Understanding The Narcissists In Your Life And What To Do About Them Feat. Dr. Ramani | Mel Robbins

I find narcissism to be an absolutely fascinating topic and the reason I don't think it's dark is because I think when you understand

what

it is and

what

it isn't and when you have tools, suddenly there is a light. at the end of the tunnel you are walking through and you realize that you are not crazy, you are close to someone who makes you believe that you are right, that is very well said and in a way I agree with you on what it is letting you know in the past we would have said a road map no, I would like to think of it as a GPS.

I'm giving people a I hope to give

them

some guidance on what they're dealing with and not in an accusatory you're bad, I'm good, but to a greater extent this may not be good for me and not the challenge in this space of narcissism is that so many people is reversed and can I make this person change? be better I can do something different to get something different out of

them

and that's enough that's not going to change right it's like trying to change the weather there's nothing you can do to make Chicago warmer in February it's going to be cold bundle up big city, but it's going to be cold, okay, I want, I want to go, there was a wake-up call right there when you finished listening to this episode and you understand what narcissism is and you learn the signs to spot it.

Takeaway Number One is that you can't change the weather in Chicago and you can't change the behavior of a narcissist, so let's start at the beginning because people are fascinated with the topic of narcissism. Now the word is used all the time. What is the definition of a narcissist? so, I don't even want to go to Step Zero, from step one here is to say that narcissism is not a diagnosis, okay, wait, how is it not like that for everyone, don't diagnose people, I say, okay, I I approach someone, I said. If I called you stubborn you would tell me that I was diagnosing you they are like no if I told you that you were nice you would tell me that I was diagnosing you you know then why do you say that narcissism is a diagnosis when it is not a personality style just like agreeableness just like introversion, those are all personality styles, no one puts the whole b on their hood when we say those other things, wait a minute, I thought this was like a diagnosis, look, I'm already learning things from you. so narcissistic personality disorder is a diagnosis, right, okay, it's three very specific words, it's like let me put it this way, no one would be mad at you if you walked up and said, God, you're sad, you seem a little. depressed don't diagnose me it would be okay if you said oh you're sad you seem a little depressed right why depressed is actually kind of a clinical term true depression is actually called major depressive disorder it's a diagnosis that's actually more about Period, but this word It has people so nervous, don't diagnose me, it's interesting, it's a pattern that is rewarded by society and yet people don't want to be called that, I'm like choosing a lane folks, so let's start here. it's a personality style it's a maladaptive style it's an antagonistic style but it's a style that's no different than any other personality style okay so I make sure that I'm following and that everyone is following so basically we've collapsed two things when we talk about narcissism in society there are

narcissists

and narcissism, which is a personality style that is maladaptive and that we can all exhibit at some point no it's okay no no no no I don't have a personality you have a personality people listening and seeing They have a personality and that is their personality.

I know I am, for example, Mel. I'm introverted. It's okay, everyone says no, you talk too much. Oh hell no, there was a day the other day when I didn't talk to anyone. human being and I didn't leave my house it was the best day of my week and people you're not sad and you're going out I say have fun don't call me like we're good so I'm an introvert by nature. I'm never going to be the

life

of the party. I will never want to go to a party. I'm not a board member and after spending time with a large group of people I collapse into bed, okay?

Yeah that's my personality okay I've been like that my whole

life

and that was formed so if that's my personality some people aren't a little introverted there's an extroverted person if you've ever spent time with one outgoing person. They actually lose their minds. I have no plans, where is everyone? I can't believe I need to be alone. I've worked with clients who are extroverts and they're really upset about it and, as an introverted therapist, for a while I thought something like this, it sounds like a fantasy camp, like three days alone, sign me up, you know, but I also have to be empathetic, this is difficult for them, they are exhausted from being alone.

I have an incredibly outgoing daughter and when she's alone for six hours she actually starts to feel very sad and that's real I can't say don't be ridiculous use

your

time alone like someone said don't be ridiculous Romney you're at a party you know, relax It's the same, that's why I say you are what you are. In fact, I think many people don't have narcissistic qualities, so this brings us to what the right personality disorders are, but there are two things. I'm following, we're going to talk, we're going to talk about narcissism as a personality style, yeah, and then narcissistic personality disorder, and I mean, it's a diagnosis, it's a diagnosis and you know, I don't even think we should do it. talk about it, okay, because the effect is that only one to maybe four percent of the population has this personality disorder, okay, the vast majority of cases are never diagnosed and it's really I think they should get rid of the diagnosis.

I don't think it serves any purpose. whatever it is, I really don't know, it's the only diagnosis in the world where having it means you do more harm to other people than

your

self, most disorders are based on the distress that the person themselves faces, a person with major depressive disorder is really struggling with a person with generalized anxiety disorder is experiencing distress, even other personality disorders, such as borderline personality disorder, these are people who have a lot of distress, Narcissistic personality, as long as life goes the way they want, they are as happy as possible and until something goes right. bad, then they yell at everyone and then when it goes back to how they are, they tend to make more money, they are much more successful, they tend to be more successful in dating, so I think this is a difficult diagnosis. to give out now, let's discuss what narcissism is, okay, great, so if I and I just want to make sure because this is a very interesting topic and obviously there's a lot of content everywhere, but in my opinion, you're the best in the world. leading expert on this and what you're basically saying is that if we understand what a narcissistic personality is, that's enough, yes, because then you can spot the signs, then you can learn to protect yourself and if I'm going to extrapolate what you're saying is that you're basically saying that between one and four percent of people who ever receive that diagnosis already have that personality type anyway, so it doesn't matter, it's just disproportionate and finally now they're in therapy and they don't . most

narcissists

don't know how to go to therapy, that's what I'm saying, so there are a lot of people who may have this quote-unquote diagnosis and will never be diagnosed because they're never on the other side of the table. from a licensed mental health professional who is actually the only person qualified to make such a diagnosis and I'll be honest with you, even most people who have the disorder are never documented anywhere because the insurance company doesn't. she's going to pay for therapy because you can't do anything about it so yeah wait so it was just her too you just said it again you can't change the weather in Chicago and you can't do anything to change someone with a narcissistic personality, yeah and let's take this a little further, okay so I'm going to be kind of a provocateur here, personality is harsh, there are different schools of thought about how much personality can change, okay, there's a bit of room for maneuver and I think the more the greater the psychological and personality flexibility of a person, the healthier the person is, it's almost like your body, the more flexible it is, the more you exercise it, the less likely you are to develop osteoporosis and break bones, and all that flexibility is anything but I would say it's more important psychologically than it is physically, which is why people stretch before they exercise.

Oh, that's interesting because what I'm thinking now is that there's a, well, there's a pretty famous Ted Talk, but I think. it's Dr. Schwartz talking about personality and what he basically says and now I realize it's the flexibility you're talking about, like you said, I'm a professor and I'm very introverted, but when I care I can be flexible. I can stand in front of that, you know that classroom and I can profess, but the moment the lecture ends, I collapse, I'm done, that's it, so the flexibility you're talking about is that an extrovert like I can shut up and be alone when it's important an introvert like you can stand in front of the microphone invite people to your house when it's important but that flexibility is very limited it's tied to when it's important to you but then you return to your baseline is that What I'm saying is that, in fact, there is a theory and I hope to give credence to that to the right person.

I think it's the people at Campbell writing about this. The idea of ​​the rubber band theory of personality and the rubber band idea is that we all have the rubber bands of our personality sitting there in their state, that's who we are, but we can stretch them, okay, we can stretch them a little bit, but when we go back to baseline or even in times of stress, we go to our baseline personality, that's the challenge. that person with a narcissistic personality not only has trouble stretching, it's not even stretching so much as changing, you see here's the challenge with the narcissistic personality that I haven't described yet and I'm aware of it, I'm sorry, but uh with a The challenge with the narcissistic personality is that it is a very self-centered and selfish style, true, it is designed to get them what they need, it is what helps them feel safe, what helps them feel happy, with very little regard for others. , other personality styles. kindness, in fact, kindness is considered the counterbalance to narcissism, so narcissism is actually what it is called, it is a real personality style, it is unpleasantness or antagonism, so if the unpleasantness of narcissism, kindness It's the other side of those nice people.

I love nice people, they are the best. I would like to have a small commune full of them. We are never going to take over the world and we are not going to make a lot of money, but let me tell you, he is very funny, empathetic, warm and flexible. uh, make accommodations for other people. following the rules is highly ethical, that is kindness, the opposite of narcissism, so what is narcissism? So narcissism is a person who has a lack of empathy and I'm going to talk about performative empathy, which I'll get to in a minute, okay? but they have little empathy or are inconsistent, are very entitled, are arrogant, are self-centered, chronically seek validation and admiration, need to be in control all the time, are poorly regulated emotionally, and are prone to strong displays of rage if they are frustrated or disappointed. or don't get in your way.

They are very easily provoked and are very sensitive if someone gives them feedback or criticism. They just get angry very quickly. They cannot be regulated at those times. They're very pretentious they tend to be very superficial um I mean the list is. It's that kind of thing now, the core of narcissism is a deep insecurity and that's the part we forget, these are not people who actually, at their most primal unconscious level, believe their hype. that all this is to create almost an armor around that unprocessed insecurity, the narcissistic person is always fighting a battle against shame and shame is that on an unconscious level people will see that it is not all that, in any case It insinuates to them that, like even if someone makes a joke at their expense, they lash out to maintain dominance because that's what you also want to know what motivates the narcissistic person power, dominance, control and, frankly, security because all of those things keep them safe if they have control.

If they are the boss if they have all the money then they feel good all the power whatever the fame is then they are fine that is narcissism the complicated thing about narcissism is that there are different ones, I forgot they are also very grandiose so they live in a fantasy world I'm going to have the perfect love story look at my perfect life you can see how social media took this grandiosity and turned it into something I've been studying narcissism since before social media existed and I was like, what the hell have you seen? I mean, what happened was that narcissism has always existed as long as you were human beings.

I suppose thatlike Attila the Hun.He was probably a narcissist. Napoleon could have been a narcissist. I think if you go back to the history books, in fact, when I helped my daughter with all of her ancient and even modern European history, I'm like a narcissistic narcissistic narcissist. said you see how much they shaped history to this day so I think what's always been there yeah okay the difference was in the past if you needed validation okay you and I are old enough to know about rotary dial phones and not answering. machines and there's no social media, okay, so there was a time when if you needed validation you actually had to clean up and leave the house, like you really had to get up and leave, you couldn't become famous even if you wrote a letter to the editor of the newspaper in some kind of rant the editor was going to get a hundred of these or they were going to get 100 of these and pick one so there wouldn't be a public place to do this, where the narcissists actually did their dirty work.

Would they harm the people around them? Very dominant, probably cruel to spouses, cruel to children. I think if you look at Family Lines in this intergenerational way, they'll say yeah, a really brutal father, a really brutal grandfather, a really brutal great-grandfather, and it often ties into things. like hierarchies, patriarchies, things that are very, very hierarchical, one person has the final say, not because they are a good person, but simply because these systems have always been there and what happened is that one day I remember it so well that I remember The house I lived in someone said to me: Have you seen this thing called Facebook?

I am like Facebook and every time I remember what Facebook was. Facebook was so cool, both photos you'd get in your first year of college like me. that's what the name of the place I went to college was called, so there's a Facebook and I'm like what's a college thing and they say no you have to go check this out, they said create an account so I did and I was like oh. This is what happened to all those people I went to high school with, okay, but at the time I thought, oh god, you just write stuff and people like it.

What was going through my head at that moment. I remember that my children were very small at that time and it is the moment that stays in my mind. I thought this was going to be a disaster. You know, it must have been like being a pulmonologist or a cardiologist when the cigarettes ran out. You're like what's going on, so at that moment I thought. the game is about to change, I had no idea what was coming with Instagram and influence and the only thing I had no idea was getting there, but I thought, wow, no one needs to leave the house, they can present a false version of themselves . grandiose version, the fantasy version and sitting at home and letting the validation come.

My concern was that this was going to worsen his overall narcissistic symptomatology and I think that has been borne out. Wow, can I ask you a question because this is one of the things that really changed my life when you taught me that narcissists are not born, they are made, what is it? Can you explain it to everyone? Because this is a game changer. Yes, get it, so no one is born this way. Well I guess. even in a family structure where you have a grandfather, a father like these, a dominant person or mother, you are not born a narcissist, everyone who hears this will say that there are four children in our family and I have a brother who is a narcissist and the rest.

We're all cool and kind and nice to each other so think about how many people have siblings like me, my sister is really nice and my other sisters are really really narcissistic so if that was the case it should show up in everyone. siblings or at least at least 50 percent of them, so how do you do it? So the most likely explanation is that it's very possible that this hasn't been isolated yet, but it's very possible that there is a biological vulnerability and that it would probably be passed on through something called the baby's temperament. The baby's temperament is the genetic part of our personality.

Anyone who has spent time with a baby will know that some children calm down very easily. Some kids are just easy. They're easy. Smiling and friendly babies. They're really sweet kids, right, and as they get older they stay sweet and the teachers like them and they have friends and they're just sweet, so they're those kids that won't stop crying and they're demanding and as they get older. up look at me look at me look at me look at me look at me and they are always doing things to get attention and they are disruptive and they don't sit still and when they enter preschool at school the teachers always sit stop that, so they are already starting to get bad vibes because of their constant attention-seeking behavior.

It's probably an interaction, in fact, the child may not be getting enough attention or her attachment needs are not being met, so you have this temporary biological vulnerability, yes, on your hands. of a skilled, attached, warm, present, loving, consistent parent who could be manageable and that kind of energy could be turned into athletic or creative interests and that child will not feel pathologized by his style, but I hate to say it, probably for most For children with that style, it's a lot to stop them from sitting down. You can't be more like your sister. You go to the corner.

You're making a mess. You go to the principal to have that child invalidated. Every time they turn around that invalidation, the more the temperament, the more the possibility of them not having an environment where there is the possibility of secure attachment plus the possibility of traumatic chaos and neglect, that is one path to developing a narcissist, so if I can make sure I understand what you are basically saying it is even without matter temperament if you don't get your emotional needs met if you don't feel safe at home if you have a parent who abandons you a parent who is abused if you know someone with a mental illness and addiction, someone who is unpredictable and who you, when you were child, you don't feel safe or you don't feel like you're getting all those emotional needs taken care of and that's what leads to narcissism, but not always, in fact, I wouldn't say it's that vast.

Most of the time, many, many, many people grew up in situations like trauma, neglect, chaos abuse and do not become narcissistic; They usually become quite anxious adults with poor self-assessment who don't. I know their value and they are worth a whole other burden to carry, but narcissism, oh no, I was actually talking about me, dear, so yeah, that's all I am, you know, so it's a um, but in the end what we see is that it is still The problem is that these paths are not linear. I always say that narcissism is a story. We, the development of narcissism is a story we can tell backwards but never forwards, so I do think I have some clients who have gone through horrible beginnings.

Horrible childhood trauma physical abuse sexual abuse violence growing up in chaos to tell you that these are some of the most empathetic and loving human beings I have ever met would actually be missing the mark they are just solid people if anything they don't understand their value as if their damage was very internalized it's like I'm not good enough I'm not doing enough but there is so much goodness so much empathy that they have become incredible parents, all that, so that early chaos does not condemn anyone by any means, but it does establishes what are called adverse childhood experiences.

Definitely, if we have used it, definitely, if we look at this from a probability point of view, more negative results could arise. whether internalized self-dislike or externalized and that's more of what narcissism could potentially look like now there's a secondary path to narcissism, okay, and that secondary path is actually one that we should probably monitor quite a bit in the times modern, what is the overly spoiled child, the child who gets what he wants, money is spent lavishly on them, you are so cool, you are so smart, a study was done in Amsterdam. Now it will be interesting to see what happens when these children become adults.

He was studying the children, but what? He found this guy who he thinks is called Eddie Brummelman at the University of Amsterdam and what he discovered was that the kids who were told they were more special than other kids, those were the kids who were already showing entitlement and other kinds of signs. mild of narcissism, so it's not that you're telling your child that he's special, it's that you're more special than someone else, oh, that was something like that, that was the kind of moment where the penny drops, that He's very much what you might imagine from a more narcissistic parent. do my child is more special than other children my child deserves special treatment my child should play the whole game my child should understand this my child should understand that but you are looking at children who are no longer taught there are two critical aspects three critical things that I would say every child needs, okay, so there are three critical things: secure attachment, so explain secure adjustment.

Secure attachment occurs when a child has at least one primary caregiver who is constantly available and the child feels like they can call that caregiver when they need them, that, that, that secure attachment develops during the early years and we're talking about giving to light to two or three years, this is something you have to get, you have to block this early, okay, that securely attached child in those first experiments. done by John Bowlby and Mary Ainsworth in kind of seminal work in the field, what they discovered was that the child who had a secure attachment when mom left him in a strange situation that would be a preschool or a babysitter or something like that, the child they would whine a little like where are you going, but then they would calm down very quickly with the comfort of a caregiver and then when the parent came back to pick them up, the child would be delighted to see them in children who are more anxious, avoidant or insecure. attached, it would be almost difficult to calm him down when the moment the father returned and more importantly when the father left, it would be difficult to calm him down when the father left and when the father returned the child would actually leave. in absolutely like another crisis, almost like how could you leave me or they turn their head away from the father, you see where that secure attachment is.

The child would actually be happy to see the parent when he had a turn, he sees well, now that secure attachment is number one and that is created by consistency and availability in that early environment, he needs a parent to do that and to be honestly, it's a primary caregiver, it's anyone that child identifies as such. Number two is that children need to learn to calm down. themselves and they learn they need to learn to be disappointed, that's okay, and we won't let them do that, like sometimes you fail, sometimes you don't get the teacher you want, sometimes you run out of chocolate ice cream when you wake up and You know what Sometimes you lose, shots and stairs.

I remember saying "I'm going to win this game" and you have to say "Don't let them win. I'm not going to let them win, so I'm up." to the top of the shoots and the letters and I'm going to win and I say wow that felt good and when my daughter said that's not fair I said oh ho ho ho I won this game let's be present with me winning do you want to play again , sure we can do it again, but you have to learn to be present, that not all results are how you want them to be, that's number two, number three is empathy, you have to foster empathy in children and encourage. compassion that can be through books they read stories that they experience, of course, but especially at home, how do they learn that it is a model for them? they see parents empathizing or caregivers empathizing with each other they see the extended family empathizing with each other they see empathy in the classroom they see empathy in the world, and you can imagine a child who doesn't see any of that or that the parent is acting a very authoritative way like, oh, let's go to the front of the line, we're more important than these people or oh God, you know we're not sitting in that row, all these things that parents do that they consider harmless in an airport, in a soccer game, at a theme park, your kids are learning and their brain is just a burst of neurons and dendrites, and that's being filed under we're special, you know, the reason why this is so interesting for me is because I think that one of the challenges when you have a parent, a brother, a boss or someone that you are in a narcissistic relationship with is that you think that somehow everything is your fault if and when I find out about you that narcissists become in children mm-hmm it just opened this door for me to say oh wow so they didn't like choosing to be like that they're not doing this consciously, it is what it is, it's a matter of regulation, so it's the feeling that a person Narcissist never feels safe in the world, because she never feels safe, she is always on offense and defense simultaneously, right?

I'm going to win I'm going to dominate me Me and you're looking at me You're looking at me and then you get angry, you get angry, so that constant offensive defense that they play makes them very antagonistic unless things go exactly the way they want. What they want and where narcissistic people are deceptive is that if they feel safe,you find on the beach. I meet these people that I've never actually met. I find these people who have never encountered narcissism. They had two loving parents. They grew up in a happy home. They love all their brothers.

They met someone at university. They fell in love. They both got good jobs. I'm happy for them, I'm happy for them and those people like you talk to them about narcissism and I might be talking about something like, you know, something like they think I have a tinfoil hat, they really do and they do. I understand. Understand it because they have absolutely no scheme for that, but going back to the world of the authentic and the empathetic, which is also especially that of authentic people, it is rare for a group to separate itself, here is the problem with authenticity now and it is something that we lose and I think it really gets This is highlighted when we talk about narcissism, people talk about authenticity as if it were something easy, the hardest thing in the world is to be authentic, because to be authentic is to be unpopular, to be authentic is to open your own way even when others people are clucking, cackling, stigmatizing you and looking at you sideways, what are you doing, something that people don't do, that you know you're supposed to do, the kind of missionary position, follow the rules, the kind of life and authentic people say no, that's not what I am, that's not what I am.

Authentic people are very clear about their values, what they stand for and what matters to them, so I'm not saying that authentic people don't feel guilt, they will feel tremendous guilt. but they will also feel committed to the potential within themselves and to the people they care about, and to say that ultimately giving in to this person's abuse is not doing me any favors, honestly, it's not doing them any favors. to my children, it is not doing the people I love any favors. I worry about any favor and it's not really doing them any favors because it's reinforcing them in this unhealthy cycle and I don't want to be a part of this so we have to get away from the idea that authenticity is easy, authenticity is authentic people. .

I often have smaller social networks than other people because they've taken away all the dead weight, they've cleared out all the branches that are dead, like they're saying no, I'm not going to have people around me that are unhealthy and crippling, I mean. It's, it's a brave stance and it's not an easy stance and some people say that authentic people are selfish, they're cold, they're conceited, you know they're really going to paint them as, oh, who do you think you are? that you can do that and all the authentic person is doing is trying to set boundaries against unhealthy people, it's not easy to do because a lot of people feel like you have to leave, you have to put up with unhealthy people, that's what that we make families stay together and all that kind of stuff and to which I say no, I mean, why would we punish a person for their bad genetic luck again for the rest of their lives?

Is it normal for people to hear you and start to worry? I'm a narcissist because I'm also sitting here saying, "Oh my God," do I sound like that sometimes? when I'm frustrated. It's me? Now I'm starting to worry. personality, so here's the thing about all of us, we all and sometimes even every day have moments where we are not graceful, what we need to watch is how quickly and how authentically we make peace, so if you yell at Someone at work, catches that and inside you know very quickly say ah that was not good I am I take responsibility for that you are not responsible for that I was having a bad day but that is not your problem and that is why I ask you sorry for that when we do those things now no narcissistic person in the world is going to do that unless a publicist does it or and then you can say and then you can say or or um because they're trying to save face or they'll say my favorite the the sorry narcissist who is I'm sorry you feel that way that's how narcissists apologize I'm sorry you feel that way oh I say oh hell no the moment I say I hear I'm like this conversation is over and no I don't leave angry.

I'm usually very, you have to learn to nod, Mona Lisa smiles and says you know, I have to jump now, some people say that's passive-aggressive, well there's no way forward and if I'm not in the state In the mood for a fight you'll say you know, okay, you know, I have to jump, thanks again, and then close the conversation on whatever else needs to be done. Am I more likely to date a narcissist if I grew up in a home with a narcissistic caregiver, well, it certainly creates vulnerability for you because it almost normalizes some of it and also takes away some of it.

It robs the person of their sense of self and the fact that they even have the right to express their needs. well, that is a perfect trap because now if you are not expressing your needs, the narcissistic person you need will not meet them anyway, you can easily get trapped and repeat that same dance linked to the trauma of justifying this person's behavior by feeling that it's your fault. Actually, it sort of indoctrinates you to accept this behavior in a partner because it's familiar from childhood, it's familiar, and it also almost psychologically becomes a way of relating to the world.

In fact, I've worked with more than a few survivors who said, you know, I met a healthy person, and they were kind and empathetic and generous of spirit and they believed in me and I convinced myself that I was bored with them. Wow, that's so true like it's true that there are many like we all have a friend or brother, you're like that's a good person, okay? The person you're supposed to be with is right in front of you and I tell them what if you come from a narcissistic family system and you meet? Someone and I had boring isn't even the right word, you're not, I hate to say it, it's just that they don't turn you on, but you feel like it's not, it's not what you think love is supposed to be, it's just exciting.

But think about what your life was like as a child, it was a roller coaster, good days, bad days, I'm going to conquer them, today is the day, oh my God, who's coming home today, they have a bar of chocolate in their briefcase, for me, it's a good day. like that one has ups and downs and simple anticipation almost makes an adult relationship that is characterized by that relived roller coaster what you have combined with love, so when a Survivor tells me that they have met someone like me, I don't. I know it's not all this Zaza zoo.

I'm fine, this could be a keeper. Let us continue sadly. What I have witnessed Mel is that many people have had to go through the brutality of a narcissistic relationship and then having to let go of that and have closure if they had been able to hold space for someone who treated them with kindness and generosity, it breaks their heart. They think about what my life would have been like if this was the kind of person I had been with all the time, but it's almost as if their psyche couldn't accommodate that because no one teaches this in school, people learn about this after they've been hurt and you know what you just said that I think is really important, whatever that roller coaster was, that was your experience. of love because you were a child that's what you know and it makes a lot of sense to me so for those people who are listening we have to get this question a lot of times well first let me ask this so if you hear the first one. episode or you already know that you grew up in a home with a narcissistic parent, what are the few things that you should do for your own healing, so that you can be open and interested in someone who is healthy for you even though you already have ?

I have never been with someone who is number one is being willing to see it clearly this is painful it becomes so painful to realize oh my god my father is yes he is narcissistic my father is antagonistic I have a father who has no empathy because he is almost like leaning towards this kind of thing, says a lot of people, who said they were narcissistic parents. I felt a certain shame about my childhood, like I knew something wasn't quite right here, but I didn't know what it was. No child wants to be the strange child, no one wants to be the child who has fighting parents or something is not quite right in their home and I think with people who grew up in those types of homes it was kind of false to the world. , like maybe your friends.

I'd come over and your parents were really lovely, but then when everyone was out of the house, your parents were furious. That kind of inconsistency really made people feel what's wrong with me, so it really becomes a do. it's about therapy or digging deeper into being willing to look at these patterns with wide eyes, no matter how painful, just because you come from a narcissistic family system doesn't mean you're damaged. is not an accusation towards you that unfortunately many people feel and then to take a hard look at where this has kidnapped you, where it has stolen your autonomy, your identity, how you are, do the hard work, some of that can even be done, yes. not just through therapy, through journaling, just being aware of where it happened, how you talk to yourself, how you apologize for things you didn't even do wrong, how you constantly put yourself down, turning yourself on like, Oh me.

I don't know what I'm talking about don't listen to me how many people do that reflexively that's a throwback to that childhood it's about getting your house in order before you start dating and basically replicating those cycles unfortunately that's not what people think teaches how to do it and many people in their twenties don't have the time, will or money to go to therapy. Yes, are there personality types that are more likely to like a narcissist coming into their lives? Well I think. that there is definitely a person who comes from a narcissistic childhood there is a vulnerability there listen I am going to say this malice to do this almost like an easy question for everyone to answer is there is not a person out there who is not and I will tell you why , because at first glance narcissistic people are charming, charismatic, curious, self-confident, they are comforting, they even feel like they can take care of things, so if these people came to you on the first day yelling and cursing at you. you probably won't be a date either, there's a whole love bombing phenomenon out there, well we'll get to love bombing in a minute but how the hell are you supposed to spot one then if you're dating because this is where it comes up trauma?

Bond becomes a problem, so with trauma Bond results not only in that alternation between good and bad, but you justify the bad days well, so oh dad just had a bad day at work. Mmm, mom is so tired, we're all putting pressure on her and then you internalize that guilt, dad had a bad day at work, it has to be good, you know, mom, mom is so tired, I have to help, like they're trying to do it. , but they just justify, justify, think of everyone in the narcissistic relationship with which he had a tough childhood has a competitive job the agreements have not been finalized as they want they only want the best for us I mean, I mean, the justifications They go on forever, but justifications keep the toxic dynamic in place and that's another central pillar of that trauma Bond, so justify, justify, justify, and that's why everyone is vulnerable because you know someone and you're attracted to them. and it's charming and interesting or whatever it is that attracts you to that person and it stays that way four weeks six weeks eight weeks three months sometimes now that you're you're falling in love with this person now these things start gurgling those those proverbial red flags and what?

What are the real red flags of a pervert when you're dating? Well red flags can be things like um getting snappy when you give them a little bit of feedback um being very entitled when you go to a restaurant with them so look at how they treat you then look at how they treat the waiters look at how they treat anyone how they talk from other people um disdainful contempt how How do you get along with your friends? It could be that one of your friends, the only friend who might have brought someone to their attention, could be the only friend they say you know.

I don't think that friend is good for you. So those things will come up, but this is what Mel was talking to someone about recently on my own podcast and in her situation she didn't have six years of marriage or a red flag. I'm going to get people to listen to my podcast. Listen to what happened when the red flags piled up but they've called six years. She says: I'm being honest with you and people who knew me would say the same. There were no red flags, so everyone I'm saying this for. a reason why, like why many people blame themselves, they will say that one day, whether it be a year every two years or ten years later, narcissism appears, there must have been warning signs.

I did not see them. I must be. an idiot, this is my fault, this is my fault for not seeing the red flags and I really want to tell everyone, although some of them may be out there, some of them may be humming at such a low level that you don't notice them. or they remember so much of what you grew up with, they say ohGosh, this is nothing compared to my mother's kind of thing. But in the vast majority of cases, the red flags were there and it's a combination of: either people didn't know there were red flags, the People justified them or people immediately blame themselves like they didn't criticize their sweater, you know? although it was not a criticism, they quickly justify it, but now everyone is vulnerable.

Some people are more vulnerable. Certainly people who grew up with narcissistic parents are parents. They are vulnerable. that can often result in self-devaluation and other phenomena that would make a person less like you less likely to point out red flags. People who, um, this is going to be surprising when people come from very happy families with two loving parents and just happy, happy, those people are vulnerable because they can't even believe this exists, so when there's a red flag, They often think that we just love each other through these things, you can't love anyone through a red flag, so they might resort to the fact that there are people who are going through periods of transition, so, in the rebound, people sometimes encounter narcissistic people when a person moves to a new city has moved to a new job has experienced a major loss these There are people who are already more vulnerable and the idea that someone knew is coming to your life, especially let's say a new city.

Oh wow, this is great. I'm meeting someone and you go into a romantic comedy mentality instead of this moving. kind of fast that kind of thing people who are in a hurry are vulnerable people like I have my biological clock ticking all my friends are getting married that kind of thing those are people who can be vulnerable saying okay I'm just going to have to settle down here because I really want to be a father and this is what is in front of me right now and I can't tell you how many people have gotten caught up in narcissistic relationships because they felt like a time clock was ticking around marriage and they settled down. having a kid, they really felt like if I don't do this I don't want to end up like my friend who ended up never meeting anyone and regrets telling you one thing they regret, they probably know exactly who that person is And so all of these other types of vulnerability factors that a person can bring can increase vulnerability beyond what we all have and I think the idea that all of us, that someone is not vulnerable, I mean again the unicorns that exist. people who really get like they almost see it right away they listen I do this this is what I do I'm still still playing people still come into my life I'm getting better at it but to get better at it Mel, I almost had to become.

Sometimes I feel like there's a part of me that's become a little closed off, so there's one or two red flags that for you are just non-negotiable, like the minute you see that one, you say no, because when you talk of being shut down because you're extremely warm, extremely smart, and extremely generous, so I'm wondering because I think what's scary about hearing all this is that when you wake up and you're three months into something or three years into something and all the bonuses are there and the lease is signed and you're married or you have kids or now you've moved in together or now you have all the chemicals flooding your body because you're falling in love and you start hearing these red flags, you know, I would never have had the strength, I think when I think that most people like you know what I mean, they say oh, okay, it's time to end this, no, no, no, most people don't. t and that's important for people to hear that because a lot of people feel stupid why didn't I listen to the warning signs I knew it on my wedding day I knew it I felt it because when you know it again these stories are so It's easy to say it the other way around, but at the time it would have felt catastrophic and, in a way, this was the only way to really learn the lesson.

You know it's unfortunate and you know the problem becomes like when I meet someone who's a little too charming A little too charismatic I turn off well I wonder why what is this and people say you're the only person I've ever met who Stay away from charismatic people, literally, I've been in meetings and one person is that person and people must think I have some kind of intestinal disorder because I have to run to the bathroom so many times at a social event, I would say I have to run to the bathroom and ask what did he eat?

You know, it's interesting that you say that because I recently had a couple of things happen both in business and in life that were shocking betrayals, stolen lies of all those types of things that just floored me and when I look back on my life there are a very pronounced pattern where I'm drawn like a moth to a flame to very charismatic, fun rebellious people and I get sucked in and then I realized once I'm kind of in the Inner Circle, oh my gosh, this person is unpredictable, this person likes trash, people leaving the room, this person has major mood swings and then I literally go into a mode of just tying myself in knots so as not to upset the person, correct that and that's actually a traumatic response, yeah, squirming to not upset the person or even like you know, oh, you're so cool, like the fawning response, these are classic dramas and it took a couple of really painful experiences back to back.

Making me look back was almost like life hitting me with a sledgehammer, yeah, and that, and I think that's what it is too. You know I both worked in the media and you in a much deeper way than I did, but I. I have to say that over the many years that I have done this, what I have always seen was lovely, charismatic, great people who never ever kept their promises and sometimes almost to my fine, my very real financial and all. that and what I thought and that happened in the Academy that happened in other areas of my life and so I think for me those things have correlated in my mind a great talker, a great promise, a great great, a great great, all that big talk never comes to fruition and I This hurt me, so when we talk about classical conditioning it's like Pavlov's dogs were right, this dog raises when they heard the bell for me, it's Charming Charisma means you're about to , you are about to betray. me or you're just full of bullshit and stuff, but I had to suffer a lot of damage to learn that lesson and when I connected the dots with my own childhood and my own experience, as I saw, I could see how I got there.

I played and like I said, it seems a little closed now. I wouldn't be surprised if people thought that about me and I think this is so for all of us to be more resistant to the narcissist, we need people. around us that will have our back and where I'm really blessed, at least professionally, is a team that calls BS, they read emails like no, no, yes, no, yes, and then I'll dig deeper and sometimes I'm like, yeah. sure and they'll say listen, it's your concert, you call it, but we don't love this, right, and it's in that sense that I heard that right, in fact, the other night I had an experience that was really uncomfortable and it was and I thought it was like that of uncomfortable and I remember my team like that sucked and I thought, oh, and I, and it was so that if you have people around you who can really be authentic and shout nonsense, that's also another way that you become more resistant to this nonsense. instead of having brothers who come together as healthy brothers, yes, healthy brothers, not brothers who throw you under the bus, right, and so on, and I think because the problem is that a lot of people are surrounded by enablers, oh.

Come on, he seems like a good guy and he's cute and he's from the same place and he's you're my keys invalidating you I don't care how no one is that cute uh-huh uh-huh I'm sorry like a mom Now I'm thinking about my daughters, but what Is it love bombing? So love bombing is the kind of thing where charm and charisma become behavior, it is the initial phase of any narcissistic relationship, we tend to use only this. term for romantic relationships can happen in friendships, in the workplace, you name it, anywhere, it's that intense and overwhelming.

I'll call it courtship, where a person is almost obsessively fascinated with you, he is a person who is trying to win you over. The classic type of trophy love bombing is on your first day you go to the best restaurant in town, then they get tickets to the concert that no one can get and on your third date you fly to Paris and dance until 6am. and on the beach and and it's very exciting and they do a treasure hunt for you and they give you gifts and every Friday there are a dozen roses waiting for you that's a love bombing it's a fairy tale it's larger than life but I think so we just use that trope it's complicated yeah, it's just because it's too simple to afford to do that.

I think it's good, how do you do that with a workers' budget? I'll tell you how, tell me how you take people to whatever is considered the best restaurant, you know? to your budget like the person still thinks it's cool, they'll pack up, they'll say, let's go for a drive to wherever is the best place to go on the trip. I'm going to show you the coolest view you've ever seen. in your life they will buy things, it may be like Batirte I'm showing you good night princess, good morning I can't start the day without thinking about you and then there will be subtle things like taking a photo where you are I just want to see where you are for me that's it this person harassing you why they need to know where you are of course I'm the anti-romance no don't meet me on Valentine's Day that's fine, not like, but not on the second date, right, but it's a lot, it's an intense contact, but the love bombing just doesn't seem like that love bombing can get very intense, almost over sharing very early in the game, like they are.

So we're exposing this really deep story, true or false, about their past, their childhood, what they feel, and for some people, that's the game because they'll say, "Oh my God, this person shares so much, they're so vulnerable, and now you're in." because they have shared a lot of love. The bombing can be too long together. Our first date lasted two weeks. Do you have a job? What kind of first date lasted two weeks? They're like I knew right away, it was like a trauma Bond, you know, like a man in a minute, people say I know, that sounds really cold, but it's really not, it's these kind of people who could say like when I first saw them, I was very attracted to them, but not like I knew it right away, but on the first two week date there is an intense intention for them to spend so much time together I canceled all my plans to be together. with them.

You know, that's when their lease came. up and yes, we had only been together a month but we decided to move in together quickly, quickly, quickly, quickly, quickly, solidity is also part of love bombing, it is an intensity, it is what I call an intense indoctrination into another person, They are conquering you. When you're bombarded with love, you're so distracted by the sharing, by the obsession, by the texts, by the emails, by the gifts, by the speed, that you don't notice the red flags, so what do you do if you're bombarded with love? you are a friend? because I think a lot of times you know if you see this happening to a friend or you, as an outside friend, you start to raise red flags and say something to your friend, you know, maybe they should take it a little easier. either you know he, I heard he wasn't that good to his last girlfriend or you just tried, how do you approach it if you're the friend?

Don't drop a penny to the other person because the moment you drop it. I heard they weren't good to the other person. He is moving very fast. This is something we learned from doing treatment with substance abusers. Don't force them to defend his behavior and don't force him to defend the narcissist at the time. Say he wasn't good to his ex-partner, yes, did you ever meet his ex-partner and now you are they defending? Never do that. You have to find the back door. So how do you find a loved one's back? you're talking about your new relationship, how you feel, how it's going and they'll tell you the story, wow, there's a lot going on, how you feel about it, they're more likely to say yes, you know it's very similar I'm trying to move on because I always felt like I don't deserve a fairy tale.

Now I'm

understanding

the fairy tale and I say, but it also feels very boring about it. You're trying to get them to talk. without getting them to defend the narcissistic person, listen, I'm basically trying to train people to use therapy tricks here, but that's really what it is because I think we're very quick to say I don't like them on the first try. What they are going to do is defend them. You have to get them to talk about the relationship so they start saying things like, "Oh, I don't know anything about this. What do you mean you don't know anything about this?" and leave them.

Speak up and say well, if you feel that way, do you think there is? Know? You feel good? Maybe I do not know. Take a step back like you. You can do that because it seems like this person cares a lot about you and I want toI mean, that's a little manipulative, but if you're trying to say something, yes, try all the tricks, but what you're trying to do is give them permission, maybe slow down to back up or say you want to move. right away and tell them you love having your own house, so how do you feel about it?

Get them to talk about what they value, which is having their own place versus what kind of fool wants to move into your apartment in a month. right, I got it, it's very, very clear, so if you're noticing this, get them talking. Open questions, don't say anything that will make them defend themselves. It's very interesting. Now I can look back and see, as a parent, several mistakes I made. because as parents too, Mel, we are very quick to want to protect our children. I think nowhere else do we see that reactive as bad, bad, bad and it's you know, it's almost like you can feel the squeeze in yourself by saying well, talk. talks to me about this friendship and inside you will leave I hope you never talk to them again, you know, but you can't because everyone, when they are ambivalent about something and we posit what they are ambivalent about as bad, their reactive response is to defend that because they are ambivalent?

It makes a lot of sense. You know, it seems like you can't talk about narcissism, especially in the dating world, without the term gaslighting coming up. Can you explain me? what gaslighting is right, so gaslighting is a form of emotional abuse, it's a form of manipulation, but it's a doubting of reality followed by making someone feel wronged, so it's not just lying, it's not like I don't would have moved the checkbook, that's a lie, okay, they moved the checkbook, it's not like it never happened, that's a lie, he did it right, so even the first part of gaslighting is a lie, it's the second part that makes it gaslighting, which is what you say blue. use a simple example you moved the checkbook I always keep it in this drawer like no I didn't move the checkbook are you sure you didn't always move the checklist in this drawer do you know what your memory has been lately?

It's not the first time and you know you've been so distracted and stressed that it's actually affecting our relationship. Have you thought about talking to someone now? It has become a conversation about how you have memory problems and are distracted and stressed. It doesn't matter, but they actually moved the checkbook, you know, I had this situation. I can't really go into details, but dealing with a narcissist in a work relationship where I knew something was going on, I would say blah blah about the problem and they would lie and then point it out to me, but you've been so busy, right.

I handled it correctly over and over again and then the closer I got to the truth, the more I noticed this rage like this, it's in narcissists. that now I see what I've dealt with whether it's in work or in life or in relationships or friendships, there's always this moment that I call that you know on Bravo uh new Real Housewives of New Jersey that famous clip or that woman turns the tables table yeah, yeah, rage, yeah, it's rage, yeah, that's a big narcissistic moment, so narcissistic, narcissistic rage is something that was absolutely a thing, it's because it's a rage that's triggered by your reactive skin sensitivity. fine, something that does not require a table. being flipped I don't know if anything anyone could tell you would be a table flipped, right?

I mean, I don't know if I killed your best friend. I guess I could flip a table at that point, but other than that, no flipping the table and coming up with these very dramatic, unregulated gestures and then they'll tone it down or downplay it or give you a pseudo-apology and then just do it again, yeah wow are there other forms of gaslighting? That might surprise us. I know yes, there is such a thing as lying and then giving it back to you, but are there other forms of gaslighting that surprise people you know in some way?

There are other things that are gaslit like a um, like the silent treatment in a way. it can have a gaslit feeling because you start to feel like you're losing your mind, you know, so that's a great example of kind of gaslit behavior on some level. Denial can have a feeling of gaslighting and again, gaslighting in its purest form is the denial of reality and then telling you that there's something wrong with you, so that's the sequence, but it's a um but it can. take these other types of you know, these other types of um like can't you take a joke? it's a great example of gaslighting you're too sensitive yeah you're too sensible that you can't take a joke it's a great example of being called names okay you have a reaction to that like that's not okay it was in front of you. a group of people, what were they thinking?

I didn't mean it, although I didn't mean, can't they take a joke? So now you're this kind of hypersensitized, hyperreactive person who can't take something that was supposedly a joke despite the tone or something, you can't take a joke? And again, I mean, I think comics do this all the time, I mean, I don't know, being a comedian, relationships are probably difficult because everything's probably a joke, right? So, um, but it's uh, that's another great example, something that you don't realize, it's gaslighting, okay, now we're at the point in the podcast where I feel like we've popped the popcorn and everyone who They hear they say, oh God, and like me.

I'm spotting narcissists everywhere, so let's start talking about what you do, what you do, um and let's start with the example of how do you break up with a narcissist, not all narcissistic relationships end, keep this in mind. I think you should listen. Yes I run the world, sure, but I don't run the world and I also know that some people say: you know what, I'm not going to divorce my parents, there are cultural reasons, reasons from other people in my family that I care about, um, my own sense of duty and responsibility of obligation. However, now I see them clearly and I will interact with them differently, but I will not end all contact with them.

Okay, there are a lot of people, I would say 50. of people in narcissistic marriages stay and long-term committed relationships stay and I understand that and I don't think there should be pressure to leave because when there is that pressure to leave what I see is a missed opportunity to help that person heal. and grow even while they stay in it, so when the person heals and grows, you are talking about the person who is in the relationship because, as we learned early on, you can't change the climate in Chicago and you can't change us. not to change narcissists and it is important for everyone to hear this because you are listening to the world's leading expert on this, who has had clinical practice, who has been a sought-after academic on this topic, who has been in clinical practice. environments that treat narcissists who have come looking for help because it now works for them because the board of directors is preparing to fire them or their spouse is ready to divorce them or they really feel like everyone is out to get them.

I mean, remember that narcissistic people are very victimized if things don't go their way, everyone comes out after me. I have a target on my back, that in witch hunts that kind of thing, how come everyone comes out after me? How is life so unfair? to me, yes, yes, and if you are in a clinical setting and you are working with a narcissist who is motivated to try to change, how much can they change? It's a great question, so I've worked with many clients like this. The best we can hope for is a little more responsibility.

They will still have anger, but they may realize and apologize a little more. They will still roll their eyes when they don't want to listen to someone. but maybe they do it less. They will huff and puff when they are made to wait in line at the airport, but they won't yell at the gate agent. You understand that they can run through some things that you can get. They will run through some things, but they will never be marathoners, they will still drop the ball a lot. I've worked with people who once learned what it meant to stop being that way, what it meant to listen empathetically to people. be present have space for them be responsible for their bad behavior um uh don't get angry with people or share your feelings One person told me what this is about and I said, yes, Visa, I want to stop therapy for a while and in that period time he divorced his wife and broke up with his lover and I said oh and he said: you know what? and this is what he said: I don't want to hurt these people, I really don't want to hurt them. people, but I can see that they are being hurt and you have clearly pointed out that I am hurting them because I would say that is what I mean, how do you think they felt?

We did a lot of what's called mentalization work, forcing the person to think about how you think that other person feels and in a therapy room, if they yell at me, I'd say goodbye, you're not my client anymore, so they, um. , they said, I don't want to hurt them. but I don't want to listen to them I'm not interested in their nonsense I'm not interested in their feelings like I could do it for 10 minutes but this hours thing I don't want to live in my own place and I don't miss sex so I found someone and I pay him every Two weeks and she is doing well.

I don't want her to wake up next to me and sound like a real peach, she's fine, but do you know what she would say? Peach, I wasn't mad at him. He, his ex-wife can now go and find out he's no longer Chase. Maybe he's still wondering if you're the ex-wife because I think one of the other things I've learned from you is that the damage done by a narcissist has to go do his job now, I mean, and what is that job, that work is to learn about narcissism, to understand that it is not your fault, it is almost as if a person feels less frustrated by their self.

It breaks down if you know how his car works, so now you're like, oh, this mechanic is taking advantage of me. I'm like, no, now you know how to change your own carburetor, like I'm teaching you how to fix this, okay? and the solution is not in them, it is in you because remember you are not changing the climate in Chicago by changing the climate in Chicago and ultimately the person you treated would do these very intense visualization exercises to try to understand empathy, The only thing that happened is that he acquired the knowledge to go.

I'm not going to do that and here's the thing though for me it's a form of empathy because I'll tell them this instead of saying well she needs to step up, she needs to meet me where I'm in it like I don't want to hurt anyone. these people and I'm going to keep hurting them because if you think I'm going to sit here and listen to their nonsense without rolling my eyes, you're high, so Dr. Romney, you've really helped me because there were some important takeaways that I learned from you, One of them is that you are not changing the climate in Chicago, you are not changing the behavior of a narcissist or the brain of a second period. that narcissists are formed during childhood, they are not necessarily born that way, they are definitely not born that way, the third thing is that if it really is someone with a narcissistic personality, they don't even know they are doing it.

It's not like it's a conscious behavior, it's so ingrained in how they behave that it's like a correct reaction to the situation, but this requires a major twist that I need to give it because people say okay if they don't know. so I can't get mad at them, to which I reply yes, you can. We recently had a YouTube video. I think it will be out or out soon. Basically, several things can be true and nowhere is that more true than with a narcissist. relationship this person had a difficult childhood Yes, this person invalidates me every day okay, yes, we have children together, yes, they are not going to stop doing this, yes, you see what I'm saying, yes, all those things can be true at the same time.

What is the most important truth for someone listening right now who realizes, my God, I'm in a relationship with a narcissist? What is the most important truth that you want that person to start thinking about and accepting? This is not your fault. You're not responsible for someone else's behavior, you're not, I mean, on some level, maybe we could say that about our children's behavior to a certain extent, but even if there's a point where that goes away, you're not responsible. Well, they are reacting to me, no, they are reacting and there are other ways to react so that they can, they could calmly tell you: I don't like the way you talk to me and I need a minute to teach them those things, they can go to therapy. and learn that but they feel entitled to their reactions they feel entitled to their anger this is how I react this is who I am and that's the other thing you'll hear authentically this is who I am what I want people to say to so maybe that doesn't work for you and listen Mal, there are a lot of people who wait until their youngest child turns 18 and that's the day they file for divorce.

Yeah, wow, you know another thing I learned from you today that was just a turning point was when you said that you're trained to believe that doing something a narcissist doesn't like is wrong, that's where the guilt comes from. That's it. what comes from you learning guilt because someone made you believe that it is wrongdisappoint them right right and because you learn that you learn that when you're a child, that's one of those things that you get indoctrinated in childhood and then you carry it out. Any relationship where it feels like there is a power difference or that someone is more dominant and that is why people like this will repeat these cycles at work, they will repeat them in intimate relationships with your boss is narcissistic, like they are constantly getting mad at you, you know.

They are unpredictable, they take credit for everything, how do you handle that situation? this is what workplace situations are interesting because you know I understand that people need jobs and sometimes people say I'm never going to find a job that pays I'm that close to what I'm making and I'm my main breadwinner in my situation, then we go back to that radical acceptance that you are in a job where you are going to be infuriated in the workplace. I tell people that you have to document all of this. You have to make sure you don't attend meetings alone.

You save every email. You save every voicemail. You save every text message. Because if you ever need to get involved in some type of litigation or human resources. We're going to need to make it impossible to push issues in the workplace without that, and yet workplace harassment isn't illegal, it's not, so it's really, really hard to do that much with it. When you say radical acceptance, what exactly does that mean? I mean, you're in a situation because I saw this early in my career. I was a lawyer, first I was a public defender and then when we moved to Boston I worked at a big law firm and the amount of shouting that came out of Partners. offices, yeah, and the shaming and stuff like that, the degrading way people were talked to and yelled at in the hallway and tolerated because that guy brought in a lot of money, is what I call the Golden Goose phenomenon and that's why in a workplace if you recognize the Golden Goose phenomenon as a play, meaning there is no way for people higher up in leadership to remove this furious one because they are making too much money, no one kills the Golden Goose , then you have to wonder where I fit in.

By this I mean that in most cases, Mel, I had to say that the only part is the only good ending, either if you are lucky and this is luck when that narcissistic boss or manager person is eliminated, usually because the Institutional organizational environments kinda suck. head down like there's a culture that yes, that's very unlikely to happen, but sometimes people get lucky in their One Division, that happens, but if that doesn't happen, most people eventually need to leave, Yes, it can be a great career change, people will do it. I'll say I'm out, I can't work like this.

Some people might change what they do. They'll say, "You know what I'm not going to win." shingles and I'm going to open a small practice there are too many companies and jobs out there to tolerate I agree I agree and in fact, it's taking me years off in the workplace this type of antagonism in the workplace is a type The only stress that has actually been found to be quite associated with physical health problems and I think a lot of that is because, for some reason, narcissistic abuse in the workplace keeps people up at night and I think which is because you come home, you're exhausted, and then you wake up in the middle of the night. night and you say: I can't, what am I?

You know, I'm going to get in trouble tomorrow, ruminate, ruminate, ruminate, ruminate and it goes on day after day after day. I mean, these are bosses who have no problem calling out, you know, interrupting a person. on their vacation saying come here now and um you have to clean up their mistakes like you said they take credit for your work they Gaslight um these are scary environments it's very triangulated where some people try to get along with the narcissistic person's side I mean, it's a mess, it's a mess and I've never seen anyone pull it off successfully, you'll even see it in some of the higher profile Metoo narcissism scandals that we've seen, people are like they just want to work on a movie. "That gets me an Oscar and that's going to help my career, but you know what you have to live with the moral damage for the rest of your life that you were part of that machine and you're not going to change the climate in Chicago." You're not going to change the climate in Chicago and you're also going to have to live with this blood on your hands, which is an act on a different level than people in work environments sometimes saying, "This is what I worked on, right?" "What does that do?" do me so I want to end with some tools that people can use so one that you talk about every time I share it obviously I give you credit because people love this and it's gray rock yeah it's a rock cool, you know.

I can't even take credit because gray rolling is something that has been around for a long time and gray rolling is a response to the constant bullying that happens in a narcissistic relationship. Narcissistic people love to fight because it makes you look crazy, right? If you're foaming now, you're furious like them and they say, oh you need to calm down, that's also a way of turning on the gas, they get on your nerves and then they look at you like you're you. who's unhinged, so the way to break down that harassment somehow is to just completely disconnect in the most absolute way, you're not going to have any contact, but you're saying yes, no, it's okay, I didn't know, sure, now let me ask you a question about this because in our family someone has had a situation where there was an young people chimed in, oh well hey someone did that and you know it was ruled out because he's drunk because he's this or because he's upset or because I'm the ex or because I'm dating someone new and you know we're talking 75 texts over the course of One night, pick up your phone, why not?

I know you are ignoring, yes that is abuse, so when it comes to that you don't respond at all because they are not looking for the answer, yes. Aren't they seeking attention now? You can see in a situation like this with the gray swinging like you, you're like, okay, I'm not going to respond to this kind of thing, the behavior is going to escalate for a while and that escalation scares people. gray and gray rocking is if you're going to do gray rock like in Pathway towards an exit to what is ultimately called contactless, which is a really very strict characteristic that a lot of people can't follow because their families are. they have to parent all that stuff, you know, whatever maybe no contact is when people do it, they say this is great, I'll never have to do with them again, but it's not always possible, so than the gray swaying.

It will initially anger the narcissistic person if you can White Knuckle for long enough, how long depends on the person, this is a great excellent example for those of you who are in a contentious divorce, for those of you who are dealing with custody issues of the children and so you have to negotiate the divorce deliveries or the x, so pay attention to this because you are right, if you ignore them, they explode because they want your attention and now they are going to escalate it to try to get it. Now, this is where a friend and colleague of mine develops something called Yellow Rock.

Tina Swithin, who does incredible work in the contentious narcissistic divorce space, came up with a Yellow Rock and the idea of ​​Yellow Rock is not so much yes. no, it's like you're almost as boring, but it's like, sure, oh, okay, yeah, great, there's emotion, there's melodies, it could even be like oh, you went there, oh, did you like that, oh, That's that new grocery store, right, that you're not talking about? anything but Yellow Rock isn't that big of a deal now in your obsessive texting example, that's a different situation because it's a case where you just don't respond properly and keep it all in and if it keeps going like this you might even need to to get law enforcement involved we got Chris my husband involved yes he texted saying we will get law enforcement involved yes demand it so it worked yes it works in many cases but in some cases it's not like that and it's actually a threshold of the number of communications that have to occur to qualify to involve the authorities, you know, so it can't be 10 or 20, I mean, it's such a large number that they say, oh , so to me, being completely traumatized is the only reason law enforcement will respond and it's true that those bars are set in a way where it's difficult to intervene, but in normal situations where there are many tries, where were you on Saturday night?

What were you doing? Oh, friend. coming and saying oh yeah everything's fine, like you, it's a big step for things like that, but kids seeing their parents swinging gray is actually quite traumatizing, that emotionless robotic feeling is unsettling for kids, it can be disturbing in the workplace, so with yellow swing I always tell people to have a list of inert, harmless topics to talk about about the weather, the freeway will be closed on Friday, it's um, you know, can you believe that There's only one month left until this holiday, like you? themes in your back pocket and then there can be a lot of that and once they start baiting, the next technique I recommend people use after gray or yellow rolling is: I tell them don't go deep and don't go deep means don't don't defend don't interact don't explain don't personalize oh that was an acronym for everyone yeah deep don't defend don't explain don't interact interact don't personalize what is don't personalize me so can you give me?

Give us an example, so don't do it, so a person comes up to you saying, "Oh, great, yeah, I can see, oh, what is this one of your loser friends who has one of his stupid fundraisers for a more of their causes?", like uh, yeah, your friend is like a loser idiot, so sure, yeah, uh-huh, well, let's, let's give this person more money. You know, I don't even know why you're friends with these people. Is the noise they make trying to isolate you that pathetic? you don't stand up for your friends you don't say oh she means so well she's raised so much money for this community you don't explain what the charity does you don't get involved in the back and forth and you don't do it's about you this has nothing to do with you that has to do with their safety their temperature their tantrum their insecurity they are being provoked and you and you you oh this is where it's hard people say I told Mary I was going, I replied, I'm going, do you say I'm sorry?

Why what did you do wrong? Because I also caught the condition. I don't know if, girl, if I could set up an app that could identify me and I was surprised that every time a person says sorry, they get a little shock through their watch or that's the worst thing you can say to a narcissist. Sorry, no, that's the worst thing you can say to yourself. Why do you apologize? We're back in the guild because I've been positioned to believe because if I do something that makes you angry or disappoints you or isn't what you want, I'm bad, that's you, that's yours.

I work because I'm going to Mary's fundraiser. I'm going to marry people who raise funds. Why should I say I'm sorry? I confirmed four weeks ago. I'm not going to go into Mary's character assassination because you feel threatened. I'm nothing like that. It's just that I confirmed my attendance a month ago. I'm planning to go. I'll leave at seven. Made. You do it with a smile on your face. I say to you. I sit here and think why the hell would you hold on? that in your life maybe the good days you know what I mean maybe and I say listen I make my own money and I'll give it to whoever I want are the good days and the bad days because you actually had a It was a really dinner nice Saturday night and today they had a bad day and they're stressed and they had a lot of childhood and relationships are difficult and everything is compromised and they don't really mean it and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. so if you could get into the multiple truths, oh yes, there are multiple positions.

I'm married to a person who is... yeah, I was just going to say deeply insecure and reactive, which is code for us, see, it's the only neat word that gets to that, but I'm married to a deeply insecure person. He's furious, he's the one I'm married to and I say that phrase out loud, it's all related to a concept called cognitive dissonance, we don't like it when incompatible things happen. that's true so to break the tension we justify that's true so it's like the truth that the things that are true are that I'm married to someone who is an insecure jerk because of childhood drama whatever and and and he gets angry.

I also have children with this. Person. I also don't want to go through the nightmare of divorcing this person. I'm going to work on my own stuff to have that cognitive psychological dissonance so I can figure out my own stuff, but you'll see after you do everything. that you know how people feel, they feel sad, they say this is my life, yeah, because once you actually wake up and do the work, we want you to go to therapy so thatBe more confident and self-aware that you actually don't. He deserves this because this is not your fault the weather in Chicago is something you can't change oh sneaky I like that type of person it's about therapy it's always about finding those back doors and you can't get in the front door that's what we do I learned that on the first day of therapy, yeah, that's amazing, you're so smart, you're so smart, so a takeaway or a cup, what takeaway do you want?

People really like talking to someone who just received a wake-up call because so do we. I learned that if you are truly someone who has a narcissistic personality, you are thinking that none of this applies to you, but if you are listening and you are starting to think about the people in your life, whether at work, in your friendships or in your brothers. or the person you're in a relationship with or your parents or grandparents, what are some of the key takeaways that you hope people have gotten from this doctor? You are not to blame for someone else's personality.

You can't change it. you have the right to an independent and autonomous life separate from other people opinions feelings needs um and above all I want people to know that there are many people who listen to this and say well, I have to go, I have to leave this relationship and some people do they end the contact or do they actually stop contact with a family member or even a parent? They can end a romantic relationship. They may begin to doubt their own marriage. They may even consider leaving a job or whatever, but then they start saying, "I want to." come back but I miss the person but I'm doubting it but we're going to get back together but I showed up at the family wedding anyway what I tell people is that this isn't all or nothing and they'll take you back because there is no way out of a trauma bond a traumatic bond is something that you feel some people will say the idea of ​​not talking to my mom anymore or stop being this marriage I feel sick like I can't do this, literally I feel sick because inside, inside of me, so it's a real physical feeling and it's

understanding

that these incompatibilities make us uncomfortable, they hold us back, it's up to me to keep telling people that this is not this, this is not going to change and that's how it is.

It's not your fault and it's all internal to them and that's what the device looks like, but even on those days when you feel sad because there is a landscape characterized by pain, so this was my childhood. I never had a real childhood. I never let my dreams take off. I got into a shitty marriage. I may never have a normal adult relationship. I ruined my children. This is a real pain. There are no smooth pedaling. You can't do it again with these things. For people, some of these negative emotions resonate throughout life and it's not me.

I wish I could sit here and say something fluffy like and one day you'll never think about this again. What I want to tell people is that you're going to learn to coexist with that pain and little by little you're going to find your voice and it's almost like you have a really serious accident or injury every once in a while, even if you could do complete your physical therapy and heal from time to time. You're going to step on that leg the wrong way, you say "ouch" and they remind you that not everything goes away, you start to learn the solutions and you understand that there will be good days and bad days. because I think setting too sunny a path for healing can make people who feel like they are not healing fast enough feel ashamed and therefore they can't even heal well, there is no healing, this will take all the time that is necessary.

There will be good days and bad days, but if you are willing to give yourself permission to come back to yourself and reality, there is actually a path forward and survivors of narcissistic abuse often do amazing things, write, create amazing things. there's creativity and it's almost like a WTF of all this, okay, you know, at this point, why not, like I survived this mess, why not, and they're going to have a lot of fun, they're going to write blogs, they're going to self-publish books. , they will start businesses, they will go back to school. I remember one woman I worked with, she's like she went back to school.

She was 75 when I graduated, but I finally finished college after being told she was stupid. for 50 years and she says, "I'm not going to work, but I did it," and the pride she felt. Survivor stories are notable, they are small, they are big. It's the person that my favorite was the person that said she, she, she. and that she is an incredible cook and a malignant narcissistic marriage. Many, many years she baked her favorite cake and gave it to the homeless people in her neighborhood and she said, "eat this because I've never had this kind of cake and they loved it." so you know, some people actually said that I actually cooked her favorite food and threw it in the trash.

Some people don't like throwing away food. I understand that some people had a big party on the night of what would have been the evil of it. My narcissist ex's birthday party and I was like, “I have to put this behind me.” This can take so many forms. Some people go back to school and become therapists. Some people become coaches. Dr. Romney is like when you understand something and there's something intense. fascination with narcissism and many of us have experiences with it, but when you understand it and when you have some simple tools from an expert like yourself, it becomes an opportunity for growth, it becomes an opportunity for self-awareness for self-compassion because only because the climate in Chicago can't be changed and you can't change what that other person is doing, many things may be true, but what we know is always true is that if you are willing to put in the work you can improve the situation in the one you find yourself in because you can change the way you present yourself, you can change the boundaries that you have, you can change the way you internalize things or not, yeah, and the people who go through these relationships sometimes I think almost I don't want to be happy because it's such a contrast to where I am in this relationship, so it's almost a feeling of okay, maybe I'll just do it, I'll do it.

They're not going to take care of me because they don't take care of me fits is again making everything fit I say find those ways because they're I call them these little acts of rebellion the way you tighten up because if you exercise and they know about it like oh why what are you wasting your time? You must have a lot of free time if you can exercise, but then you realize like, oh, I have 18 minutes before they get home and you get on the treadmill, you put the yoga channel on your whatever. You watch YouTube and you do it like you find these little acts of rebellion that you could do every day.

You have a goal each day for 365 days. You do one thing to achieve the goal and maybe you finish that online race and here's the win never tell the narcissistic person your dreams never tell them your aspirations because they will make fun of you and dismantle you and even try to get in their way the Rebellion is going and chasing those dreams without them knowing. and once you've done it, you've done it, you don't even have to share it and what's really fun to see is when narcissists hear it from someone else like, wow, did you hear about all that stuff they set up and the Prince He said: Why didn't you tell me?

And ah, it didn't seem like a big deal and you just say it but never share your dreams with them. Wow, I'm thinking right now about a speech where I was in the audience and it was a women's conference and this woman stood up and was talking about how she had this big dream of getting this degree online and her husband didn't. I would allow it, no, and I remember thinking how sad it was. Realize that she was trapped in this life and you know what I mean is these little acts of rebellion if you feel trapped in this and there are several things that are true, these little 18 minute moments of rebellion. they're almost like digging a tunnel, they're the ones that allow you to escape over time because every time you do something that's for you first and you don't feel the need to share it or get permission and you still show up every day and do it. that exercise or you do that meditation or you take that online class and you don't seek permission or validation from that narcissist if you start exercising that muscle at some point you're going to wake up yes and you're going to realize, oh my god, I'm actually in the surface and out of jail, why did I stay there?

Okay, I'm not going to validate myself, but I'm ready to make a big change. Now you start to see that I can do things. When you do those little acts of rebellion, there's something in you that wakes up and you think, "I can do things and maybe I'm strong enough to do this or that," you meet other people, you get validated in different ways, you get the A on the paper and the professor says wow like why don't you go to grad school after all those years of being invalidated for someone to say here's something special about you just that one conversation can change the course of someone's life but That's just going to happen when you do all these little acts of rebellion and that could be one of the most important steps to survival.

This isn't about storming out and saying I'm leaving you, but you can do all these little things because I know you're leaving. It can be overwhelming for people and whatever it is, it can be reading a whole body of literature, it can be learning another language, you can also do it on your own time, but whatever it looks like, in some way it is acquiring that new skill, actualize that dream and don't let that happen. they know it or it can hurt, it can awaken something in you, your true self, that can actually allow you to start to really distance yourself from this relationship, if not physically, then definitely psychologically, you know, I also felt really empowered because I realized that that's also something that we can do as friends, sisters and brothers and see other people who are in these situations validating someone that you know, not doing what they probably would have done in the past, that's why you don't leave it, why No?

You don't cut them off like you're just validating the little Independence and Rebellion moves that someone is doing and being, and being someone who is an ally, that way you can support someone. Another way to do it is that you can listen. to this podcast you can share this podcast uh, you can listen to navigating narcissism, you follow that podcast. Hi, I'm Mel, thank you so much for watching this video and if you like this one, I have a feeling you'll like this one. I'll see you there too