Nachgefragt: Gefahr aus der Luft: Drohnen im Ukraine-Krieg - Bundeswehr

Welcome to today's "In Demand" episode. It can be seen every day on the Internet: the use of drones has become extremely important in the Ukrainian war. And there are small commercially available drones that are actually used for reconnaissance or can carry weapons, and even very, very large drones that can also carry weapons. Today we want to focus on small drones, because our community still has many questions about them. Our expert on this is Lieutenant Colonel Rüdiger Rauch. He is a consultant at the Ministry of Defense on small and micro drones, that is, drones weighing up to 25 kilograms.

Good morning, Lieutenant Colonel. Good morning, Mrs. Captain Watson. What role do drones play in the Ukrainian war? An important role that should not be underestimated. We saw that at the beginning of the war in Ukraine, the Ukrainians used real combat drones, military drones, very successfully. Especially in airspace, where the Russian armed forces actually had air supremacy and have therefore proven that the original assumption that drones can play an important role in small asymmetric conflicts is wrong, but that they actually also play an important role in major conflicts. What also worries many people: Have drones changed the course of the war in Ukraine?

They certainly have, because Ukrainians have been preparing for this conflict for a long time, since 2014, since the annexation of Crimea. And it was seen, especially in the initial phase, that they achieved great successes using the combat drones supplied by Turkey. Has the use of drones changed during the war in Ukraine? If you have. At first we saw the use of Turkish combat drones on the Ukrainian side. But as the war progressed, we saw that the Russian air defense became better organized. And these large drones, in turn, are easy for conventional air defense systems to find and combat.

What types of military or commercial drones exist? There are the really large drones, which are military in nature. We once talked about buying the "Euro Hawk", so we are talking about drones from the size of a small airliner to very small drones that can land in the palm of your hand and everything in between, both military and civil. And how are they used? They are used both for reconnaissance, that is, to be able to see what is happening on the ground, and for effects, that is, as weapons carriers. Or if they are military, there are weapons stations where there are guided and unguided rockets and bombs hanging below.

And you can do everything with civilian drones. These can become weapon carriers with relatively little effort. And how are military and commercial drones different from each other? Once definitely on the price. Military drones are exponentially more expensive than civilian ones. And then they differ in that military drones, if they are going to be used as weapons carriers, already have recording stations for guided and unguided rockets, bombs, etc. In Ukraine it is particularly common at the moment for commercially available drones to be converted. What do I have to imagine with that? This is relatively simple. Some simple, technical changes are made to a civil drone like the one we have here, for example, by mounting a carrier tube, for example with adhesive tape, and attaching to it a small servomotor that has a small hook.

And then you hang a 40 millimeter grenade on it, equipped with a small tail unit, either by 3D printing or simply gluing it to a steering wheel. And then you have a very precise weapons carrier. What do they do at the end of the day? If you imagine a grenade like this falling unexpectedly from the sky somewhere, on a field field or in a group shelter or, if the weather conditions are right, even through an open turret hatch, with the corresponding effect on the fighting compartment of the tank. . Does that mean I can create an accurate weapons carrier or armed drone just by attaching a grenade or something else with some duct tape?

That's a variant. Or you can take the drone as is. If you imagine this drone coming at 60 kilometers per hour and flying towards your face, then that is a very serious factor. But that's true. Which side has had the most success with drones so far? If you look at the public media, it is certainly the Ukrainian side that has also prepared very specifically for this. At the moment it can be said that the Russian armed forces initially used drones mainly for reconnaissance and now use them to control their enormous artillery fire. And from the beginning, the Ukrainians took all of these consumer drones and converted them, either as weapons carriers or just for reconnaissance.

And they do it very, very well. Now we've talked a lot about what drones can do and what they are used for. I'd also like to talk about how we get rid of them, specifically drone defense. How does it work, what options do we have? Drone defense is basically divided into three steps. The first factor to consider: First I have to recognize that there is a drone there. That is, the so-called detection. I can do this using a radar device, for example, by looking optically. It used to be called an airspace observer and is still called that today.

Or just watch with other sensors. What are other sensors? For example acoustic sensors. You can listen to drone sounds, you know the sound, you can also listen to them electronically. But the distances at which this can be done are relatively small. That's one thing. Then comes the next step. I have to say okay, is it your own drone or is it someone else's drone or is it a bird? That is the big obstacle because defense with drones is not that easy. Then comes the actual combat against the drones. Now, of course, I'm looking at the two drones we have here and I realize that they are super, super small.

If you then imagine them flying in the sky, you simply compare them to a bird, birds can actually be seen as little black dots in the sky. If I don't pay attention, I just don't see them at all. How difficult is it to find them? This is very, very difficult. And it is precisely the comparison with the bird that is crucial. Because what do I see with technical devices? Simply put, a radar device is based on this: I send energy. It hits an object and is reflected. Here on the drone you can see very clearly that it is actually quite large, but the radar reflective surface of such a drone, that is, where the energy is reflected, here is actually only a very small part of the battery. .

And that's about the same area of ​​reflection that a bird creates. That means the first big step is recognizing: is it a bird or is it a drone? I imagine it would be super difficult, especially if we start from such a small point. It is difficult and, above all, it is not cheap. So this is not something you can do on the cheap. Very high-tech systems must be used, the development of which has experienced a great boost in recent years because drones are increasingly common, both in the military and civil sectors. In particular, let's talk again about optical recognition.

As old-fashioned as the airspace observer may seem, some of you may still know it from its basic training, but it's gaining importance again, isn't it? If I don't have any technical systems or I have very few, then it becomes more important, yes. If we look closely, in important situations, such as in Germany, the Day of German Unity, etc., the police, for example, once again deploy hundreds of people on rooftops to carry out optical reconnaissance against drones, with aids such as telescopes with which even today direction, distance, etc. can be transmitted in a modern way. But it is becoming more and more important.

Enormous. This is exactly what General Schulz, the commander of the armored troop school, who we recently had on an episode of “Questified,” also addressed and also said: Even in the most modern battle, you have to look at the sky again. . , we have to look up again. You have to look at it and, above all, you have to fight against what you find there. Yes, you can only underline what the general said. And the Americans have been talking for several years about losing air supremacy with the arrival of drones. The Bundeswehr has also developed a so-called anti-drone rifle to defend against drones.

How does something like that work? Well, the anti-drone rifle misses the target. The name is out there, but ultimately we're talking about an aiming assist system that attaches to a standard gun and the handle is slightly modified. What's happening there? This assist system means that the shot is only fired when the target is actually hit. Now I'm happy to take the drone again. What is really here about this drone that is metal and so valuable that if I hit it, it would cause the drone to fall? I can certainly shoot parts of such a wing or even shoot through it without the drone falling over and the aim assist system allows me to always hit the drone myself, but I may need more than one shot before to be able to achieve something vital, that is, to get it right. the battery, for example, causing the drone to fall.

And we have tested this assistance system. With good success. The Bundeswehr also makes great efforts to protect operational properties and camps from drones and their attacks. How do you face this challenge? There we use so-called immediate initiatives and acquire systems that, in principle, map this entire chain of results. These devices have a radar device that is designed to distinguish between birds and drones. Then, with good optics, day and night vision, I can look at it and say: Yes, it's actually a drone. Is there anything to that? Very important. And I have an effector that basically prevents the use of drones by jamming signals.

Now not only is Germany concerned about the Bundeswehr and drone defense, but it is also a big problem within NATO. What types of drone defense exist? NATO created the so-called Counter UAS Task Force around 2018. Counter UAS stands for Countering Unmanned Aircraft Systems. This is the technical term for what we commonly call drone defense. And, on the one hand, it deals with the development of the conceptual landscape necessary for this, as well as helping nations in the selection of systems. This means that NATO conducts exercises and examines what defense systems exist, what defense systems work well, how to interconnect the whole thing, so that everything also has a reasonable picture of the situation and tries to get nations to do more.

This is not only addressed militarily, but with the so-called governmental approach, that is, these techniques are also exchanged with the civilian side. You may remember the Heathrow and Gatwick incidents, which also caused enormous economic damage. If I remember correctly, there were major disruptions to air traffic, especially for small drones. Air traffic was severely disrupted for several days and had to be stopped completely, with enormous economic damage. Apart from the travelers who did not escape. What systems are used within NATO? Much testing and research is still being done within NATO. We have tested systems ranging from highly sophisticated weapons, i.e. weapons of the future, such as lasers, to mechanical weapons stations, where larger calibers are actually fired, or also HPEM systems and high-power microwave systems.

This means that if a drone flies within the effective range, the systems will short circuit, and I will say this in a very simplified and not entirely technically correct way, so that the drone will simply fall. But now there are also so-called net launchers, that is, nets that can be shot. Yes, exactly, there are two different versions. Shoulder systems are more intended for the protection of VIPs, that is, they are a last-minute tool that the bodyguard carries with him. It only works over short distances. But this also exists in a kind of weapons station, which then operates a few hundred meters away.

But these are all things that are more suitable for point defense, but not for field protection. Because if you imagine, that only works for a few hundred meters, so I would have to put something like that every few hundred meters. Now, if I have a weapons station, at least no one has to stay there. Portable systems are not really suited to running 24/7 for long periods of time. But now there is also the possibility of defending against drones with so-called interceptor drones, and today you brought one. Can you briefly explain to us how it works? Yes, I brought here an interceptor drone demonstrator.

The company that built it called it the "Hunter Killer Race Copter." It doesn't look as good without the fairing, because it's a demonstrator, so you don't put much effort into the fairing. And it has the opportunity to fly very, very quickly towards an enemy drone after it has reconnected via radio signals and then takes control with its own sensors, in this case a video signal, which can pick up and ram the enemy drone simply. . ThisIt means that if things go well, only the opponent falls, but usually both fall. That is one of the options you have.

And the fact that he is here so naked and without accommodation is because he is a protester? It's a demonstrator, you can do it too, but to test the functional principle in tests, a relatively simple setup is enough, in which you don't have to invest a lot of money and time. What other options exist for drone defense? I think now, for example, of misery. Maybe we can explain this to the viewers in more detail. Yes, with interference the following happens: the so-called control frequencies or, more commonly, the connection between the drone controller and the drone are simply interrupted.

And this can make the drone practically disoriented. And so it flies, depending on how it's programmed, it flies back to the manufacturer, it flies back to a one or two meter safety zone, or in the case of very old drones, it just falls out of the sky. At the beginning we talked about how drones created a whole new dimension, especially in the Ukrainian war. After all, what challenges will future wars pose? For future wars, the challenge arises not only from drones in the air, but ultimately in all dimensions. In other words, we have drones in the air that may appear in swarms in the future.

In other words, I launch a lot of drones and after the start, this swarm acts in a self-organized manner and carries out my orders. But all this is also available in the country, with wheels and chains. There are caterpillar-like systems that can move on the ground. Sometimes they were developed for Fukushima to research there or for seismic zones, but also floating systems or diving systems. Some time ago, an object washed up on the coast of Crimea and the press reported that it was possibly an unmanned floating system being used by the Ukrainians. So future wars will no longer be fought without drones?

No, drones are here to stay. What lessons can be learned from the war in Ukraine, especially regarding the use of drones, for future challenges within the Bundeswehr? We have to ensure that we create the Bundeswehr accordingly to protect against drones in the country of origin - we are already working on this - as well as to install adequate protection against such drones and defensive measures in the operational areas, but also for the authorities nationals and defense of the alliance. And that will be a great package because technology is advancing very, very quickly. And the development, these rapid cycles of innovation that we have with drones, are completely incompatible with the arms processes of all countries.

We are not alone with the Bundeswehr. Thank you very much for the interview, Lieutenant Colonel. You are welcome! And with this we come to the end of our episode "Questified". Feel free to tune in again next time. See you soon!