Episode 89- Lori Gottlieb on How Changing Your Story Can Change Your Life

Welcome to Game Changers with Molly Fletcher, where we take you behind the scenes with top artists to learn what makes them tick and discover how you can apply their lessons to

your

life

. I'm

your

host Molly Fletcher, we all have stories about why our lives are In some ways, stories help you make sense of your

life

, but sometimes they can also keep you stuck today. I'm talking to therapist Lorri Gottlieb, she's the author of the New York Times bestseller Maybe You Should Talk to Someone and writes the Dear Therapist Advice Column. for The Atlantic Every year nearly 30 million Americans sit on a therapist's couch and some of these patients are therapists yes, it turns out even therapists need therapy maybe you should talk to someone brings stories to life from the therapy couch Based on Laurie's experiences as a clinical psychologist and patient, in today's conversation we talk about how to overcome toxic thinking,

change

our self-limiting narratives and get unstuck.

Laurie shares how to take control of the

story

you've been telling yourself and become the editor of your own life is about

changing

your narrative to

change

your life let's dive in here's my conversation with Laurie Gottlieb okay Lori thank you so much for coming on these are going to be great conversations that I think will help a lot of people so thank you very much yeah No, it's a pleasure, thank you for inviting me. Absolutely, so you start the book with this note, this is a book that asks how we change and answers with quotes in relation to others, so I really want to start there.

I think a lot of people think of therapy as how they know themselves. work, which of course it is, but I love this distinction you're making, can you expand on that a little bit? Yeah, you know, I think a lot of people think that the way they change is by making a decision. do something and then they do something different and it doesn't work like that there's a lot of behind-the-scenes work that happens before people make changes it's not Nike, just do it, you know, that's why New Year's resolutions tend not to last long. time, so you know, we go through these stages and they and I think that's when I say we change in relationship to others, it's usually because we have some kind of external support and people don't realize how important that is. . and, in a way, from that, you know that therapy is not just about gaining some kind of knowledge, it has to be accompanied by behavior change, which I love, it's a struggle for a lot of people, I mean, I imagine it like that.

You know, I think so. I think there is a lot of stigma that keeps people from going to therapy and there are a lot of misconceptions and maybe you should talk to someone. I really try to show what the experience is like and how people grow and change from that experience. I think a lot of people think that therapy is like you go and talk about your childhood ad nauseum and you never leave, nothing is accomplished in therapy, it's what you said about understanding, it's the silly prize of therapy that you are you have to being vulnerable in therapy you have to take off the mask you have to tell the truth of your experience but at the same time you have to be responsible and by that I mean there are people who will go to therapy and tell me oh now I understand why I haven't been applying those jobs or now I understand why I keep getting into that conflict with my partner and I will say okay well, you did something different well no, but now I understand that that is not useful, but you must not only understand why you are doing something, but also use that knowledge to make a different decision.

Sometimes it's a misconception and in the world it's true that you go and have these conversations. and maybe you're vulnerable and maybe you're responsible, but you have to work on

changing

the behavior, right? You know, it's a lot of work, you don't come in every week and download some kind of problem and you know we call them problem of the week, you're not there to download the problem of the week and then leave and then the therapy session exists in their own capsule, you have to use what you got that hour during the week, so we really want people to be the person they came in with and they will manifest differently in the world and the person they leave with, and a One of the things I also say about that process is that part of the therapy.

It's knowing yourself, but part of therapy is also reaching into the unknown, which means it's getting rid of the kind of flawed narrative that you've been telling yourself about yourself so that you can't get trapped by that narrative, for sure, and you already know. For those who haven't read his book, which by the way, what are you waiting for? She's amazing and narrates her own experience with therapy, so I guess one of the questions is how would you describe your experience as a therapist? Therapy, I mean, I kind of empathize with the fact that your therapist has to be one.

I mean, no, I mean walk you through this blue, tell me a little bit about that. Well, just so you know, in the book I follow four main patients like. They go through various things and they are very different types of people on the surface mm-hmm, but I think they are also very similar deep down, in the sense that they all we have these universal struggles that we go through and then The fifth patient in the book is me as I go through my own struggles and I go see a therapist and I think what's interesting is that I say it from the beginning of the book that my biggest credential is that I am a card.

Being a member of the human race I used my humanity all the time in the therapy room. I wouldn't be a good therapist if I didn't use my own experience like you, knowing what it's like to be a person in the world, but I think that when I went to therapy, at first there was a tendency to try to look more organized than I was in that moment when I'm going through something in my life and yet it goes away very quickly. You're just one person in the room when you go to therapy and I do with my therapist all the things that my patients do with me in terms of, you know, keeping the masks on, without really talking about what it should be.

Talking and talking about it in every way possible, self-sabotage, you know, not being willing to look at my blind spot and that's normal in the process, so I think it's really helpful. I think we see ourselves more clearly through the lens of other people's stories, so I think it was important to tell my

story

and include it alongside other patients' stories because we are actually all very similar mm-hmm that's it. that came up in you that made you say that I know this is a book that I need to write. I'm going to choose these different people, if you will, who were real to you and certainly yours, but this is real, yes, I mean real people, I'm sure this story will transcend others. people, yeah, I think you know, the response has been that I think every reader sees themselves in these these people and you see yourself in all these different, you agree that they look very different, you know. , in terms of age, gender and type. of personality that they have in their story and the kind of problems that they face, you know, that's why so many people are reading this book and, in fact, if I knew how many people were going to read this book, maybe I wouldn't have been so open. with my own story that I remember when I turned in my first draft I thought maybe three people would read this book and now we're on the New York Times list for like almost a year, so it's a lot of people are reading it and I think it's because I was very real and I think that's what really helps people say, "Oh, I see myself in this person or I see something about myself that I haven't seen in the same way before." Now I know what to do about it hmm, that's great, you know, it seems like people come to therapy for a myriad of reasons, but if you had to say why most people are there, what would you say is key?

I think there's something that's not working in their lives mhm and that could be a lot of different things, it could be something that has to do with their relationships, it could be something that has to do with the way that they're functioning, you know. , they function the way they want to function they are a little stagnant many people come in with this feeling of stagnation like something isn't quite right or I'm not really living up to my potential or I feel like I'm missing something in the world they are like I'm missing something in my life I don't feel alive that's another one yeah I feel alive that's not how they describe it when they come in it's this is something like what comes underneath so I always say I'm listening to the music underneath the lyrics, the music that is the lyrics, you know, I'm having problems with my boss, you know?

Problems with my partner, you know, and music is fine, what is the underlying struggle or pattern that got you to this place in the first place? mm-hmm and that's what the job is about mm-hmm, what are some of the most common defenses? mechanisms, you see well, I mean, you have been in the room a lot, yes, well, humans are very creative when it comes to avoiding feeling what we are really feeling and that is why we defend ourselves against them because we are very afraid of our feelings we have so afraid that you know there is a kind of good and bad feelings in quotes and even take the case of envy, the right people feel like that, I am a bad person if you knew, if I had to share the envious I am of that other person, but I always say use your MZ, follow your envy, it tells you what you want, so instead of marinating in your envy, use it as a cue, what is it telling me about something I can do?

I want to do it in my own life and what steps should I take to make that happen for myself mm-hmm so when we feel anxious or sad or envious or whatever, what is that that tells me about what's not working in my life so I can do something different mm-hmm I know I had a conversation with Glennon Doyle the other day and we were talking about pain, you know, and she's a big advocate of feeling everything, feeling everything in life and feeling that pain. and that's what I hear you say, right, stay with it, yeah, I hate it and learn from it.

Well, our feelings are like our GPS and I don't want to access your feelings. You're walking around with a faulty GPS, that's what. You don't know who to turn to and this is what we do when we don't feel our feelings right? It manifests itself in a bad temper in an inability to sit still in a self-sabotage in which my A colleague calls the Internet and says it is the most effective short-term over-the-counter pain reliever out there, so you know we are falling down the rabbit hole of Internet and you distract yourself from feeling anything and our feelings are so powerful that they are the most powerful tool we have to know which direction to go mm-hmm you know it, you know it, I know it, Lori, a lot of couples therapy, what is it?

What stresses you the most when you see what is happening there in the room that has intensified and perhaps the life of a couple? What often comes up in those moments, I think what comes up is that people feel that their partner is doing something to them to make their life worse, so a lot of people come and say: I want things to change, but what really want to change is that they want their partner to change me mm-hm, I guess they don't see their own role in it, so the way I start a couple of sessions is what I always tell people before they even put in one foot in the matter.

In the first session, I want each of you to come with something that you want to change about yourselves and that you believe will improve this relationship, so no matter what the other person does, what are you going to work on for yourself and for each other? the rest? One of the things I love about couples is that we really reveal ourselves when we show up with someone else mm-hmm in our relationships. All the things that we might be able to hide in a one-on-one session, you can hide for a little while. at least it comes up pretty quickly when you see someone interact with someone where the stakes are high, sure, I bet it's easy to walk into the room alone, close the door and tell your story properly and you know I'll do it. having people tell their stories as a couple, they don't even have to tell their stories.

I'm watching his story unfold in front of me. I'm watching what they're doing, things like, you know, someone will say to another person in a couple you never listen to me and I turn to that person and tell them how well you listen to them mm-hmm sure sure it's hard for them to listen to you if you don't know how to listen mm-hmm mm-hmm, that's good, yes, I pull the mirror up, without a doubt, yes, one of the most important takeaways for me from the book is the power of story and I'm a big fan of this and you say quote, you say we all are.

Unreliable narrators of our own lives, right? You say we are all unreliable narrators of our own lives. Can we dig a little deeper into that? Maybe tell our listeners what you mean by that. Of course, yes, that is very important. I just did a TED talk about it. and it's about how when people come and not even in therapy but just the way we move through the world, we're so sure that our version of a story is the right version and I don't mean that people are purposely deceiving the majority. what people are not saying is that there are so many things that they leave in or out or they are emphasizing ominimizing and telling the story because they want you to validate their position,They want you to feel seen and heard and understood, so they make sure to tell the story in a way that leads to that, and yet, I talked about the difference between idiotic compassion and wise compassion, so immediate compassion is what our friends do to us.

We follow the story and say, yeah, you know, that guy was a jerk, because he broke up with you even though we know that happened. to this person the last three times because maybe they don't know how to trust or they know there's something they're doing, that injury comes up every time or you know, yeah, your boss is, you know. It was so horrible that your boss gave the other person the promotion you deserved, even though we know that maybe this person isn't really a team player or doesn't get along with his colleagues or doesn't try very hard. .

Work the same way the person who got promoted did mhm and you know, but we just offered that idiotic compassion because we feel like that's how we support them, it doesn't really help them, what a therapist will do is offer wisely. wise compassion compassion is holding up the mirror to someone and saying I want you to look at yourself and see yourself in a way that maybe you haven't been willing or been able to and we will do that with many things. I use the word compassion because we are going to do it with a lot of compassion but seeing this about you is going to free you mmm which makes them want to open up because it is a great word to free you that feels good if I have done it It is liberating to be able to say that I am NOT a victim of something that exists.

I am NOT a victim of all these circumstances that exist. In fact, I have authority over the outcomes of so many things in my life, but I need to see what my role is. it's because whatever I'm doing is creating an outcome that I don't want, no that doesn't mean there aren't people who are contributing to it, we have this thing in therapy that before we diagnose someone with depression make sure they aren't surrounded. I'm not saying there aren't other factors that you know are happening at the same time, but even if there are difficult people, what is your response?

We can choose our answer. every situation and your response is exacerbating the situation or your response is doing something to release it, so stories can keep us stuck. What should people change if they are going to make a little effort to clarify the stories they tell themselves? keeping them trapped in a place that doesn't serve them at first. I think the first thing is to have a lot of compassion for themselves because sometimes the reason we make our stories is because we feel a lot of shame for a certain part. of history that we don't want to include because we know that we may have some role in what isn't working and we feel so ashamed that we feel good, that won't reflect well on me, so I think that nothing good, no growth or change has never arisen from short-term self-flagellation short-term change sometimes you know you can sell yourself flagellation and you have to do that or do that and you know that maybe that works for a while, but it doesn't last the way it happens Long-term transformation is when we have a lot of compassion for ourselves at the same time that we take responsibility, so if things can happen that happen at the same time, which is compassion, self-compassion and then also self-compassion. responsibility those things go hand in hand you don't have to sell flagellates you don't have to hit your stoma mm-hmm I had a patient who had this voice in her head like we all have that was very critical but she couldn't She didn't see it and so I told her that She would go home and write down to notice the voice and write down everything that voice told her over the course of a few days and then we would talk about it the next week in our session so she would come back. the next week and she says she has this piece of paper and she's like, "I can't read this to you.

I was so intimidating to myself and then you know she started reading it to me and there were things like, God, you did that." mistake again, you're so stupid that, by the way, if a friend did that, not only would you not say it and this wouldn't be idiotic compassion, you wouldn't actually think your friend was stupid, right, right, you know? just things like you're really going to eat that with those thighs you know how things are or you just know oh look at all the couples you'll never find anyone you know walking down the street I mean the voices we don't realize how we are cruel to ourselves and being cruel prevents us from seeing ourselves clearly because when we are cruel to ourselves, shame accumulates and then we do not want to look at ourselves in a way that is perhaps a little more objective. mm-hmm, you know, one of the things that I sent that I found so fascinating in reading your book is your experience, right when you started.

I mean, this is amazing. You started in television working for NBC with friends and ER became essential. you watch TV well and then you go to medical school and eventually you become a therapist and a journalist and you know they may seem like really separate paths but obviously they're really connected, you know how all of that gives you such a unique perspective? serve your customers and really the world through the words you have written on paper. I feel like everything I've done, even though all these careers look so different, had to do with history and the human condition, so when I was working in film and then on a television network.

I felt like we were telling very rich human stories, certainly in the ER, you know, because no one goes to an ER where you expect something to happen, so there are always these turning points, but when I was. Working in the ER, we had a consultant who was a real ER doctor and I spent time in the ER researching, quote, with him and what I really connected with was real human experiences, so there was one thing to tell in the stories. in a fictional way on television, but seeing them happen in real life was something that seemed much deeper to me and that's when I went to medical school and I went to Stanford and when I was in medical school it was the you.

I know the end of the first one, near the end, we didn't know it then, of the first dotcom boom and about to be the first bust, and a lot of people were talking about how the medical field had changed and that was managed care and I really couldn't getting involved with the human stories that I wanted to get involved with because of the way the new medical model seemed to be coming in, so I also started writing at that time and left medical school to become a journalist where I felt I could help to tell stories to people mm-hmm and I did it for many years and then also, you know, I still do it, but in the middle of all that I had a baby and one of the Things that happened once they felt I needed to talk to humans adults during the day and the UPS guy would come and deliver packages to me and I would stop him just so he could talk to me and another adult.

I was saying things like how about those diapers and you know you have a pair and he was backing up to his big brown van and I thought, "Okay, I need to do something about this," so I called the dean of Stanford. and I said, listen, maybe you should go back to medical school and do psychiatry and she said, listen, if you do psychiatry, you can go back, but you'll mainly do medication management and if you want to do this, you know? with the human condition and history and all your interests and you have those connections, why don't you go to graduate school and get a degree in clinical psychology and then you can do the kind of work that you want to do and that was exactly what I did and I feel like all I did was just approach the story of the human condition from a different angle and as I say in my TED talk, I feel like as a therapist my job is really that of an editor where people come in and I help them edit these flawed narratives.

Mme helped them unravel their stories. Whatever their first draft is, it is no longer useful to them, so we are working on their life stories and the edits that need to be made. that you can live the way you want, we'll get back to the show, but first I want to share with you a series of free videos that I created just for you. Too often we assume that our potential is a lofty vision. It hangs over our heads but is never fully attainable, but in reality our potential is built in small moments. A professional athlete delivers a key performance in the biggest games because he performed it a thousand times in practice.

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I dug into that a little bit because I think the connection between change and loss is powerful. Yes, many people wonder why they aren't changing when they know exactly what they need to do to change and part of the reason has to do with fact. that change and loss are linked that you can't have change without loss and people said well wait a minute I'm making positive change so what are you talking about when you say loss and what I mean is we lose what familiar? um, when we say you want to make a change and you know it will be a positive change, you are still losing something that is certain for you, even if the certainty is something unpleasant or miserable, right, it still feels familiar and there is comfort in that to those Humans don't do well with uncertainty mm-hmm and that's why most of us don't like it, so even if we are doing something positive, it's uncertain, we don't know how it will be, but we sure know how. the current situation is like and it's like a warm blanket, you know, it's like no, you don't necessarily maybe need a new blanket, the blanket might be a little bit torn, it's a little bit gross, but you know what your blanket is. and you know what it's like to wrap up again today and then all of a sudden it's like you have to go to this new place, like go to a new country or a new culture, you don't know what, what you don't know. you know the language but you don't know what the customs are in this culture you don't know how to be you don't know you don't know what to expect and that's why I think a lot of people want to hold on to what they know and that's why we have to give up something to get something more and they think that if we don't recognize that we are giving up something it is more difficult to change mm-hmm and you talk about the five stages of change, you know? and how that manifests, can you break it down?

Yes, before we get to the place of what we call action, we go through these different today there is a prior contemplation where you don't even know that you are considering making a change. There is contemplation. where you're thinking maybe I need to do something about this but you're not really ready to do it, there's a stage where we're taking some action, you know we're preparing, it's called preparation, maybe you're like googling and researching a little about the change you want to make and then there's an action where you actually make the change, but that's not the end, that's not the last step, the last step is maintenance and maintenance is how we maintain the change so that You know we see this a lot, let's say you want to quit smoking or you want to stop drinking so much or you know you want there are some habits that you're trying to change that kind of thing we see it a lot, but you also know how we see that in relationships where a Sometimes someone has a maladaptive pattern that they keep repeating over and over again in relationships and they take action and want to change, but then something sometimes recedes and regresses, people will do that in the future.

The maintenance phase regresses, you know, that's normal, that's what you should expect, but then how do you come back? How do you recover from that? And the people who have the resilience that they have at that time regressed. It's good, no. Kick yourself, they're those people who like to go on a diet and say okay, they did great and then all of a sudden, oh wait, I had like three pieces of cake, well, all diets get ruined and forget it. I'm just going to leave it okay instead of okay, so I ate three pieces of cake and tomorrow I'll start again, yeah, and you know, no, no, like, oh, all is lost, so maintenance is actually one of the most difficult stages of change. which people often ignore because they think I've made the change and I'm done, no you're not done, you have to, you have to keep it until it becomes a regular part of your life and then it will be a lot easier for you.

I know I think this is really one of the most powerful characters in the book is Julie and without giving everything away, you know you're ultimately helping her come to terms with her own death, you know, yeah, that changes you and what did you learn from her? ?So Julie is this young woman who comes to see me. She had just returned from the honeymoon and she felt something in her chest. She thought maybe she was pregnant and she wasn't pregnant. She had breast cancer, but she had this very treatable form of breast cancer. Then she came to me nobecause she thought she was going to die, but because she wanted to get some support while she was going through her cancer treatment as a newlywed and she got better and when you know, she left after the treatment was over and her scans were clear and six months later She needed to have a clearance scan so she could try to get pregnant and she called me.

I hadn't spoken to her since I saw her when she left and there was no I had Queen's scans and she told me that in these scans they discovered a different cancer and that it was a very rare and aggressive form of cancer that was going to kill her, so she asked me if I would stay with her until she died and at the time I had no experience doing that with someone like Julie with someone young and I really didn't want to mess up, she would only have one chance for this and I certainly wanted to make sure that she I had the experience I wanted, but she insisted that she said she didn't want to be around people with cancer, it wasn't one of those rosy bows and optimism and that didn't work for her, so what it did for me was really make me sit face to face. with my own mortality, but it wasn't just Julie that was dying, obviously there was something that you knew was imminent for her, but it really made me think about the idea that life has a one hundred percent mortality rate and most of us We don't know when or how.

We're going to die and then what does that do? It can make you depressed or it can help you live with more intentionality in your life mm-hmm so I think it really made me and you can see in the book how I follow my own therapy and I went in for one thing that seems very clear at first as we talked from unreliable narrators and we have biased stories and what you see is that there were all these other things happening. and seeing Julie really made me look at the bigger picture and made me think about what I want to do with my life while I'm still alive and I don't just mean breathing, but while I'm healthy and doing it safely. right, you know why light, well, I don't want to live, you know, there's another patient in the book that I see and she's an older woman who has a lot of regrets about her life and the things she did and didn't do or and and I think we don't want to. living with those kinds of regrets, we mean I had my eyes open and I made these decisions, even if you make decisions that you may feel like maybe wasn't the best choice.

At least you thought about the choice hmmm, even if it didn't work out the way you wanted, no, so I think what Julie can do for all of us is help us keep the idea of ​​our mortality. on a shoulder, not in a morbid way and not in a way that obsesses us, but simply in a way that invigorates us, in a way that makes us feel more alive and aware that I need to spend three hours on Instagram, or else Is there something else I want to do, what is the meaning and purpose, what matters to me, what matters to the people around me, how am I going to live in a way that feels consistent with my values ​​and with what I want to achieve mm-hmm boy, I bet it was a powerful experience for you on many levels.

I mean, you just broke it down a little bit and I'm sure we could go on for hours just with that, yeah, yeah, well, there's a reason why there's a suspicious box in the I know, you know, you know, we thought about what We've learned in these moments, you know, I think some people come to therapy, you know, seeking forgiveness or wanting to forgive, maybe another person, what? Have you learned about forgiveness and all the work you've done well? That woman I just mentioned, the one who had lived with so much regret, one of her regrets was not having been the mother she wanted to have been. she needs major mistakes in raising her children that you know had an impact on them and that is why her adult children are estranged from her and she wants to repair those relationships, but the way she is trying to repair them is by wanting them to want to explain to them. and wanting to be forgiven and what I told her was that that is a forced forgiveness that a lot of times people say that people do this to people all the time you say oh you need to forgive no, you don't really know, I think You can have compassion for someone and their situation, but you don't have to feel something you're not really feeling, you can't feel something you don't feel mm-hmm, so I think that's how she was able to reach out to her children and make them came to her was to find a way to forgive herself that the only person she needed forgiveness from was herself that if she could find a way not to apologize or not to take responsibility again not to take responsibility for what she had done but to find a way to forgive herself at one point I told her how long do you think the sentence should be for your crime is life in prison because so many times we give ourselves a life sentence for things that we've done, yeah, when maybe that maybe we don't need it maybe we can get out of jail and so she needed to forgive herself and come to some kind of reconciliation with herself around the decisions she made. she did and then when what she really needed to do was become in the present the kind of mother that they needed now and she might as well become the kind of mother they needed now instead of trying to make up for something that happened in the past when more said oh yes we can reach out to you while you are the mother we need now nothing will change the pain of the past but we can change what is happening right now in the present and you think your therapy is so There is a lot about the present, a lot of people think that you can tear a patient down, all about the past, but really it's so focused on the present, mhm, and what you can do now in the present and how the present informs the future, so the decisions you're making taking. now in the present will inform how the future will unfold and that's really the focus and a lot of people are just living in the past and we as therapists ironically tell people we need to catch up here, we need to catch up. to this day you know you said the word compassion and and I love how you deliver it you call it a loving truth bomb like a loving truth yeah and and like that and it's kind of like so wise compassionate how we get there I mean, like you're a trained professional, but There is something we can learn from it too.

I think that I and all of our listeners are kind of loving truth bombs that tell us that, yeah, well, I think that's where I come back to self-pity, I think. The more compassion we have for ourselves, the more compassion we have for others, and so when we talk about the difference between idiotic compassion and wise compassion, wise compassion is not, you know, it's kind of like the message of compassion. wise is if a fight breaks out and in every bar you go to, it could be you, that's the message we want to tell our friends when we see them doing the same things over and over again and yet we always say oh, that's terrible that this has happened to you even though we know it. that there is something that they continue doing, which is achieving the same work, I'm sure you know that, but they believe that truth bombs are what are really going to help people, that's where wisdom comes in, but you deliver it with compassion, not Is it that you do this or is it more about asking them questions to make them curious about themselves, what do you know?

What do you think? Why do you think this keeps happening or what do you think is going on here? You know, the moment and the dose when they are in the agony of love those who are suffering from the pain that maybe it is not the moment but maybe next week maybe two weeks later maybe it will not be one conversation but several conversations and I think that's the most loving thing we can do for people that what we care about is helping them see something about themselves that will help them live in a way that makes them feel better and it's important to all of us, isn't it? that we have people in our lives who do this right for us and who serve us?

In this way we are not afraid to give each other love bombs of truth. I mean, that's the key. I would be lucky. I think that's what trust is all about. You know when you have that trust with someone that they're going to keep it. they have you in high esteem at the same time that they are going to point out the ridiculousness of what you are doing mm-hmm it is about things that you know exist you know why human beings are ridiculous we are all right you know and we need to laugh at that we take so seriously to ourselves surely the more we can laugh at the ridiculousness of the ways we behave in our own way the easier it will be for us to see them and make changes mm-hmm yeah well I tell you I'm very grateful for my parents and my Husband, they drop those loving truth bombs but with love and their moments that you remember, remember?

I remember many of them, but they are fundamental in our lives, you know? Why was there any fear? I just want to ask you this question that we'll end here, but was there any fear in putting yourself out there in this way while still practicing as a therapist because, as you say, you say this in your book very often when patients see your humanity and leave us, so tell me How did that seem to you? Yes, that's true. I think most therapists are very hesitant to reveal anything about themselves and I want to make a distinction, but what I write in the book, obviously, I would never do that. end up in a therapy session, so I guess the best way to describe it is that first, I didn't really think the book was going to be that readable, so I think I might have wanted to cleanse myself a little if I knew, but I'm glad a lot of not having known, so our luck is the power of being honest, sincere and the book, but I think the other thing also is that when the book first came out, I went on a book tour and I didn't tell them my patients where did I go because I never do.

I always say that I will leave on such and such a date and this person is on call for me and so on when I return. of the book tour and at that point the book had exploded. I went back to the office and some people came into my office and sat on my couch and said, "I read your book and it was really interesting because the conversations they wanted to have weren't so much about me because they had read what they read about me in the book." book, they wanted to have conversations about us and a lot of what I write about the book is the relationship right when talking about how we grow in connection with others, what it looks like to have this very intimate relationship with someone who is also a very professional relationship, but It's also a life-changing relationship and it's intimate in a way that we'll talk about things that sometimes people won't talk about in any way with the people out there in the world mm-hmm, it'll be a different conversation for sure, or am I the one? first to hear it and I hear this I have this difference especially when the difference between you know and as a generalization with men and women where you know, men will come in and tell me I've never said this to anyone before and then I wait to hear what they'll say and what They say I feel very soft most of the time and I think it's so much compassion for them like you don't really have anyone to say that to and these are people who have a lot of people in their lives who have friends. a safe partner, then women will come in and say, you know, I've never told this to anyone before, except my mom or my sister, my best friend, sure, honey, you know, 1, 2, 3 people I tell They've told but feel like they haven't told anyone, whereas in our culture it's not okay for men to be vulnerable and literally have no one they've told before.

I'm the first person to hear something most of the time, so I think that's what people want to talk about when they come in, they read the book, that's what they want to talk about, oh, now I'm allowed to talk about what's on. happening between us in a new way, you know because I work very much in a relational way in the room, but I think now you know that there is that moment in the book where I tell my own therapist if you like me mm-hmm and now I've heard stories of people going to their therapist and saying, you know, I read this book and in the book the person tells the therapist if you like me, you know, they're indirectly asking their therapist because I can't really ask the question very well, but I think it's also What we're doing is helping people see more, see our work in a deeper way, see more of you know what we've been talking about and just reinforce it and I think that's what it does for the reader;

I think it's one thing for someone to say to someone, you know you have a habit of doing this or this is what's getting in your way, but I think it's very different when you're reading something and you can recognize yourself in someone, oh, That's super powerful. What is your way of writing it? Definitely tell us about some of the projects you have coming up, including I Know You Have a TV series produced by Eva Longoria. Write on a podcast. Yes, so the book is being adapted into a television series, and Eva Longoria's company is producing it and the writers of the creators of the show, the Americans are writing the pilot right now for this show, the first

episode

, and that It's very exciting and I hope that also lets them know that I would really do it.

What I want to dowith the book is to bring our emotional health and these conversations about emotional health just normalize them and I think the TV show will do that even to a greater degree and I still write, even though I'm weak, I run your therapist column for the Atlantic and I. I'm launching a new podcast with I Heart Radio that Katie Couric is producing and it's called Dear Therapist and it's me, Guy Winch and other therapists and we're going to look at the problems of letter writers and then we're also going to do something that I don't do.

What I can't do in my advice column is that they will go and try the tips and then come back and tell us how it went so well and then we can see what worked, what didn't work and and learn a lot from those experiences wow, that's great, we're done with Lori with rapid fire, so I'll ask you a couple quick questions and you just shoot whatever comes up, sure, morning person or night owl, night owl, which is harder to be. a therapist or the patient patient definitely okay what's what's the last book that you recommend or what's the book that you recommend I loved Olive Again by Elizabeth Stroud mm-hm she's a fantastic person that you would play who would be a person that I would play you in a movie or a TV show, oh, I'll leave that up to the casting, okay, what makes you laugh.

Oh, everything you know is very interesting, so I just wrote a New York Times article about how I tweeted in the middle. of the coronavirus I said if I can't touch my face soon I'll have to go to therapy and you know, I think humor is very important, especially not in spite of, but especially in times when we're struggling, so I would say humor. It's something you know, I try to find humor in those mm-hmm situations, which makes you cry too. I think I think you know people who are aware of what one has done around them will feel it very deeply and I think.

You know, we always say that you can't silence one emotion without silencing the others, so you can't silence pain and then also feel joy. If you mute one, you'll mute the other, so I guess maybe As much as I laugh, I think I might cry mm-hmm, what's the best advice you've ever received? The advice about going back and being a therapist. Hmm, yes, and I think the world would appreciate that advice to enlighten you. We're doing which is awesome, so the show is called Game Changers, so one last question, who or what is a game changer that inspires you and why?

So, it can be a person who is alive and inspires you and why a week ago, my father died. Hmm, he is the person who inspired me the most in my life because of his emotional generosity and that is the quality that I value so much and they think that having emotional generosity if you can find your place of emotional generosity will be a game changer. in your life, and I think emotional generosity is the key to changing our lives, so I would say it's the biggest game changer. Wow, that's fantastic. Well, Laurie, thank you so much for joining us.

This is a great conversation that I know will help a lot. people and I can't say enough about the book, it's really interesting, it's good, thanks for taking the time to expose yourself, it's amazing, thank you so much Laurie, it's a pleasure, thanks for the conversation, thanks as always. to listen to the game-changers with Molly Fletcher, if you liked the show, be sure to subscribe to Apple Podcasts. There you can listen to previous

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s and leave us a review that helps other people learn about the show. For more information about me, visit Molly Fletcher com until Next time stay curious and be smart.