Why did Project Poch fail and who next?

Well today we have Athletics Chelsea writer Simon Johnson and Jack Pit Brook who followed Pochettino's reign at Spurs very closely and let's start with you Simon. Many people, including Chelsea fans, would have been surprised by the decision considering the rise in the five form. win to end the Europa League qualifying season, but what was your reaction? I wasn't surprised by Adam and in some ways I'm quite surprised that people are surprised because the man Rich Portino himself dropped a number of hints for months actually, but particularly in the last six weeks about how he was feeling.

He was starting to say some very frank things, having little. Excavations in the Stoke organisation, sporting directors. He had plenty of opportunities to say that he would stay for sure, but he would. I often say it's not my decision, it's his decision when I asked him recently after Todd B's comments at the sports conference about how Todd seemed to be quite positive and also admitted early in the press conference that he had started working. In pre-season I asked him a very positive question: "You know, it's a good sign that you're going to stay," and he voluntarily decided to take a completely different path by saying: "Well, it's not just about the club being happy with we".

I have to be happy and if there is a division it is not the end of the world. I mean, this is something extraordinary. He then repeated those comments over the weekend. Maybe because someone had whispered a word in his ear, but a coach. you don't talk like that unless you're thinking there's a possibility of parting ways and on top of that, I was starting to get indications not just the ones we all knew as the club was going to review things at the end of the season and that there would potentially be a change , but I was also starting to hear things from Pochettino's side that he, as he said in the press conference, was not particularly happy about, so yes, in answer to your question, Adam, I have been kind.

I've been waiting for this day to come and, um, it was, it's sad in the sense that Chelsea seemed to be making progress, but at the same time, just seven weeks ago, Chelsea were just two points better. less than the previous season on the same stage and last season was a disaster, so if you really look at the whole season and that's what potina is judged by, can you really say that the last seven weeks make up for the whole season and and That's obviously one of the things the owners were thinking about, obviously the statement pointed out that it was a mutual decision.

I mean, you mentioned it there, yeah, Maritzio himself was starting to think if this is a

project

that even if there was a risqué thing that he wanted to be a part of, just explain how you think the decision really came from both sides, yeah, so the kind of how this actually works, um, there was a meeting on Monday, um, then, sort of. While they were trying to shut down, they fell asleep and then made a real decision on Tuesday, but actually, in my opinion, I think the decision was pretty much already made. I think both sides knew what was going to happen. of putting dots in the eyes crossing the teas, let's come to an agreement, etc., and let's know for sure that he would probably deny it and and and in a way indicates that no, no, it was, it was this was just the one time, this was the only one time, but I think I know.

The word mutual consent is often viewed with great cynicism and that's understandable, but I honestly think that this is actually a mutual parting of ways, um and I think it suits both sides and that's why Pochettino's side is now leaving like W with his stock pretty high, um and there are some big jobs available right now, so there's a lot of sympathy in Po Chino's corner, imagine if he had left, like I said before, when they were ranked 11, 12 , simply. two points better than last season, he would be viewed much more critically now that people are doing well, in fact in Europe, even Chelsea fans, many of whom weren't big fans of him, oh, what? why have they done that?

And then, from the club's point of view. From one point of view, one of the reasons they made this decision is because they see

next

season if it makes sense as a two-season season because of the Club World Cup schedule in June, so we have this awkward potin situation. . If you had a year left with an option for another 12 months, could you really afford to go to that tournament that Chelsea are clearly taking very seriously with that uncertainty of what's happening with the head coach? And part of the discussions would have been whether we stayed. married, um, for two, two more years or not, and if the answer is no on both sides, then I think it's a pretty iCal conclusion to say well, actually, let's shake hands and go our separate ways and Chelsea are now looking another coach and Poino is looking for another job, Jack, what's your opinion?

Does it feel like the right thing for both parties? Well, I'm not as close to the situation at Chelsea as Simon, so my perspective on this is mainly. After watching Chelsea on television, but having watched a lot of Chelsea on television, I'm one of those people who thinks, isn't it surprising that the man quits his job now that he's a liter? It has barely become clear that he has managed to turn the ship around. I think, like a lot of people, there was definitely a point, you know, when they were booed against Wolves in February, where I thought he's not going to be able to do this, he's not going to be able to imprint his personality and ideas on the football club. and yet in the last few months I think they've lost one league game since then and I admit it was bad at Arsenal but overall the trajectory has been upwards and I was thinking.

Can they see each other? They finally look like a Poino team. You know, you can imagine a bright future for them if they can get the summer transfer window right and from my outside perspective I'm one of those people who's surprised because I think you're like sacrificing any prospect of a bright future under Poino to begin with. again with a less experienced manager, Simon, you've heard that I guess you alluded to that before is that a valid and valid opinion, you know this was yeah, okay. It was a short period of time, but it was quite a job to say that some progress had been made at the right time or just in time if you wanted to qualify for Europe, yes, and I mean, if you look at some of the data, even when they were The struggle was not a reflection of the games, there were many, there were many results that were against Chelsea at the beginning of the season, but in reality they played better than the results indicated, they simply left themselves too much ground to make up in terms. to qualify for the champions league and I think this is another strong message that is being sent that the Europa League, if it is the Europa League, of course, they could drop out of the conference league if Manchester United win the final of the FA Cup, it is not.

Well, good luck

next

time, you know, you know what the benchmark is. I was also told quite early on, before the League Cup final, that winning the League Cup final wouldn't be enough, so it was. It was going to be judged on league position and I think you know, despite what I alluded to in terms of two points better than last season. I think overall there is reason to be positive about the progress they were making and perhaps most tellingly, all the players are generally on their side, you can just check out the stream of images and posts on social media.

Now, this is a pretty commonplace, obviously, whenever a coach performs, the players want to be seen for who they are. oh I'm really sad to see you go because they don't want us to be seen backwards like some kind of traitor in the mix or whatever but I do I honestly think it's genuine um and someone someone I talked to um I mean to one of the senior players and of course there aren't many of those um he said he's the best coach he's ever worked with. I'm serious and when I heard that I was like wow, that's something, that's something. statement um so I think it was popular and therefore it's a big call for another change.

I also think he sends a great message, given that the new owners came in, took over and said we're going to be different than Roman. Abramovic, we will take care of the process, the

project

and the patience. Well, here we are two years later and some of these players have to play under a different sixth manager in The Dugout if you count Bruno Suta's glorious game against Liverpool last season. um, but still, if you talk about permanent managers, they're two great ones that are gone uh, that's Potter who's gone and now poino's gone, so that's a fourth permanent head coach that they're looking for in two years and you think this is This is not the patience and the project that they talked about and of course one of the things that was different about the Abramovic era and their history of hiring and firing was that it would often lead to trophies, well Chelsea don't have any . trophies, so it's a notable turn of events, but I go back to what I said at the beginning, it's not surprising, Jack, do you think this has been a restorative year for poatina or do you think it's been detrimental?

If you look at the majority of the campaign and some of the perception of how well Chelsea were playing, I think it has been a restorative campaign. In his image because of the last few months, I mean, the fact is that people in football have fallen quite short. memories and they tend to look at what happened more recently and you know, if you had been judging the first half of the season, then it would have really supported that narrative that Patiño chose another, chose another bad club to go to, like PSG. struggling struggling with the kind of politics and demands of elite club football just like he did again, like at PSG, maybe he's better suited to an aspirational club than to a sort of established club, um, but given that The last few months have gone very well and they finished three points behind Tottenham, much better than last season, 19 points better than last season.

I think now the conclusion that people will draw from seeing this is that Poino has proven himself again, he has actually proven that he can instill his ideas, his spirit and his personality, even in a dysfunctional environment, he can get a type of team, You know, let's say, quickly, you can impose your football on them, you can make them play the Portino style, you can get them in shape. he can make them press and so on, so I think I really believe that people will draw their conclusions from the second half of the season, and among those people there will also be clubs that are looking for a new manager, Simon, just before us.

Please continue with who will be next and we will also discuss, you know potentially what's next for po chatino as well. Jack used the phrase "there is a dysfunctional environment, just take us back to the decision making process, who makes these calls or who has the most influence on these key decisions right now, well, Chelsea will always insist as it may not surprise you that it's been a collaborative process and they will definitely point to the co-athletics directors, Paul Inany and Lawrence Stewart, um two hires who came on board early last year to lead the process and lead the review and so I.

As they would have it, the review had actually started last week, looking at all sorts of things, but of course these things have to be approved by the co-owners now Pochettino met Todd Bley for dinner last Friday and left. dropping that little nugget in his final post-match press conference on Sunday and then Bly flying home now apparently for a personal reason Wasn't it seen as something of a split in the camp, although B's comments have contradicted that. what just happened? He has spoken quite enthusiastically about Postino and emphasizes the need for patience, although since then he has been uh described to me as referring to the signings and not the managerial situation and then look, you should not underestimate Clear Lake, who in He actually owns the majority of Chelsea, his board representatives in Badad Bary and Jose Feliciano are the ones you see most often at games, so I don't think it should be that way.

I'm quite surprised that you always see Todd B's face every time Chelsea make a decision or make a signing. I don't think his influence like that of Ebali and Feliciano should be underestimated. They definitely have a key voice in everything that happens. Well, let's now look at who will potentially replace Marcizio Pochettino and Simon. You wrote an article about Athletic. This morning we reported that the club hopes to make an appointment in a matter of days rather than weeks, we will see if that happens because some things can be unpredictable in these types of processes, some of the names that have been mentioned, could they know? take us through them who's in the mix so it ranges from uh brentford uh Thomas Frank um you've got Kiran McKenna of course who um whose change work is um much admired in the game um hasn't been totally ruled out that Derer could be in the frame, although he is on the outskirts.

I think that, as things stand, there is Sebastian Honus in Stuttgart, because of the work he has done intheBundesliga and there are a few more, but I don't think you guys should underestimate that, like any club, it's about them not having made this decision to draw up a shortlist in advance, that doesn't mean they've approached people directly before they made the call but every club has a succession plan in place and I think Chelsea have been considering knowing that this review was coming up, what would happen if the decision was made to part ways and yes it will be days rather than weeks, um and that makes a lot of sense because look, the players want to know, the new signings want to know who they're going to play for and to put an end to that uncertainty, what I would say who they point to next is that it's not going to be one of These, uh, are not going to meet with an ex, a very outspoken ex like José Mourinho, Thomas T and Antonio, what they want is someone who will.

He is fit and he is prepared to accept the structure that the club has been building in recent years, so he is a head coach and that is all you accept, if you are going to appoint a prepared coach, you accept that you are going to work with that coach who says that the signings will be made with a little nod to your direction, but the signings will be made for you and you have to make them work so that whoever comes in has I have to accept that that is the limit of his role, that he does not They're going to have this kind of Sir Alex Ferguson or Yogan Klopp type position where you can make the decisions, it's very much your only cog in this. kind of the big Enterprise operating machine, Jack, when you hear that, short and what might be in store for the next headline, how it makes you feel, it fills you with oh yeah, I think they've figured it out, I think Now they're going to take on some kind of dynasty role with the perfect guy, well, look, I think the first thing to say is that people want, people will want to manage Chelsea or PE people want. to head coach Chelsea, if that's a verb, you know they'll want the money, the glamour, the prestige of European football, Stanford Bridge, etc., all that said: I have some problems with that, the first problem is that if you want succeed.

In English football there is absolutely no substitute for a power, what I call the power manager model, you know, and it's not, and this is not just about Benger Ferguson, The Glory Days, it's Guardiola, Klopp , even Artetta now, as if you want to maintain success. I need a manager who basically doesn't do everything but sets the tone for the whole building and has everyone buy into his ideas and I've seen that I don't think there's any evidence in recent years that you can get players to go that extra mile to a here today gone here today gone tomorrow disposable head coach um however Chelsea will clearly do it their way and you know that's it, they own the club not me so it's completely up to them what they do with He, the second point to highlight is that many clubs have looked around Europe this summer trying to find a coach and have not been able to, they discovered that they entered the market and found the shelves completely blank, you know, look at Bayern Munich , they decided they were going to let Thomas Tel go, they

fail

ed to get nlman, they

fail

ed to get ragn, they failed to get Jabby Alonzo, they tried to keep Thomas Tel, they failed to do that and they are.

Now talking to the company Vincent, he is a very promising young coach, but Burnley got 23 points last year. He looks at Barcelona as if they agreed to let Javi go. They took a look at who they could get. Then I think they looked at Rafa Márquez, her Mexican ex. Defender and now they're stuck with Javi, but maybe they're not so sure, so you united man haven't decided what to do with Eric, tenh um, the market seems pretty empty, so it's not like that and I know, you know that Simon mentioned those names before and I'm sure they are all really good but they don't have as much experience as

poch

ettino do you think none of those guys have a CV comparable to poino and this is

poch

ettino a coach that Some people accuse me of not having a good enough CV and yet I think all I can say is that I think it's a very bold strategy by Chelsea.

I think it is a very novel strategy. Maybe they maybe know something than the rest. The football world doesn't know this and maybe they are about to get some brilliant combination that really manages to outperform and get the most out of their team, but if it was, I mean I'm not a Chelsea fan, but if it were. a Chelsea fan, I think you're probably safer with poino, yeah, on that point, Simon, you know one of Gram Potter's accusations, for example, was that maybe he, he, wasn't Wy enough, maybe Maybe I wouldn't have had shoulders broad enough to deal with it. with a job of that stature, that's what led Pochettino to come in.

One of the names that have been mentioned, we mean you know, we've talked about people like Kieran McKenna, maybe Enzo Moresa, two newly promoted Premier League managers, um some. Of the other contenders do you find capable of not only dealing with the stature of the club but also the complexities of dealing with a very good group, is there a hierarchy there that has its eyes open and watches every move you are making? I have always said that Chelsea is one of the most difficult jobs in football. It's probably not exactly a groundbreaking statement, but you could argue that it's even harder now.

I mean, at least in the Abramovic era there were winners. in that locker room, so you knew, even if your stay was short, that you had a great chance of winning trophies before he left. This is a totally different Chelsea where they are trying to turn these guys into winners but the manager keeps changing so you have to make an impact very quickly um in quite difficult circumstances plus you have a fan base that is ready to rebel is borderline here um now pochettino I wouldn't say there was a lot of affection for his connection with Tottenham, but it's quite telling that the reaction since his departure has generally been one of disappointment because there were signs that perhaps things were changing and also maybe there is a bit of fatigue for the The amount of change that has happened at this club over the last two years has been absolutely extraordinary.

Can someone come in and wave this magic wand where you not only have to get the players on your side but everyone behind the scenes? make the team play entertaining football. You have to get the team to qualify for the Champions League. I mean, it's difficult, but at the same time I think Jack being in third place is also an exciting challenge because maybe if you look at That Squad, you can see that it's on the rise, you can see the development in a Nicholas Jackson, um I give in, yeah, it cost a lot of money, it took a while to get going, but it looks pretty cool, um, I could go on, um, there it is.

Cole Palmer I mean, who wouldn't want to work with Cole Palmer after the season he just had, so there's plenty of reason for optimism, but my concern is what will the club do if they're in 11th place in March? A long way from the Champions League, they've basically sent the signal that if they get rid of that, they'll make another change, now they've made a stick for their own backs, so no matter what the manager says next season, it's already hour. patience etc, we're all going to think, well, you're on borrowed time and one of Simon's subplots um in terms of the team and also linked to Pochettino's position was that there could well be a need this summer, as there has been. over the last 12 months due to the PSR's limitations in selling one of the local talents like Connor Gallagher, perhaps Trevor Calabar, but then Gallaga goes and establishes himself as a key cog in Pochettino's wheel.

Now he's gone, the manager does that, maybe he'll make you I think they're going to tell the new guy, unfortunately, you'll have to do this without Galaga or without Shalar, what's your prediction on how the team is going to change this summer? I don't think the new manager has I think as has been shown Chelsea had tried to sell Conag Gallagher some windows now or certainly had been open to selling him and that was the case with Poino wanting to keep him so you know, I'll do it. . I'll be quite surprised and pleasantly surprised if Giger ends up staying because this is kind of a repeat of the Mason Mountain scenario from 12 months ago, a guy who has until the last year of his contract can obviously count as pure profit if he sells. and will certainly attract many interested clubs due to the season he has just had.

He was the only Chelsea player to make more than 50 appearances this season and certainly comes with a strong England international too, but it would also be quite a bit. a good PR strategy by the club to somehow reach an agreement um in the 11th Hour um which I wouldn't completely rule out um because Gallago would obviously give him the opportunity he would definitely choose to stay at Stan of Bridge final question For you, Jack, and that doesn't depend on what Chelsea are going to do next or this summer, but on what Pochettino wants to do now because, as we've discussed before, there are a lot of jobs up for grabs that you think he would be a better fit for.

What we don't know at this time is if he wants to go straight back to work. He took just over a year off after leaving Tottenham before moving to PSG. He took almost a year off between leaving PSG and signing for Chelsea. it could be that after he retires from the season he wants a time out, um, if he wants to work, then as I said, there are many clubs that are looking for coaches at the moment and that have not been able to identify candidates better than po chatino for me, The most obvious would be Manchester United, we still don't know what they are going to do with Eric Tenan Hog.

You know, Poino has been linked with Man United for years, dating back to that famous lunch with Saint Alex Ferguson eight years ago. has been constantly linked with United, it never quite worked out for various reasons, you know, United Poino is too Poino wanted to remain loyal to Tottenham after Vangala Mourinho was sacked after his father was sacked. I think United were a little bit reluctant to get involved in a fight with PSG and then obviously in 2022 they went for ten Hao Poino. I think, in hindsight, I think Poino probably would have done a better job the last two years.

I think he would fit well there. I mean, not really. I know exactly what the type of uh Jim Brailsford Ashworth Barard that Cox's leadership group will be if I haven't left anyone out, what exactly they would want in a head coach, but you know you can see that Poina would take a lot of boxes, he's , You know? has worked in the Premier League is a big success at Tottenham young players playing style all that sort of stuff um so I think to me from the outside that would make sense but if it's not there I'm sure there would be something else You know, if that's following Coloran Chelot Real Madrid, which is a job he's been linked with many times in the past, maybe Barcelona, ​​maybe a big job in Italy, where there's been interest in him before , but it was never that close, so, yeah.

Look, ultimately it's a good time to be an unemployed manager, not that it seems like there aren't many of them around anymore, so I don't think any unemployed manager has much time before their phone starts ringing, Jack , great thanks. Thank you very much, as always, and also to you, Simon, don't forget that there will be continuous coverage of this story and all the preparation for the Euro Cup, the America del Cobre and the transfer window, as well as Athletic, thank you very much for hear. Don't forget to rate and follow the podcast if you want to see more episodes of the show, subscribe to the channel, we will be joined by people like David Orstein Matt Slater Adam Crafton Kyle Anka and many more throughout the season if you want.

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