May 12 — Sec. Blinken, Sens. Bernie Sanders and Lindsey Graham

this Sunday Biden's Red Line President Biden warns Israel that he will cut off some American weapons if the Israeli military launches a large-scale assault inside the city of Rafa, where more than 1 million Palestinians are sheltered. They go to Rafa. I am not supplying the weapons they have. It has been used historically to deal with Rafa Israel defiantly saying they are willing to fight without our help if Israel has to be alone we will be alone we will give Israel what it needs to fight the war that the American people cannot afford to lose wants an immediate ceasefire and they don't want any more American military aid going to the war machine is the relationship between the US and Israel at a crisis point my guest this morning Secretary of State Anthony Lincoln, Republican Senator Lindsey Graham of South Carolina and independent Sen.

Bernie of Vermont more legal storm after ruling that Donald Trump violated a gag order 10 times Judge presiding over Trump's criminal trial threatens jail time if he violates gag order again if you say something even a little out of line, they want to put you in jail and after Stormy Daniels takes the stand describing her sexual encounter with Mr. Trump, the judge rejects the defense team's request for a mistrial, joined me for insights and analysis from NBC News White House correspondent Monica Alba, former White House press secretary Jen Saki and bureau editor Steven Hayes, welcome to NBC News' Sunday is Meet the Press in Washington, the longest-running show in television history.

This is Meet the Press with Kristen Welker. Good Sunday morning and happy Mother's Day, today the eyes of the world are on Gaza as the Israeli army expands its operations, including ordering further evacuations of parts of Rafa, a densely populated area in southern Gaza, to Even though President Biden has begun warning that he will withhold weapons if they launch a major operation, he says 300,000 people have fled Rafa over the last week and last week the White House stopped a large shipment of 2,500-pound bombs to Israel and on Wednesday President Biden warned that the pause could extend to even more weapons even as the administration continues to send smaller weapons, it is the president's biggest break with the Israeli government yet and Mr Biden made a surprising admission that US-supplied bombs have killed civilians in Gaza.

They have killed civilians in Gaza as a result of those bombs and other ways in which they attack population centers and they made it clear that if they go to Rafa, they have not gone to Rafa yet, they are going to Rafa. I am not supplying the weapons that have been used historically to deal with Rafa to deal with the cities; It's a notable evolution from how the president spoke about civilian deaths in October; Gaza's Hamas-controlled Health Ministry says Israeli forces have killed more than 6,000. Palestinians, including 2,700 CH children, previously asked Netanyahu to minimize civilian casualties. Do these figures tell you that he is ignoring that message?

What they tell me is that I have no idea that the Palestinians are telling the truth about how many people are dying. I am sure they have killed innocent people and it is the price of fighting a war. I think we should be incredibly careful. I think not, we Israelis should be incredibly careful, but I have no confidence in the figure that the Palestinians are using now on Friday. The department published a report criticizing Israel for failing to protect civilians in Gaza, saying results on the ground, including high levels of civilian casualties, raise substantial questions. The report said it is reasonable to assess that Israel has violated international law in Gaza, but said the United States has not done so.

I have been unable to verify cases that would justify withholding military aid and that finding allows the United States to continue supplying weapons to Israel in response to President Biden. Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu said Israel is prepared to go it alone. I've known Joe Biden for many years, so 40 years and more, you know, we often had our agreements, but we've had our disagreements, we've been able to overcome them. I hope we can overcome them now, but we will do what we have to do to protect our country and that means. protect our future and that means we will defeat Hamas, including Rafa, we have no choice and now joining me is Secretary of State Anthony, blink, secretary, blink, welcome back to Meet the Press morning, thank you very much for being here.

I want to start with that state department report that did not reach a definitive conclusion about whether Israel has violated international law Amnesty International says of the report this is the quote international version of sending thoughts and prayers Democratic Senator Chris Van Holland says it dodges the Final questions that the report was designed to determine, Mr. Secretary, is the United States trying to avoid holding Israel accountable for its actions? No, we don't have a double standard. We treat Israel as one of our closest allies and partners just as we treat any other country, even when evaluating something like international humanitarian law and its compliance with that law.

I would invite people to read the report. You can see for yourself everything we have set out in the report. The report also makes clear that this is an incredibly complex military environment. If we have an enemy that intentionally integrates with civilians hiding under and inside schools, mosques, apartment buildings, shooting at Israeli forces from those places, it is very, very difficult in the heat of war to make a definitive assessment on any incident. individual, but what the report concludes is that, based on the totality of the harm that has been done to children, women and men caught in this Famas crossfire, it is reasonable to conclude that there are cases in which Israel has acted in ways that are not consistent with international humanitarian law.

At the same time, Kristen, we continue to investigate each of these incidents, but critically so does Israel. There are hundreds, as we understand it, of open investigations into particular incidents that have taken place since October 7. There are criminal investigations that are In the future, Israel, unlike many other countries, has the means and the will to try to control itself, so we must let that develop, but our own process that has been underway for many months to analyze individual incidents. that will also continue and when we can reach definitive conclusions we will do so, but it is very difficult to do so in the middle of a war and I hear you say how complex the situation on the ground is, but here we are in the seventh month of this war Mr.

Secretary, How is it possible that the State Department with all its resources has not been able to reach a definitive conclusion on this critical question of whether Israel has again violated international law precisely because we are still in the middle of that war, war and making these evaluations in time? real when we don't have people on the ground when we also have to make sure that we are getting information from all stakeholders, that takes time and we want to make sure that we can reach definitive conclusions, but as the report makes clear given the totality of the damage that is has done to civilians, children, women and men, given that Israel clearly has procedures, rules, regulations, laws that influence the decisions about objectives that they make in the way in which to behave, but the results that we have seen in terms of the horrific loss of innocent civilian life, it is reasonable to assess, as we say in the report, that there are cases where they have acted in a manner incompatible with their obligations under international humanitarian law. law, those investigations continue both for us and for Israel, let's zoom out a little and talk about our politics.

The United States has urged Israel not to invade Rafa, but there are already troops on the ground and this weekend we learned that more than 300,000 people are being evacuated. President Biden threatened to withhold certain weapons if Netanyahu attacks Rafa in a large-scale invasion while sending other weapons. Big Picture Why should Israel believe that the United States is willing to back its threats? Well, first let's back up a minute. No one has done more to defend Israel when it matters than President Biden, he was there in the days after October 7, the first president to go to Israel in the middle of a conflict when Iran mounted an unprecedented attack on Israel , Some weeks ago. 300 projectiles, including ballistic missiles, launched against Israel, the United States participated for the first time in its active defense and President Biden assembled a coalition of countries that helped defend Israel, so no one has done more than Joe Biden at the same time than us.

What we have seen in recent months is deep concern on our part about the possibility of a major military operation in Rafa, given the harm it would cause to civilians. There are more than 1.4 million Gazans in Rafa, most of whom have moved from other parts of Gaza in the absence of a credible plan to remove them from the Path of Danger and support them. The president has been clear for some time that we could not and would not support a major military operation in Rafa now at the same time. While we share Israel's goal of making sure that Hamas can no longer rule Gaza, that it is demilitarized, that Israel has its leaders, we continue to support it, but there is a better way to achieve this than to go headlong to Rafa, that is what we are talking about. about uh with Israel now we have a better way to do it uh we are in talks with them about that, but the president who answered a question was very clear about where we are with respect to Rafa and what we would or would not do in the case of to go with a major military operation, I hear you say that you have not yet seen a credible plan for how Israel would go to Rafa and mitigate civilian casualties.

Is it fair to say that President Biden and Prime Minister Netanyahu are not watching? face to face right now there are two things: one is that, as the president said and as we said in many conversations over the last few months, there has to be a credible plan for civilians, have you seen a credible plan? Another thing that is important is that we have also not seen a plan for what will happen the day after this war in Gaza ends, because right now the trajectory that Israel is on is that even if it goes in and takes intense measures in Rafa , there will still be There will be thousands of armed Hamas that left, we have seen it in areas that Israel has cleared in the north, even in Conun Hamas is coming back, so the trajectory right now is to go into uh toaa even to deal with these battalions remaining, especially in absence. of a plan for civilians risks causing terrible harm to civilians and not solving the problem, a problem that we both want to solve, which is to ensure that Hamas cannot rule Gaza again.

Israel is on a path to potentially inheriting a heavily armed insurgency. left or whether it leaves a vacuum filled with chaos filled with anarchy and probably filled by Hamas, we have been talking to them about a much better way to achieve a lasting result, lasting security both in Gaza itself and much more broadly in the region, um, those talks continue and that's what partners do, that's what allies do, we're clear-eyed and we tell each other the truth as we see it, we keep American interests in mind first and foremost, too We have Israel's interests in mind and there may be a difference of vision on how best to achieve them, but that is also the nature of the relationship that I want to deepen with you on President Biden's threat to withhold weapons, what exactly his Red Line, Mr.

Secretary, what would prompt you to say, "I'm now, withhold arms, look, we don't talk about red lines when it comes to Israel, we talk again. President Biden did talk about a red line, although Mr. Secretary, respectfully, let me be, yes, let me be clear, I would push you to make that decision. Of course, first we have been holding back and are in active talks with Israel about the supply of heavy or high payload weapons, large bombs, because of the concerns we have about the effect that these weapons can have when used. In a dense urban environment like Rafa, we are discussing that with Israel right now.

Second, what the president said is that if Israel conducts a major military operation, Rafa, in that case, there are certain systems that we will not provide to Israel. That would help that effort because it's something we don't want to be a part of given the harm it would cause to civilians and, again, it wouldn't achieve a lasting and effective outcome for Israel and its security, that's what the president said. We have said that in conversations with our Israeli partners. It's unfortunate that that leaked, but the president candidly responded to a question when asked about it. Mr.

Secretary, I want to ask you about the latest news on the agreement toget the hostages freed for a ceasefire we know the CIA director has returned home if those talks fell apart because Prime Minister Netanyahu was threatening and is taking steps to attack Rafa. Look, it's important first of all to remind ourselves that Hamas could have ended this on the first day, well, this should never have happened, there was actually a ceasefire before October 7, on October 6, which Hamas destroyed of the most barbaric way humanly imaginable, but every day after that, Hamas could have decided to hand over the hostages and stop hiding behind. the civilians put down their weapons and this would all be over, there is still that possibility, the quickest way for this to end is for Hamas to hand over the hostages, we will get a ceasefire on which we can build and build something more lasting. and more lasting uh the different teams continue um uh talking about them it remains our opinion that the quickest way to reach a ceasefire, the quickest way to bring the hostages home is through an agreement and we are determined every day to chase it and try to make it happen.

I think it can be questioned. If Hamas really wants to achieve this, it would also be the best way to ensure that we can actually increase humanitarian assistance and better protect civilians in Gaza. Hamas reports being interested that its actions certainly demonstrate the opposite. Okay, secretary blinking. Thank you very much for your time this morning. We really appreciate it when we return. Independent Senator Bernie Sanders of Vermont joins me. The next welcome will be while tensions rise on university campuses. Mount students protested the war in Gaza at graduation ceremonies across the country Saturday from Berkeley. From California to Chapel Hill, North Carolina, to Madison, Wisconsin, dozens of students walked out of the Virginia Commonwealth University ceremony as Governor Glenn Yunan delivered the commencement address.

I'm joined now by independent Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders. Senator Sanders, welcome back to Meet the Press. I will be with you. We appreciate you being here on a busy Sunday morning. I want to start with your reaction to that State Department report and what you just heard from the Secretary of State, who defended the report, the fact that no definitive conclusion was reached. He also said that he has not seen a definitive plan from Israel to attack Rafa without mitigating civilian casualties. What was your conclusion? Senator, well, Krist and I respect Tony a lot. Blinkin, he has an incredibly difficult job, but the reality is as I think.

Any objective observer knows that Israel has broken domestic law, it has broken American law, and in my opinion Israel should not receive even five cents more in American military aid. Look, the facts are pretty clear. Kamas is a terrible and disgusting terrorist organization that started this war. but what Israel has done in the last seven months is not only gone to war against Hamas, but it has gone to war against the entire Palestinian people and the results have been absolutely catastrophic. I mean, Kristen, we're not just talking about 35,000 dead Palestinians and 77,000 wounded, 2/3 of which are women and children, that's not the way to conduct a war in a civilized society to the extent that war is civilized, we are talking about 60% of the homes in Gaza have been destroyed, the civil infrastructure, that is water, eh, that.

Is there sewage now running into the streets? There is no electricity. You are talking about a systematic destruction of the health system. All the universities in Gaza have been bombed and, what is more alarming right now, according to humanitarian organizations, we are seeing the likelihood of hundreds of thousands of children facing famine. The Foreign Assistance Law is very, very clear 6201 the provision that any entity, any state, any country that blocks us from humanitarian aid violates the law and should no longer receive military aid from the United States, that is precisely what Israel has done. Done Senator, let me press you a little because I hear you say that you think Israel should not get another tip and yet 26 House Democrats wrote a letter to the White House saying they are deeply concerned about the message that the administration is sending Hamas. and other Iranian-backed terrorist proxies, withholding weapons from Israel risks prolonging this war and weakening Israel's hand against Hamas now, I understand that all the Republicans, as I understand it, want to give huge amounts of money to Israel, I guess Many Republicans want Israel to attack Rafa despite the incredible humanitarian destruction that will cause and there are Democrats who also feel the same, but here's what I'll tell you Kristen, uh, that's not how the American people feel, uh , poll after poll suggests that The American people want an immediate ceasefire, they want massive humanitarian aid to arrive.

The people of our country do not want to be complicit in the famine of hundreds of thousands of children and, by the way, when we talk about the international community, we are increasingly isolated. terms of our support for Israel, which is becoming a pariah nation, but, Senator, I mean, is there a non-military way to get rid of Hamas given the threat they pose, given that they say their goal is to destroy the existence of Israel? You are absolutely right Look, Hamas is exactly like that, that is their goal, it is difficult, I don't want to minimize this, so the goal is to defeat Kamas but not destroy or cause the enormous amount of destruction that we are seeing now in Gaza and I hope that the future for the Palestinian people is a new generation of Palestinian leaders who focus on allowing the people to have a state of their own.

We have to support a two-state solution that improves the economy rebuild the economy uh that's the long-term goal Senator, I have to ask you about some comments you made this week saying that the Middle East, the Israel-Hamas war could be the Biden's Vietnam, arguing that politically speaking, this could cost him the election. Of Biden's new warning to Israel, does he stand by those comments or does he believe that the picture has now changed well? I certainly support the president saying that it is absurd to provide Israel with 2,000 pound bombs that could level an entire block in the middle of Rafa, which is an incredibly densely populated area, so the president is clearly right.

What worries me is that this war in Gaza right now is not only strongly opposed by young people, but also by a large number of people in the Democratic base, so still in Vietnam do you still think that this could be your Vietnam? I am strongly supporting the president because on many domestic issues he has done an excellent job, but I think there are many people in the Democratic base who are concerned about his support for Israel in this war, Senator, very quickly, you spoke and announced this week he's running for re-election, of course, this is coming, he's 82 years old, I don't have to tell you, but the age is obviously obvious. a big problem in the presidential elections, are you worried that age could be a political liability for you?

Well, look, I think age is a factor, experience is a factor, achievement is a factor, and most importantly, a factor in politics is what you and I believe. I hope that the people of Vermont and the people of the United States look at the candidates as a whole, but I must also tell you that I would not have run, I announced my intention to seek reelection unless I felt pretty good. With the exception of a week off in Co, I haven't missed a day of work in the last three years, so I feel pretty good, that's what your staff says, they never take vacations, we're almost out of time. time.

I'll try one more time, just yes or no, do you still think the Israel-Hamas war risks potentially being Biden's Vietnam? I think a lot of people are very disappointed, well, it's in him politically, yes, of course, it's okay. Have it Senator Bernie Sanders thank you very much for joining me this morning I really appreciate the conversation and when we get back Republican Senator Lindsey Graham of South Carolina joins me, welcome back Senate Republicans are criticizing the president President Biden for pausing the delivery of high payload bombs to Israel at a Wednesday hearing on the defense department's budget South Carolina Sen.

Lindsey Graham grilled Pentagon leaders on whether we stop the weapons needed to destroy the enemies of the state of Israel in a time of the great pharaoh, we will pay a price, this is obscene. absurd to give Israel what it needs to fight the war they can't afford to lose this is Hiroshima and Nagasaka on steroids and Senator Lindsey Graham joins me now Senator Graham welcome back to the press meeting happy Memorial Day Mother, thank you Senator, I appreciate it very much. Look, you have been quite clear, as we just heard there, that you oppose President Biden's threat to withhold military aid if Israel invades Rafa, but let me ask you this question: why Shouldn't Israel's war against Hamas proceed in a more precise way? with a clear plan to mitigate civilian deaths in Gaza.

Well, I think it is impossible to mitigate civilian deaths in Gaza as long as Hamas uses its own population as human shields. I have never seen such brazen efforts by an enemy Hamas in the history of war. to put several people at risk and the last thing you want to do is reward this behavior. They have weapons in mind, firing artillery rounds from apartment buildings. They put senators in charge under the hospitals to maximize civilian casualties while Israel tries to destroy the country. terrorist group you don't want to reward this by restricting weapons to the victim of their attack but let me say this uh this is Mother's Day happy Mother's day but this is a difficult time for the world what the senator said Sanders Not one more cent Military aid to the United States is the most dangerous irresponsible statement in the history of the relationship with the United States.

This is not Vietnam. Israel is fighting for their lives. Hamas says they will do it again and again. They are dedicated to destruction. of the Jewish State does not help the Palestinian people Iran, its great Satan promises to destroy Israel, so does Hezbollah Israel is surrounded by forces terrorist groups want to destroy the Jewish State, they do not help the Palestinians, they this is September 11 and Pearl Harbor everyone unites To leave Israel under these circumstances would be scandalous, it would be dangerous and the Republicans are going to fight Bernie Sanders and the team. Senator, let me press you a little bit because, of course, the United States has provided Israel with tens of thousands of bombs. and missiles alone to demonstrate some $14 billion in military spending last month, for which the United States, including the IDF, have said they have given him an extraordinary amount of support.

I want to ask you, do you think Israel is in any way willing to listen to the work? with President Biden and is he trustworthy? Let me ask it this way. In a poll this week, more than half of Israelis said they thought Prime Minister Netanyahu's primary consideration was his own political survival. You said that he trusts Israel more than the US Secretary of Defense. But why should Americans trust Netanyahu to put US interests first? Americans should do their part to help Israel against an existential threat. The only thing Israel and the United States have in common.

Hamas would attack us if they could. Iran is the largest state sponsor of terrorism. It screams death to the United States and Hezbollah is in the same camp. I have never heard anyone in Israel chant death to the United States. America, the people Israel is fighting against is hell-bent on destroying all Jews, this is Holocaust Remembrance Month, for the love of God we must unequivocally support Israel. yes, work with them to limit civilian casualties, which they want to do, I know they do, they have a whole battalion dedicated to it, but this idea of ​​withholding weapons from Israel rewards Hamas' tactics of putting civilians at risk, here is my statement to the administration.

He said: sit down with Israel, keep the weapons flowing, and if you can, come up with a plan that gets us all where we need to be. I spoke to Israel this morning, they are discussing with the Biden administration a path forward. I have some hope that we can jump. Let's get over this impasse, but let's not let Bernie Sanders lead this war. Bernie Sanders and his squad are crazy when it comes to how to defend Israel. He just said on National Television that they would cut every penny of military aid to the Jewish State, which, threatened with oblivion, closed it. these people this decision was political he is trying to appease the radical left Senator Bess just to be clear the administration's position is not to cut every penny and I guess the question is why does Israel need the bombs moremassive weapons that can potentially wipe out an entire Blockade to fight this war, why can't it be more precise?

Listen, this is what I would say about fighting an enemy that wants to kill you and your family. Why did we drop two nuclear bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki to end a war? war that we could not afford to lose, apparently they do not understand what Israel is facing. They face three groups. Iran, which has received $80 billion in aid. When Trump left office, they were exporting 300 barrels of oil a day. It's 1.3 uh Mill a day, Biden has made them rich and they are taking that money to kill all the Jews so when we are facing destruction as a nation after Pearl Harbor fighting the Germans and the Japanese we decided to put end to the war.

By bombing Hiroshima Nagasaki with nuclear weapons, that was the right decision. Give Israel the bombs it needs to end the war it cannot afford to lose and work with them to minimize casualties. Senator, that military officer would say there has been so much technology. since those bombs were dropped, for that same reason Israel and other developed countries can be more precise, but let me ask it this way because President Biden is not the first president to use arms shipments to try to influence Israeli politics, as you know. Former President Ronald Reagan withheld weapons on multiple occasions to impact Israel's military actions, did President Reagan show that using US military aid as leverage can actually be an effective way to slow down and impact Israel's policy when you tell the What world are you going to? restricting the supply of weapons to the Jewish State, which is fighting a three-front war for its survival, emboldens Iran, emboldens Hamas.

The gentleman is probably excited about the idea that there is daylight between the United States and Israel, the hostage deal is more difficult, this is the worst decision. Uh, in the history of the US-Israel relationship it is denying weapons at a time when the Jewish State could be destroyed, so this is what I would say: there is some hope that we can overcome it. This is non-negotiable. for the destruction of Hamas, no one in Israel will allow Hamas to remain militarily or politically when this is over, how to get there is subject to negotiation. My problem is not with the weapons that Israel is using.

My problem is with Hamas' tactics. is using and the idea that the United States would not send a penny of aid, echoed by the United States Senator when all the Jews are trying to be killed by radical Islamic groups, tells us where we are as a nation: The Republican Party stands with Israel without apology. Well, historians would say why it's okay for Reagan to do it and not President Biden, but let me ask you why it's okay. Can I say this? Why is it okay for the United States not to drop two nuclear bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki? to end their existential threat War, why was it okay for us to do that?

I thought it was okay for Israel to do whatever it took to survive as a senator of the Jewish state again. Military officials say that technology has changed, but let me ask you how these military officials that you're talking about work, let me ask you something completely rubbish, let me ask you something that I know you care a lot about and that is the Saudi normalization agreement. How would a ground invasion affect Rafa, what you think is fundamental to achieving an agreement for normalization in the region with Saudi Arabia, really good question number one. I want to continue with this because you asked Tony a good question.

What will happen the day after with my friends in Israel? What will happen the day after with Tony? What will happen the day after me? I want the Arab world, the United Arab Emirates and Saudi Arabia to come in and give hope to the Palestinian people once we destroy Hamas. I want normalization between Saudi Arabia and Israel and that is Iran's worst nightmare. That's why I think it happened on October 7th. This is what's happening when you deny Israel's weapons, uh, weapons, the Saudis are starting to wonder if we're a good ally, should I sign this?

Will they turn against me if I get into a conflict? So I think the biggest threat to the agreement is to use Rafa's invasion. uh, the agreement as a negotiating tool to push back against Israel. I'm still going to move forward with the deal. I hope that we can put this problem with arms transfers behind us and we can return to establishing the conditions under which we can normalize between Saudi Arabia and Israel. and it is part of that, to have a new opportunity for the Palestinians, where they will have a better life when the Arabs help them rebuild Gaza in the West Bank with a new government structure.

I will not give up, I have simply never been more concerned than now about the signals we are sending to our enemies, what we are doing to Israel is unconscionable and must stop. We need to stand with Israel unapologetically very quickly. Senator. Before I let you go, a quick question. about 2024, will you accept the results of the 2024 election, no matter who wins? Yes, I will accept them. I think you know there are no massive cheats. I accepted 2020, this is what I would say President Trump is ready to win, he said last night when he arrives. To Israel I will support them I will give them what they need Bernie Sanders is wrong about the polls here the majority of Americans 80% are on the side of Israel 20% unfortunately are in Congress and the State Department that side of Hamas that is the problem with this war okay Senator Sanders our time is up Senator Graham I must say that you just invoked the other senator's name we are often confused we are often confused yes Senator Lindsy Graham thank you very much, thank you very much, thank you very much, very much thank you.

Join us when we return Olympic swimmer Michael Phelps talks about his struggle with depression Welcome back May is Mental Health Awareness Month and 23-time gold medalist Michael Phelps, the most decorated Olympian of all time , talks about his battle with depression Phelps sat down He sat down with me for an instant conversation and talked about how he dealt with his mental health issues and his advocacy for others. When did you first realize that you were really struggling with depression? I would say probably 2004 2004 was my first taste of the post-Olympic blues, you know, coming out of such a high situation and basically you get to like the edge of the cliff and you're cool, now I guess I'll have to wait four more years to have the opportunity to do so.

Again, it's true, and for those who didn't have a successful Olympic Games, those four years can seem like an absolute eternity, so for me 2004 was my first 2008 was my second um Taste of post-Olympic depression um why get out of that euphoria after doing something you established yourself as you set out to do your whole life like me my goal was to do something that no one else had done before and I did it at the age of 19 20 or so did you know it was depression or not? I just think I feel a little bad uh I think at the time you know I would say as a male athlete you know I could tell something was wrong but I think I saw it as a sign of weakness and if I shared something to the respect, it would give my competitors an advantage and I'm not trying to do it right like I don't want to give my competitors an advantage.

I'm trying to be better than anyone else for a long time. I saw it as a weakness, so I had to learn that vulnerability is a good thing and at first it was scary, but I learned that vulnerability only means change and for me it was a big change if you or someone you know is struggling. or in case of crisis help is available, call or text 988 or chat at 988 liftime line.org. You can see much more of my conversation with Michael Phelps next Sunday here on Meet the Press and tune in to the Paris Olympics this summer on NBC and peacock. when we return, Donald Trump's former lawyer Michael Cohen is expected to take the stand this week, the panel is next welcome back, the panel is here NBC News White House Correspondent Monica Alba Jen saki, former secretary of White House press, inside anchor with Jen Saki and the author of the new book says more lessons from work the White House and the world and Stephen Hayes editor of the office and Jen here we have your book with us happy Mother's Day to you and Monica we will have a signing after the program Monica starts with us Obviously, this extraordinary warning from President Biden this week saying that he would cut off military aid has obviously been the focus of all of these conversations that I've had this morning, which prompted him to make that warning this week. buildup of political pressure was it your own frustration with Israel?

Well, White House officials will tell you that for decades this president has made foreign policy decisions based on National Security and not politics, but in all my conversations with Biden's advisers over the course of this important one last week They admitted that it's impossible to ignore the political ramifications here and they certainly talk about that in the context of this policy shift of drawing that line as you were discussing and it's very notable that they point out that Israel has the weapons it needs. Going forward with this large-scale invasion in Rafa, for which the president threatens to withhold that military aid, is largely symbolic in many ways and is political messaging and signaling at this point in the war and occurs at this broader context of democratic divisions within.

In the president's own party, as you just saw in your interview with Senator Sanders, there were progressives who had been very critical of the president during this war and who now praise this measure and there are others who really are not convinced and who say that this does not work. It doesn't mean much right now given the high number of civilian casualties and the real lack of humanitarian aid coming to Gaza, yes, and that divides Jen. I mean, it's so hard on the campaign for those close to President Biden that you really think he should have spoken up. and I did before and I think, having said that, as far as the diplomatic aspect goes, I mean, I worked for the Secretary of State for a couple of years.

I spent many 30 times in Israel. I spent a lot of time in those negotiating rooms with Prime Minister Netanyahu. I think the politics of this are very difficult to predict. There is no doubt. There is a lot of activism on campus. There is anti-Semitism in the country. There is a lot of political dynamics. The best thing they can do is reach a halt. the fire that's the best they can do and I'll say that just to add to what Monica said, if you look at what President Biden has been doing, what he's been doing is increasing.

The influence here, has been having tougher private conversations, some of them being read aloud with Prime. Minister Netanyahu, this is the use of influence, this is how diplomacy works, it is threatening if you do not change your behavior, this is what will happen, but it is not moving away from the security of Israel, it is using influence to keep them out in a crisis. city ​​that has a million people, that's what they're trying to do right now, but it may not be, it may not be moving away from the security of Israel, but it is undermining the security of Israel and President Biden himself He said it in October, in the days after the attack, the more separation there is between the United States and Israel, the greater strength it will give to Hamas, Hezbollah and the enemies of Israel and I think that, unfortunately, both in words and in what we saw of the Biden Administration this week was this weakening, it's been a seven.

During the month-long process, it came out very strong at first and now I think, given the reasons that Senator Sanders has expressed, given the fact that there is this buildup of domestic political pressure on Joe Biden, we are seeing him create this space in a way that I believe is likely to intensify civilian harm and prolong the conflict overall. I think this is a very misreading and I politics, how do you really think politics is important, it is also unpredictable and you have to be and watch it closely. potential for the Israeli army to enter a city of a million people where 300,000 people have already left, no one has been more supportive of the Israeli government's Israel recently to the frustration of many Democrats than Joe Biden, but I think the alternative of not using leverage is that the Israeli army is going on an absolutely leveling Rafa level killing hundreds of thousands of people that will not destroy Hamas.

Any international official will tell you that and there is no plan for the day after. That's not actually a story of effective overnight strategy that the United States is withholding key intelligence information about the Hamas leadership in Rafa and about the tunnels. How does withholding that information make it more likely that Israel will achieve its military objectives and that debate, I think, is the crux of what you're both saying, which is what we're talking about how it's fought.this war and, Monica, this comes in the context of this campaign that is escalating and of course the question is where does this go down the road?

How do we see it developing down the road? In fact, I have some new reports, not necessarily in relation to the war in the Middle East, but in relation to how the Biden campaign is trying to really step up and galvanize his supporters in the context of some of this dwindling support. , and that's the reminder here. that we're just a few months away from this critical election and the Biden campaign is trying to wage that fight while facing this very serious challenge overseas, but in terms of fundraising for a long time, the Democrats, the DNC, have had the cash advantage that is about to look very different for Republicans with former President Trump and the RNC now that he has clinched the nomination, they may raise funds differently, which is why you will see Biden's team try to push some of those fundraising efforts with some stars that are We will do a big fundraiser with George Clooney, Julia Roberts, former President Obama, in mid-June in Los Angeles and there will also be a fundraiser with former President Bill Clinton and former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton earlier this summer.

They see a direct line of huge halls, from events like that to being able to build infrastructure, open offices, hire key staff, run ads in those critical battleground states, where yes, some of those young voters who are so disillusioned with what what they are seeing right now with the president's handling of the war. It could be pivotal, it could make a difference, so they're going to bet on Stephen, of course, the backdrop of the Biden campaign that depends in some way on the power of this celebrity is that we are seeing Donald Trump in court day after day this week Michael Cohen takes the stand last week Stormmy Daniels, the adult film star at the center of his hush money trial, was on the stand, she was in New Jersey overnight campaigning targeting these legal battles, how do you see all of this playing out in the future?

Do you think these legal battles will alienate some of those critical moderate Independent Women voters he needs to win? Yeah, I think they probably will if you look at the speech he gave in Wildwood, New Jersey, last night he was giving a speech to his base. was trying to rally his base, it was very clear that he was saying look this is what Joe Biden does this is the department of justice this is stopping me from campaigning this is election interference and that is a message that his Bas is not only receptive to but he mobilizes but I think there's a big risk here, I mean, you're talking about a trial that involves hush money payments to a porn star that he had an affair with while he was cheating on his wife, so that's not what it has to be done. you want the news to appeal to those types of voters and the voters, the critical voters are, frankly, those Nikki Haley voters.

She received many rumors. Could she potentially be Trump's running mate? He says no, he's not considering it, but those are the voters that could make a difference in this election, in reality, there will be a lot that is going to be a close around six states, everything makes a difference to be clear, but to Monica's point, the Biden team feels that they can, they can already do the organizational things, that the Trump team is going to be a little behind, definitely, the ring of funds is going to close. As Monica has reported just to add to what Stephen pointed out, I mean there have been polls of representatives that suggest that if Trump is convicted, he could make a difference.

I guess we'll see in terms of how people perceive it, but I think it suggests that he had a woman on a stand I recognize she's a former movie star talked about fainting when the former president of the United States was having sex with her talked about that this is the same man who also thinks women shouldn't make decisions about their own healthcare, those things do impact people or suggest that they don't. I think we may underestimate the women's movement that we'll see, but I think the character aspect of this essay is what I'm interested in seeing how it affects people.

Yes, and the polls are getting stricter. You guys, fantastic conversation, really appreciate it and again, happy Mother's Day. I hope everyone, thank you, thank you and that's all for today. Thank you very much for watching, happy Mother's Day to all the moms. We'll be back next week because if it's Sunday it's Meet the Press, thanks for watching, stay up to date on breaking news and top stories on the NBC News app or follow us on social media.