Elon Musk: War, AI, Aliens, Politics, Physics, Video Games, and Humanity | Lex Fridman Podcast #400

The following is a conversation with Elon Musk for the fourth time on this Lex Friedman

podcast

. I thought you were going to finish it, it's one of the most important themes in all of film history, yeah, that's cool, so I was thinking of the Roman Empire as one. Is there that whole meme where everyone thinks about the Roman Empire at least once a day and half the population is confused about whether it's true or not, but they think more seriously about the wars happening in the world today and, as you know, war? and military conquest has been a big part of Roman society and culture and I think it's been a big part of most empires and dynasties throughout human history, so yeah, they usually came as a result of the conquest.

I mean, there are some like the Austra-Hungarian. Empire where there were a lot of intelligent marriages, um, but fundamentally there is an engine of conquest and they celebrate excellence in war, many of the leaders were excellent generals, yeah, that kind of thing, such a broad question that Grock approved. I asked, this is good. question to do tested grock approved uh at least in fun mode uh uh to what extent do you think war is part of human nature versus a consequence of how human societies are structured? I asked this because you have somewhat been an advocate for peace in a controversial way.

I'm generally a supporter of peace, I mean, ignorance is maybe, in my opinion, the real enemy that needs to be countered, that's the really hard part, you don't know, fighting other humans, um, but all creatures fight , I mean, the jungle is like you look at people. I think of this nature as maybe kind of a peaceful thing, but it's not really, there's a pretty funny thing where he's in the jungle and he says it's basically murder and death in every direction, I mean the floors. Animals in the jungle are constantly trying to kill each other every day, every minute, so it's not like, you know, we're unusual in that way.

Well, there is a relevant question here: whether greater intelligence leads to greater control over these basic instincts. violence yes, we have much more capacity to control our limpid instinct of violence than, for example, a chimpanzee and, in fact, if one looks at, say, the society of chimpanzees, it is not friendly, I mean, the bonovas are an exception , but chimpanzee society is full. with violence and frankly it's pretty horrible that this is the Olympic system in action, like you don't want to be on the wrong side of a chimpanzee, eat your face and rip your balls off, yeah basically there are no limits or ethics or, uh, the Romans said just war, there is no just war in chimpanzee societies, it is war and domination by any means necessary, yes, chimpanzee society is a primitive version of human society, um, they are not lovers of peace, basically, um, not at all, um, there is. extreme violence um and then every once in a while someone who's seen too many Disney movies decides to raise a chimpanzee as a pet um and then it eats its face off or if it's crazy or it rips off its fingers and that kind of thing.

Yes, it has happened several times. Ripping off your balls is an interesting strategy for interaction. Some people have had it happen. It's unfortunate. I guess it's a way to ensure the other fool doesn't like it. You contribute well to the gene pool. From a martial arts perspective, it's a fascinating strategy. I wonder which martial arts teaches that. I think it's safe to say that if someone has your nuts in your head and, as an option, rub the wolf, you'll be willing to do whatever he wants. Yes, as I said in some controversial way, you have been a peace advocate on Twitter in X, yes, so let me ask you about the war that is happening today and see what the path to peace could be, how do you expect The current war in Israel and Gaza comes to an end.

What path do you see that can minimize long-term human suffering in that part of the world? Well, I think that part of the world is definitely if you look up. There is no easy answer in the dictionary, it will be like the image of the Middle East, especially in Israel, so there is no easy answer, which is strictly my opinion from you is that the goal of Hamas. was to provoke an overreaction from Israel um obviously they didn't expect uh you know to have a military victory um but they expect that they really wanted to commit the worst atrocities they could to provoke the most aggressive response possible from Israel um and then take advantage of that aggressive response to unite the Muslims around the world by the course of Gaza and Palestine, which they have managed to do, so this is counterintuitive here, I think what I think should be done even though it's very difficult uh is that um I I would recommend that Israel engage in the most conspicuous acts of kindness possible whenever it is the goal of in some sense the degree that it makes sense in geo

politics

to turn the other cheek implemented is not exactly turning the other cheek um because I think there is um you know um, I think it's appropriate that Israel finds the Hamas members and you know, you either kill them or you imprison them, um like something has to be done because otherwise they'll keep coming, but other than that they need to do everything they can.

There is talk of establishing, for example, a mobile hospital. I would recommend doing it, just making sure you already know. there's food, water, uh, medical needs, um, and just exaggerate and be very transparent, so people can't say it's a trick like just putting a wave camera on what you know 24/7 weekdays. acts of kindness, yes, conspicuous acts of kindness that with that have an unambiguous meaning, they can't be in some way because they will, then their response will be oh, it's a trick, therefore you have to counter how, how, it's not a trick, this ultimately fights the broader force. of hate in the region, yes, and I'm not sure who said it, it's an apochal saying, but an eye for an eye for an eye makes everyone blind, now in that neck of the woods they really believe in the whole eye for an eye thing eye, um. but Ian, you've really done it, if you're not going to commit genocide against an entire people, which obviously wouldn't be acceptable to anyone, then you're basically going to give up a lot of things. of living people who you later know hate Israel, so really the question is how for every M member you kill, how many did you create? mhm and if you create more than you killed, you have not been successful, that is the real situation. there, um, and it's safe to say that if you know, if you know, if you kill someone's son in Gaza, if you've created at least some Hamas members who will die just to kill an Israeli, that's the situation, but but I want to say that this is one of the most contentious topics that one could discuss, but I think that if the end goal is some kind of long-term piece, one has to look at this from the point of view of time, is there more or less ?

Less terrorists are being created, um, let me stay on war, yeah, well, war, it's safe to say that war always existed and always will exist, always will exist, always has existed and always will exist. I hope not, you think that there will always always be always. Being war, this question of how much war and, um, you know what you know, there is something like the scope and scale of war, but to imagine that there would be no war in the future, I think that would be a very unlikely outcome, Yeah. You talked about the cultural series, there is war even there, yes, this giant War.

The first book begins with a gigantic Galactic War where billions upon billions die, but still protect these flourishing pockets. In some ways, you can have a Galactic war and still have pockets of flourishing, yeah, I mean, I guess if we're ever able to expand to the full galaxy or whatever, there will be a galactic war at some point, ah, the scale, I mean, the scale of the war has been increasing, increasing, increasing, it's like a race. between the scale of suffering and the scale of flourishing yes, many people seem to be using this tragedy to beat the drums of war and fuel the military industrial complex.

Are you worried about this? The people who support climbing and what it can be like. One of the things that worries me is that there are very few people alive today who viscerally understand the horrors of war, at least in the United States. I'm obviously talking about the people on the front lines in Ukraine and Russia who understand how terrible war is, but how many people in the West understand it? You know my grandfather was in World War II. He was severely traumatized. I mean he was there, I think, for almost six years in eastern North Africa and Italy. his friends were killed in front of him and he would have died too except they randomly gave him some IQ tests or something and he scored very high, now he wasn't an officer he was a I think a corporal or a sergeant or something like that um because he didn't finish high school um he had to drop out of high school because his father died and he had to work to support his brothers um so since he didn't graduate from high school he wasn't eligible for the Officer Corps, so you know, they put him in the gunbuster category, basically, but then they randomly gave him this test.

He was transferred to British intelligence in London, that's where he met my grandmother, but, heh heh. he had next level PTSD like next level I mean he just wouldn't talk he just wouldn't talk and if you tried to talk to him he would just tell you to shut up and he won a bunch of medals he never ever bragged about it once, no, no. Even they hinted that I didn't like it at all, I found out because his military records are online, that's how I know, so he was like, “No, no way, you want to do it, you want to do it again, but how many people? " Obviously he died, you know, 20 or more years ago, actually 30 years ago, how many people are alive who remember World War II, not many and the same perhaps applies to the threat of nuclear war?

Yeah, I mean, there are enough nuclear bombs aimed at the United States. States to make the reubel the Revel active radio bounce many times there are two major wars going on right now, so you talked quite a bit about the AGI threat, but now that we're sitting here with the intensity of the conflict going on, are you worried about a nuclear war? I think we should not rule out the possibility of nuclear war. It is a threat to civilization. Right now I could be wrong, but I think the current probability of a nuclear war is quite low.

But there are many nuclear weapons aimed at us. and we have a lot of nukes pointed at other people, they are still there, no one has put away their weapons, the missiles are still in the silos and the leaders don't seem to be the ones with the nukes talking to each other, no. There are wars that are tragic and difficult at the local level and then there are wars that end civilization or have that potential, obviously the Global Theron nuclear war has a high potential to end civilization, perhaps permanently, but certainly, you know, that uh seriously injured and and maybe, uh, set back human progress, you know, until the Stone Age or something I don't know, pretty bad, probably scientists and engineers won't be very popular after that either. , it's like you get into this mess, so generally I think we obviously want to prioritize civilizational risks over things that are painful and tragic locally but not civilizational.

How do you hope the war in Ukraine will come to an end and what is the path once again to minimizing human suffering there? Well, I think what will probably happen, which is actually more or less like this, is that something very close to the current lines will be how a ceasefire or a truce will occur, but you know you have a situation right now. where whoever goes on the offensive will suffer casualties at a rate several times higher than whoever is on the defense because you have defense and depth, you have minefields trenches anti-tank defenses no one has air superiority because the anti-aircraft missiles are actually much better that the planes, like they have a lot more, um and uh, so neither side has air superiority.

Tanks are basically deadly drafts. They simply move slowly and are not immune to anti-tank weapons. I really only have long range artillery um and uh infantry trenches, it's World War I again mhm with drones, you know, dropping little drones, some drones in there, um, which makes long range artillery much more accurate, better and more efficient at killing people. both sides mhm, yeah, so it's whoever you are, no, no, you don't want to try to advance from either side because the probability of dying is incredibly high, so to overcome the defense and the deep trenches and minefields.

You really need significant numbers of local superiority, ideally combine weapons where you do a quick attack with planes, a concentrated number of tanks and a lot of people, that's the only way you're going to get through a line and then you have to get through and then have no reinforcements. just kick you out again. I mean, reallyI recommend people read uh World War I in detail, it's difficult, um, I mean, the sheer number of people that died there was mind-blowing and it's almost impossible. um, imagine the ending not looking almost exactly like the beginning in terms of which land b

elon

gs to whom and so on, but on the other side of a large number of human beings suffering death and destruction of infrastructure, yes, the reason why I proposed a kind of Cru or peace a year ago because I predicted quite accurately what would happen, which is that a lot of people basically die for almost nothing. changes in the land um and this is the loss of the flower of Ukrainian and Russian youth and we should have some sympathy for the Russian children as well as the Ukrainian children because the Russian children did not ask to be in their line, they have to be like this , um, there are a lot of children who don't go back to their parents, you know, and I think most of them don't, they don't really have, they don't hate the other side, you know, it's kind of like, does this saying come from World War I? ?

It is as if young people who do not know each other kill each other in the name of old people who do know each other. That's the point of it. So Vladimir Zalinski said that he is not or he has said in the past that he is not interested in talking directly to Putin. Do you think he should, yes, sit among leaders and negotiate peace? Look, I think he would simply recommend that you not send the flower of Ukrainian youth to die. trenches, whether I talk to Putin or not, just don't do that, whoever goes on the offensive will lose a large number of people and history will not look kindly on them, you spoke honestly about the possibility of a war between us and China In the long term, if a diplomatic solution is not found, for example, on the issue of Taiwan and one China, how can we avoid the trajectory where these two superpowers collide?

Well, that book about the difficult trick of cheating is worth reading. I believe it's called. I love war history, I like it inside out and vice versa. There is hardly a battle that I haven't read about and I try to find out what really was the cause of victory in a particular case compared to what one side or the other claimed. it was the reason for both the Victory and what caused the war and yes, yes, the whole thing, yes, so Athens and Sparta are a classic case. The thing about the Greeks is that they really wrote a lot of things that they loved to write, you know, there are a lot of interesting things that happened in many parts of the world, but people didn't write them down, so we don't know what happened or they didn't write in detail, they simply said that we went, we had a battle and we won. and what can you add a little more?

The Greeks really wrote a lot, they were very eloquent, they just love to write, so we have a lot of those writings that are preserved, so we know what led to the Pelia war between um. Spoton and the Athenian Alliance um and uh, we know they saw it coming. I mean, the Spartans didn't do the right thing. They weren't very forum in nature either, but they did well, but they weren't very good. they were tur uh but the Athenians and the other Greeks wrote wrote a line and they were like um and spot was really like the leader of Greece um but Athens got stronger and stronger with each passing year and um and everyone says Well, it's inevitable let there be a clash between Athens and Sparta.

Well, how can we avoid it? There is whether one group of a civilization or country or whatever exceeds another type of if you know the United States has been the biggest kid in the Bloc since, I think, around 1890 from an economic standpoint, so the United States has been the economic The most powerful economic engine in the world since nobody has been alive um and the basis of war is the economy so now we have a situation in the case of China where the economy is probably two or three times bigger than the US, so imagine you're the biggest kid on the block for as long as anyone can remember and suddenly a kid appears who's twice your size, so we see it coming, yeah, how is it possible to stop?

Are there some, let me throw something out there? mixing of cultures, understanding, there seems to be a giant cultural gap in mutual understanding and you're an interesting case study because you're American, obviously, you've made a lot of amazing manufacturers here in the United States, but also working with China I've spent a lot of time in China and have met with the leaders many times. Maybe a good question is what are some things about China that people don't understand, positive just in the culture, what interesting things I have learned about the Chinese, well the sheer number of really smart and hardworking people in China is amazing.

There are actually people who say: how many smart, hard-working people are there in China? There are many more there than here, I think. in my opinion, they have a lot of energy, so I mean the architecture in China in recent years is much more impressive than in the US. I mean the train stations, the buildings, the high-speed rail, everything is really much more impressive than what we have in the US. I mean, I recommend that someone go to Shanghai and Beijing, look at the buildings and go take the train from Beijing to Shion, it has the Terracotta Warriors.

China has an incredible history, a very long history and you know. I think in terms of language use from a written standpoint, it's one of the oldest, maybe the oldest written language, and then the people of China wrote things down, so now China, historically, has always been with rare exception it has been internally focused um they have not been acquisitive uh they have fought each other they have been in many civil wars um in the War of the Three Kingdoms I think they lost about 70% of their population so and so I have had brutal internal wars, as civil wars, which make the US Civil War seem small in comparison.

So I think it's important to appreciate that China is not monolithic. We think that China is some kind of single entity with one mind and this is definitely not the case, from what I have seen, and I think most people who understand China would agree that people in China think in China 10 times more than he thinks about anything outside of China, so it's like 90% of his consideration is you. I know this is internal, well isn't that a really positive thing when you're talking about collaboration and future peace between superpowers when you look inward, which is like focusing on improving yourself versus focusing on yourself, quote unquote, improve others? through military power, the good news, China's history suggests that China is not curious, which means they are not going to go out and invade a bunch of countries.

Now they feel it very strongly, you know, so that's good, I mean, because many. Many very powerful countries have been curious. The United States is one of the few cases that have not been curious. After World War II, the United States could have basically taken over the world and any country like us got nuclear weapons. Nobody else. we have nuclear weapons, we don't even have to lose soldiers, what country do you want? M and the United States could have seized everything or at will and they did not. The United States actually helped the reviu countries, so it helped rebuild Europe. helped rebuild Japan um, this is very unusual, almost unprecedented behavior, um, you know, the United States did notorious acts of kindness, like the Burland airlift, you know, um, and I think you know it's always like that , well, America has done bad things, well, of course, America has done bad things. but you have to look at the whole history and, in general, you know that one type of test would be how you treat your prisoners of war MH or let's say, you don't know how to offend the Russians, but let's say that you're in Germany, we're in 1945, You have the Russian army coming on one side, you have the French, British and American armies coming on the other side, who would you like to surrender to?

Like no country is morally perfect, but I recommend that you be a PW with the Americans that would be my very strong choice on the entire P menu and in fact, Von Brown, um, yeah, he took, you know, smart guy, uh , it was like we had to be captured by the Americans And, in fact. The SS had orders to execute Bar Brown and all the German rocket engineers and the SSI narrowly escaped him. They said they were going to go for a walk in the woods. They left in the middle of winter without coats and ran. and no food, no shelter, no water, and he just ran like hell and ran west, and by Sherlock, I think his brother found a bike or something, and then he just pedaled west as fast as he could and found a US Patrol, um, anyway, that's one way to know that morality is who, who, where you want to be PW, it's not fun anywhere, but some places are much worse than others, so which, anyway, just like that, just like the United States has been, until now. of perfect uh usually a benevolent Force um and uh we should always be self-critical and uh try to be better um but um anyone with half a reason knows that so I think in this way there is China and the United States are similar NE None of the countries has been curious in a significant way, so it's like a shared principle.

I guess China has a very strong feeling about Taiwan now. They have been very clear about this for a long time. You know, from their point of view, it's like one of the states, you don't know like Hawaii or something, but it's more significant than Hawaii, you know, and Hawaii is pretty important to us, so they see it as really existed. a critical part of China, Trench Island, not Taiwan, which is not part of China, but should be, and the only reason it hasn't been is because of the US Pacific Fleet and its power economic growth and its military power. grows what they're saying clearly, uh, it's their interest, will you know it will materialize clearly?

Yes, China has been very clear that they will incorporate Taiwan peacefully or militarily, but that they will incorporate it from their point of view is 100% likely, you know? something you said about conspicuous acts of kindness as a geopolitical policy almost seems naïve, but I would dare say this is probably the way to go to avoid most wars just as you say, it sounds naïve, but it's a brilliant thing if believe in the goodness underlying most of human nature, it just seems that conspicuous acts of kindness can ripple through the populations of the countries involved, yeah, well, and absolutely diminish after World War I, when they committed a huge mistake, you know, basically try to put all the blame on Germany um and um and you know, they solved JY with uh impossible reparations um and you know there really was a lot of BL, there was enough blame to um going through the First World War um but they They tried to, you know, put it all in Germany um and uh that was what laid the seeds for World War II uh so a lot of people, well, not just because a lot of people felt wronged and they wanted revenge and they got it.

People don't forget it. Yes, you kill someone's father, mother, son, daughter, they are not going to forget it, they will want revenge. So after World War II, they say the Asai Treaty was a big mistake in the World War. Me and um, so this time instead of uh, you know, crushing the losers, we're actually going to help them with the Marshal plan and we're going to help R Revolt Germany, we're going to help reor you know, Austria and the other one, you know Italy and all that, so, that was the right move. It feels like there is a deep truth in conspicuous type acts as an antidote to this.

Something must stop the cycle of reciprocal violence. Something must stop him. you will know it will never stop just an eye for an eye tooth for a tooth limb for limb life for a life forever and ever briefly escaping the darkness was an amazing piece of engineering uh xai just launched grock The AI ​​assistant I had the opportunity to play is amazing on many levels. First of all, it is surprising that a relatively small team in a relatively short period of time was able to develop something so close to cutting-edge technology. system uh other uh amazing things there's a normal mode and there's a fun mode yeah, I guess I'm to blame for that.

I wish first of all, I wish that everything in life had a fun mode, yes, there is something compelling Beyond Just Fun about the fun mode interacting with a large language model. I'm not sure exactly what it is because I only had a little time to play with it, but it makes it more interesting, more vibrant, interacting with the system, yes, absolutely, I own it. our AI Gro is modeled after the hedgehog that came to the galaxy, uh, which is one of my favorite books, uh, which is a book about philosophy disguised as a book about humor, um, and um, I would say it's the basis of My Philosophy, uh. which is that we don't know the meaning of life, but the more we can expand the scope and scale of digital and biological Consciousness, the more we can understand what questions to ask about the angel that is the universe, so I have a philosophy.

Out of curiosity, there is usually a feeling that this artificial intelligence system has an external appearance similar to the way you are, like sitting with a good friendlooking at the stars like the question panel, like questions about the universe, wondering what the Curiosity you speak of is all about. There's a feeling, no matter how mundane the question I ask, there's a feeling of Cosmic Grandeur about the whole thing, well, we're actually working hard to have engineering, math and

physics

answers that you can count on MH um, so, for the other type of AIS that exists, these so-called big language models, um, I haven't found the engineering to be reliable, um, and the hallucination.

Unfortunately, Mo hallucinates the most when you least wanted to hallucinate, yeah, so when you ask important, difficult questions, that's when he tends to get it wrong for sure, um, so we're trying really hard to say, okay, how can we be so grounded? ? as much as possible so you can count on the results um Trace things back to the first principles of

physics

U mathematical logic um so underlying the humor is an aspiration to adhere to the truth of the universe as closely as possible that's really complicated that's complicated That's why I know there will always be a certain amount of error, but we want to aim to be as honest as possible about the answers, with error recognized and so that it always exists, you don't want to be wrong with confidence, so you won't always be right, but you don't want to downplay how often you're sure you're wrong and then like I said, once you can count on logic as not violating physics, then you can start building on that to create uh inventions like invent new technologies, but if you can't, if you can't count on the fundamental physics being correct, obviously, inventions are just illusions, you know imagination and magic basically well, like you said, I think one of the big goals. of Do you think it will make the discoveries more or less?

One of the most attractive discoveries of theirs is, as we know now, unifying general relativity and quantum mechanics, so creating the theory of everything do you think could move in that direction almost like the discoveries of theoretical physics if an AI can't discover new physics? um, it's clearly not equal to humans, let Al nor has surpassed humans because humans have discovered a new physics, you just know physics is just understanding, you know, how reality works and then, then, then, this engineering that is inventing things that have never existed MH, now the range of possibilities for engineering is much greater than for physics because you know that once you discover the rules of the universe, that's it, you have discovered things that already existed, but from that you can build.

The technologies with that are really almost unlimited in the variety and the limit, you know, it's like once you understand the rules of the game correctly and we do it with the current physics, at least on a local level we understand how the physics works very well , our ability to predict. things are incredibly cool, like quantum mechanics, the degree to which quantum mechanics can predict outcomes is incredible, um, that was my hardest class in college, by the way, my senior quantum mechanics class was harder than all my other classes combined. getting an artificial intelligence system, a big language model to make it as reliable as quantum mechanics and physics is very difficult, yes you have to test any conclusion against the fundamental truth of reality, reality is the ultimate judge, Since physics is the law, everything else is a recommendation.

I have seen many people break the laws made by man, but none break the laws made by physics. It's a good test, in fact, if this LM understands and matches the physics, then you can more reliably trust what it thinks about current. policy state in sense and it's also not the case currently that even their internal logic is not consistent, especially with these with the approach of just predicting a token, predicting the token, predicting the token, it's like vector addition, you know. you're summarizing a bunch of vectors but you can deviate, so when there's a little bit of error, a little bit of error adds up and when you have a lot of tokens in the way, eh, it's no good. any sense MH then it has to be somehow self-aware about the drift it has to be self-aware about the drift and then look at the thing as a whole and say it has coherence as a whole mhm then you know when, when authors write books, they'll write the book and then they'll go and revise it, you know, keeping in mind, you know the whole ending, the beginning and the middle and they'll rewrite it for consistency so that it doesn't end up in a place without sense mhm maybe the review process is what the reasoning is and then that's the review process is how you get closer and closer to the truth maybe you like it uh at least I get closer that way you just say a lot from first and then you get it better, you start and then you create a draft and then, and then, and then you iterate on that draft, um until it's coherent until it's, it all adds up basically, so another question. about the Theory of Everything But for intelligence, do you think it exists as you explore this with xai creating this intelligence system?

Do you think there is a theory of intelligence where you can understand what is the ey in AGI and what is the ey in human intelligence there is no ey in Team America oh wait there is H that will get stuck in my head now uh yeah, it's not me and whatever uh in quantum mechanics oh wait uh I mean, it's that part of the process of discovering understanding the universe is understanding intelligence, yeah, yeah, I think we need to understand intelligence, understand consciousness, I mean, there are some kind of fundamental questions, like what is thought, what is emotion, yeah, um, is it really just an atom colliding with another atom? like more than that uh so I think we're probably missing out on some really big things um like some really big things something that will be obvious in retrospect yeah like there's a giant like you put all the emotion of Consciousness well some people would say that like a soul, you know religion, a soul, um, like you feel like you're right.

I mean, you don't feel like you're just a collection of atoms, but in what dimension does thought exist, in what dimensions do emotions exist? them very strongly um I suspect there's more to this than atoms colliding with atoms and maybe AI can pave the way to Discovery what the heck is that thing yeah, what is consciousness like what when you put atoms in a particular shape by what are they able to form thoughts and take actions what and feelings and even if it's an illusion why is this illusion so convincing yes like why does this illusion exist yes on what plane does this exist the solution yes um and sometimes I wonder if it is you know, maybe everything is conscious or nothing is conscious um one of the two I like the first all conscious it just seems more fun it just seems more fun yes um but we are made up of atoms and those atoms are made up of quarks and leptons and those are the quarks and the leptons They've been around since the beginning of the universe the beginning of the universe right, what appears to be the beginning of the universe the first time we talked you said what you would do which is surreal to think that this discussion was happening is becoming a reality.

I asked you what question you would ask an AGI system once you create it and you said that what is outside the simulation is the question and good question, yes, but it seems that with Gro you literally started doing that. The goal of the system is to be able to ask those questions to answer those questions and ask those questions where are the

aliens

where are the

aliens

that's one of the questions similar to the FY paradox um a lot of people have asked me if I've seen any evidence of aliens and I haven't, which is a little worrying because then I think I'd probably prefer to at least have seen some orological evidence of aliens.

As far as I know, there are no Pros. I'm not aware of any evidence of aliens out there. They are very subtle, we could be the only Consciousness at least in the galaxy, um, and if you look at the history of the Earth, we believe that the archaeological record of the Earth has a civilization of approximately 4.5 billion years, according to measured from the first writing. is only about 5,000 years old, we have to give some credit to the ancient Samaritans who no longer exist. I think it was an archaic pre-uniform, it was the first real symbolic representation, but only about 5,000 years ago, I think that's a good date for when I would say civilization began that's a millionth of the Earth's existence so civilization has existed it's really a flash in the pan mhm until now um and why did it take us so long you know 4 and a half billion years um for the The vast majority of the time there was no life and then there were archaic bacteria for a long time and then you know you had mitochondria captured multicellular life um differentiation into plants and animals life moving from the oceans to land mammals um higher brain functions and the sun is slowly expanding, but it will overheat, it will heat up the Earth, at some point in the future, it will boil.

The oceans and the Earth will become like Venus, where there is no life. Life as we know it is impossible. If we do not become multiplanetary and eventually move beyond our solar system, the annihilation of all life on Earth is a certainty, a certainty, and could be as small as on the galactic time scale, 500 million years, already You know, a long time for humans. standards, but that's only 10% longer than the Earth has existed mhm, so if life had taken 10% longer to evolve on Earth, it wouldn't exist at all, we have a deadline coming up, better hurry, but that being said, like you said, humans.

Intelligent life on Earth developed a lot of interesting things very quickly, so yes, it seems that becoming multiplanetary is almost inevitable unless we destroy, we have to. I mean, it's not. I suspect there, if we are able to go. There is a good chance that we will find a lot of civilizations from a planet long dead, yes, they never made it to their home planet, that is very sad, yes, sad, also fascinating. I mean, there are many explanations for that. To my paradox, one is that they are these big filters that civilizations don't go through and one of those big filters is whether you become a multiple civilization or not, and if you don't, it's simply a matter of time before something happens.

It happens on your planet, you know, whether it's natural or man-made, that makes us go extinct like the dinosaurs, where are they now? They didn't have spaceships, so I think it's most likely that you just empathize with the aliens that they found us protecting us and letting us be. I hope they are aliens as kind as the tribes in the Amazon, the tribes in contact were protecting them, that's what would be a good explanation or you could have said, what was it? It's, uh, I think Andre Kathi said it's like ants in the Amazon asking where everyone is.

Well, they run into a lot of other ants. That's true. These ant wars sound like a good TV show. Yes, they literally have these big VAR ant wars. Yeah. Maybe I'm just uh uh dismissing all the different diversity events. You should listen to that Wner Hog talking about the jungle. It's very funny, have you heard it? No, I haven't, but Wner Hog has a way that you should play, you should play. for you know, like an interlude itself, it's on YouTube, it's amazing, I love it so much, it's great, was the director of Happy People Life in the Tiger?

I think I also made that documentary about the bear. The documentary about the bear and this about penguins, yes, the depr, the psychoanalysis of P psych, yes, penguins like to go to mountains like those that are 70 miles away. The Penguin just addressed Doom basically well, he had a cynical attitude. I have one, he could just be brave. Explorer and great stories will be told about him among the penguin population for many centuries to come. What are we talking about, okay, yeah, so aliens. I mean, I don't know. Look, I think it's the smart decision. the first time in Earth's history that it has been possible for life to spread beyond Earth that window is open now it can be open for a long time or it can be open for a short time and it can be open from time to time never open again, so I think the smart decision here is to make life multiplanetary while it's possible to do so, we don't want to be one of those boring single planet civilizations that just die out, no, those are boring, boring, a civilization that respects itself.

There would be a planet, there won't be a Wikipedia entry for one of those and, pause, does SpaceX have an official policyfor when we meet aliens, isn't that right, that seems irresponsible? I mean, look if I see even the slightest hint that there are aliens, I'll post immediately on the next platform, yeah, anything, I know it might be the most liked reposted post of all time, yeah, I mean, look, we have more satellites there right now than all the others combined so you know we know if we know if we will. I have to maneuver around something and we don't.

I don't have to maneuver around anything. If you go to the big questions again, you said that you are with Einstein, that you believe in the god of Spinosa, yes, then, I know that it is a view that God is like the universe and is revealed through the laws of physics or, as Einstein said, through the legal harmony of the world. Yes, I would agree that that simulator God or whatever, the Supreme Being or the um um beings. They are revealed through physics, you know that they are the creators of this existence and it is up to us to try to understand more about this wonderful creation, like who created this thing. who is executing this like embodying it in a singular question with one word sexy on top it's like focusing the mind to understand it seems like there was a um again it could be an illusion it seemed like there was a purpose underneath L master plan of some kind, it seems like there may not be a master plan in the sense that maybe An interesting answer to the question of determinism versus free will is that if we are in a simulation, the reason these higher beings maintain a simulation is to see what happens mhm so it's not um they don't know what happens uh de otherwise they wouldn't maintain the simulation mhm so when humans create a simulation then it's Basx and Tesla we create simulations all the time um especially For the rocket, you know you have to run a lot of simulations to understand what's going to happen because you can't really test the rocket until it goes to space and you want it to work, so you have to simulate it. subsonic transonic hyper supersonic Hypersonic um rise and then come back super high Warming up and um general dynamics this is all going to be simulated so you're not going to get a lot of kicks in the can, but we run the simulations to see what happens, not if we knew what happens, we wouldn't run the simulation, mhm, so if so, whoever created this existence, they're running it because they don't know what's going to happen, not because they do, maybe we both play Diablo, maybe Diablo. was created to see if a druid your character could defeat Uber Lilith in the end they didn't know well, the funny thing is that her title is hate incarnate, yeah, and right now I guess you can ask the Diablo team, but it's almost impossible defeat hate uh in the Eternal realm yeah yeah you've passed on mastering level 100 nightmare dungeons and yet I can navigate through level 100 nightmare dungeons like a walk in the park mhm and you're still defeated by hate, yes, I can there.

I guess maybe the second most popular boss is Durial Durial can't even scratch paint so I killed Duel Dural so many times um and all the other bosses in the game everyone kills him so many times it's easy um but u, aka hate incarnate especially if you're a druid and you don't have the ability to be vulnerable there are these random waves of death that come towards you um and I'm pretty you know I'm 52 so my reflection is no longer what it is They used to be, but I've been playing

video

games

all my life. At one point I was, you know, maybe one of the best Quake players in the world.

I actually made money for what I think were the first payments. tournament in the US. We are doing four-person Quake tournaments and we came in second place. I was the second best person on the team and the best person we would have actually won, we would have been first, except the best person on the team his computer crashed. Halfway through the game, um, we came in second, but I got money for it and everything, so I basically have skills, you know, I'll be on, you know, no, there's no spring chicken these days and, um, be totally Frank It's driving me crazy. trying to beat Lilith as a druid basically trying to try to beat trying to beat hatred and connate in the Eternal realm as a druid as a druid and if you, yes, yes, this is really irritating, let me tell you, I mean, the challenge is part . from the fun that I've seen directly like you're actually like an amazing world class

video

game player, yeah, and I think Diablo, so you're learning a new game and you're discovering the fundamentals of it, you're also with Paragon.

The board and construction is not someone like me who perfectly follows everything they suggest on the internet. You're also an innovator, yeah, which is funny to see, it's like a mad scientist trying to figure out the Paragon board and the build and you know, um, are there any interesting ideas about um, if someone is starting out as a druid, do you have any advice? The kingdom is the sorcerer with the lightning mhm, the SS have huge balls in um, the seasonal ones, well yeah, that's what they say. The SS have huge balls, um, they do, uh, huge balls of lightning, uh, I'll take your word for it and it's actually in the seasonal realm you can, you can, it's pretty easy to beat Uber lth with a because you get these vampire powers that they amplify your damage and increase your defense and all that, so really, it's pretty easy to defeat hate seasonally, but defeating hate eternally is very difficult. um almost impossible, it's impossible, it seems like that, you know, a metaphor for life, you know, I like the idea of ​​Elon Musk because I saw that he was playing diao yesterday and I saw 100 level 100 Druid just running I will never die and then I will come back running from another way and there's just something to this metaphor it's kind of hilarious that you, Elon Musk, are fighting hate tirelessly fighting hate in this demonic realm yeah, it's hilarious I mean, it's pretty hilarious no, it's absurd really it's exercise and absurd and it makes me want to throw my hair down, yeah, um, I, what do you get out of video

games

in general, is there something there for you, for you, person, I, I don't know, it's, uh, calm down my Mind you, I mean, you kill demons in a video game.

The demons in my mind, yeah, if you play a difficult video game, you can get into a state of flow which is a lot of fun, um and uh, but it's true that it doesn't have to be too easy or too hard, like I'm in the zone from Goldilocks. and I guess you generally want to feel like you're progressing in the game, so, a good video and there's also beautiful art, interesting stories, and it's like an amazing puzzle to solve, I think, and it's like solving the Puzzle Elder Ring, the best game of all time. I haven't played it yet, but you, Alen Ring, is definitely a top-five contender for best game of all time.

I think I've been scared by how hard it is or how hard I hear it. it's like that but it's beautiful alen ring it feels like it's designed by an alien um there's a theme in this discussion which way it is it's so unusual it's incredibly creative and the art is stunning I recommend playing it in a high resolution P Dynamic R TV not even it needs to be a monitor just uh the art is amazing it's so beautiful and it's so unusual um and each of those main boss battles is unique like it's like a unique puzzle to solve each of the different um and the strategy you use to resolve a battle is different from another battle you said you said Druid in Eternal vs.

Uber Lilith is the hardest boss battle you've ever fixed and it's currently the and I've played a lot of videos. Games because it's my main recreational activity, yes, um, and yes, defeating hatred on the internal level, yes, it is the most difficult boss battle in life and in the video game, man four. I'm not sure it's possible, but I'm making progress, so then. I'm okay, I'm making progress, maybe if I modify the Paragon board a little more I can do it, I could dodge a few more waves. I can do it well. The simulation was created with the purpose of discovering if it can be done. it's done and you're just a cog in that simulation in the simulation machine yes it could be I I I I I have the feeling that at least I think it's feasible it's feasible yes mhm well that's the human Spirit there to believe yes I say it it really prompted me to just think about hate in general, which is that you have to be careful with one of those things where you want something that sounds good, but if you get it, it's actually a dystopian situation, so you know you could Running some sort of thesis like you want world peace sounds good, but how do you apply it? and at what cost is it at what cost?

Eternal peace, it might actually be worse to have eternal peace because of what that would entail. suppression of everyone, it could be the suppression of progress, it could be an oopi society that never changes mhm, what I'm saying is that there is an argument that if you don't want any war, you should be careful what you wish for. because what is required for no war could be worse than a small war, yes, the things we consider failures of human civilization could be necessary components for any optimal aspect, um, I mean, this, do you care? allowing for a dystopian state of this nature, whether it be 1984 with surveillance and fear or Brave New World with pleasure and what it is.

Lots of sex but no deep human experience. You know, there's actually a real drug called soma. Yeah, I'm like. Actually Grock knows no, he's probably going to Brave New World. We could ask him what the question would be. Tell us about the drug called soma. Tell us about the drug called Som. I think he's going to Brave New World. well there's also a real drug, I'm looking for so much information about drugs, oh boy, ah it's the wonder drug, by the way, I'm in fun mode, oh, okay, yeah, so it's about the real drug, oh, it's a muscle relaxant that has been around since the 1950s.

It was used to treat muscle aches and pains and does this by altering the activity between neurons and the spinal cord. Now Soma is not only a painkiller, it is also a bit of a sedative. It may make you feel a little drowsy, so it's not like that. something to take if you plan on operating heavy machinery or trying to solve complex mathematical equations and it goes on and on to a conclusion. Som is a medicine that can be useful for those suffering from muscle pain, but it is not without risks, it is quite good. oh wait a minute, that's what the real drug is all about, it's the real drug, yes, and of course the fun is always using it responsibly according to the advice of a health professional and remember that, when In the end, the universe is probably just a giant computer simulation. so don't take anything too seriously.

I love it, I love it, I love it, I love it, yeah, oh, that's really good too. It includes tweets posted on X that are relevant to this, which is really cool, yeah, it integrates everything. together yeah the interface is one of the really cool things here yeah it looks like a great job done so and you say you could say no no I mean Soma from bra Brave New World because he thinks you mean that it is real. drug yeah, no, I mean, from the world of bras, it's going to be like Oops, I'm so sorry, I'm really surprised who went to the real drug first, ah, my apologies, I was thinking about muscle relaxation in s for a whole new world.

Completely different beast now this Huxley dystopia now Som is a drug that plays a central role in the society depicted in the book it is a genetic mood altering hucog drug that is used to keep the population docile and content in the novel to use so many Brave New increases some interesting questions about the nature of happiness and the role of drugs in society oh man, is it exactly better to live in a world where everyone is happy all the time, even if that happy happiness is artificial? It's a good question, this is what I mean.

Do you want world peace and happiness all the time, are you sure? mhm um because that could be a society that is essentially sterile and aifi that never changes that is ultimately doomed to fail this kind of tension between uh light this is actually a very good summary umh, you really get the point if this is not just regurgitating Brave New World but it's actually about getting to the outgoing element of Soma like a drug. um, do you really want to be in a situation where everyone is happy all the time even though it's artificial or is it better to face life's challenges and experience a full range of human emotions even if that means experiencing pain and suffering for those listening, the way Elon just read directly from Gro, which is a really nice kind of insightful philosophical analysis of the tension here is interesting, pretty clear in conclusion.

Som from Brave New World is a fictional drug that used to explore some deep philosophical questions about the nature of happiness and the role of drugs in society. It is a powerful symbol of the dangers of drug use. to escape reality and the importance of facing life's challenges, I did it and the crazy thing is you know we have a real drug called soma, which is like the drug in the book and I'm like, Should they have had a name? They must have named it after, probably, some of the actual medicine is quite effective for painI mean, I try to think about what, what, what.

It's going to affect the future in a good way um and holding grudges MH doesn't affect the future in a good way your father a proud father what have you learned about the life of your children those little biological organisms I mean developing Ai and observing? Let's say a little growth of X is fascinating because they are formal parallels to what you would have expected. I mean, I can see your biological neural network making more and more sense of the world and I can see the digital neural network making more and more sense of the world at the same time.

Do you see the beauty and magic in both? Yeah, I mean, one of the things with kids is you know you see the world as something new in their eyes. everything is new and fresh and um and then when you see that they experienced them, the world is new and fresh, you do very well, Elon, I just want to say thank you for your kindness to me and your friendship over the years to see something. on a dumb kid like me, as you have done with many others and, thank you for having hope in a positive future for Humanity and for working hard to make this happen, thank you Yan, thank you Lex, thank you for listening to this conversation with Elon Musk to support this

podcast

, check out our sponsors in the description and now let me leave you with a few words that Walter Isacson wrote about the core philosophy of how Elon approaches difficult problems, the only rules are those dictated by the laws of physics.

Thanks for listening and I hope to see you next time.