The Science of Gender Dysphoria (with NOAHFINNCE) | Sci Guys Podcast #157

anyway um for example the example that they gave as biologists was the one that we have talked about which is about um which gametes your body produces for sure, which seems strange, but if your body does not produce gametes or if your body is capable, if your body potentially has the ability to produce gametes, yes, my point is that ultimately it's really irrelevant, it's really not. People in the world, my point is that there are multiple different ways that we measure sex correctly or create ways that we assign sex to someone, yeah, and I saw something the other day get really hurt. above that someone said that a doctor assigns your sex and that tells me that they literally know nothing because doctors really assign sex and it says so in this protocol that I read also because they look at the genitals and say which one is this and if they can't just decide They perform surgery on intersex people and the genitals can be ambiguous and they can make mistakes.

The doctors assign you your sex. There are different things we do to search for sex. There are primary and secondary characteristics of the sexual character that we talk about, there are chromosomes and there are hormones. Trans people can change most of them except chromosomes, and that's why you see transphobes harping on chromosomes as the determining determinants of sex even though they don't. I don't even know what their chromosomes are, there's a good chance that, in fact, I'd say there's almost a 100 chance that at least some of the very, very vocal transphobic transpo are actually some kind of chromosomally intersex and I have no idea.

That's more common than having red hair, isn't it? Yeah, wow, ginger transfer told me if we have a redhead, a trans person, which one of us is intersex, but my point is that ultimately there are a lot of different ways you can divide sex and it just happens that the transorbs say the one that's most important is the one that trans people can't change and it also happens to be the one that literally no one knows about anyone. I just like why all this matters. whether it's like the fact that there are two biologists in a video arguing about what makes someone a woman or why who cares seems like why it matters because ultimately the pronouns and the way they refer to each other is a social thing it's all about that's all about mutual respect and then they've become like gametes to justify using the wrong pronouns for people when they feel more comfortable using the other pronoun hello miss oh my god I'm so sorry, your gametes are Too small for me to call you that sir sir sir little gamete is here let me take out my gamete detection what do you

guys

feel?

It feels like they know it's a very complex topic and we know it, but it does it. I feel like trying to find a reason to preserve a view of the old world that you just want to hold on to conservatism yeah, we need to find a reason why we were right in the first place, so things shouldn't change, things shouldn't change, It's inherently reactionary, yes, inherently, but then you tell yourself it's not yes, you tell yourself that, oh, actually it's I was saying sir and ma'am for the game, yes, all the time, there's a Which is why I'm preserving this dumb stuff, okay, Ben Shapiro, I didn't realize. it was us, you joined us today seriously, if someone says that pronouns are biological, they're lying to themselves and this is like, we briefly touched on the kind of scientific aspect and we were talking about being reactionary and you know, something like that . making the world conform to this old outdated model that you have and those kind of touches on the simple basic

science

aspect and I want to talk very briefly about this.

I have talked about it many times before. I want to talk very briefly to the audience directly here hello audience, um, if you're someone who's listening to this and you've said before that it's basic

science

, it's high school biology, can I tell you that you studied biology at the university of biotechnology in the ucl? Anyone is going to try biotechnology and biology is much more complex than what you learned in high school, on many fronts, are you ready for advanced biology? Yes, if you are in your 30s and 40s, not only is biology more complex, our understanding of it has changed and I can tell you that my understanding of biology, the understanding of biology that we had when I was in college, It was changing so quickly that new things were added to the course when I started.

My teachers couldn't explain to me in detail why we like one, I mean, basically because we had just discovered it and no one knew what the result was. Biology is one of those nebulous and complex subjects that changes almost constantly. our understanding as we learn more and more things, but one thing is absolutely certain: if you say it's basic biology to refute anything trans people tell you about being trans, you're a transference when you should shut up because it's not. Understand biology, read an article for once, for the love of God, read an article and stop trying to quote your high school biology teacher who told you about sex in the most simplistic way so you could let everyone know. his 14 year old little boy. brain so you could pass a test pluto was still a planet when I was in school elementary school very simple um it's elementary school astronomy that pluto is a planet did you know that when you're in high school they teach you that in chemistry that the electrons they are in orbitals and then it turns out that the electrons are nowhere and we don't know where they are and we don't know how fast they go, even worse than that because in high school they teach you that electrons are in shells and then they teach you that they are in orbitals and then they discover that we don't know where they are, we can only know where they are or how fast they are going.

I never knew both, but it's basically high school physics that basically deals with basic things, even I understand it and so what I mean is and these are my favorites to pull out also is that when someone says it's basic high school biology, I mean, oh yeah, like the Krebs cycle, which comes in, it's basically something that happens in breathing and it gets incredibly more complex as you get out of high school and this always confuses people because when they say it's basic biology of high school, they haven't actually studied biology so they have no idea what I'm talking about and they must like it, they have to completely admit, oh yeah, maybe I shouldn't use high school biology as a metric to determine whether Should I treat this group of people kindly or not, sorry.

Science says I can be mean to redheads. He says I don't know because there aren't many. It's basic high school biology. They are very easy. To pick, I know my place, so those documents that we were looking at a little bit earlier, the protocol documents, I think they're incredibly interesting, I think you should take a look at them, they're definitely linked in the description, um, there are some interesting snippets here there are some quotes

gender

dysphoria

refers to the discomfort or distress caused by the discrepancy between a person's

gender

identity and the sex assigned to that person at birth and the associated gender role and our primary and secondary sexual characteristic trans people and gender variants are not necessarily gender dysphoric this was from 2013 it said that trans people don't necessarily have to be dysphoric long before the time comes, yeah, yeah, wow, we have enough time to ask how that works, um, I mean, me.

I'm not trans, no, you're just putting this as an expert, why do you think we brought you in? You have a PhD in trans. I'm right, I don't even know. I think it's like being trans is about identity and it's not necessarily about checking off lists, I feel like it's an internal sense of identity, if you know you're a man, you know you're a man, you don't necessarily need to feel uncomfortable, yeah, yes, as I have done. like there's no experience like feeling like that because my transition was completely motivated by

dysphoria

, but since gender dysphoria and how being trans has to do with identity, I think one of the reasons why this arises, at least for what I've read, it's because uh If trans kids and trans people in general are supported in accepting and supportive environments, they're less likely and they have the knowledge that they can get the changes they want, they can see a life for themselves. , there are less, they are less.

You probably have all of these additional issues, so you can imagine that gender dysphoria is probably pretty much reduced to the point where it's almost not necessarily diagnosable if you're in the right environment with the right path to get you where you want. I need to be, I also think it's worth referring to the fact that there is gender dysphoria in terms of wow, I have breasts, I don't want breasts, they bother me a lot, but there is also gender dysphoria it's like wow, uh, when class They told me to divide myself into girls and boys.

I had to go to the girls' part, so it's not just that there's physical dysphoria, there's also social dysphoria and obviously a lot of the social dysphoria will lessen if you're in an environment where your parents allow you to wear clothes that, like, you know, yeah, it matches your schedule, like for example, when I was a kid, I went into h m, we just go to the boys' section, I only wear boys' clothes, I had short hair, people assumed I was a boy, so I'm sure that if I wasn't in an environment where my parents were like that, my social dysphoria would be much worse, while luckily my physical dysphoria was so bad that that was all I needed.

Imagine if I didn't have so much physical dysphoria and my parents were as good as they were, that would have been wonderful, but I think this is what's really interesting and I want to say this to all the trans doctors out there. um maybe actually read maybe actually read about how you know trans people are treated, the protocol for trans people and their healthcare in the UK, because if you're going to say that being trans should be medicalized, maybe you should familiarize yourself with the medical literature on this because it literally says and I'll read it again for you.

Trans and gender variant people are not necessarily gender dysphoric so if you use them as if they are uh they will let you know the medicalization of being trans as a reason why you uh need dysphoria to be trans maybe maybe make sure that the real medical field agrees with you on that yeah maybe maybe do that first I could fight them I want him to want to fight everything I'm really sorry it really pisses me off when people are worried that he does this because of science, when it is not science at all. You didn't know that before reading this, right?

I didn't know that in 2013 there was something like that said in it. type of document, I found it really interesting and I think it's very interesting that, as you say, a lot of people who say they're used, who are on the science side, have actually never opened a real document. I've never actually read beyond the title summary of a scientific paper, yeah, they like that and they might not even know how to read one properly, so if you're on the science side, well, I mean something quite fundamental about science. Do you try things and then see if they work, and if it works, do you infer that you're trying to infer some sort of explanation from your initial hypothesis and your correct data?

So if you have a situation where there is what Your observed phenomena are: there are a lot of people who say I'm not happy with my assigned gender, then you let them transition and live as their preferred gender, yeah, and then they're happier, that's all you really need for anything. that's that, oh okay, maybe they could have been right or at least even if you don't think they're right, you can at least infer that allowing people to transition to their preferred gender socially and possibly physically is an effective treatment. for the people. feeling unhappy with your gender, yeah, and it's the best treatment that we have as far as we know, look, you say that, but you're actually using gender, you're using the affirmative care model, um, and what I would really like to tell you.

It's about this other model that was created by people who focus primarily on the people doing the detransition and what we found as we watched people detransition is that the best thing to do is not let people do the detransition. transition and instead just give them therapy so that they are not trans, actually the best thing you can do is just support the trans people around you because there are several studies that say that many people abandon transition due to lack of support social. that I'm not actually trans like the one I talked to, I went to the gender clinic maybe a few years ago and I talked about it because I found it interesting and I liked the work there, it was like yeah, we've had a lot of people come, look for treatment on our part for detransition and then he comes back and says yes, I went through a time where I didn't have the support and I couldn't continue with my transition andthen they came back and did it because no more support I want to make it clear that my last statement was humorous, it was very obviously humorous, but I was very sarcastic, that's fine, so you were being sarcastic, yes, yes.

The gender for the attention model affirmative is the best, obviously, it is the best. Um, people who come up and say we should actually give trans people therapy so they don't want to transition sucks and is based on people who transitioned and like Noah. has said that many detransitionists, mostly transistorists, transition because of a type of social support and what we have said consistently throughout this is that from the earliest age, if you just support people, then they will probably be well, it's also self explanatory, like you can literally use it for anything, like imagine you're a furry, you really like wearing furry outfits and you're like, hey

guys

, I'm a furry, I really enjoy being a furry, I loves participating in the fire. fandom you go outside in the fire suit they harass you a lot no, you're probably going to say oh but guys, I'm not furry but guys, no, no, no, guys, I'm sorry, I'm not.

I was never wrong about being fiery, so haven't you noticed that a lot of furries nowadays are depressed and like to hurt themselves? What is it about being a furry that makes people do that? Why do furries prey on these vulnerable people? It's so obvious and the only reason people are so confused is because they're blinded by reactionary people and like transphobia, like it's so clear to see that, hey, this. something about my body bothers me a lot oh well maybe convince yourself that's not the case maybe if you don't like your breasts then just tell yourself yes and look to be honest we can be we can there is some confusion .

There's data there, there's, let's say, let's say, differences of opinion, I think, however, when you look at the entire body of scientific data on this, the answer is pretty clear and it's the answer that that's the general consensus right now. I'm serious, it tells you something that most of the articles that seem to disagree with that kind of consensus come from people who have a specific and invested interest in changing the way trans people live their lives right. Yeah, and you might say, Oh, well, but maybe there's an outcry like you're building your entire public persona almost your entire life around this hatred of trans people.

I think it's a little different from people who say maybe we should make sure these people are happy with the bias between let's make sure these people get the minimum of human dignity and the bias of hate for this group and I want to see them burn. I feel like there are different levels, okay? just that they had that level of self awareness some other quotes from these from these uh these kind of uh protocols. I find the justification for a period of living in the gender role that is congruent with an individual's gender identity before genitalia really interesting. reassignment surgery living in an identity-congruent gender role is based on expert clinical consensus that this experience provides ample opportunities for parents to experiment with and socially adjust to their desired gender role before undergoing surgery irreversible, um, and what I have here is My notes on this are that in this case you need to have talked to everyone for at least a year and be present constantly day to day, which is a high bar and this is what I was saying, is where this would almost work. a perfect world where trans people were just accepted because when you got to the point you were at you were old enough to do that, yeah you would have lived a year in that by now and it would be fine, but that's not the case.

At work I wasn't broken because literally when I went to the children's gender clinic, that was a question they asked me, like you're living as a man and I was like I live in a very conservative boarding school, it's not possible for me come. go out and have a real life experience like this, no, I just feel like trans people are more likely to not feel like they can have that experience before they start testosterone because it's like there's so many things that could go wrong, I want say, that's right, I mean, obviously, make a little world for people to experience a land that I would love to build translate and you go and you go, you go, I felt much more comfortable there, now I'm going to be a woman again, which I don't I want to do it and I hope to translate again, yes, go about five times and if each time you feel better with the translation, then you can make the transition, Luke, I think we will put you in charge of the NHS, wait how.

Would you deal with depression? How did you approach that happy land? uh I don't think being depressed and being depressed and being trans are the same thing no we won't get to pressured earth um it is too but I just feel like it's like It's a lot easier to treat trans people than it is to treat well to depressed people because people generally want to be treated. Yes, there is a very clear path forward. Yes, yes, we know how we generally know how it is. treating trans people worse, right, we're treating people with depression, it's a lot like okay, we'll throw a bunch of medications at you and a bunch of different therapies and hopefully some of them stick with trans people, it's like So do you want to get rid of those tits or are you going to keep them?

What is the problem? It's so strange because it's like you have a growth on your leg that's causing you a lot of pain. I didn't like it a doctor wouldn't say oh but does it really hurt? we should wait and see how much but if you regret it you're right maybe you want you don't want the scars you can get cosmetic surgery for moles and things like that for blemishes so that's what I wanted to talk about that obviously like the kind of um , the limitations of these protocols, I think they are really good in some ways, um, and I want to be clear, they are the protocols, not the system itself, the protocols are just the words on a page that says: this is how we should do it , how it is actually implemented and how it works on a large scale with as many people trying to access it as now.

They're different things, um, but some of the advantages, some parts of the protocol are pretty solid and other parts like this are like this doesn't work in real life, so it's supposed to be very easy for a trans person. living in their gender for a year when, come on, are you kidding me? Have you ever talked to Sarah Tracy when you're doing these types of guidelines? uh and then there's another one that I thought of. It was interesting, a full discussion of fertility issues, including the possibility that gamete banking should precede endocrine treatment, so it's pre-hormonal treatment and I want to mention this because a very common thing coming from lawns and other transphobes It's that they are sterilizing the children, no.

They're not, they're just, from the beginning no, they're not, yes, no, they're not two, even in cases where hormone treatment can sterilize you, which again is the choice of words here. pay attention to people's choice of words in cases where, you know, hormone treatment affects your fertility, in trans men, in many cases they want that, because being fertile as a trans man implies something that not everyone wants months. So that's probably a good thing for them and ultimately for trans women, if they're going to go through the full surgeries, if they're going to have butt surgery, then fertility is something that's lost at that point. , Yeah.

So it really bothers me that there's this whole problem, all these kinds of things that come from tariffs and other transphobes that you know are sterilizing, they're sterilizing children or they. Are they making children infertile when you need to have a full discussion about this along with storing gametes before that and also yeah, not even like 100 things where taking hormones will make you sterile? percent, yeah, I mean, it's there, it's the number of thoughts about the number of stories of trans guys who have gone off um hrt for a while so they can be pregnant, yeah, yeah, it's incredibly frustrating and it's literally.

In the process, there's a whole discussion here about fertility issues and, like, you're right, God, yeah, well, it's the kind of thing where every time a transphobe says, oh, what's up with this? They did not consider this in each and every evaluation I did. What I have had has been so detailed that it is sickening how many questions they ask you as if they had asked me. Have I considered living in a masculine feminine role instead of living as a boy like maybe you're just a tomboy? Have you considered that? like they covered all the bases and like I left the appointment at the children's clinic and cried because I was like, yeah, I want my eggs frozen because they have to mention literally everything and I think that's when it makes a little bit of sense.

How this kind of transference vision manifests itself when you realize that these are generally not people who are going through this process themselves, right? They are people who are parents of these people or, for example, of children who do not necessarily they are. It's going to be all these things and I'm going to hear about it secondhand and think, Oh my God, what are they doing to my son? It comes this way, it's not even kind of a first-hand understanding or it's coming from people who generally find uh, trans people are disgusting and have never engaged with any of this, so we're just making unfounded assumptions, yeah, how to read the protocol, please read the protocol and then raise your problems with it, because many know it.

A lot of these concerns actually come up in the kind of treatment plan that covers treatment and all that kind of stuff and I want to talk quickly about what causes gender dysphoria. Well I had 100 points for anyone to tell me what causes gender dysphoria, we don't know, yeah it's 58 or 100 out of 100 each, so yeah, we don't know. I was really hesitant to do this in this episode because I know that the science surrounding this topic is anything but definitive, by which I mean, we obviously haven't come to any major conclusions on this and there's a lot of misinformation floating around out there and there are people who He often repeats hypotheses as if they were fact and that really muddies the waters.

I have a bunch of quotes that basically just say we don't understand what it is, I mean, I have a quote here from uh, I think it's a book on gender dysphoria, uh, that says that the etiology of gender dysphoria is still missing. clear. but it is believed to originate from a complex biopsychosocial bond, so what is it all about? Yes, everything is crucial. We don't fully understand how someone forms a sense of self, sure, let alone a trans person. We don't know anyone. The road is very complicated. that we form our identity biologically, we don't know how someone does that, but no, it's because you let your daughter cut her hair, well, I think this is the thing, I think people generally let them watch YouTube without offense.

It's a pretty strange thing for us, like you, maybe it's too much to go into, but it's a pretty strange thing that you're like a system and then your brain is creating a self, yeah, so you can The model is outside, which I think which is one of the prevailing and similar views, yes, it's like we don't even know what we are, we don't know how we are conscious, we don't know how we are experiencing the things we don't know. We don't know how we form identity, we know that a good part of how we form identity is not in our conscious control at all, yes we know that we don't really have much control over what we want to do or what we like, so why that?

Are we trying to explain these same concepts as if we were trying to find answers to things that perhaps simply don't have answers? I mean, I think that's ultimately true. This is something we talk about often. Is it more likely that there is a specific one? thing that transits here or there are maybe like a complex number of different things, different factors that could result in someone being the one left, but I think what's interesting is that, oh, and this is keeping in mind that there are intersex people. people who may be trans and part of that is because intersex children are forced to be one or the other from birth and then they get it wrong, yeah, which you already know, and that's why I mention intersex.

There are a lot of people in this conversation because coincidentally there are a number of things that could help trans people could also help intersex people and vice versa and obviously intersex people deserve their own voices in their own space and I don't want to lump them together entirely. in this. conversation, but I think it's worth mentioning that, um for uh, by not imposing something so strict, you must be a boy or a girl from birth, we must raise you as a boy and boys do this and girls do that for, so to speak. By eliminating that you help a lot of different groups of people, yes, so, for example, you help these kinds of gay guys and girls, queer guys and girls who don'tthey necessarily conform to gender roles, you help gender non-conforming people who are not necessarily trans you help intersex people because you probably wouldn't have those horribly invasive and potentially mutilating surgeries performed without consent on babies.

You also help people who aren't gender non-conforming, like by forcing any role onto anyone you're forcing them onto. on a route that maybe they wouldn't necessarily have taken if they hadn't been told that that's what they absolutely should do, I mean the number of people I know and have talked to who are like that and live in places Those are small towns and all that, that they can't be who they are, yes, in one sense or another because of this strict idea of ​​what they should be that is imposed on them. Yeah, it was like you didn't.

You even want to wear nail polish at your job because you thought people would make comments about it and it's and this is and that's what I don't even want to say and I get comments. I was literally in a conversation about this last night. There was someone um who was saying oh clearly you're clearly insecure you're wearing nail polish and I was like no I think it looks cool and then he said it looks stupid and I was like you don't understand um I don't care what you think I think It looks good, um, and so it's been, that's been my case for a while, yeah, I know right, I know that's where you're getting into.

Look, I don't derive from myself. -it's worth what a stranger online thinks about my appearance I wear things I think I wear crazy but my brain is no such thing as looking good objectively anyway what do you want about whoa whoa luke I'm here pretty good objectively pretty good? but I wouldn't wear it, I wouldn't want to wear it, no I don't care, I wouldn't want to wear nail polish at work when I was working in an office and it wasn't so much because I was necessarily embarrassed or any of those things were strictly to exemplify my life because I didn't enjoy going to that place.

I didn't enjoy talking to several of the people there and wearing nail polish, then I would. I have to have a series of conversations that I just don't want to have. It's easier if you're gay, yeah, it's easy, you're gay and it's like they joke about it and it's not even like the jokes bother me, it's more the fact that. I'm like this: This is increasing the social interaction I have to have with you and I'm going to have to generate conversations that I just don't want to have. It's easier for me not to look like my best self.

I just can't have this conversation, which is sick, really, because I don't like you knowing me. I really don't care much what other people think. It's just that if I have to see you every day I'm going to change. how I am because it just makes my life easier yes because I don't want to talk to you because I don't mind talking about it I can't be both I don't want to educate you on like yes, I I can't be bothered, I can't be bothered and you're absolutely right, if we eliminated so many of these expectations, everyone would probably be a lot happier, a lot of people, yeah, so I mean, when we talk about the causes. gender dysphoria and I didn't want to skip this because I assumed that's why people want this episode, but I have to be honest, we don't know that we can talk about male and female brains.

I want to do a full episode. about that because I was trying to research the issue of male versus female brains. There is so much research. There is so much research on this. I've seen places that say there are definite differences between male and female brains. I've seen places that say there are definite differences between male and female brains. There are no definitive differences between male and female brains and part of that is socialization. I've heard people say that socialization um uh has some effect, but actually there are inherent differences and you can see those differences in a species of monkeys and all that.

I don't know yet, I don't know, I need to sit and read for a week about this specific topic, and there are studies that have shown that trans people have brains that are more like the brains of uh, let's say if you're a trans man so uh it would be more similar to sort of the typical male brain and vice versa, there's all that, there's so much going on that there's also the idea of, I think um, heightened. uh a testosterone um kind of differences in the kind of sensitivity to testosterone in the womb that potentially affect um potentially affect the kind of gender identity later in life there are so many things that can cause gender dysphoria and I think what What we need to do is we need to get out of our heads this idea that there is a cause for any of these things, there is no single cause for being gay, there is probably probably no single cause for being trans because trans people are diverse and varied. and not all of them necessarily have gender dysphoria. and not everyone has a gender for you it's necessarily trans and there's so many different things it's like saying oh why are you depressed like oh well I'm depressed we need to find the reason why I'm depressed what is this where I left my cat ?

It's like you know a 30-story building and yeah, no, very sad because everyone was depressed because I sat on a cake, those are like two different guys, everyone who sits on a cake must be depressed, those are two very reasons different to be. depressed, sure, but if you go, if you go around saying oh yeah, this person is depressed because they sat on a pie, everyone's depressed because they're sitting on pies, it doesn't work, but it's like maybe it's just not a reason. , maybe that's how it is, I mean, maybe some people are like that, I mean, okay, I think then you're getting into something like that, I think this is then a discussion about what the reason is, I mean, I think that maybe.

There's no kind of reason that you know we want a story, but there is a path to that and maybe it's so complex that it's different for everyone. No, I didn't want to skip this, but I don't know, no, no, I could talk about all the different theories and everything, but then it would really be a whole episode in itself and it wouldn't be, I don't think it would be that interesting. because it would just be oh we think this but we're not sure or we think that but we're not sure you know and ultimately it matters enormously?

I think it's interesting, but as soon as you find out the reason why As one way people can be trans, all you're going to do is make people start trying to prevent trans people from existing or prevent them from existing. people say they're trans and they don't have that thing and then you're like being involved, you're not trans, it's also the kind of thing that, like finding a reason, doesn't necessarily mean that you're going to be able to solve the problem, even in similar therapy. , I'm just saying, oh, why am I? I like this, he says maybe it's because of this, that doesn't necessarily mean that just because I'm aware of why I have this, it means that I'm going to be able to cure it just because I'm aware of Yes, and I think that's the last thing I want.

To talk, you know, is to leave aside all kinds of real biological and social causes of gender dysphoria, it's a kind of medicalization of transness and I try to avoid that in this. my notes if you looked at my notes for this episode, trans people are mentioned very sparingly, they didn't want to make this episode about trans people, I want to make this episode about gender dysphoria and yeah, they're very much the same type. of things, but not necessarily in all cases and I think that by combining gender dysphoria with what is in the dsm-5, you know that what emerged from the dsm-4 is a definition of gender identity disorder as that was in the dsm- 4 gender identity disorder, so you are medicalizing transness, right, so you are saying that being trans is a mental illness and here is a quote from the gender identity clinic, most quotes for patients will be with gender specialist doctors who may have experience. in psychology or psychiatry, although we don't see gender identity issues as a mental illness because you can say that they are and if it comforts you to think that you're mentally ill, um and that's the problem, okay. you can do that when you start trying to apply that to other people, that's when you run into problems, like I'm feeling right now, because the only way trans people can access the health care they need to live comfortably is to through health as a kind of medical field through those health services, the broadcasts necessarily become medicalized and I was curious to know what you guys thought about that, I just think it's interesting because it's like I have a mental illness, but Not because I'm trans, right?

And I think so too, don't you? Yeah, like the fact that, as you know, a lot of autistic people we talked about this in the autism episode a few weeks ago, that a lot of autistic people will have these. kind of comorbidities with depression and anxiety and the same thing can be said for ADHD and all these things, maybe it's because the way society treats these people well, I feel like you probably see trans people being a lot more mental. healthy if they weren't faced with a society like that, which is incredibly hostile towards them at all times, yeah, you know, so I think that's probably it for this week, it's a little long, right?

We have a long thing, but one more thing to do before we go, real quick, for our dun dun gender dysphoria edition, so the rules for the quick test are the same as always. I will ask a question that is a question between three of you, the first person, the buzzer with the correct answer after you finish asking the question wins, what do they win? Skip gender dysphoria. I just got rid of that. Well, you better not win. Luke. What is your timbre? Uh, Jeff, what's your ringtone now? Noah, you need to do it. make a non binary sound what will my answer be anyway uh okay so the question is what was it called gender dysphoria on the dsm forum oh noah you came the first gender identity disorder ding ding ding that's right , you get genders in sports, how?

Are you feeling with your new prize back? There is no other waiting list. Wow, that's three years of science guys. Wow, amazing three full years. Think about how many different places we've moved between, like so many different studios. Yes, almost everyone in a place where Noah lives is very strange oh yes, yes, he is at the same point, yes, stop saying "fit", you are the fifth saigon, four of us, no, it's the three of us and you You are the fifth, it's very simple, can't you count? I mean. How about this? You can stop complaining about being the fifth side guy and we'll let you thank some of our sponsors.

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Thanks Shannon Warland. Thanks Jack McClaire. Thanks phoebe morgan. Thanks rkm. Thank you Kelly Bowling. Kelly Bowling. thanks nub it's nebula and thanks megan serpa wow anubis what a nervous nebula but also knob it's nebula i thought it was karen gillan but it turns out she's numb it's not, it's very easy all the time well that's it for this week and that's it the third year of science, guys, well, that's it for the riders, well, no, it's not even the third year, sorry, guys, it's the, no, the fourth year, the beginning, let's go to the beginning of the fourth , entering the room, well, let's say hello. to the fourth year of psy guys, which we're starting right now, it's amazing, very cool, so hopefully we have, as you know, three more years, maybe three years after that, maybe another two years after that and a year after that, and then we stopped, oh God.

I feel so old, how many kids will Luke have, so before we go, we would like to thank all of our sponsors with a very special thank you to executive producers danito and rosa rodríguez and thanks for watching, you can find the full references for this episode at the description subscribe to receive new episodes every Sunday and why not leave us a good comment of the week. You can support the pod on patreon.com sideci guys or you can be a fan and contact us at psyguyspod on twitter, facebook, instagram and here on youtube and on sciguys on tick tock two or you can email us at cygosport gmail.com that's it sagaspod gmail.com boyspod at gmail.com you can follow me on not corey everywhere you can follow me on champion everywhere you can follow me on luke cutworth Everywhere you can follow me without offense except on Twitter where I am Nerfin Adams and talk where I am, no offense, you should just get a username, shouldn't you?

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