Brexit put Britain in crisis - and politicians aren’t talking about it

I'm still quite surprised that the only word that hasn't been mentioned much during this election is the word Brexit. I think it was the greatest act of national harm that this country has probably committed in a century. Well, in a minute. I'm going to speak to Conservative peer Lord Stuart Rose, but first let's hear from Times radio senior political correspondent Patrick Maguire, who joins me in the studio now, um, Patrick, it's been a fun old day on the campaign trail , It is not like this? there is a key story emerging but this story about the betting scandal is not going away, it really is not Kathy and I think the most significant thing the Prime Minister has said today on that front is that when asked if he could guarantee that no cabinet minister had placed a bet on the election date, he did not deny that we now know from Conservative campaign headquarters that a small number of people who have been identified as having placed bets on the election know about the official close protection of the rich cat, we know about Laura Saunders and Craig Williams, the Conservative candidates, and we know about Tony Lee, the party's campaigns director, and his husband, Miss Saunders, but we still don't know if any Frontline politician has made those betting that Richi Sunak hasn't ruled it out.

Their hair stood on end, I mean, it's kind of a beggar's belief, isn't it? You had the launch in the rain, you had the dead day fiasco and now you have this betting scandal. I mean, it's a bluff, isn't it? and the risk of the betting scandal is that it's a kind of Redux party gate in the sense that it pushes the same buttons that people feel about politics, in fact, politics as a whole, not just not just for the conservative party, but it is a particular risk for the party's party. The feeling that

politicians

are getting rich off the information they get in the public service is really damaging to Rishi Sun, especially given his reluctance to distance himself from the mistakes of his predecessors who attacked Li Truss last night. on the BBC debate stage, but he had to be dragged out and this scandal is not going away, in fact it could get worse.

It will soon make Richi's task of differentiating himself much more difficult than in the Labor campaign because the sentiment seems to be understood to be that many Conservatives are throwing in the towel, so does that make it easier for Labor to establish what they could do in government? in just two weeks? Yes, it is, although you won't get much complacency or indeed upcoming statements from Labor about their tax plans or anything else, but really the lack of pressure from the Conservative campaign just means that K Starma is very happy to get through every day without making a colossal mistake.

He didn't do that in the debate. scenario yesterday, even if his decision to say that Jeremy Corbin would have been a better prime minister than Boris Johnson raised eyebrows in his office. I think the Labor Party is quite happy to try to stay out of this for as long as possible. Patrick Maguire Thank you very much for joining us and Patrick's column in today's Times is very interesting reading as always. Now, which party is best for business as we approach the general election? Yesterday, Chancellor Jeremy Hunt and his Labor counterpart Rachel Reeves were here at this very moment.

Reeves insisted Labor is the pro-business party, while Hunt insisted the difference between him and his rival comes down to taxes. Well now let's talk to the former chief executive of Marks and Spencer, current chairman of Asda Conservative Pier Lord Stuart Rose good afternoon Stuart Kathy good afternoon well I was wondering what your opinion would be first on the business issue because you know Rishi Sunak and his chancellor have certainly stabilized ships inflation has gone down, but the economy remains stagnant and so does Rachel. Does Reeves' vision of some sort of growth agenda convince you? I think what we need is anyone's vision of a growth agenda, Kathy, but if I could back up a little bit, for me, this is the most important election since 1979 since Maggie Thatcher arrived.

I came to power when country C was facing some of the same problems we face today, so I can only reiterate, first of all, how important it is for people to get out and vote. Don't sit on your butts, no. Don't sit there with your arms crossed and say it's someone else's problem, go and vote, question the two serious parties, that is, the parties that are going to be in power, whether it's the Labor Party or the Conservative, and say who you think is actually going to deliver and when you've made that decision then vote accordingly, does that imply you're skeptical that unions will deliver on their growth plan?

No, I'm not skeptical, but I'm curious to know because it's still 13 or 14 days away. since Election Day and you can obviously see why, but they've been pretty spar in the kind of information they've provided about what we can expect. Now you ask what companies want. Companies, above all, want a clear lead. They want stability. we know where it's going to be in the next two three four five years because we need investment and investment will drive growth so if we can get that clarity of purpose from the parties about knowing where we're going, but particularly on things like taxes and I'm not just

talking

about By personal taxes, I mean corporate taxes and I mean some kind of relief and benefit that we will get by making the right investment decisions.

Are you impressed by what you heard from Rachel Reeves about her kind of idea? of a partnership between the private sector that invites that investment that you talk about, um in partnership with the public sector and the government, as well as a businessman who has been in business for a long time. I'm rather embarrassed to say that I've been in business for 53 years and I'm still in it. In fact, business has been held in very low regard since the financial

crisis

, if you remember, bankers were demonized after bankers were demonized. Business was demonized and we haven't really seen any real progress together between

politicians

and business since then, I mean, and unfortunately, you know, some of the early comments made by the Conservative party were not helpful.

I'm glad to see Johnson, Boris Johnson, talk about business, right? He did too. It's polite to use that right, but I'm glad he used it before me, but I mean, do you think they haven't recovered from that? That was kind of the point of no return in some ways for business. Well, that's how it was. a low point uh and listen, we have to put things in perspective and we have to look back before we look forward. I mean, I'll say this and I know I'm still pretty surprised that the one word that wasn't mentioned. A big part of this election is the word Brexit, you know?

I think it was the greatest act of national harm that this country has probably committed in a century. Well, no one wants to talk about it. The workers don't want to talk about it because they don't want to. to upset potential voters, the Conservatives don't want to talk about it because they did it, but at the end of the day, that has caused us real problems, unfortunately, and this is an unfortunate consequence. You know, God laughs when man makes plans or when businesses, when politicians. make plans, we had covid and then we had this terrible

crisis

with the economy, so I have to say that it has been very difficult, but I think we could have all worked together to make things better than they are today, so both parties are in a difficult situation because, how do you achieve growth?

You have to get growth through investment, how do you invest, you have to spend money and you can't spend money because you are limited by the balance sheet in the UK, as we have seen several conservative donors and supporters are coming unstuck and backing workers. um, since you were

talking

about Brexit, workers talk about wanting a closer relationship with our biggest trading partner on our doorstep, Europe, um, that's enough to convince you that you might or might not cross the room. Well I secretly believe they want it but of course they are too afraid to say it and for the love of God let's wake up to the fact that our economy has not moved forward the way we thought it could for some strange reasons.

I understand that, but we should get closer to our closest business partner and I think it's a mistake not to come clean and say that we can get to a point where we are a little closer in a different way. Go back a minute and I was putting this up for Patrick just a second ago you had the bold Sunak standing on the steps of Downing Street in the pouring rain launching this campaign, then he came home early after D-Day and there was a huge row about it, now There's this betting scandal if the conservative party you support were a company, what would you say as the former chief executive of the board and shareholders about the kind of performance you've seen in recent weeks?

Well if three quarters of the people who have been politicians in the last 10 years had done what they have done as directors of limited companies they would be up in the air they could even be prosecuted we wouldn't be in our jobs they would fire rishy sunak for having ran the campaign he ran no, poor old rishy suak I've never met him. I think he's actually a very decent man. I think he has the most horrible act to do. He has inherited a terrible, terrible, terrible bag full of stuff. And I think he's a decent man trying to do something. decent job, well, if it's enough and if people will be lenient enough with him, I don't know, but I actually feel sorry for him, some of his predecessors I can't say the same, but I mean, does he have what he do you need to be a politician?

He may be a decent man, but you know? Do you feel politics the way you need to? Well, you have to ask the question the other way around. Are you inspired by what the alternative is? What is your? Well, it's me, I must say he was. I was a little surprised last night to learn that K Starma's defense of Corbin or not so much, but he didn't actually repudiate it and then started saying well, Boris Johnson was worse than Corin could have been, why not ? Say look, I made a mistake, I made a mistake, I supported the wrong man, I made a mistake, let's move on.

I have this problem with politicians who can't actually say he was wrong. I misjudged him. Now at least you have to say about Sunak. he said he was wrong about Normandy, that was an unfortunate and fortunate thing, he shouldn't have done it, but he said he was sorry, he said yes, you are right about the signs in the NHS that have gone up before they went away. Again, he said that he hadn't done other things well, so let's be a little honest now. I'm just telling the public that when I say please vote, think, look and ask yourself, now you have to move on. the next five years, and in fact it's going to be a very important five years, you can't vote as a peer, but if you were, it seems like you'd still begrudgingly back the Conservatives, whatever it is, listen, I'm a Conservative, I believe in the conservative value.

I am a centrist. I actually don't think I don't like some of the right-wing tendencies the party is showing now. I don't like the opportunity that voting for reform might present for some people. Although I do believe in the free market. I believe in low taxes. I think people should be rewarded for their hard work. I believe people should have the right to be able to live their lives. I'm a little upset. That's probably a good word to use about the fact that for some reason, because I'm a certain age and I'm still working, I'm not considered a working person because the implication is that I'm a working person and I have a little leather on my shoes. .

They're going to charge me higher taxes, but why not say so? Okay, well, you talked there about the type of person you know, the word you used I think was centrist, but what does it matter? Do you think the next Conservative leader? People are already fighting for leadership. How important is it that that person is a compassionate conservative of a nation? Words you have used recently. I think it's vitally important, but I'm not hopeful that it will emerge anytime soon if the Conservatives don't do it. win this election and then they go to another leadership listen, we have had five leaders who would have been in five years KY said, does she impress you or two from the right?

Well, she said she in the newspaper this morning in an article. I read that there isn't much. left on her whether she meant left or left I'm not sure, but if it's either way you're not convinced well, I know, I'm afraid I don't feel on the right of the party I'm in. I'm not a member of the party, but I don't feel over there. I am a very compassionate conservative. I hope it's a phrase that's not too old-fashioned. I think that's what conservatives have advocated for a long time. I think that iswhat the British public believed.

So if Nigel Farage ended up as leader of the party, you wouldn't be able to sit on the Conservative benches any longer, so I'd leave the country, fine, but if it's someone on the right, less so than Nigel Farage, you'll try to rebuild it and make it work well. Listen. I am not a fully paid-up supporter of the Conservative Party. You know, if you look, I've had a hard time supporting some of the policies that the party has put forward over the last two years. It's been hard for me to accept, but at the end of the day I'm still not past the point of no return, well, finally at that point, so um, Jim Ratliffe, who is the chemicals magnate, who was at that time in the CEO Summit yesterday, he said it was time for a change, saying that Sir Kama was not a date, a simple and decent man, do you agree with that sentiment?

I honestly can't answer the question because I don't know, I've never met K Starma, but I'm a little skeptical. about what Jim ractive might say because he was a fully paid bre te, okay Lord Stuart Rose, thank you very much for coming on the show, it's always a pleasure to hear from you.