Ankur Singla : Helpchat Founder On Startup Journey

I'd like to call Uncle Singler, the host is the

founder

and CEO of Akasha Health Chat Help Chat. Hear it from the guy on how to build, climb, and make tough decisions on your way to a big round of applause, welcome gentlemen, hello everyone, my name is. Of course, England, the

founder

and CEO in health chat just to understand the audience. How many of you are here in your own

startup

s? Can we raise our hands? Alright? And how many of you are here, who are students and me. I guess maybe some of the other people work at multiple companies.

How many of you have had a

startup

for more than two years here? Well, we have quite a few people who have been part of the ecosystem for a while, so I think Ashish called. Last week he said to me: Hello, you know, we want, we would love to have you there to share the

journey

. We were doing something very different about a year ago. What we are doing today there were many ups and downs along the

journey

. What I'll do is explain to you very quickly, we've been at this for about four and a half years.

I'll walk you through that journey and then I think I'd rather answer a lot more questions. Instead of speaking for myself, I came to the startup world with a very unconventional background. I happen to be a lawyer. In fact, I studied here in Bangalore for five years in the national law college. I think the law was a strange choice. I really didn't want to do it. I did law, but it was a good university. I had very intelligent classmates and I learned a lot. I grew up in a very important phase of your life where you go from being a child to an adult and I worked for a couple of years.

I hated it. I was in London as a corporate lawyer. I always used to be envious of the other side of the table. The other side of the table was usually the clients, the business people, the people who were generally doing well, you know, and enjoying their work much better. You know, I had taken a lot more risks and I knew I was about 24 and a half at the time and I knew I had to stop doing something on my own in order to really fulfill my dreams or really have a good work life, so I quit in 2009.

I belong to Chandigarh so I first went to Chandigarh where my parents stay and you know I was trying to make a startup which was essentially a copy of an American startup called LegalZoom so LegalZoom was this company. in the US In 2012 they had raised around $65 million from Kleinert's work on one of the dotcom survivors, so LegalZoom was essentially to help you make your legal documents online on the web, so My first startup was called I was here quietly, so I decided in 2009. I just didn't, I had no idea how the Internet worked. I chose a domain name that I didn't really know, you know, wouldn't make much sense later.

I was here for those who don't know the means of wills, so we were making wills for people online. So it was as random an idea as it gets, so I worked hard. I hired my first developer, you know, and started learning a little bit about coding back in the day. Mobile devices were very relevant. You know, learning about front-end coding in coding. Does the database work? How do you build something to scale, etc., then you worked on all the wrong things. There was no MVP in 2009 or at least I hadn't heard of it. We used to read a little. by Paul Graham, but there was pretty much nothing else after working on the product for about eight and nine months, we launched it.

I sent an email to 40 users and 40 friends of mine and they all responded saying this is why someone would do an I'll be online and until then I had done it, every time I met them face to face I kept convincing them that this would happen and if they didn't believe me, I just told them that the Amok coach near him obstructed me. I'll go and talk. to someone else, so I think it was a bit of a delusional face, but I think you have to be a bit delusional to do a new company in the first place, so it failed, it was difficult, but I think the other thing that happened was that you I did to move from Chandigarh to Delhi the reason was that I had made two offers two or two guys had just graduated from Punjab University there is very little talent in Chandigarh at least in 2009 there was not that much the day the guy was supposed to would join so you know a guy called and neither of them showed up so I called one of them and he said sir I'm a good octoman okay okay I'm a mini montre so it was okay , well like I don't know what to say and this is like a grown man, he's 24, he just graduated etc so I called the other guy and asked him about apnea Anitha Pyke uni and he said he made them up . new car manufacturer Kiruna so I tell you that you know this is not the kind of place where I can really think about building a startup or a company and you know Chandigarh is a great place.

I don't know if any of you are here. from Chandigarh, but yeah, okay, two of you two, so I grew up there, but it was very difficult to build a company, so I moved to Delhi. I got a 2 BHK and Kalkaji was one of those. How many of you are here from Delhi at some point? Well, we have some people from Delhi, one of those long, thin houses that has no light when you enter. As a single lawyer looking for a house without a job, getting a place in Delhi was very difficult and I started there and then I believe. things started to get better, we got our first, the first thing we did was we said okay, this obviously doesn't make sense, so we said let's expand the type of things we're going to do for our users, so we just had wills. on Vysya, don't worry so we need a new name so this time we chose an empty name last time it was too specific this time we will name it something we can do anything on because we had no idea what we were trying to do. so we said: let's add as many documents to the platform, so we said you can make a rental agreement or a power of attorney and then one day I was talking to someone and someone suggested to me: why don't you help people with complaints about the consumers too and I said look, that's a very complicated place to be in, I don't really want to do it, but let's see, I put the fourth button there and then, little by little, luck started, you know, the Rediff job covered us in 2010 , we got a first.

You know, four hundred visits on the same day and almost 90 percent of users started clicking on consumer complaints and we received 65 complaints on the same day, so somehow, without realizing it, we found a product suitable for the market, it was obvious that you know the other things won't work in hindsight, it was clear that the rental deal your broker makes for 500 rupees without much hassle for you and involves a visit to the local registrar etc. sometimes at least powers of attorney are usually seen as handling and making wills, no one does them and for people who are on the internet it is very difficult to suggest to your dad that dad will be Bonello, so you know that is not happening so there is no way to Focus on that business.

So we changed and changed the name of the company. Actually, the name was already kosher, but we removed everything else overnight and only filed consumer complaints. We'll help you figure them out, so here we are in January 2011 and I was struggling with two very big ones. One of the problems was that I had no idea, so I went and became part of the Morpheus accelerator program again. Have you heard of Morpheus because it almost doesn't exist properly anymore, but when it was there, at least for people like me, it was a It was a blessing that it was directed by a guy named Samir Kook Lonnie and Anthony; two of them, husband and wife, made their startup reasonably successful, but I found out that they were excellent mentors for me, so they had four months. acceleration program actually, right now there are quite a few companies that were part of Morpheus at some point, but because mod face is not present, you don't hear much about it, so the practice was one of them, the common floor It was another, the interview, Street was another.

One we were there and there was another company called Cleveo that went to the US and raised money from Andreessen Horowitz and a couple of other funds, so they were actually all, you know, a startup accelerator that doesn't exist. they saw a reasonable amount of success with at least some companies, they did, they did about 40 of which five, six are still around and they're not doing reasonably well, but anyway, that was one of the two challenges I had was as a non-technological person. I needed a technical person to help me build the vision and so on, and that was incredibly painful.

Back in 2011, I wrote a blog post about this, also called Satellite Developer Moff, so I went through seven developers who had come and gone and I actually, you know, almost pissed me off that this must be something bad about me, but it ended. being that in reality the real problem to solve was traction and not looking for a CTO because most of the time what I understood was that it is better to have one. Actually, the best thing, or rather the way to get a really good CTO is probably not to focus on hiring them, but to focus on building the company in such a way that it can attract the right type of person, so it was difficult. learning, but at that time we took the call, you know, instead of hiring eight CTO candidates, and this was over a period of a year and a half, so it was quite painful in the middle.

I went and started learning how to code myself. I saw that over the weekend I started taking coding classes and that too for Drupal PHP, so Drupal was what we were using in general and then I started writing some PHP hooks and everything, but it was pretty obvious that this won't work and we can't really build something big and massive with that, so I bet it's not the best idea, you know, those days of the Paul Graham article had two big things, one is to never be a company with a single founder, so The second, obviously, it's amazing to have a co-founder of a tech company and I didn't have one either, so we made the decision to outsource because there was no other easy path in front of us for us to take. , so there's this very smart guy. he had a lot of experience and a lot of technicians under him and I say this to those who are probably not taking and are probably struggling, we donated about 6% of our capital and said, look, we'll give you forty-five. thousand rupees every month, you developed for us, the top man got the capital, the people below him got the salary and that's how we got it going, then the product kept building side by side and you know I could focus completely in letting you know more and more growth in the business, so the business we were doing was essentially the first thing we inadvertently understood from the Rediff article was the fact that people needed help with consumer complaints, but we still it was not a product market that suited him.

It wasn't yet something that we could say that we could turn into a big business or that we could actually make people pay for it, in January in February of 2011 and I'll go through the story much quicker after this anecdote, but in January in February of 2011. We have two interns and we said, let's find the shortest path from A to B. How do we instead of waiting for consumers to come to our website and then file a complaint and then find a way to get them to pay? We should find the shortest shortcut, so in those days, if you had posted a complaint with your mouth shut and left your phone number, we would pick up the phone and call you and say, "Hey, we have this new organization trying to help people to resolve their complaints.

It is very very painful after you have called the call center but we can help you and we called 768 people and converted 31 so these 31 people agreed to pay Rs 500 per person, Rs 500 per complaint and that is how we started and then. From there there was no turning back, so for the first two and a half years, what if I unlearned what I had learned as a lawyer and learned about technology, learned about the Internet, learned about products, etc., and finally found a product that fit the market and then? From there, a lot of the scaling was done on a shoestring, so I injected it.

I had saved around 1314 lakhs during my two years in London. I pumped that in and then the transformation was Rs 5 lakh and then we grew slowly in May this year. year we raised around a hundred crore from Sequoia and other fun, so it's been a very, very exciting journey, with a lot of downs, I think for people like most startups or people who are generally ambitious, the Highs last much less or last much less time than lows because every other day we are struggling with something or another. I interrupt him. Now I will talk about more recent things that happened in the company agoabout a year, actually not a year ago, about two years ago, in January 2014, we were still a primarily web company and we launched a phone line that we said was the equivalent of the national consumer help line, but we did much better.

You as a consumer could call us and tell us your problem and we will help you solve it, so we launched. that and the numbers doubled overnight. I remember back then we were doing about a thousand complaints a day and we jumped to 2,000 overnight, but the interesting thing that happened with that was that the nature of the problems that were coming to us changed dramatically, so before One person I would write a complaint saying that Mathe organized a call, a team was cut, a guy like I thought. IDO Pease got a PhD for the whole caller without my consent and now they were saying how do I go from 2G to 3G, so suddenly we realized that by launching the phone line, we were moving up the value chain where we no longer We weren't focused on complaints but we worked on it becoming more and more about queries and over time we moved towards discovery and transactions etc.

Before I would say my configuration box is not working or I had reloaded this quantity now. I don't know where that recharge amount is. Now you would ask me what is the best deal on recharge or what is the best deal on XY and Z and the other good thing that happened with this change was that suddenly we were not always depending on the brand to resolve consumer complaints like we did before, In this case it became more about things that we could attend to ourselves by building knowledge. base and give people a much better experience etc, that's how the seed of the help chat was born because again it was totally unnoticed, we actually launched it to increase the numbers, but it changed the nature of the interaction on our platform and a From there we created a mobile app, the first mobile app actually didn't work at all.

We had created a mobile application that was like an IVR system where we thought, in any case, let's trace what the consumer's journey is when he calls a call center from an air that tells a story is about to corrode calls a month, so for an Airtel out of screw corrode calls many of them only 5 lakhs may be about complaints rest are about queries etc so let's build an app which is a visual IVR press 1, 3 and 7 and you click call, it will connect you directly to a postpaid billing human being and if when the call disconnects, it goes back from the dialer to our app and we can, we can. ask, we can't, we asked you to rate it if it was good, great, it's a data point we have, if it was bad we would ask you to file a complaint and that was the app we came out with. we got about 1520k downloads and we went to the users and they said look everything is fine but is there any way we don't have to pay for the call?

It was very strange feedback because we thought they would give you feedback on the IVR they would have feedback on 20 other things but they said there is some way we don't have to do that so first we started talking to the cloud phone companies to see if that makes the app more popular. I even tried that but very soon it became obvious that that is not the way to do it and the next thing that happened is that we can have the branch start chatting on the platform and so on. At this point we already had around 25 or 28.

Enterprise clients paying us close to you, one and a half lakh or 2 lakhs every month according to SAS. It was a SAS software that we had created so that they could manage all the complaints that we presented to them for the business. to make money and we had a lot of relationships with brands, so we thought we could definitely create a product that could connect consumers to the brand or companies through chat and then we could get them to respond, that's kind of like The idea changed from purely complaining on the web to being able to do other things besides complaining and then it became very, very broad to what we're doing today, I think in terms of from a travel perspective, I think there's three four things. that have helped us in some ways, I think the first thing has been that you know, like the previous speaker somewhere, I think saying you know you have to be like a cockroach, you just survive and I think one thing that I keep telling myself to myself and my team and during the bad days there is a lot to gain by staying in the game, so once you are dead there is no point other than doing whatever it takes to survive and, if you survive, something good.

It will happen, it may take 10 years, 15 years, 20 years to build companies and that's perfectly fine, but if you're around, you'll be the one building something meaningful. The second thing that I think was very useful for us was finding the shortest path from A to B. I think this was a hard-learned lesson, it's not very intuitive, so for example, at first we would say yes. we want to launch behave like a big company if only you want to, if your goal is, for example, to find the customer. intention, you probably don't even need to create a website or a mobile app and 20 other things find a way to do it without having to go through all these processes, so I think that helped us a lot.

I think the third thing is equipment due to the fact that I had no technical skills I made sure to surround myself with engineers. I don't have another lawyer in the company fortunately I can talk quite intelligently with the engineers at least and no one has abandoned us. The best team in the last four years. I met them all without realizing it. My network didn't include any engineers because I had worked in commerce at Plus 2 and then Law at university, so I didn't have any engineering friends, but I think the best team did. I stayed and I think one thing that has worked for me as CEO and founder has been that the whole working style has been very, very open.

We already know the top 7 people that we have very, very open in terms of communication and us. making decisions a lot of times with consensus, obviously the responsibility falls on me and sometimes I have to make some difficult decisions too, so I think Eric's stuff is very gendered, there's no rocket science, but I think there were a lot of low moments. I never thought of shutting it down but I think staying in the game is everything and I think if you really look at most of the people who have been very successful except a few like Bhavish or the guys at Ola and Flipkart also in a I started a search comparison on a price comparison website before starting Flipkart, but they were not down for that long, but in reality, for many people the journey has been full of ups and downs and it has taken people some time to find it, so If you go by the philosophy that this will take some time, I think long-term things should work out.

I think that's all. I guess that was the purpose of talking about kosher to help Chad on his journey. I think what I'll do is start answering questions and I think then I'll be able to talk about the things that are going through your mind. So can we have some questions? Does anyone have any questions? There are two people? Alright. Sorry to ask this as the first question, but we had this mid-session presentation this morning, so wait, wait, do you compare yourself with haptics? So there are two ways to answer that one. is that we follow all the competitors very, very closely, we do mystery shopping on ourselves and our competitors, obviously, I will say that our scores are the best, which they actually are, but you don't have to believe that, except the second.

The thing is, I don't think anyone noticed. I think creating an app like a help chat or a personal assistant. I know because I do it almost daily. I know what retention cohorts are like. I know which features work. I know where customer experience sucks, so for me it's not so much about haptics or even good service. I also closely follow Magic, the operator, Facebook em, Baidu personal assistant and Google now and about 30 other products that you wouldn't have. I have heard about including the top 20 startups in India. I can name them all. I follow everyone and that's pretty much my job, but I'm NOT one.

They don't show me the way forward by any means, so yeah, that's all I can do. Follow them, but we know that doesn't lead to any learning and I'll tell you why, the reason is that what works today on five hundred eight hundred thousand five thousand chats doesn't work on fifty thousand text messages a day, for now. okay and you'll see some of those things as the product diverges quite a bit, you know everyone's going to end up doing it the way they think is the best way, but we think having seen a little bit more scale, we've seen a lot.

For more customers, we now have the ability to develop a personal assistant that really delivers on the very ambitious promise of being a personal system and with respect to this journey from being a customer, I mean the resolution of complaints, you know, I mean the service of what you are now, what you were. really the problem there that I couldn't understand from what you mentioned was really a scale problem it was a business model problem what was really what you know you went from being a customer complaint resolution service provider to so in reality is okay?

Answer the question again in two ways: one is that there is no specific problem per se, you know, in the sense that the life of an entrepreneur is difficult day in and day out, there are so many different things moving throughout those four five years. At one point the challenge seems reasonably difficult when you look back, it seems like you were worried about something that's not that important, but to answer that question specifically, I think there were three four challenges that we had to address internally. The first was Delhi. We were finding it a little difficult to build a world-class company product philosophy and I also think in technology we were finding it a little difficult to find the kind of talent we wanted, so we moved the senior team to Bengaluru and that will cause some dissonance within the team existing in Delhi and there were people who were not happy with the fact that it seems that the center of the companies is moving to Bengaluru, but for us it was the right decision among the top six to seven people. some were also married so their wives sacrificed, some of them quit their job and now they are here in bangalore, in retrospect it was actually a very good decision, bangalore we have been able to hire some of the best product talents . available, our product manager came from Zynga and other places at mobi Adobe and so on, so I think one good thing was that once we made the decision, it didn't matter if it was the right one. what to do, we would go ahead and do it even if it causes some problems.

I think the second thing people say is you know this company has this DNA or this company has that DNA. I think, to some extent, it's both. true and not true to the extent that it is true that scam fraud moves from a customer experience management type of space to suddenly towards the front end of the funnel towards transactions, ultimately caused some resonance for everyone us and it's Sometimes it's hard to think in those terms, so for example, the speaker before the previous one was talking about sales and D usage, etc., a year ago it wasn't very intuitive to know that that's what works, although throughout the conference. own experience you've been shopping on a flip kart instant sale or traveling and Olaf because of the discounts they're giving etc. but it doesn't always connect with you so yeah so I think building that transaction mentality took us probably Three to six months and once you see that you are failing over and over again and you go back and go out and talk to a lot of people, you discover the right place.

I think the third thing was a bit of a shift, but I think that's more because we've scaled and raised money and gone public, done a brand campaign and become more publicly aware, etc., was the fact that that suddenly things were different in a kosher, we were like that. player for the entire space and so on in the help chat we will compete with people we will be in the public eye there will be people who will talk about us either positively or negatively sometimes the press will talk positively or negatively, I think that was also one Another change which happened over time as we changed the business model, but I think the first principles remain the same, find the shortest path from A to B, keep at it and hopefully something should happen.

We're pretty paranoid about success, but we also know it will happen. tomatoa long time, okay, there was a question at the end, you have a question, okay, so she just asked about the recent event that we were in the news about, which is about people being laid off. I clarified it in my blog, but essentially two. Things actually happened, yes, so maybe that's the reason for that question, so another thing that happened was that in Delhi, for a KO shot for the complaint management part, we had several people who were in the call center because we were addressing complaints. the phone too, which is what I had explained before, what happened was that we tried very hard to make them chat experts because we needed people and hiring people is very difficult, some of them had worked with us for a while, but the problem is that In Delhi the quality of the skills they returned was very very poor so you know they can talk on the phone but they can't write in English, they can understand English but they can't write in English and then you know we waited two months , three months. then we said they can't do it, they can't be chat experts, they can't be quality experts because we make them quality, then they would do it well, they can't read English properly or they won't be able to guide the chat expert etc., we said that it was okay, let's move them to a part of their business team like we tried everything, so people actually tried four or five different places and then it got to a point where they were literally free for two months and we said, look.

It's not working, we've tried very, very hard, let's talk to three or four starters who at the moment are trying to poach some people from our team anyway and we said, you know, let's call them here and see if we can get it. you guys are out of line because it definitely is, it's very, very difficult to expand on them. The second part that happened was that we also tried another innovation that ultimately didn't work, which was the work from home project, where what we said was: you know this. These are chats where you could help the customer answer all of these by creating a knowledge base and to some extent also some dependency on Google.

Why? Instead of having all these people inside the office building the infrastructure and doing all this, why don't we have people working from home? Most of them were women. The women working from home program was quite successful on some scale, but then it started to break down very, very quickly and the reason it broke was that it was very, very difficult to actually verify gifts in a chat software, so that, for example, for us, if a chat comes in and you're logged in but you're not sitting at your computer, it was becoming very difficult to really track down what the reason was why you couldn't respond or didn't respond.

There were also many in India, you see a number of, you could say almost bad behavior, where there were some of the total who did not answer the chats themselves, they asked their son or their husband to answer etc., so you can Imagine everything you know, if you can let people get away with it, people end up doing that and then it got to a point where the The only way to build a hard core system that had a lot of accountability was create a desktop client for them, at which point I said: look, you know this is a slippery slope, we should build more and more innovation and customization on the front-end. of the application instead of trying to do it because we have made the decision to work from home if we cannot write if we cannot provide the level of user experience that we want to our users because of this, then let's find a way to close it and when it We closed we gave them a month's notice and their salary and so on, and that's where the dilemma is: you know people were still unhappy and they have a right to be unhappy and that's okay, even I can do it.

I don't do much about it, but I think the dilemma was essentially that when you lay people off, do you ask them to leave the same day or do you let them serve the 30-day notice period and that's something some of you will do as well. Face the typical, you know, me and my position this week Twitter laid off 336 people just today Zomato is laying off 300 people and so on and it seemed like we were the first or rather before us, actually a couple of startups too They had laid off some people, but I think there are no easy answers here, you have to take those calls and stay focused on the business we had to do, it was an experiment that failed, but I keep telling my team not to worry, no Do it.

I don't care so much about the negative press because if it stops you from experimenting next time anyway, you know we wouldn't actually do it, we wouldn't have as much innovation as we'd like, so some things will go wrong and that's okay. I could have handled some things much better, but it wouldn't have changed the decision we made. I guess that answers your question. Okay, there was someone back. I think so. I have a question about your application. Help chat. Yes, so I have. I've been a regular user of this app for quite some time and I've been seeing that the app also offers a pretty wide set of things, which is good, but my question is: what does it help chat do better? that the user should like to look at what you know I have to achieve and the second thing is what is it that the user can expect in the coming days or months as a major offer from the help chat app as it has a set very broad of offerings is pretty fair, so there is this whole set, so there are two three ways to answer this question and no one has really created a very large personal assistant for millions of users, but Microsoft has noticed.

You know, everyone is trying something. or another, but I think the trick of the personal assistant is in the customization, so there are two levels to your question: the first is grouping and disaggregation, as I see it, can you really group together in so many use cases and still well represent something to the user? You know, I went to China in March/April and met with WeChat because they were putting together a lot of multiple use cases. I met up with the $0.10 guys and I met up with Chiyomi, who is trying to do some of this stuff. there, the dialer because they own the entire operating system of the phone we went to.

I came across do, which is to make Baidu more with making maps, Baidu Maps more taxis, etc., across the board, there are actually a lot of learnings about what can be included and what can't be included, but currently There is no right or wrong answer if I look at the behavior of the app, the categories that people are very happy to use and come back to again and again are categories like shopping assistant which is a big category, offers and coupons are also very big and then you have a lot of other categories, it's quite so the tapas category is probably 14 to 15 percent, which means all the other 10 categories are too, you know, there's not much The head big is pretty flat after that, so in terms of what the user tells us, I think it's good for us in the sense that a real life personal assistant, if you think about him or her, you don't think about him or she.

In terms of a specific sector, their job is not actually to go get food for you, so their job is to help you do multiple things in different sectors and that took us some time to realize and put in the effort and Now that we have in the last two and a half months what we actually had almost three months ago, what we are trying to do now is that this is how it will be, we will probably never be an application where there is only one use case. As it is traditionally understood, people come here to take taxis or go shopping or anything else, but those people should come here because it is a personal assistant that can do different things for them, so the abstraction layer is slightly over.

Now, how do you become a personal assistant? Well, we have about eight different parameters by which we judge ourselves, we are not good at many of them nowadays, but now there is a certain path to be able to get there and one of them is that a personal assistant has to be very, very personalized to you, you have to be able to anticipate your needs, you have to be able to find the best possible for you and you also have to have an opinion so that as we develop the product it really flows in all three in all these directions and so on as far as the next three to six months, we're basically focused on about five different things without any applications and we're seeing a lot of traction on one of them is the deal that we recently acquired. a company called nefler, very, very smart guys, we got them to move from Bombay and become part of a team here, so the deals that we have acquired now we will build on that in the second, the second feature of the application.

Being close to taxis Taxis are actually one of the daily use cases, but our user behavior showed that people who actually go to two or three different apps in the morning try to find the fastest one, so now we say that we can integrate them all and then start building like a personal assistant on top of that, we understand what space you normally take, we know which one is the cheapest, we know you are flying somewhere so we can guess and book a taxi for you, we can also intimidate you. when the price increase might start, we can do that too, so there's actually a lot of use cases you can build once you know it's going to follow an EPA approach and build from there, not all of them will ship at the same time, in fact, building an app that has so many different types of things takes a lot of time and effort to ship, but I think over the next three to six months you'll see a dramatically different experience in the app.

The other thing we realized is that chat doesn't work for everything, there was a whole very loud conversation about messaging and how everything is going to change or WeChat is doing X or Y in China and so on. I think all of that is true, but I think one aspect of that is a bit of a nuance is that not everything is actually easier to do in chat; In fact, a lot of transaction-oriented things are actually much harder to do in chat, so finding out that there was no one we could have gone to and learned from, that led us to learn.

Three to six months because again it was working on a smaller scale, it doesn't work on a larger scale. Okay thank you very much. Okay thank you very much. Thanks again.