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Simon Sinek: The Advice Young People NEED To Hear | E176

Mar 03, 2024
The most important lesson I learned in my career that profoundly changed the course of my life was the multi-time best-selling author, the third most-watched Ted Talk of all time, the return of Simon Sinek, thank you very much, plus 30, 40 years, we have doubled our bet. in How do I find love? How do I find happiness? We have doubled down on our selfishness, but now, in a complicated and messy world, we have not practiced or developed the skills to care for each other and that is what we

need

now more than ever. Have you ever given up on someone?
simon sinek the advice young people need to hear e176
I'm afraid I haven't expressed this openly. Generation Z is the least resilient generation. They are very good at presenting a confidence that they do not have. This

young

er generation seems less able to deal with it. stress than previous generations, that's true, when you go from one relationship to another, from one job to another, from one job to another, there is no stigma for quitting smoking, five years down the road and what is going to happen is that an employer will see them as if they can't stand it. the risk that everything we are talking about today comes down to those human skills that we lack, how to listen, how to give and receive feedback, how to have a difficult conversation and what we have to face more than anything is fear, fear of which is the underlying reason why we don't have honest conversations, let me give you a little honesty, so what is the biggest fear you have about how you are currently living your life?
simon sinek the advice young people need to hear e176

More Interesting Facts About,

simon sinek the advice young people need to hear e176...

I was too hesitant to admit that I was crying, do you know how we were? It was difficult to talk about it without further ado I'm Stephen Bartlett and this is the diary of a CEO I hope no one is listening but if so please keep this to yourself Simon it's good to see you again yeah it's good to be here. I have to thank you first and foremost and for many reasons you know I'm a huge fan of all your work, but the conversation we had when we were in Los Angeles was received so incredibly well by the listeners of this podcast that it reached millions. and millions and millions of downloads in such a short time that I had to argue for you to come back when you're here in the UK, so it's good to be back and it's good to do it on your own turf.
simon sinek the advice young people need to hear e176
Yes, literally in my house, literally in your house. There are so many things I want to talk to you about, but one of the things I was curious about because I've been thinking about this a lot in my life is this idea of ​​our whys. evolving what is your why and it has evolved over the last decade uh so my why is to inspire

people

to do the things that inspire them so that together each of us can change our world for the better and that is why I wake up every morning every day is the greatest compliment someone can give me when they tell me it was inspiring or you were inspiring that's how it feeds me you know um and the interesting thing about Hawaii is because it's not objective a and it's the sum total of The way we were raised is born of the patterns and lessons we learned from our parents, from our teachers when we were

young

, and our why is fully formed when we are in our mid to late teens and you only have one wife.
simon sinek the advice young people need to hear e176
For the rest of your life it doesn't change whether you are who you are based on how you were raised now you may not be acting like your true self you know

people

tell us that all the time you know it's like I don't I don't know who you are anymore, You know this, but when you are at your natural best you are wise front and center, but we don't always act at our natural best and sometimes we make decisions out of selfishness, we shake ourselves up, we take the job that pays us to the one who offers us the most money. and rejects the one who works for someone who would probably be a better mentor.
You know we do these things all the time, so you know, can you change the words of your why, of course you know, but? that's semantics, can we find better ways to bring a why to life? Yes, that's evolution, but the why itself is fixed when you talk about why being influenced by the things that happened in our life, our experiences, our upbringing, does that mean? our trauma can influence our wife for better or worse always for the better always for the better yeah a why is always positive um uh and I'll give you a real life example of why someone found out what I did and you know one of the things to do when I make someone's discovery, I asked them about happy experiences when they were children and this person said I didn't have a very happy childhood, I had a very bad childhood and I said, okay, so tell me, tell me a bad memory.
So you know, she talked about a lot of abuse in the home and a very abusive alcoholic father who beat her mother and the children and told a story of a repeated pattern of when the father was drunk and came to get the children. that she would be hiding in the closet protecting her brother with her arms around him to protect her brother and she tells this whole story and at the end I pointed out to her that she is a protector that in these traumatic experiences it was her instinct to protect her little brother and she's lived her life if you look at all the moments where she's really thrived and where she's her best self, she's usually in a position of protecting other people and that's where she finds joy in caring for other people and so the experiences shape us into who we are and the effects, you know, the impact will be positive no matter where it comes from, so yes, I'm talking about a horrible childhood that turned her into a wonderful person.
Being human, I was going to use myself as an example to try to refute that a little bit, but I remember having a very similar conversation with a very good friend of mine a week ago upstairs, who talked to me about her childhood. this too publicly, so I'm not going to let the cat out of the bag, but her father used to hit her mother very, very severely and she was telling me literally a few days ago above that she has her memories of trying to put up with. on her father's arm while swinging for her mother when she was five and when you look at the pattern of what those early experiences have caused and some other experiences that she's obsessed with helping others and, you know, building these incredible businesses. she is incredibly successful, she is terribly successful at a very very young age, however forcing her to help others has meant that she sometimes commits to helping herself and everyone I know in my life, she is the most successful woman I know, but she is also the woman who is very successful in all personal aspects, relationships, boyfriend, uh, mental health, all these things, so when we say you know, I understand the positive side of this, but the Negative side seems to be amazing, I guess why she has that.
Honestly, it's not worth it to me because this is not someone who would say she is happy, this is someone who is in therapy and every day cries and is upset while she serves the world in an incredible way. it's that it's positive it's that it's positive why then the problem is why you know that one and it's basically what we give to the world is the value that we have in other people's lives her friends would say about her that she is our protector um You know, uh, that's the role we play in their lives and that's why they love us because we're brothers, we're giving them our why is our value, the hardest thing to understand is what we give to the world is also what we

need

most, it's always balanced, so I would say you know she's not that she can't take care of herself, but she needs to find friends, colleagues, whoever that is. we're committed to taking care of it and that's where the change happens and you know we were talking about this, you know before the program started, you know there's a whole section of the bookstore called self-help and there's no section in the bookstore called helping the others and I think what we need is the help of this industry.
I'll tell you something. Something that happened to me. A friend of mine was going through a rough patch in her life. Her marriage was struggling. Her career was struggling. I was unhappy like none of the boxes were checked, you know, and she knows what I do, I mean, we've been friends forever and she asked me a favor, can you help me, you know, of course, of course, I said and every week we had a standing 90 minute meeting where she would come and tell me what was going on and I would give her some

advice

and point out some patterns and she would feel fantastic, she would go on a high and she would feel amazing for a few minutes. two days and then it would come back down and she would come back the next week and this would go on for months, two days, three days and then it would come back down again, and then it occurred to me, how I remember it. my own work at leaders eat last I talk about alcoholics anonymous where they have 12 steps to help an alcoholic overcome this illness and alcoholics anonymous knows that if you master 11 of the 12 steps you will probably regress and succumb to the illness but if you can also master the step 12, you are more likely to beat the disease.
Step 12 is helping another alcoholic, it's a service, so I remembered my own work and decided to do a little, decided to change things properly and so on. I told him, look, I love that you come see me every week and I love helping you every week, but you know I struggle with things too and I don't have anyone to talk to. Would you be willing to help me? Maybe we can. I split the time and she said, of course I did, and what started happening is that every week we would meet and I would be honest, I wouldn't pretend, I would vent and tell her what I was going through and what I was struggling with.
In the end we didn't divide time. In the end, she spent 90 minutes talking well about my things and she was the one who gave

advice

and was the one who looked for patterns and left at the top and that at the top Stay until the following week, it was only when we reversed the scenario in which she had the opportunity to care for someone she loved who was able to find the solutions to her own challenges and I firmly believe that we have achieved that. to remember that we are social animals, we need each other and this is the great paradox of being human every moment of every day, we are individuals and members of groups, you know, and there is a debate, do you take care of yourself? first or you take care of others first and there's a whole school of thought that says you have to take care of yourself first because if you're not healthy you can't take care of others and there's a whole school of thought that says No, you have to take care of yourself first. to others so that when you need them, they are there to help you and the answer is that they are both right and they are both wrong.
It is a paradox, it is a struggle and every day. I am faced with sometimes big but often small decisions: do I prioritize myself at the sacrifice of the group or do I prioritize the group at the expense of myself? And you know, people like um uh uh maslov like Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Maslow made a big mistake. In that hierarchy that is his baseline, our basic need is food and shelter. I have never

hear

d of anyone committing suicide because they were hungry. I've

hear

d of people committing suicide because they were lonely, but social relationships in Maya's Hierarchy of Law is number three, but that kind of thing doesn't sound good.
It seems there is something more important to human beings than just food and shelter and then the top of the top is self-actualization, which sounds like the most selfish thing in the world. world like I am so self-realized that I would literally sit on top of a pyramid and look at all of you non-actualized people, because that is my goal, to be self-realized, you are half right about the mistake that Maslov made, it is the only thought of us. As individuals and as individuals, yes, first I need food and shelter, but as a member of a group I need friends and I need love and self-actualization is not what I'm really looking for as a member of a group, but shared actualization. that I'm looking for and unfortunately for various reasons why we don't have to go down that rabbit hole in the last 30 40 years, especially in the West, we've doubled down on our individualism, we've doubled down on my own career, we've doubled down on how do I find love ? how do I find happiness? we have doubled down on selfishness and it worked for a while it worked when the economy was really good like in the 80's, 90's and 2000's, such amazing selfishness was great because it worked but now, in a complicated and messy world where the economy is not great and Not everything is rosy, all that self-interest is not working now except that we have not been practicing and developing the school skills to take care of each other and that is what we need. now more than ever and that's why I don't know your friend and that's why I can't get anything.
I can't draw any conclusion, but we are animals in balance and nature abhors a vacuum, so whenever I hear these things, my question is always about balance, so, for example, every good thing that happens in our lives, everything has a cost, nothing is free, someone with an incredible career has no relationship with their children, true, everything has a cost, but at the same time, everything we struggle with has opportunities and lessons that come with it, it's always okay balanced and, therefore, every time someone tells me something great, I say, yes, but at what cost and if the cost was worth it, sometimesThe answer is yes and sometimes.
The answer is no and when something something horrible happens in someone's life or something goes wrong. I always ask, but what did you learn? You know, I mean my career and yours are the same. You know the whole golden circle and the concept of why it came about when I lost my passion and hated work. I went through depression, I don't ever want to go through that again, but I'm very glad it happened because, look what it is, it's given me a completely new outlook on life and I think about the strengths and weaknesses of it.
Way, you know, I think it's funny when people say what your strengths are and what your weaknesses are. Well it depends, life is balanced and always contextual and everything we have that is a strength has a responsibility and every weakness we have has a strength attached to it. I can imagine it thanks to the books you have. I've written and you know the channels that you have and the content that you produce that a lot of people come to you, on a personal level, friends, family, to help solve some of the problems that they have in their lives.
I find myself in a somewhat similar position maybe they won't come to me maybe I'm going into the problem to try to solve it because that's my nature but do you ever give up on someone on something I've thought about and I'm, I'm reflecting a little bit on my friend here, yeah, and the friends that I've had since my childhood, who, I remember offering to a guy, I said if you could work for a month in the subway where he was working, I'll pay for your rent so you can move out of that city, yeah, and go get a job.
He didn't make the month on the subway, yes, and at one point there is a part of me that says: "You know everyone has a solution." Optimism, the optimist in me and the other part of me leaves, at some point you have to give up on people. So the most important lesson I learned in my career that profoundly changed the course of my life and it comes just before I realize it. and the articulation of why I learned to ask for help and learned to accept it when it was offered. It's okay and I think it's not about giving up on someone, but helping someone is a team sport.
Success is a team sport and if you find out that you are the only player in his life when he should be the main player, you can only be, you can only make the assists, you will never be the one to make the baskets, that is his job. true, but if they don't take the pass, then at some point you stop throwing the ball and um, it's not about giving up on people, it's about what they have, it's about responsibility, taking responsibility for yourself and giving up on someone. is not doing it. Don't ever call me again, don't take my advice, this is over, that's giving up on someone, because I think the other way to do it is to listen, I can't help you if you can't get involved in helping yourself and I'll want to do that. sit with them and I will want to not criticize and say that you are not doing this you have to follow my advice you have to do this you have to go to work on the subway during the week so that is not what I want to sit and understand what the blockage is, There's something else that's the block that I hope I can get to, but at the end of the day I'll tell you point blank, listen, if you're not going to be involved in this, then there's no point in me getting involved, you know you have to like it, This is a team and I'm the only player here so I'll always be here and when you're ready, maybe it's just bad timing, I don't know what else is going on. in your life and maybe this is not the right time or maybe it is not a good fit, but when you are ready I will still be here no matter what, but you have to call me, there is no more, I will no longer be throwing the ball to you. like you have to call me and then they call you and then sometimes you do it sometimes you don't sometimes they do it sometimes they don't in my case they call me and then they say it's time for me to be willing to accept the help and then the same cycle happens over and over again and you go, you go, you know, five years of them calling you, then, then, then, then, then, they're lying, but they don't think they're lying, they always think.
This time it's going to be different. I'll do it on Monday. I mean, like I said, I want to know what else blocking is. When there's that kind of repeating pattern, then there's something else and I think you know. Our mistake in those situations is repeating our pattern which is fine I'm going to give you the same advice I'm going to do the same you're going to do the same I'm going to tell you the same I'm going to give up on you. I'm going to continue like we're actually repeating a pattern as well, so you know, we know as entrepreneurs, and that is you have to try something completely different, um and I.
I think you know this goes back to what we were saying a moment ago, you know who we are, we're not teaching the skills of how to help others and part of one of the most important skills of learning to help others is learning to hear. and most of us are really bad at listening, right, we confuse listening with hearing the words that were said, you know you're sitting there watching TV and you know that someone you love is trying to tell you something and you say, uh-huh uh-huh and you keep looking you're not even listening to me and we turn around and we repeat all the words that he's not listening that he's listening to the words that they said to you listening is when the other person feels heard well and when you look for the meaning, not the word said, you are not so literally right and I think that in the cases of people like your friend, it is a matter of passing on a way of giving advice and men suffer for this more than women, which is our intention It's fixing everything right all we want to do is fix fix fix fix we see the problem here's the solution but sometimes that's not what people need people need to feel seen and heard and understood and maybe just maybe you do too Whatever you do to fix it quickly and he doesn't feel seen or heard or understood yet and in this particular situation and again, I don't know the person, but I would make an extreme listening effort, you know, give the child a chance to empty his cube like and there's only three terms that you're going to use in the conversation go on, tell me more what else because it sounds like whatever you think you're fixing is probably something completely different and until you can get to that, um, you're going to hand them over to someone who maybe, um, it's just that we had the wrong strategy.
It wasn't until these examples came up in my life where I had friends asking me for this type of help that I began to consider it. that maybe the mindset itself is a privilege that if you don't recognize and understand you'll end up giving advice from a very privileged place, you know, I might say, well, just work harder or just yeah, just go for it, yeah, this kind of the Things come up like a misunderstanding that my brain is blessed to think and be a certain way, yes, but I've never heard anyone talk enough about this idea that our way of thinking itself is a privilege and you know that that's interesting that mentality is a privilege, it's true if we think about early childhood education, then yes, maybe you know that some people have monetary privileges from their childhood, something that your parents or your experiences might have given you a privilege real psychological. so let me think out loud for a second, let's try it, let me try it and unravel that you know there are many stories of people who, when the odds were against them, whether they came from extreme poverty or abuse, they They rose to have successful and happy lives. true and when we read about them or talk to them or meet them or listen to interviews with them they talk about mentality they talk about my mother taught you usually the mother like my mother taught me to never be a victim my mother taught me that I was capable of anything and so they had a mentality, you know, some people have a victim mentality and then that's the life they continue to live, some people have a different mentality and that can take them out of what we would do.
He considers non-privileged circumstances to be okay, so you know, it makes me wonder, so mentality is a privilege? And we both know people who have all the privileges given to them. You know every single one of them and yet for some reason their mindset is wrong and they can waste it all. of that opportunity, all those advantages that have been given to them, you know, and they make a mess, so I wonder if the mentality is a privilege, there are many privileges in the mentality of life, I think it is one of the ones that is there.
To take it, I think about that. He was 18 years old. I left college stealing food to feed myself and at that time I was completely convinced that I was going to be a millionaire. What did I do? What did I do? What did I actively do? you are just making your own point that mindset is not a privilege, no I say that because I believe I am privileged that that mindset was given to me by my experiences and maybe my biology. I wonder why in that situation, if you had put me and my best friend that I talked about with the subway example in the same situation, one of us would have suffered a catastrophe and I saw it as a wonderful stepping stone to the point where that I turned around my house. videotaping my office videotaping my terrible situation opening the refrigerator there's nothing in it my first page of my diary on facebook knows which one I saved says I'm keeping this diary because the television production company asked me to I liked my own diary because me and I look back and say this kid was sure, yeah, he was going to get out of here, well, I mean, I also played tricks and games with myself, you know, I mean, I remember, I mean, some of them are funny, but I did the same thing as you.
I know and I said I go back to the concept of why, what is it, it's the experiences we had when we were young that shaped us into who we are, it wasn't just the theft, it was your parents, it was your friends, it was Your teachers like it's a privilege, I mean, at what point everyone has a y and everyone's why is affirmative, you know, and like I told you about the abuse story, you know something really positive and someone really positive came out of that trauma, um, so you. I know I'm struggling to call you, use the word privilege to psych yourself out because what you're saying is anyone who has had any kind of luck or change or has privilege, and anyone who hasn't and has failed is because of their lack of privilege. like there are too many other factors involved in that in those comparisons to to oversimplify it and call it privilege.
I'm sure sometimes there are privileged components involved in that for sure, but you know when we are if we're strictly talking about mindset I think it's uh I'm not sure I don't think so so it's not like that because the control of our minds is what The only thing we possess is the only thing that is not how we can change the way we see ourselves and how we treat others um and I think what's important and it's a difficult conversation, right, I think one thing that's important is that we have to have love in our lives, it's from someone you know, even people who like it I have a friend who came from a very abusive home um, he found his grandmother stabbed to death and the knife was so deep that she he was tied to the bed that bad it was true um and yet he had a coach that believed in him and so I think that having someone believe in us, having a person see a spark in us, helps us recognize that it helps us to see the spark in ourselves, you know, I just think it takes one with just one person, whether it's a friend or a coach or a parent a boss sometimes you know who says who loves us and almost all of us almost all of us can remember to a person in our lives where it's a coach or a teacher who took us under their wing and saw something we didn't see, uh, and every successful person on the planet has that person, but I think most of us have someone that he saw something in us and we are who we are in part because that person has someone. in our lives, um, kind of a link to something you were talking about earlier about trying to be less individualistic in our approach to our lives and our careers, a lot of your work and I was in your video subscription library and a lot of your works have that as a direct line about connection, people and teams and yes, in the context of the remote work world that we live in, I guess my first question would be how do you think this post-covid world has been affected in terms of connection . community teams and that unit that should be at the bottom level of our maslowy and hierarchy of needs, well, I mean, obviously, took a step back, you know, although there is again, I always think of things in terms of balance between what correct and the cost, so it's not like that.
Good or bad, both are right, so let's weigh both, of course, we have freedom of schedules now that we didn't have, we have freedom to live where we want, which we didn't have, we have freedom to choose our children from school or go . to the dentist where we used to have to ask for permission or take time off, we have that freedom now that we didn't have it, we have it for people who are for peoplewho are introverts, like to be able to do their work in the privacy of their own home, you know that remote work has many advantages.
Sharing ideas is much more difficult, like brainstorming, it's actually very difficult to do in a virtual setting because it's very polite, right, you can't interrupt someone as easily as when you have a real brainstorm, it's complicated, it's noisy , you step on each other's words, you interrupt yourself, you have to say no, no and no one cares is the is the disaster is the The joy of doing it in an online setting means that you literally can't hear people if everyone is talking at the same time. time and you're constantly apologizing and it's your turn and you don't have that wonderful energy, so I think brainstorming has suffered, um and then the most obvious one, which is for a lot of people and I think if it affected the younger ones dramatically more , but for all of us you know that when you finish work you go out with your friends to eat something. to eat or in the pub and you from work and you from your boss totally healthy and you and you do it with friends that if it is a good job or a bad job it doesn't matter you have a you have a separate place from work, those are your friends , you go and you do everything right, super healthy and you feel supported and loved and hurt and all those good things that completely disappeared and then what ended up happening again and again if you didn't have it? a family, if you lived alone, all of these things become more and more exaggerated, so what ended up happening was, and again, especially to young people, but for a lot of other people we also started to look for the people that we spent the most time with. time.
People now work on Zoom with them all day and sometimes well into the night. We started spending more time with these people, we didn't have anyone to hang out with afterwards, so we started looking to work on being as therapeutic. Outlet, so what a lot of people have done is, first of all, gossip starts to spin a lot more because now we are venting and complaining to each other instead of our friends, especially if someone is young or susceptible, gossipers can take off a lot. faster, which is very dangerous for a culture, but what I've seen is that we find an empathetic person and a good listener on the team and we call him and talk about our work, we talk about our boss, but then he keeps saying that I don't know what I didn't do what I don't want to do with my life you know I hate my boyfriend I hate my girlfriend I don't know if I should break up and suddenly you're dumping all the problems in your life on someone at work who happens to be a good listener and What we are doing is increasing that person's stress, so we suffer from it in our company.
I have heard it from many. other companies, who are those people, those empaths who are quitting and if you ask them why you're quitting, they go because I'm burned out and you're looking at their workload and you say I don't understand how you burned out. They're exhausted from taking on all the stress of others because they're empathetic, everyone else's stress becomes their stress, right, that's the problem with this, which is, and it's a good thing that someone like Covetez is willing to date our friends and having that safe space to vent about work is really important, so from a cultural point of view it's very difficult to control because I can't interrupt it, I can't tell them they can't, you know they don't want to go. to your boss to talk about those things, but what else, particularly young people, but others too, but particularly young people, are recognized that there are limits at work and, when leaving a person, they must assume all their responsibilities . problems and they listen and listen and listen and listen and sometimes they give bad advice but they listen and listen we are doing that other person a disservice to make us feel better for a few minutes.
It's one of the first times in my life that I started thinking about cultural design again and it's funny because I ran a covered business position for seven years, we had almost a thousand people, then I left it in the middle of covid and I'm launching businesses. then covert and it seems like not all the rules apply and a lot of that is down to comparison now so a modern employee compares the work culture they are seeing on tick tock right and linkedin to their own and it's almost as employer, we are competing with a false ticking narrative on social media that is um and people never really know what they really want, I think it relates to the culture, even I, so if you ask someone what they want from your work culture, would you? meeting your fundamental needs probably not, yes, so my question to you is: how are you doing on a practical level?
What changes have you practically made or do you think are necessary in a post-cover world that you might not have stated in a pre-cover world? world, if there is one, let me get out of it, let me address it from a little bit, so if you go back a bunch of years, our lives look very different than they do now, obviously, we have our sense of purpose of the church, we have our sense. from the community of you know, any bowling league where we would go out with our neighbors, they would come and have barbecues with us on the weekends and work was a place we went to make money to pay for our lives, pay our bills. and it was also a In a different time when we were super loyal to the company and the company was super loyal to us, right, and that was life and then church attendance started to decline.
Bowling leagues are basically gone, gone, we don't go to community centers. We don't have our neighbors on the weekends anymore, so we have our sense, so we started looking for all those things to replace them, so now we say, "Work, you have to give me a sense of purpose." to give me my social life you have to give me a sense of community and belonging um and now we've added things to that list since the coverage was and you have to agree with all my policies and by the way you also have to be my therapy Now, you have to be my place for therapy, which is what we were talking about and it's an impossible standard to impose in any culture that they can do all those things for you, the way we've set it. impossible standards for romantic partners who have to be my intellectual equals have to be my have to be sexually compatible with me have to be emotionally compatible with me have to share all my interests all my politics you know we have to vote for it anyway as if these were standards impossible to impose on another human being and we are literally setting people up to fail, we are setting up business cultures to fail, just as literally no culture can measure up. that standard and then in the quest for the grass to always be greener, you have people who go from relationship to relationship to worse relationship, from job to job to job to job and when I was younger, you know if you didn't like your job. or if you didn't like your boss, the bad news was that you had to stay there for a year because if you left in less than a year it would hurt your resume, they would ask you why you left in less than a year, you know? and now young people again, particularly young people, there's no um, there's no stigma to quitting and sometimes it happens too quickly, like you avoid confrontation, and I've seen it happen.
Avoid confrontation I'm too afraid to ask my boss for a raise so I just quit I've seen it okay or I've been here for four months I don't like the culture I quit okay or I had problems at work I hate my boss I quit and that's why people are giving up so much my fear my fear like I don't care if something is super toxic get out of there most places are not super toxic imperfect yes, but toxicity is like there's a standard, you know, and It's a high bar and um uh or this doesn't fit with my values ​​or this doesn't agree with my politics, I'll leave it.
My fear is that if we fast forward five years there will be a disproportionately high number of people who will have eight jobs in five years and what is going to happen is an employer is going to look at them as if they can't take the risk of you staying. I'm not going to hire you. You sound like an amazing candidate, but you're too high a risk for me. and because he's had so many jobs in such a short period of time, he hasn't really stuck around long enough to develop a skill set or know what it's like to ride a storm because he's stuck around for the good times. and you bailed out the bad times and then you've been in the workforce for five years but you don't have five years of work experience, you have four months of work experience and then I don't want you either because you haven't ever been through a battle, you know?
And I and I see what happens. A young man who has been with a company for eight months. He goes to his boss and tells her: I want to increase. I want a significant raise because. I'm doing the same job as those people. Those people have been in the workforce for 10 years. I know, but I'm doing the same job as them and I'm doing a good job. It's true. You are doing the same job as them. They are doing a good job, the difference is that I don't pay them just because they have been in the workforce for 10 years.
I pay them because you know how to raise a mainsail in calm waters and you can raise a mainsail in calm waters. waters as well as they can raise a mainsail and calm waters the difference is that they also know how to raise a mainsail in a storm I don't know if you can always make a mainsail in a storm I pay them more because I know that if we run into difficult times . I know they know what to do and I can trust that we can sail and I also know that they will teach you how to raise a mainsail in a storm.
It's like the same reason I buy insurance. I do not do it. I hope my house burns down, but I pay just in case I pay them more for a skill set I hope they never have to use. That's why they get more. You know, one of my fears right now is perfectly related to what you're saying is that I'm afraid and I've never expressed it openly, so this is the first time, so don't all come for me at once. I'm afraid Gen Z will be the least resilient generation I've ever met. never seen and a lot of that, and this sounds so stupid and not based on evidence, but if you look at what ticking is telling this generation it's work and there was a video that went viral on Twitter the other day in Silicon Valley where it's shown as an employer from Facebook, one of the big tech companies, comes to work in the morning, grabs a latte, all these free muffins, checks out and grabs the free muffin, samples it in a tick tac, literally doing like 30 seconds of work and then she's outside doing a pottery class, that work that I gave her, she comes back to the desk, she doesn't have 30 seconds of work, then she goes to a work social gathering and I reflect on the storms my father went through at work and I know so deep inside me that there is no way some of these people from the younger generation could weather such a storm without quitting. z When I hire people who belong to that generation, I almost need to go the extra mile just to check that they can cope with a high-intensity culture where demands can come on a Saturday because the world doesn't stop. on Saturdays and Sundays, so I wanted to get your opinion on that, so let's look at both sides, think again about what the balance is and what the costs are.
It's a generation that was already starting to ask these questions, but The Coveted forced the rest of us to ask these questions too, what is the definition of work, like what does a full-time job mean and these are unanswered questions, so that I don't have an answer about what the future of work is. because right now everything is changing and things haven't landed well yet, so what is the definition of a full-time job? If I don't come to work, the definition used to be: I arrive at eight or nine. and I left at five or six, that was the full-time job.
How much work did I do between those hours? You know it was face time and we know it because we've all had jobs where we stayed until seven, so we had facetimes, our bus likes us, we've all done well, but facetime doesn't exist anymore, so I have a job full time and they offered me another full time job, I accepted it and we saw We see this as employees who like to have productivity problems and then they say they are exhausted and like I know how much work you have, you shouldn't be exhausted, how They have a second job and why shouldn't they? a second job, well, we pay them benefits, so as long as they do their job, do we care? when everyone has side jobs, even people who have full time come to work, everyone has some kind of side job, so the definition of what full time employment is is up for debate and I think young people feel in particular that why shouldn't I?
It's my time, I can do whatever I want with it or I just work 40 hours because that's what it is. Those are my limits, respect my limits, right, um and uh, the problem is that I think everything is so literal, which is, yeah,Boundaries are important, but the edges of boundaries are blurry, right? and it's not that I don't work on Saturdays. Well, I agree with you. I don't want you to work weekends this weekend. I really need your help to finish this project so we can get it out the door or you know, I don't accept meetings after five.
I agree with you I think we should have that balance in life but today I just need you to work until six to finish this project and recognize that you know so one of the things they are doing right is we are married to work and we take our phones on vacation, you know, we take our computers on vacation with us and that job has the final say on our time. I agree that we should do it, we should go the way of the dodo, but the extreme thing is not to put these hard lines everywhere and say I don't do this as an aside, the irony is that you know that they demand that we respect their limits and without However, they seem to cross all other boundaries to provide emotional professionalism at work and leave all my problems to my colleagues, which is emotionally unprofessional, it's like it's a boundary. you can't cross um uh but there's good evidence for your claim that this young generation seems less able to deal with stress than previous generations that's true um they're good at healing you know they've grown up on an instagram facebook you I know the world of Tik Tok where I'm very good at showing you the life that I want you to think I lead and that's why they are very good at presenting a confidence that they don't have.
They sound like they have all the answers when they don't, but then I see you presenting that to me live if you're a fellow Gen Zer, yeah, and I go, what are my? My life is stressful and difficult and I had to work very late and you are having a frappucci lotus latte whatever yes at 3 am taking pottery lessons I need to quit yes the question arises what do you want from your life and what do you want from your job, for example, why do you have this job? You know, if it's just to pay the bills, I mean, I hope we've known that that's the case for a lot of people, that I have to have a job to pay the bills and I hope that employers are good enough to even Survival jobs are a good place to work, you know? uh uh, the big Trader Joe's company, where people who have survival jobs are still a good place to work, you know, but I think the question is what is the life that you're trying to build and do you want a job just to pay your bills. and you know there is this concept of silently quitting smoking, have you heard this one of silently quitting smoking?
I heard it this time, but maybe I heard you talk about it, well, I mean, it's been written about, right? um, it's not my concept, um, but quit smoking quietly. it's this thing where I don't quit the job, but basically I will reduce my effort and give you the minimum so you can pay me to do this job and I will do the basic minimum amount to do the job where you can't. I really get fired because I'm not really doing anything bad or wrong, but I'm also not going to go above and beyond, so there's this concept of silent resignation where people come to work and just do the bare minimum to do their thing. hours doing your job without volunteering or raising your hand or going and that's it and the question arises is how bad is it you know and I and I'm a big believer that it's all about expectation management, you know, like me They ask about Amazon, I like it a lot, I don't agree with how Amazon has been run and my answer is always the same: they never lied, they didn't tell you that it's a magical place to work where everything is kumbaya and we all like it, you know, we all like it. we hang out. with unicorns every day it's really amazing, they're very lively, they're very open about it, it's very, very aggressive, very rude and very competitive, and even the people who love it only last two years because they burn out, etc. because they don't lie, you know what you will get if you go to work there and if you like that kind of culture then go work there, if you don't like that kind of culture then don't work there, but don't take the job and then Say you didn't know because you liked Apple.
You know, people say that Steve Jobs used to demand a lot of people from him, but if you ask the people who loved working there, they will tell you that yes, it was difficult. and there was a lot of pressure, but I did the best job of my life and I'm glad I worked there because I would never have been able to work to that standard if I hadn't worked at Apple in the past. The important thing is that companies are honest about the types of cultures they have, right, it's the lie, it's the way everything emerges and is seen, no culture is perfect, even the good ones have problems and even the bad ones have advantages, true, but I think it's about managing expectations and I think it's okay for someone to say about themselves: look, I'm not a careerist.
I am okay with the fact that I will never be an owner or senior manager. I want to be paid fairly. I want to have a decent performance. work um, but I want work to fit perfectly into my life and not overwhelm me and I'm going to look for a job where that's possible and I don't think we're at the point where we have complete honesty on both sides. still I hope we can get to the point because there is still stigma because older generations like you and I are looking if someone told us I just want to work 40 hours, I'm willing to push my boundaries from time to time, but really this is just what we would say Well, you're not working here you know, so it hasn't become normalized yet, yeah, but I think it's just a matter of being honest with yourself and you can change your mind too.
I've decided that I want to drive a little harder and I want to have more ambition than I thought, or less, but I think it's just about honesty, um, and this, this point of view is as true in personal relationships as they are. in our professional relationships, so I had a conversation with someone recently and I found it absolutely fascinating and she's polyamorous, she has four boyfriends and she's very open about it and one of the things she explains is You have to be very honest with everyone so that everyone know what the deal is. You know, we're thinking.
I think what a lot of people do is they're dating someone, it's new, it's casual, and they're dating someone else who's doing something casual. but they don't talk to you about each other so you either think you're more special than you are or you both head towards something that may or may not be true because you know you're dating two or three people and we have to wait and see. which works in the poly world. What I'm learning is that you tell everyone everything so everyone knows and it's very open and honest. Everyone knows where they stand.
Can you tell I don't like this? I want to be the soul or I'm okay with this and maybe something will develop maybe it won't, but the point is it's on the table and I admire the level of communication. What I hope is that we do the same. in our professional life, so you have a kind of poly work, if you know, I have two full-time jobs, you know, I have three things going or I just want this type of relationship and it works if both parties are really open and honest because it's all about about managing expectations wait I thought you were going to give me all your attention and all your effort and all your ambition and you're telling me you just want to work you want to treat my job like a casual job like just replacing the relationship with work all the rules seem to apply Same rules, but if I had known you would be okay with it, I would have given you a different job and had different expectations, I wouldn't have put too much pressure on you, I would have done it.
I've given that job to someone else because I assume you want to live your career the way I live my career the way I assume I'm entering this relationship and you're entering it for the same reasons I am, because we've never had a conversation, we're not not even close to that in terms of social acceptance for that kind of conversation, but I aspire to someone sitting down and saying that part of their resume and part of their interview says: do you know what kind of work-life balance? ? Do you aspire and how do you see the job, even if you change your mind and then like expectations are managed, then what's the problem?
You've answered one of the number one questions I wanted to ask you today because when I read your book, The Infinite Game, one of the biggest things that changed in my life was I remember I was on a plane and I read the book and I started writing some things. I went back to our UK office and gave a big presentation to all my teams. about how we create a sustainable company because if what you know, what you're talking about in the book is true, then, and we're not playing a finite game here, how do we redesign the business from the ground up so that it's fundamentally sustainable.
Yes, I came up with this thing called www.workwelfare and world, which are the three reasons why we exist. We made goals for 2020, so this was in 2019. 20 goals before 2020 for each of these areas and me. I'm thinking about it a lot now, which is like if I had to design my business in a way where my team members would stay working here forever, how would I do that? You just responded by making the point about honesty, yes, expectations. So sit them down and tell them what you want from your life because I've never asked you that.
Yes, I am as you correctly identified. I guess they want exactly what I want. Honestly, I wrote it here as a question. Ask him how I get my employees to stay forever. So why not be a dictator? It sounds horrible, but I get it, yeah, but why should I want to create a place that, if people want to stay, is a nice place? place where they can make a career and grow within the organization, and for some people who don't have leadership aspirations, they can come and do a good job every day and get fair raises, you know, on a regular basis so they know with the cost of living adjustments, etc., that they want to stay there even if it's mid-level, because not everyone aspires to be a hard driver, you know, owner, you know, and I think it's about making it a conversation.
We never treat work as a conversation, you know, we treat it as a speech, that's how it will be and I think one of the good things that is coming out of greed and young people is that they are them. We're asking questions about why work has to be this way and employers are rebelling against it because it doesn't fit the way we grew up and it doesn't fit our understanding of relationships, you know, and it's just a conversation, That's all it is and if you're honest from the beginning, then you can say that I don't think this is going to be a good fit for us.
I don't think you'll enjoy working here, so if I employ you knowing what I know now, we'll both get frustrated and I'll ask you to leave or you'll just tell me you're leaving, that's how this will end, you know, because of misaligned expectations, like this. I think being honest about what you want, who you are and what your ambitions are even if they change in the middle you can knock on the door and say I've changed my mind I think I want to stay here forever I told you no but I really love it here you know and I know this from the military you know some people join the military because it's a stable job in a bad economy or because the military will pay for your college education and they didn't have the money to get it without it so they join the army. and then when they fell in love with it, they never came to the service, they discovered the service, the brotherhood and the sisters and decided to stay, you know, and some people may have come to the service and realized that this is not for me.
So the work should be the same, but I think there needs to be an honest conversation and, like I said, I've had debates even with my partners, my coworkers, you know, you know, when they say, well, if we're . paying them a full salary and giving them benefits, they should not have another job and my question is why not, as long as our work product is not affected as a result, if they call you on the phone to miss all meetings, then yes, absolutely . True, we are paying for a certain expectation of performance, but not necessarily for when they do it, so why shouldn't they have two jobs?
But I think again there has to be honesty, meaning we have the expectation that x and if someone says I don't want to meet that expectation because I want to have two jobs and you can adjust the salary that way, you can be fine, so how about If we pay you less and you can have all the freedom you need? I want and again it's a conversation we don't do these things conversations we do them in a way they come and by the way that's from the employee to the employer I also demand x you know someone asked me recently how do I know I want to ask my boss for a raise, how do I do it ? and I said the problem the way most people ask for a raise is like I want a 20 raise.
I did my research and my work, the average salary at my job, you know, is x that my friend gets. paidx my friend gets paid you have no choice but to say yes or no, it's true, and even if it is, I can help you get it, but that's how it will be, you will have to have certain goals, it still seems like a right no because the request was binary, so The advice I gave this person was to stop thinking about your job as an event and think of your job as a career, think of your job as a continuum and go to your boss in the middle of this continuum. um, I've worked here for two and a half years.
I've been here through good times and bad. You know I'm loyal and my aspiration is to stay here and grow with the organization um uh can you help me find a path that will get me to this salary? It's not a yes or no now, it's absolutely possible, I can give it to you today, yes. there's no path necessary or I absolutely can, we're going to set some goals that I want you to achieve and if you can achieve them, then you will work towards that salary, but again, it's about giving, allowing conversation and allowing someone to recognize that you You see your own career in the organization as a continuity of I've been here and I want to continue being here, so can you invest in me?
Can you bet on me instead of meeting my demands? So I think a lot of these things fail because they're poorly presented. Amen, and this applies once again to this younger generation who seem to lack the skills to deal with stress. They are not very good at asking for help. They are very confrontational avoiders. like I said, sometimes I'm too afraid to have the question and ask the boss if I can get a raise that they would rather just give up and often it's with an email that says: you don't appreciate me, you don't pay me enough.
I was like what. you just had to ask me, I would have given you a raise, you know, um, uh, and I think part of that too is you know when someone is anxious about something, it presents it in the wrong way, it makes things binary because there's fear, anxiety. or stress. or fear of rejection, what if my boss says there is no right? Can I handle that like all these things that come in these kind of aggressive binary things and I always equate all these challenges at work with personal relationships that you can't go to?
You're the person that you love in your relationship and you're like, I demand this, it's just not going to go well, but you present a situation, you're like, I want us to get through this and how do we get through this together, and I think that's how they get difficult. work conversations need to happen, a job, a work relationship, it's a relationship like any other relationship, you know, there's trust, there's anger, there's caring, there's good days and bad days and anyway, nonsense, a mess. In our personal relationships it is at work. You also know that there are slightly different standards of professionalism and emotional professionals and things like that, but in terms of it's a relationship like any other relationship, you have to treat it like a relationship and actually read relationship books if you want to fix things.
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It seems like we weren't with just one partner, we're with multiple partners, now we've lived in the society where we are in Arizona, we were told to be with just one partner, um, it's natural, it's human, it works, the statistics seem to suggest that It's not really working that well, I mean, if I bought a TV and 50 and they said to me, by the way, there are 50 of these that are going to break, yeah, I wouldn't buy the TV, right? Maybe, you know, I'd rent one. right, it's funny, uh, esther perel, which is wonderful if you don't know her work, uh, you know, she talks about the changing definition of monogamy.
Monogamous used to mean I'm in a relationship for my entire life. Now monogamy means I'm in a relationship. at some point, even that definition has changed where monogamy and people who consider themselves strictly monogamous have 15 monogamous relationships over the course of ten how many garments have I had six close relationships, you know, they were all monogamous, so these definitions are evolving anyway right, that's number one, number two, I like that we are having conversations about the health of relationships as if we were having conversations about the health of work and these things have always existed, the difference now is that the stigma of talking about them seems to have dissipated at least in the United States, where I live, it's surprising how many people talk about open marriages, open relationships, polyamorous relationships, consensual monogamy, as if they don't even know what all the differences of all of these are. words, if I'm honest. like there are so many words that seem to mean similar things, I don't understand the nuances, but the point is that it's surprising to me how many people bring up the question of what a healthy relationship is and I think one of the things for me, that comes down to what we're talking about, which is the basis, is based on both parties and both parties have a say, so if you say I want to live this type of lifestyle and you're sincere about it and someone says I'm fine with that, then great, but if you lie and say I want to have this kind of I want to be strictly monogamous, but you don't actually do it because you really like the person and you think that.
If you tell them you want a different type of relationship, you will lose them like we did, it's the relationship, the conversations we have are largely born out of fear, you know, if I tell her what I really want, she won't do it. like me and then I won't go on another date, that's true, it's a possibility, but if I tell him exactly who I am and what I want and he likes me for who I am, then it's not better and I think it's the same thing we're talking about work , so I don't think it's right for us to say that we should be strictly anything because some people want one type of relationship.
Let me rephrase that both people in that relationship want that type of relationship. relationship and both people in the other type of relationship want that type of relationship, so we just have to respect that we have different views on what brings happiness, as long as you are happy, kind and consensual. I think we're done and usually the problems arise when someone makes most of these decisions, most of these problems are born from fear, fear of losing, insecurity in a relationship, jealousy, for example, this is The other thing, that friend, was telling you about who's super. open and honest about her life I was talking to her the other day and she says I'm jealous, she says I'm jealous and I'm trying to figure out where it comes from and what I found so fascinating.
In this regard, she treated jealousy as a feeling of happiness, sadness, anger, where in most traditional monogamous relationships, jealousy is usually an accusation, right, I saw you look at the barista that way, right, and jealousy They are generally born from fear and hyperprotection, you know, the possessive is born. out of fear, fear of losing, and what I found so fascinating was that she didn't blame her partner for her feelings of jealousy, she wanted to understand where her feelings of jealousy were coming from, it was a feeling, um, and not an accusation, etc. I think the same thing is where we are in all of this, whether we are talking about work or personal relationships, everything we are talking about today speaks directly to those human skills that we are missing and I hate the term soft skills, hard skills. and soft skills that we talk about, hard and soft, they are opposites, right, they are hard skills and human skills, these are the hard skills that you need to learn to do your job and these are the human skills that you need to learn to be a better being. human. we are very good at teaching hard skills we are bad at teaching human skills and human skills include things like how to listen how to have a difficult conversation how to give and receive feedback how to have an effective confrontation these are skills that most people are missing that we saw after the murder by george floyd the number of leaders who after george floyd was killed did nothing, did not say anything to their teams, not because they are bad people, it is because they were not taught how to have a difficult conversation, etc.
They were so afraid that again there is the fear of saying something bad that would accidentally offend someone or aggravate the situation that they didn't choose anything and I think the same thing happens in our relationships, we make too many decisions out of fear now as business owners we understand the risk. Well, we understand risk well and that with great reward comes great risk. With a small reward comes a small risk. Without risk, you leave it in someone else's hands and get over the fact that if I tell someone who I really am, they might not like it.
I, well, don't you want to find out sooner rather than later? Because they will find out that they will. The truth always reveals itself sometimes quickly, sometimes slowly. The truth always reveals itself eventually, but think of the magic of being able to do so. say the kind of job you want to have and the kind of life you want to live and the kind of relationship you want to have at the risk of them not hiring you or not going on a second or third date with you, but think about the opportunity if you take that risk .
I'm thinking about all the people listening to this right now who are in a relationship, been there for 15 years, have become loveless, maybe not having sex anymore, yeah, and Now you're driving down the highway listening to us talk and they think I really want to have sex with someone else and if I go home and tell Jane or John whoever, I don't want to be gender specific, then I just want to have sex with someone else and I also want to keep them around, they're going to leave. , so I can't be honest, Simon, can I? So once again, it's like asking for a raise, right?
If you do it binary, you're giving, you're backing someone into a corner, I realize our marriage is loveless, so I want to start seeing other people and you can too, you know, and what you're doing is you're doing a binary, you're forcing someone into a binary. yes or no, which is unfair to someone and you are setting yourself up to probably fail, instead of saying I love you, you are my life partner, you are my best friend, I never want to lose you at the same time. The relationship is loveless and I'm struggling because I crave love and I crave that kind of affection and we don't have it so I'm struggling and I don't know what to do and I want to know how you feel and I.
I want, we can work on this together, so you're doing it, it's like the rise, it's like, let's do this now, if you hate the marriage and you get out of the marriage, you know, if you've tried therapy and it's broken. so that's a different conversation, but if there is a desire to stay in the loving relationship in some way but you are looking to fill a missing place, then that is a conversation but it is not a demand or a request, it is difficult. Honey, I need to have an awkward, difficult conversation and we may not resolve it today, but I want us to promise that we will get through each other, we will get through this together so we can figure it out together.
It may take us a day. Take us a week, it might take us six months, but I'm going to be here the whole time and I want to go through this with you because I'm struggling in this relationship. Someone else has a right to know that their partner is struggling in the relationship. and most likely if only one person is struggling, there is no scenario, we are just one person struggling, it's like when we have a problem with an employee, if we really can't, they hate their job too, like it's not a surprise, you know? and I'd like to start the conversation like listen, I'm fighting with you, I know you hate being here because it can't be one way, right, that doesn't exist.
I'm pretty sure that most of the problems I've had in my life stem from the fact that I didn't have an honest conversation before. So did I, of course, and I made the mistake in my life of not doing it and it was well-intentioned. I didn't want to hurt his feelings. I didn't want to offend themupset them, so I dealt with the difficult thing in my head and tried to find the solution that I thought best met my needs and yours because I wanted to, but if I told you. This would burden you with the stress of having to figure this out, so I'll figure it out and then make the decision that I think is best.
It failed every time because the mistake I made was treating the relationship. as an individual when it is not, it is two people and the problem with a relationship with two people is that I do not have full control of the relationship remember that I am a member of a group I am a member of a tribe I am a member of a team I do not have the total control of everything and I have to give up some control and what we have to deal with more than anything is fear, fear is the underlying reason why we don't have honest conversations that's why we are hyper aggressive or do things binary it's because we fear rejection we fear loss we fear whatever it is and it is and we can ask someone to reassure us and we can deal with the fear first and by saying I'm going to stay here and an employer or a lover can say: I promise you that I will also I'll stick this stick through this.
I will not abandon you, we will get through it together, which reduces the fear. Notch, right, that, we'll do this together and in my own relationships, you know, coveted, all the bad that came with coveting again, you know how I see the world, I see that the world is balanced, there are bad things, there are good things and bad in everything, everything good. from the struggle and the bad that happened in Covet there was tremendous good too um and in my own life um I had the opportunity like many of us to stop getting off the hamster wheel and then look back and say do you want to get?
Back to the hamster wheel, you know, or look at all my relationships, like why they weren't working out, where is my responsibility in this? You know what I was doing wrong and I realized that one of the things I had to do was I had to No, I had to be a better listener, so you know my girlfriend, you know? And when we started dating, she's a terrible, terrible listener, right, I mean, we joked about it, uh, where I'd be like, baby, I need to have an awkward conversation with you. It's something I'm struggling with, something you said or did that makes me uncomfortable.
I need to work it out with you and she would start telling me a problem she had with me, so what she would do is just leave room for that. the conversation would just change completely, you know, but I had to learn what I learned about listening is this holding space to learn to hold space for someone you know to learn to do it like they're holding a baby that you know you'd like to let. someone feel safe. telling you what they have to say without you trying to fix something or disagree with something or correct something, go on, tell me more what else was the most valuable thing I learned in Covid and the cool thing is when you give that to someone in a strange way. they, by some strange osmosis, gain the ability to give it back to you because you've done it, if you do it enough times you can say this is what came next, i.e.
I hear what you're saying and I want to talk about it. that, but for now I want to finish what I started talking about, can you just start with that and can you say it politely and they recognize that you have reserved space for them so many times that they will offer you that? service and they know how to do it because they have seen it modeled. The really interesting thing is that I was thinking about my own relationships with my partner and the reason why that is so true for me is because most of the time when someone is talking and talking and repeating themselves because they don't feel like they have been heard properly, so in my relationship with my partner, the fact that we do exactly what you described, where we literally go, gives me a safe space and then Talking means that she only feels like she has to say it once because she feels like it was heard the first time. time in my previous relationship.
I remember being honest. One day I was in the closet and I locked myself in. There, my girlfriend is banging on the door repeating herself and I'm not proud of this, but it's the truth. In a long context, I said I'm going for New Year's Eve, it means a client is going to Singapore, it's her birthday. She's the biggest client in the world, they asked me to go, it's her birthday, she's going, I want to spend New Year's Eve with you and I'm going, yes, but I told them I'm going to Singapore, she's going, I want to spend New Year's Eve with you, yes, and that was oh no and at one point she was yelling at me so I like to go and hide in the closet, yeah she spends the whole night hanging on the damn door like she's repeating the same thing over and over again. over and over again in my new relationship we communicate with more context and actually listen when the other person speaks, so it only needs to be said once, yes, and then she can speak and then I listen, I repeat it to her and then I speak .
So what are the same things? So, this was 10 years ago. By the way, I'm not getting caught up in more. So, you know, what I learned about being in a relationship, I used to come home and do the same thing. Things like uh hey honey, you know I have something on Friday with a client, right? or I'll give you an even simpler one um um the Joneses uh they invited us to dinner on Friday I know you're free on Friday so I so I said yes so we'll go find another Jones on Friday and all hell ensues you know , and I thought, but I know you're, I know we don't have plans, you know, and now what I've learned is when the Joneses call. and you tell me you want to come to dinner if I go, oh my gosh, I'd love to let me check it out and I come home and I'm like, hey, the Joneses invited us to dinner on Friday, but I want to check with you first, oh my gosh.
I loved it, great, I'll call them and confirm and do it again instead of me having good intentions making all the decisions even though I know exactly what it will be. Yes, I know the answer will be. I know yes, what I'm doing is including the other person in the relationship, that's all, making someone feel seen, heard and included, and like I said, there are so many great lessons we can learn from our personal relationships that we can apply . at work because, again, it's an easy way to understand how I see how I approach all of these things.
I see it all as human beings interacting with human beings. That's it and all the anxieties and fears and egos and it all applies everywhere. What is the most? difficult conversation that you've had to have with someone um when we talk about that honesty and communicating as authentically and openly as possible as soon as possible, what are those difficult conversations that you've had to have or a conversation that you had maybe as well? Later on and you thought I wish I had had this conversation sooner, I mean, they're no different from anyone else, I mean, as you know, talking about George Floyd with my team, talking about George Floyd with my black friends, it was very difficult. um and I made mistakes, you know, like I remember with one of my friends, one of my black friends, he was crying, you know, while we were talking about it and I said why don't you cry and he said because it's new to you.
It's not new to me, he says I'm exhausted. I'm glad you're having your experience, but it's not my experience that you're seeing this for the first time. I've seen this my whole life, you know, it was difficult, you know, being told that, it's true too, but my conversations are the same, I mean the difficult conversations, you know, it's about honesty and relationship. but honestly, with him, you know, with someone on a team, you know if something's not working or if you give someone really harsh feedback, someone you're very close with, that doesn't mean you let them go, but it's really difficult. feedback you need to give someone and learn to deliver it with love learn to be fact you know one of the mistakes I would always make you know this you know all these theories about giving someone the compliment sandwich tell them something good tell them something you want to tell them tell them something well it doesn't work because it's generic something good really specific something bad and generic something good you know seven good things one bad thing generic generic generic really specific so it doesn't work in my opinion it doesn't work like you if it's really it's like you know it really me I like that you come to work with a smile and there's something else I need to talk about, you know, but what I've learned is when I deliver good news, be very emotional and when I deliver bad news, remove the emotion and therefore, like bad news at work, especially you know, when we sit down over time, someone says, um, ah, so no, I don't want to dwell on this, um, you.
I've been with us for a long time. Uh, I need it. This is very difficult. I need to give you some difficult comments. I'm pouring all the emotion into this. But to be dispassionate is like, hey, I need to give you something. difficult news, I need to have a very frank conversation with you about something that's happening at work and it's going to be very difficult for you to hear, but I need to tell you, boom, this is where people appreciate it when we are. just be honest with them and you know, not infuse all the extra emotion um, but you know, yeah, I think the same, I think the same thing is true in all relationships.
I've always found that I have a hard time using the word employees and you simply. You went to use the word then and changed it to team yeah it's something that's also why I use it every time I'm on the podcast I talk about it but my team will never listen to me and if they may not listen to me have realized this, but this has been the same for 10 for about 10 years. I will never call them in a group chat and call people who work in my company employees, yes it seems to be a violation of my values ​​in some way. and I just realized you went to say the word team, someone on my team, that's what you did, yeah, I mean, I do the same thing, I mean, when I show up in a group called my team k and, yeah , then you know an employee for me.
It's a technical word, you know, yes, I don't mind talking about employees when we talk about generic things about the company. I don't mind referring to employees when I talk about insurance, you know? or benefits, you know, it's like it's a technical term that I think is okay to use in technical times, but when I mean people and those people have names and faces, then they are the team. Do you know this about Andrew Tate? this and you take that the guy has been in a lot of headlines, you know it's probably a good thing, you don't know, he's been in it, it's this guy who dated this kind of professional, you know, pseudo strange, strange male type .
I'm getting closer to his basic thesis, I guess he's saying that men, young men and men in general are missing something in their lives that the modern world hasn't given them. Jordan Peterson has alluded to similar things. Jordan Peterson has been on this podcast several times. thinking about the gender differences in our needs in the world, there are a lot of people on YouTube in the self-help space who say that men have these unmet needs because the world is becoming more equal and they lack common sense. of purpose and men are meant to be, I don't know tribal leaders and all that kind of stuff and when you look at the suicide rates in our country, the leading cause of death of men under 40 is themselves, It's suicide and so I've been, I've been reflecting on this, it's, there are gender differences in your opinion, these are all very difficult topics, I understand that, but, in your opinion, men in particular have certain needs that are not met. due to a changing world. has unmet needs due to a changing world fact there are gender differences of course there are gender differences and how we respond to men versus how we respond to women is different a friend of mine who was um she was she three things happened to her simultaneously in in In the military three things happened to her simultaneously, any one of them would be difficult, but all three happened to her at the same time, she was promoted to senior management, she became a lieutenant colonel, she was deployed for 13 months, 12 months and she was given her first command okay, so any of those things are a test and all three of them happened at once, and she took a job where the previous five leaders had been fired.
It was a poorly managed group. She would be working with people. from different forces, so she is in the air force, she would have the air force and the army reporting to her, some of whom were much older than her and much more experienced than her and she is a passionate young officer who drives hard and who said I am I'm going to change this group and I'm going to show everyone that I can change it. I have been practicing leadership. I have been studying leadership. I want to be a great leader and I was a failure as were the people.
They weren't ignoring her, they weren't taking her seriously and no matter how hard she pushed it, it didn't work and every night she started she would cry herself to sleep and start to regret being in the military. All she wanted to do was go home, she didn't want to be stuck in deployment anymore, what was really exciting now became a regret and she didn't know what to do, she was failing, which was hard for her to deal with alone, I want that is, as it was and so. She decided to give up and said, "I won't change this group, soIf I'm going to fail at my job, then I might as well do it and I'll be stuck here for another six months, just like everyone else." I'm going to change my mandate and instead of turning this group around, I'm just going to make sure that the rest of their time here really enjoy it.
I'm going to make it more fun for them to come to work every day because they were also away from their families and stuck and then something strange really started happening. They started listening to her, they took her seriously , they began to respect her more and she ended up having a very high performance in the end and the group completely changed because along the way she made it about herself and she made it about the metrics and she did it. About acting, the lesson she learned was that if she you do about people, then people will take care of everything else and I remember sitting down with her a week or two after she came back and she's telling me this whole story for the first time.
Once, you know, after she He came back and started crying and when he told me Jesus, I have never felt such deep joy as seeing someone discover that they are capable of more than they thought, which is very different from who I am. I'm going to turn this around, so when she told me this, she said one of the big lessons she learned is that female leadership exists and she had a conversation with one of the soldiers in the army and asked him why she didn't do it. Listen to me like why was it so hard? why do we fight? and he said blank because when an officer yells at me, sure, I take it, I listen to it, I move on, right, okay, when you yelled at me, I felt like my mother.
He was yelling at me and it was harder, you know, so there are gender differences in the way we respond to each other because it's a mom and dad thing, right, we respond differently um and um and men sometimes don't. They always are, but men are sometimes better at just having another guy tell you point blank just do this and you'll do it, but when you create gender, it creates all kinds of interpretations and associations like our mothers, so I think we cannot rule them out and you already know the traditional qualities of male leadership. It's things like decisiveness, aggression, you know, that kind of thing, traditional feminine qualities, um, it's things like patience, you know, maternal instinct, uh, empathy and I think the mistake that we've made in everything leadership is that we teach masculine leadership, we teach decisiveness and we teach aggression and These are the things that we teach, we teach them to everyone and the reality is that what makes great leaders is that they have a balance and what we should teach is more female leadership and all leaders must embrace the qualities of patience and empathy.
You know, this is the irony, um and so, I think we need to teach those skills, I mean, this goes back to what we were saying before, these are those human skills, you know, women get my job much faster. that men when I started my career, you know women just weren't and they say, yeah, yeah, what would you do, of course, and it would be men, what are your case studies and what case studies do you have to show that You are your model, you know, men. they would fight me on some of the details and women just inherently and intuitively understood that the humanity of the work that I was preaching just made sense and there's room for that, so yeah, I think female leadership and those qualities are just necessary everywhere, but Yes, there are differences and they cannot be ruled out.
It's difficult to talk about them. No? It feels like a minefield. Even when I talk about gender differences, I feel like I'm stepping on a mind somewhere because you're completely different. right and my previous company was CEO was a woman and I think the business was more successful because of those qualities that you suggested empathy care patience um she was much more honest about the forecasts yeah and how the business was going to perform against a male leader, I mean, this is such a limited example, so it's not necessarily true, but we had a male CEO who was extremely over the top and very, very, very ambitious in terms of forecasting that we never realized, that makes sense, that's consistent and I.
I think you know there's a lot of data on this. You know the men. You know when they apply for a job and they say we need these ten things and if they have six of the ten, they apply for the job and women won't apply for it. job unless they have nine or ten of the qualities that you know, men are a little bit, you know, I've seen it happen in meetings where you know there's a male entrepreneur and like the client says, you know we'd love to have this. I would love to have this and they have it and the guy says we can totally do it, yeah, you know, and they'll sell it, they'll sell it right there and then they'll figure it out later, yeah, and I've sat in meetings. with a businesswoman who has almost that like they're very close and I and you know someone is saying we'd love this, I'm like, do you have that they're like no, we haven't tried it yet.
Like you have it, tell them you have it, they say what is it, no, it's not perfect yet, you know, so, yeah, I mean, some of that is cultural too. I have an entrepreneur friend who has a theory and I must emphasize that this is her exactly correct theory. She believes that men are better entrepreneurs than women. She believes that men are better entrepreneurs than women. Okay, yes, and the logic is that when we are young, traditional roles for the most part still exist. that if you want to go to the prom usually the boy asks the girl, right, I think it's softening, but the traditional roles are still there, which means that from an early age children learn to steel themselves, They take risks and get rejected and then they have to do it again and then they have to do it again well, so we move into adulthood and men learning that skill of asking, of taking a risk, dealing with rejection, being rejected and then trying again makes them resilient entrepreneurs, where to do it again. assuming traditional roles are played, you know, if a woman who hasn't learned the skill of rejecting risk is more afraid of risk as an adult, now we could argue that with online dating you know that by swiping left and To the right everyone is losing the ability.
You know, we could argue that no one has to take risks because you just swipe right, you don't know they swipe left, they think maybe they just didn't see you, so you just get the oe that logged in, but no one ever . is rejected, so we're building that goes back to the original conversation of a young generation being less able to deal with stress than older generations, so there's less opportunity to risk being rejected, we have to go back to try well and the things we learn when we are children. Social interactions, they, they, become skills when they're adults, so you know, it's a softening of a generation, shouldn't we ask them both?
To learn both, I have to learn to take risks instead of taking risk away from everyone. I don't know, no, you know, what I will say is that I've had two very successful businesswomen on this podcast that I've said the same phrase, which is that as women in the workplace we typically don't ask for raises as much as our current parts. and that backs up what you're saying there, that men at some point have learned to just ask. for the things that they want, whether it's a raise, whether it's a job, whatever, you know, but I think you know, the theory that my friend brought up is that it doesn't come from our dating experiences when we're younger and we develop these skill sets that benefit us later in life as entrepreneurs.
Generally, it's not risk, reward, it's risk, rejection, risk, rejection every time I talk to someone who does a lot of interviews and conversations and talks a lot online. I always try to think of questions that I would ask them that they've never been asked before and one day I remember it was actually after you left when we were in the studio in Los Angeles. I thought to myself if I was going to interview. For me, it would probably be the most interesting interview in the world because I know everything and I know all the things that no one has asked me and that I might have walked away from or whatever if you were sitting in my chair and We were interviewing Simon today What does it mean?
What are some of the questions you would have asked yourself to get the most interesting things out of you? Maybe just give me a question. I think you've done a pretty good job. I mean, I think the best interviews are conversations. I think the best interviews have no agenda, but the interviewer has genuine curiosity. I think the best interviews are open questions that are difficult and in this case from your interviews you know that you are quite direct with a question that does not leave much room for maneuver, you know, there are many questions that I can solve and yours less, but they give me the opportunity to think out loud, you know, I think a lot of the questions you asked today I have.
I haven't thought about it or, if I have, I haven't coded it and what you heard weren't answers, but you listened to me thinking you know, and if you go back and listen to them, they're probably kind of bouncing around a little bit because you're listening to me. trying to get to an answer aren't answers I'm trying to get to an answer and those to me are the best ones because I walk away feeling enlightened because I have to think where Usually the answers to questions are: I've heard them all before. They are very focused on my work.
When you wrote this, when you wrote that, you know what you were thinking and I don't learn anything, so when you ask me about my job. I know the answers when you ask me, not about my job, you asked me about life and you asked me about the challenges the world faces, that's what I love, so you know I think you've done it and that's why the questions I ask myself . These are the questions you asked me, okay, I'm going to ask you the question, I'm not copying you, it's no different, really, you're very good at what you do, I'm going to ask you the question that I would ask myself, okay, what? which is it?
The oldest was thinking about it so what is the biggest fear you have about how you are currently living your life? What is the biggest fear I have about how I am currently living my life? that I'm not 100% honest with myself because I'm not honest with myself, I won't be honest with others, you know, and when someone asks me a question, I'm afraid of the answer, not because I'm afraid of offending them, but because I'm afraid to offend them. I'm afraid of how I feel about the answer, you know, I think that would be it. Do you have a suspicion that you are not being completely honest with yourself?
I think we all have the ability to rationalize it. It's one of the great things about being a human being, we can rationalize anything, you know, I can make any decision, the right decision, you know, and I can convince someone of it too, you know, this is definitely the right decision, um, and I think it's just that instinct so deep inside me to be truly honest, even if the answer is I don't know, or I'm afraid, or I'm not sure, or I want this and I feel like I shouldn't want it, do you have that? A suspicion that you are not being honest with yourself in a certain area of ​​your life Do you have a suspicion that I am not being honest with myself?
I don't think it's a suspicion I think so I think it's confirmed I don't think so I think I suspect it I think I think I think I, like every human being, has elements of doubt and security, of course, you know it and I can convince myself of any stuff. You have doubts in certain areas, of course, that is. It's none of your business, but that's a good enough phone, so yeah, those are those are my those are those are my that's like no, I'm pretty open, but there are things that I want to figure out myself. resolve with myself before I can share them because if I share them it has to benefit others, yes, and you have to have done it, I guess I have to work because and I'm happy to share things that are in my life, yes I think that conversation, even If it's not resolved, does it have a benefit for others, maybe it does, maybe it doesn't, I find that really interesting.
You know, since I do this podcast where my line is what I won't share and there are things that I won't share, yes, I feel like maybe I'm fooling myself, maybe there are a lot of things that I don't show or I turn them to look better . People like to be a hero, you know, I mean like or like. I think we live in a world where we've confused vulnerability with properly conveying our feelings and watching a podcast or, worse yet, sitting in your room with your phone in sight and broadcasting your breakup or your anger or whatever in the tick tock or whatever. your medium of choice is that you know it's not vulnerability, even if you're crying, to have the exact same conversation with those same words with someone you love and see how hard that is, that's vulnerability and just the idea of ​​conveying everything that I have.
I think it's you, you know? Put up pictures of me when I was a baby and my dad hugging me and happy Father's Day dad, I love you.My dad is not on Instagram. That I am? Why don't I call my dad and tell him happy Father's Day? I love you. Instead of like, I think it's funny that our need to convey everything and we think that's vulnerability and it's not conveying our emotions, which are different, so I think you know those conversations that you're struggling to have and you like the ones that I am the ones that I will not share, it is not that I will not share them with anyone, it is that I will not share them with you because I like you, but we are not, you are not my soulmate, you are not the person I trust.
I will absolutely share those deep things that I'm struggling with, but I will share it with someone who can hold space for me with love, not with the desire to make a good podcast. You know, it's almost. an old fashioned perspective, you know, the mistake people will make is not sharing them with anyone and when I say it's none of your business doesn't mean it's no one's business. I absolutely share those things because it wouldn't be healthy not to, but I want to help. I want to share those things in a really safe, really safe, magical space with someone who loves me no matter what and kisses me no matter what and who will be by my side. no matter how interesting it is, no one has responded like that before, which I think is amazing in itself because it's really changed my perspective on some things, as you know we have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest makes a question for the next guest.
Yeah, they have no idea who they're making it for. I wonder. I'd love to know how someone answered my question the last time we were able to look it up. I'll tell you. Yes, often. a slightly interesting one because it seems like it's something we've discussed in many ways. What is a conversation? What's a conversation you haven't had that you know you need and why haven't you had it? Are you willing to have it? Yes. I will not share the answer and yes, I will because you would rather have it with the person. I would rather have her with the person like me.
I like to convey it now before I talk to the person. unfair and false and I think you know it's like when there is respect, you know it's like when you hear something, you know that there was a tragedy and people died and they don't reveal the names before telling the families. they tell the families first then they reveal the names just out of respect and I think the same goes for these types of conversations, I mean I think we owe it to the people in our lives that we love and care about to allow them to be the first in Listen to what needs to be said rather than the second or last thing.
I think that's how I want to be treated too. I'd like to be the first to hear it if anyone has anything to tell me. respect, so yes, there are things and they will be said. I completely agree and enjoy it. It really fits very well with your previous point about having a conversation as soon as possible, an honest conversation as soon as possible, but also I guess the adjacent point. that's having it with them first, yeah, making sure they don't find out through rumors or podcasts, can I, can I, yeah, 100 and I've heard stories of people hearing things on TV, you know, yeah, and people who lose? their jobs found out through someone else stuff like that um uh can I share a funny story about being honest before closing?
It happens in the moment and this is a lesson I learned well, so I went to see a friend of mine's play and it was easily the worst thing I've ever seen in my entire life, I mean, if she wasn't in it, I would have walked out, It was horrible and at the end of the performance I stayed with my close friends and family in the lobby and she finally came out still dressed and made up and she knows I'm an honest broker. so after the thanks for coming, the first question was: what do you think now?
I am an honest person, but she is full of adrenaline, she is full of emotions, now is not the time, but the problem is that I can't lie to you. You know we do it all we lie all the time to protect other people's feelings you know they give you a gift it's the ugliest sweater you've ever seen in your life and they say what do you think you're saying? oh my god, I love it, thank you. You don't love him, so don't say you love him to protect them, but you don't have to be honest in the moment, so what I said was, "Oh my god, I'm so proud of you." It's amazing to be here and watch you do your thing.
I've never sat in the audience and seen you do your thing before. It was a great joy to see you on stage. All of that was true and so it was done the next day, when everyone's adrenaline had subsided and there was no more emotion, I called her and said, can I tell you what I thought of the play? she goes, yeah and then I told her point by point why she sucked, but we had a rational conversation. the next day and I think we make this mistake all the time in our relationships: we think we have to be honest in the moment, but we don't read the room and understand that there are too many emotions involved to have a rational conversation.
I know someone is mad at us and we are good, this is not the time for rational feedback, you find emotion with emotion, you find rational with rational, you can't mix the two and sometimes we are rational but they are emotional, so That means we have to give up, so what I've learned about honesty is that we have to be honest, but in reality we can delay. You have to find the rational with the rational and the emotional with the emotional. Let me give you a little bit of honesty and then um, I went, I went, I went to your video. subscription library I love it I'm a member now you'll see my name on the back um I looked at the live courses coming up watch a ton of videos awesome it feels like it's too cheap to be honest because the amount of value there is in around all the things that are fundamental to my life, my businesses, my relationships, everything I feel is a little cheap, it's like a couple of cups of coffee, yes, for a month and I can binge on all your content all the videos and you have all these other instructors on it, yeah, who are teaching the lesson, it feels very cheap, that's not the only thing I thought, I thought, oh, I don't know if this is this.
The best thing is the name, continue, the word subscription to me is a bad thing, give me another name, uh, Simon unit, Simon Sinek university, Simon library, any of these things would have done me a lot more, so I was thinking in the name and I was thinking about the video. video subscription video from the library yeah, that's not really why I'm here subscription isn't, isn't it cool yeah, so I was thinking this would change it, but no, that's right, I mean, I have it, but no. I have an emotional connection. to anything and the reason why it is something technical and we call it something technical.
I watched your last episode and you talked about honesty in it and I was thinking this is so much better than it looks, yeah you got it and I have to say it. This is because people have to check it out, basically, you've distilled your books into practical courses, there are live classes, all your content is there, yes, everything you've done, it seems like I'm ripping you off for being a member. That is so cute. I really believe that if I stayed there my life would be better. If I stay for one hour a day, my life will be like this.
Basically, we will change the name, which will make people feel even more valuable and then because of this. conversation we're going to charge people more, should you really, I mean, I haven't been, you know, I've had this conversation before with people, I mean, I know that our broad discovery course, I know that there are people who We offer all kinds of purpose-seeking courses that charge $1,500 for, you know this, and I know this because I've been told our course is a thousand times better than a lot of things on the market, and yet we charge like I do.
I don't know, I guess I can't remember the prices, it's like it's 20 dollars for a month, but I mean, but if you take the discovery course, it's like 85 dollars, 125, I don't remember, but it's low and the reason is that I think I have a responsibility to allow everyone who wants to know their why to learn their why and not those who can pay fifteen hundred dollars and you know, the way we tried to price that product was what would be a little expensive. for a college student, a fucking college student, you know, you have 150,000 in debt, so that's a fraction of what you have, so that's my point, which is like 1500 is exclusive and I'd rather try to make up for it in volume because I want more people. to know his why, then you know, it's too low.
I mean, it's a test right now, you just know we just released it, so it's full of bugs, so you know, I'm sure one of the mental things was like, you know, probably. We shouldn't like it, we should probably make it easier for people to get familiar with this, just a little buggy. I appreciate the comments. But it's important to me to keep the prices relatively low because it's more important to me that people learn things than not knowing the price. well, I want it to be cheaper for my own selfish needs right, it was actually the name I thought of, didn't it do me any favors? okay, I'm going to be Simon Library or Simon University.
I'm done, yeah, I don't have any emotional attachment. so we'll make that change thank you so much for the comments everything is penciled exactly thank you thank you for coming back

simon

honestly it's huge it's a choice and I learned so much from these conversations I really wish I could do it I need to reread this episode with my own notes so I can change my business and my life for the better. Thank you very much, it's a pleasure, I learn as much or more than you, so I really appreciate you inviting me. It's amazing, we'll do it again at some point.
I hope so. Thank you. I had a few words to say about one of my sponsors on this podcast. My girlfriend came up yesterday when she was showering me and she told me that she had tried the heel. protein shake that's in my fridge over there and she said it's incredibly low in calories, you get 20 odd grams of protein, you get 26 vitamins and minerals and it's nutritionally complete in the protein space, there's a lot of stuff but it's hard to find something that is good especially when consumed with just water, it is nutritionally complete and has about 100 calories in total while giving you 20 grams of protein if you haven't tried the healing protein product try the salted caramel one If you wish. put some ice cubes in it, put it in a blender and try it.
It's as good as almost any smoothie on the market, just mixed with water. It's been a game changer for me because I'm trying to reduce my calorie intake and I'm trying to be a little healthier with my diet, so this is where heel fits into my life. Thanks Hill for making a product I really like. Salted caramel is my favorite. I have the banana one here, that is. the one my girlfriend likes but for me salted caramel is the oh

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