okay you know that chemistry she kept feeling I was like oh you feel familiar come closer yeah it's like no the fact that you feel familiar should be a sign like let's try something different let's go on this one. unknown place and it will be uncomfortable because you don't know the customs of this country, you haven't been to this country before, you will have to use your guide and learn a little, but why not?

Don't you see what it is like in that country? Yeah, what's your take on the elusive chemistry when people talk about it when their partnerships? And you know, the way I've always understood it is. I've always felt that when you look. in chemistry and compatibility chemistry is something I can feel several times a day with different people, yes I can feel it with the barista, I can feel it with my personal trainer, I can feel it with someone I'm taking the train home with. chemistry, something I can feel over and over again, compatibility is something I can't, it's not as easy to replace, it took longer to build and it's something I have with fewer people in the world at large, yeah, and for me, I have it.

Always looking at chemistry is an elusive thing because I hear the same thing, my friends will come back from dates and be like Jay, like there's no chemistry. I'm like, okay, wait, so tell me how you've approached helping people understand the chemistry and and filter it better, yeah, so I love that we're having this conversation because it's a very important part of the relationship, so A lot of times people will say you know they went on a first date with someone and they'll say, yeah, no, me. I had a great time but there was no chemistry and I said, well, they're having a great time, it could mean there's potential for chemistry, yeah, but what they do is because they're on the apps and they're like, well, there's like 10,000. other people that I can hang out with and they just keep recycling and recycling and recycling and they don't give something time or space to grow and the chemistry sometimes happens right away and other times it takes time to grow so these surveys were done where where men and women were followed for 20 years from the time they went on a first date to marriages, divorces, you know all these things and what happened was a lot of people revised their stories depending on what happened next, so people who are happily married, let's say a lot of them said, you know, they'll tell us about the first date, when they tell it now they say, oh yeah, there was instant chemistry, but what they reported at the time was yeah, I don't know, maybe I will. . go on a second date, I don't know, there's not much here, but it builds up and so their story became that there was instant chemistry in this moment, people who were divorced sometimes said oh, I knew I never liked that system since the beginning and yet by the time they reported oh my gosh we had this amazing chemistry so it's not very reliable what I'm trying to say is the first time yeah it takes time so you have a first date or a first meeting with someone and see, did you pass it?

Did you have a good time? Would you like to spend another hour with this person and then see if something develops sometimes it does it many times it does it many times it doesn't but you will? I don't know until you give it a break. I have to tell you that you know there's a saying that we get married with our unfinished business and what I mean by that is that a lot of times if you haven't worked on some of these ways of being. In a relationship that didn't work out very well for you, you look for it in other people without realizing it, so the person will look very different from, say, your mom or your dad or whoever, and yet, once you You know that person, you're like God, you know, oh wait, this really feels like I admit I didn't see that quite right, so that's our unfinished business, so you really have to work on your stuff to be able to meet that person. the person you are.

I'm going to have authentic chemistry and not this kind of chaotic chemistry with Yes, chaotic chemistry is a very nice way of saying it because yes, that's often what it is, it's like everything is chaotic, but we feel like the chemistry is yeah, well, people have so much chemistry with this person, even though I can't trust them or I'm always nervous, I'm always nervous. I never know where I stand with this person, but we have so much chemistry, yeah, yeah, it's a crazy how I do it." I would love to date you again and I'm doing a little research on myself right now.

I would love to know if you already know what I am. I'm really interested in where that desire for chemistry came from, like where it came from. It started like we all have to want to feel chemistry like I wonder where there is a movie because I remember the first time I wanted a girlfriend it was because I saw a movie, yeah my favorite character was

attracted

to this girl and I was like. oh maybe I should have a girlfriend like you didn't know I was a kid and I didn't even know what that meant yeah it was so cleverly planted in my mind that I didn't feel complete without a partner and it's fascinating to me to see where these things started because sometimes they are things you have heard over and over again in movies, books or songs.

Yeah, I mean, I think we define chemistry as sort of like instant magic. and chemistry is so multifactorial that it's about knowing what this energy is that exists between the two of you and how you are together in everyday life, not like on vacation in Tahiti, so when people think about spending their lives with someone it's about the day to day it's about how we get through the hard things how we listen to each other how we deal with the points we disagree on how we deal with the differences between us because we think chemistry is like they overlap as if We would both love sushi and skating in this movie in that book and you know and we're vegan and you know whatever is right and that's not chemistry, yeah, chemistry is how we inhabit the same space knowing that there are two of us. separate human beings and how we stay connected even with the space between us hmm, yes absolutely, I love that, that's it, yes that's really powerful, tell me about how to deal with the paradox of being perceived as someone who has all the answers but it is also. consciously trying to grow in your own life, how does that paradox work for you?

Yeah, it's like you know the perception of not just your customers now, like you know you're going to have a TV show about the book, like the books have been incredibly successful. which is helping so many people, how do you personally handle that feeling of yes? I have answers and I know how to help people, obviously, you're helping people, you're changing people's lives and at the same time you're saying, yeah. but I'm still learning and I still have to work on this and I'm still working on how you're doing with that paradox or how yeah, well, that's interesting because in the book I follow four very different patients. where I'm your therapist and then the fifth patient in the book is me, yeah, while I'm doing my own therapy with my therapist and a lot of people say, well, how do you know you're crazy?

We don't, why would you do that? before the book came out, I think it's very small and the reason I did it is because I really felt that my patients were going to be so vulnerable. I felt like it would be disingenuous to be the expert and help these people when I was going to do it. through something in my own life and we all struggle and that's why I say at the beginning of the book that my greatest credential is that I am a carrying member of the human race and it was very important to me to show how we are all more equal than different and I think that That makes what people can learn from the book that much more powerful and impactful.

However, the interesting thing is that even though I was very sure that I wanted to do that oncetime book, so you know, I was supposed to write a different book. I guess I was reading a book about happiness and I felt very empty because I feel like happiness is a byproduct of living our lives in a fulfilling and meaningful way. It's really what we all hope for, but happiness is the goal in itself, it felt like a recipe for disaster, so I felt like I was just a therapist and I was trying to write this book about happiness and it was making me Depressed, ironically , I called it the miserable depression-inducing happiness book and I ended up not writing that book and then I ended up writing this book and I thought like maybe three people would read it because everyone was like, "Oh, you know, no one wants to read it, no one wants to read a book about therapy and it's a book about the human condition," so once the book was delivered and the sales team received it at the publisher and everyone started passing the book around and I thought, oh no, maybe because I thought that three people would read it and I'm like 300 here, maybe 3000.

I didn't realize we're like 10 months in New York. List of times now, well, thanks, I say that only in the context of if I had known how many people were going to read it, I think I would have hesitated to be so open, I let it blow up, I mean, I don't come off well. I'm very alone, this is what happened and I let it go, so I'm very glad I didn't cleanse myself because they think if I had, yeah, people wouldn't have read. I think that's why people do it. respond to it and see themselves in these stories is because we are all very real in the book, you know, I know, but he is clean in the book, yes, I agree, and I think that's beautiful and I think that that message is a lot. stronger today too and I'm so glad you didn't know it's funny, although don't we sometimes feel like you would?

And I'm glad you didn't know, and I know you didn't know, because you're so happy to share, but it's weird that we think I thought a lot more people were going to see this. I would not do it. What is it about? It's just that there are more possibilities and chances that people will have problems with what is so challenging. What is it that prevents us from being more vulnerable the more people see us? Because I feel like when you're not very well known it's like you're trying hard to be known and then you meet people who are very well known and they're almost trying hard to be known. more privacy, yeah, you know, it's true, I'm sure you see that in your work all the time.

I think people are afraid, I mean, I think they're ashamed, so you know, as a therapist, you know. let people see me fight, yeah, yeah, and say you know here. I mean, I do all the things with my therapist that my patients do with me, so you look at me like I want him to like you and I stalk him on Google one night and you. I know you do and it's embarrassing, you know because you think well people will think less of me, people will think I'm less competent or you know what you imagine and that hasn't been the case at all.

Yeah, you know, I think people do. I said I you know I really value what you share mm I really respect you, I admire you for that and I think that translates into people in the world being more open with each other because the title of the book maybe you should Talk to Someone It doesn't mean we all need to necessarily go to therapy, it means we all need to talk to each other more and so I can model that for people if I can't, you know, lead by example if I can. If I don't do what I ask people to do, then there's a big gap, yeah, but if I actually do it, I think it helps people say, well, if she can do it, yeah, then I can do it too.

Absolutely, absolutely, and what have you seen? that those patterns of clients that you meet and are working with have seen the greatest transformations in their lives, there are patterns in those people who have certain shared beliefs, values, work ethics, habits that help them follow whatever advice you give them. you have given or others. therapies that give them that change eventually like what has been that kind of x factor that people have shared. I think what happens is they publish the story that they came with and sometimes it's these stories that you know the content of what they.

I'm saying this is what's going on in my relationship, this is what's going on with my anxiety and they have a story about it, so they think the content is the story, but what I'm hearing is some kind of music. below the letter. the lyrics are, you know, I'm having panic attacks, the music is what is the underlying struggle or pattern that's getting you into this situation and once they can see that, that can translate into everything that happens in their daily life. , but I think it takes courage I think it takes a lot of courage for them to say I'm going to make changes.

I always like to say that insight is the greatest prize of therapy. That you can have all the insight in the world. You can say now. I understand why. I'm struggling this way now I understand why I have these arguments with my partner and I'll say well did you do anything different? Yes and they say well, no, but now I understand, you're not really doing the work because you have to do something different and I love this quote from Viktor Frankl that's in the book where he wrote between stimulus and response there's a space in that space.

It is the power to choose our response in our response lies our growth and our freedom so yes, there They may be difficult people, but then the question is what is our role in that and why are we in that relationship or what is our role in to make that relationship so chaotic, so difficult, so much tension in it, why is it like that, what is that? What can we do the next time that person does that thing that triggers us, we can have a different response because the response we keep giving produces the same thing, nothing changes, so when we talk about insight it is the silly prize of therapy, it is not about just having the The idea is that you have to make changes and you have to look, that means you can make changes, you are not going to change the other person, but your changes can influence another person, so it is always like dancing well , so you change your dance steps that person also has to change their dance steps or they will fall to the floor or they can leave the dance floor, yes, but the good thing is that you changed your dance steps mmm and that's the thing when you say which is the unifier.

What they all have in common when they have made changes that have truly transformed their lives is that they chose different dance steps, yes that is great advice and I love that dance step analogy. I can visualize it perfectly. It makes a lot of sense and I think one of the things that I hear in that sense with a lot of people that I talk to and ask them for advice, which is fantastic and everyone listened to the podcast as well is the feeling that I know what I have to do to change but I'll only do it for a few days and if that person doesn't change their dance they come back into alignment with me right now I give in or I let it go and sometimes it's genuine and sometimes it's not genuine sometimes it's like, well if they don't change, I am not going to change, but for many friends it is as if I am going to change and I will be the best husband in the world. world for three months, but if you know, but she never changes, that's fine, so here's the thing: you're not changing for them, you're changing for yourself one hundred percent, so if you stop changing in a positive way for yourself Same thing, you're letting yourself down. so you're not doing it to get a different response from the other person, if you get a different response from the other person, that's great, but you're doing it to get a different response from yourself, you're doing it so you're making choices that they align with how you want to be in the world and when you make decisions that align with how you want to be in the world, you're going to be putting a different energy out there than maybe someone will, that will potentially influence someone, but it certainly will.

They influence you and the decisions you make to not make a change and it's not a contest, you know, it's not a contest of whether I change, you need to change or you need to change first. I see this with very similar couples. like I'll only change when you change and it's a fight, it's a historical fight that they have since their childhood like I'll only change mom and dad when you become the father that I needed you to be back then, but you're an adult now it's like if we were close that they don't totally fit you anymore and you're still trying to get those clothes like getting out of those clothes, you're free if there's this analogy in the book that I love that my therapist used on me, he said, you remind me of a cartoon and it's of a prisoner shaking the bars desperately trying to get out, but to the right and left the bars are open, there are no bars.

Yeah, right, I was like, whoa, I'm my own jailer, yeah. Sometimes we, our own jailers, think we are trapped by everyone and everything else, but we are the ones who keep ourselves imprisoned. I just did a TED talk about this and it was about the idea that we know this on some level. that the bars are open but we don't want to go out because if we go out we will have to change and when we change that means that we have to take responsibility for our lives and sometimes we would prefer to blame someone for everything that goes wrong.

Otherwise, yeah, you know, if I take responsibility for my life, then I'm also responsible for what doesn't work. I can't blame my bad mood, my bad day, my bad circumstances, my failure to take risks with this other person. I have to be responsible. to myself for that mm-hmm and how about when people take that responsibility but instead of acting, they turn into anger themselves? I thought that's half of what scares people, like it's easier to blame everyone else and everything else goes wrong because then at least I don't hate myself, yeah, but that's when you take it in and sometimes , that can launch you into action, as I was literally sharing with a friend yesterday.

I was saying there was a time in my life when I could have sat down. and I blamed the people around me. I knew I had to be responsible and take action in my life and take ownership of it and I thought this is my life, if I'm going to blame them I'll be sad, so that led me to action, but we also discovered that it can make people get angry, how do you stop someone from getting into that space where they now see that everything is their fault and now it's like they're just a bad person and they start to become very negative about themselves? right self-talk well, I would say two things, one is we really talk a lot about self-compassion because self-compassion helps you see how complicated human beings are, it helps you see that I am, yes, I am these things and also these things and both. they can coexist.

I'm growing here and I'm learning here and I made this regrettable decision here, but I'm going to learn from it and self-compassion breeds compassion for others, so then we'll be more compassionate on the outside. world because we also see the complexities of other people, so I think when you are weak, instead of turning responsibility into anger, you can say, I'm going to be very kind to myself because there is no growth possible without compassion and growth. It can happen without vulnerability and you can't really be vulnerable if you're not going to be compassionate because you're going to have too much anger, yeah, coloring it, so I think that's part of it and I think the other thing is also remembering to punish yourself with anger.

It will distract you from something that we all have to face and this will sound like a non sequitur but it's not, and that is that we are all going to die, okay, life has a one hundred percent mortality rate. and that's not just for other people and that's why I think sometimes we spend a lot of time angry because we don't want to think about it. I really have limited time here and we get so scared that we're like oh my God, what am I? What I'm going to do, I have to make my life worth living and I have to do all these things that I want to do and we are so afraid of not being able to achieve those things that we would rather sit in anger and not do them.

I don't have to think about it at all, so I really want people to be aware that there is a saying that I love: time is the currency of life, spend it well hmm, you are not spending it well when you are angry with yourself or With other people, you know anger, there's something called an anger iceberg, so it's like this if you can imagine this image as the iceberg and here's kind of a water line, then anger is on top but underneath there are more vulnerable feelings. sadness anxiety regret you know whatever anger is just to disguise it it's just the frontal experience of harm yes, we are very afraid of all our emotions, even the good ones, we are afraid of joy, there is a word La chera phobia, which in reality is their fear of joy, and there are people who maybe when they were growing up, every time they felt good for a moment, the other one fell off, you know something bad would happen and then they felt very uncomfortable because of the joy.

For them it was almost like an anticipatory pain, like it wouldn't last, so I'd rather never experience joy than know it's going to go away, that was their way of thinking, yeah, it's too painful when I'm hopeful and I think everything's going to be okay. . and then boom, it disappears, so there'syeah, you probably wouldn't say much, I think you would, I think we know how to be nice, I think you know everything. These obstacles get in the way mm-hmm but I think when we remove them you know all the noise and our heads and there's so much noise that we innately know how to be kind you know it's it's it's kind it's true and it's It's helpful if it meets those three criteria, then go ahead and say it and once you practice that, you don't need to premeditate so much, you will do it and organically you will start talking that way with other people, yes, absolutely in the in the bhagavad-gita, but from the code of India, um, the forests, territories of the word, so, it is true, it is beneficial for everything, this is my favorite, can it be said in a way that does not add to Tate the minds of others? point of law, how can you say it in a way that doesn't stir up mental sounds and then the fourth is whether it is based on a spiritual text and a fundamental text?

Well, fifth and one last question for you, what is the most important lesson you have learned in the last twelve months? People really want to be open. I think I knew that as a therapist, but I didn't realize it. I thought well, maybe in these small groups of people who go to therapy those are the people who want to be open, everyone wants to tell their story and everyone has a story, people think, well, my story is not that interesting or my story It's a bit boring, no one's stories are fascinating. and I have traveled all over the country since last April, when the book came out and people are telling their stories and each one of them is fascinating and they are realizing that their story has value, yes, and often the silent or untold stories of the stories that are most interesting, yeah we were talking about that now, like I know people in my vicinity who have fascinating lives and stories that may become a movie or maybe never become a book, but they're just fascinating stories of resilience and human connection and power forward and everything else and I think we learned a lot from other people's stories and that's why in the book so many people have said oh, I learned a lot about myself even though they're not. in the book because it's very different if I told you Jay, if I told you that you know you are like this or you do this, you would say well, no, I don't, I don't do that right, that's our answer, but if you see someone else do it you can say oh, I'm something like that.

I mean, I do that sometimes. It's not at all threatening to see yourself in other people's stories, which is why I think we all need to share our stories more absolutely. I agree and thank you for encouraging people to do that Lori, you're amazing, everyone, this is Laurie Gottlieb , maybe you should talk to someone, go grab a copy of the book. I promise you it's a fun, entertaining, and like-you read. I've seen it, it's deeply insightful and empowering, please go and grab a copy like I said, we'll put the link to the Amazon order in the captions and comments, Laurie, this has been amazing, talking to you has been phenomenal. with you in a sauna / not in a sauna, but I just didn't want to say: I love what you're doing.

I love the way you present it. I think it's exactly the language and storytelling that the world and I need today. I am very happy that it has been such an incredible success and I am very grateful to myself today. They are very grateful for our conversation. Thank you. I'm so excited for everyone to read this. Go follow Laurie on social media. the best place for people to find you they can find me on Twitter at laurie Gottlieb one you can find me on instagram at laurie Gottlieb underline author you can find me on my website laurie Gottlieb com you can remind her of her therapist column that comes out every Monday in the Atlantic you can read the book, yeah, perfect, follow her on all social media platforms and I'll tag her in all of these posts if there's anything that Laurie said that really stood out to you and that really resonated there. connected, please tag Laurie and I on Instagram and share it so I'll like to see what connects with you.

It means a lot to me because it helps me ask better questions for you and also helps me understand our guests better. please do thanks for watching or listening see soon