STONE COLD/BRET HART on the Edge and Christian Podcast WRESTLING PODCAST SERIES EPISODE #1 RELOAD

Well first of all I want to say that we could thank you both for agreeing to join us, obviously you were both a huge influence on our careers and it's also huge for both of us that we've become friends with both of you. you guys, and you know, speaking from a personal note, this is a match that I had studied when I was growing up and I was very young in the business and one that I saw strictly, you know, I mean, it was a perfect. The combination of storytelling and psychology and everything related to that.

I just remember watching it over and over and watching it again, just taking different pieces away each time I watched it so it's exciting for us to be able to talk to you two about this and just um you guys. I knew it at the time, I'm not sure if it was meant to be the limit with this match that really changed the direction of the entire industry and you know it again, thanks for taking the time to do this with those guys, it's absolutely fun for me anyway. Well, you know, let's get into it because I know you guys don't have much time, so watching this match you know the end result of this, everything changes, everything in the industry from this moment on I can say without a shadow of a doubt.

Without a doubt, this match changes everything, it changes the direction of the dubbing and it changes the direction of its two characters, when did you know this was going to happen coming out of this mattress and did you want it to happen? Coming out of this match, what happened organically over the months and the buildup to it or I mean was there a plan to do this? I guess just Steve did something about what they had in mind for me. until the last minute until that day, Steve was the first guy who reached out to say I finished talking to him about my shift and no one up to that point, including everyone else, addressed anything about it as far as I know.

We actually just had like, as I remember all of this right now, we just worked at Survivor Series and we had a great match on that

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, but we didn't work again especially for a while, we were going to come back. a longer break like maybe SummerSlam or something like that. We knew we were going to work together again, but it was like we had done our own thing and were going to spend some time with each other. The best thing that came out with Shawn was the belt will lose the belt and all that and suddenly we were both stuck with each other again.

I remember it was like, I remember, I thought that Wrestlemania received it was like we were cooled down in the sense that we had already done it. I worked and we had done all of our things, the best things we could think of to do on the Fiber

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and I felt like it wasn't where I expected to work with Shawn at WrestleMania and he lost, so I was kind of in limbo a little bit as far as where I had gone and Steve seemed like some kind of substitute even though Steve was hot, then the rumble that led to us, at least for me, I followed the story and Steve was just following his own story, we kept overlapping in the good sense, you know, I really loved working with Steve on Survivor Series and I loved, you know the chemistry we had and I wanted to do something really special with Steve and I didn't.

I didn't think it was going to happen at WrestleMania. I thought WrestleMania was bringing us together too soon again, but in saying all that, once we got there that day, my whole character was leaving. for a change Yo Steve talked to me like he wasn't sure what his character was going to be like, if he was going to become a babyface, that's where they were taking him, but he wanted to take his time to get there, as far as I remember. It was so we don't want to turn Steve into a full tournament and turn him into some kind of good guy straight out of a match.

I think he's going to continue with the same style and I'm going to tell him to stay more aggressive. style or babyface heal style what I love about the match, you know, rich from the beginning, it's just the entrances, look how Steve and I enter the ring, yeah, he was the heel, he was the bad boy, I was, I left. I'm tired and I'm some kind of cool babyface and I'm going to get revenge and it's funny how in the end we were completely changed and we never changed our styles, we never did anything but fight the same way we did. all the time and it was just amazing, I think a little bit of psychology and the two wrestlers being able to read each other's characters, you know, and coming back to Survivor Series saying you know when you practically had the pygmy Bret. you know because you're coming back after they cleaned your knee and you know it was a great honor for me because we had worked on a couple of shows at home, you know I started working with Sean, I think we were in Houston, Texas, and I just about working with Sean and you messaged me and you went to Omega you said hey man that was it it was a great match he says I work with you anytime and that was a huge compliment to me because he was a big fan of Bret Hart before he came to the Federation, you know, Bret reversed the cap before.

May obviously started earlier in Calgary, so I had seen all of his work and Brenton, you know, is such a high-level guy with so many multiple layers of psychology and all the technical and mechanical aspects that he brings and he brought to the ring a product based in reality and we always knew that business worked, but Bret was a total reality for me and I had a lot of respect for his work and finally, you know, when I entered the WWF I said the ringmaster trick. I came up with Stone Cold Steve Austin. The things I went through, you know, all those trials and tribulations and I had these moments.

I some color commentary, you know, opportunities to work with Aldo Montoya doing promos with him and what he was doing, you know, I walked in there like a hill and started talking so much trash that people started gravitating towards that character. I will never do it. Forget a house show, Brian Pillman comes in and of course man, Brian were good friends from WCW, it's in the blonde days of Hollywood and we split up, he was going through the things he'd been through and I'd gone in my adress. They're single now and I remember coming back from the ring one time and Brian watched the match.

I got a harder pop than my babyface opponent and Brian was like, damn, kid, you're a babyface and I told him to ask you why dude, do you take? these things seriously you're trying to be a healer baby then someone God I'm trying to be a healer and he called me baby that's almost an insult yeah and I said man I said I'm a badass and then . all these things started happening, you know, we had the Royal Rumble in San Antonio. I got expelled. I go back behind the referees. You know, I end up throwing all those guys or more bread and we made it to the final four when I went.

In that match I actually had, I was sick when a dog had a tire blow out and then, you know, we kept going and I was left with thorns and breaths and I kept attacking him backstage and we, you know, like I said, there was probably the substitute What do you know, maybe we're going to go our separate ways and I'll never forget before WrestleMania 13 happened, there were two weeks before the match. I think they always tell me a story and I'm in. I'm in San Antonio watching Monday Night Raw and suddenly I saw that it was announced that it would be Bret the Hitman Hart vs.

Stone Cold Steve Austin and a submission match and I was furious because I'm NOT a submission style wrestler. You know, I fell on my head. I became a fighter. I was starting to become somewhat attractive as a baby, but I was proud of myself and being him all of a sudden. You know, I'm going into this match with Bret the Hitman Hart, which. I love it, but the submission partner completely threw me off and I remember expressing my concerns to Vince McMahon because I really felt like I was being put in a compromising position because I'm not a submission wrestler, everyone knows, I only had about three or four moves and the rest were recognized ball shots and things like that, so this is not going to be a match designed for me and when we got to Chicago before going to the goal room, I knew it and Chicago was becoming some kind of fortress for me during For some reason, those fans really gravitated towards that character and me and I thought we were going to get into this.

I think we were the penultimate fight. We are in a very good position. There was a buffer match between us and the main event that was said versus the taker and the man I really thought and I think Brett prepared the same feelings with me, but I probably thought the glass is half full, so the worker himself is, but I thought we were going to stink up the joint. I really did and we did everything except we smashed it with the 5 star performance and started the run of what you know we would need some work on the back end for Brett to turn on the hill and for me to go babyface but as he said keeping most of the working styles that Steve asked a topic question like when you said you were like mad because there was going to be a submission match and you didn't have one. submission moves and stuff like that, did you know at that point that Vince wanted to go in that direction or did any of you know that he wanted to make me make a change there with you becoming more of a babyface? and Brett finally turned around, you know, turned heel and started the ball rolling on that and it was almost him kind of foreshadowing and they're like putting you in a match where people know your character is at a disadvantage, do you know what i?

I mean, it's that kind of foreshadowing of that kind of thing like you're already like me no, I don't know what, I didn't know what this wanted from me until after that game and what direction it would really be going and Brent being the veteran that I had a much more supportive relationship with Vince and having been there for so long, he probably knew a lot more than I did. You didn't really understand the magnitude of everything that was about to happen and then it was going to transition to, you know, the most popular baby faces in the history of the business and this was going to be, you know, I can tell it now. same, you know, without Bret Hart, you know, in my career I don't think I would have the career that I ended up having or if you start with Survivor Series or you talk about this match and just our feud in this entirety, you know, I would never have been the himself or probably would have done so.

I never made it I said if it wasn't for Bret Hart but I didn't know that you know that coming out of this match things would go the way they did for him and for me I think like you said you were you were you thought With this mattress you're going to stink like hell and I think you can say something or two. I think the best artists, and I've said this many times in the past, always produce under an immense amount of pressure and it's almost like when you come out of that fear, you produced something special, it's that kind of what happened here, like you had a resentment on the shoulder, you came out with that, Oh Maya, this could be really bad, but it ended up being a classic.

Well, man, no, I didn't have any fear in me because I was at a practically professional level because mechanically I was very good in the ring, I was very aggressive, my character was in a very good position, they are putting me in a good position. positions and I knew that Brotherhood worked with Bret, you know, I think technically yes, we could suck joining, but if you remember this Bret, we went to the finish room and, as I remember this as Bret and Vince McMahon, I don't I don't remember there being anyone more in that room and we're going over the game, we're not going to the game, we're going over the end because that's how it was in 96 97, whatever this game is, he says.

I want them to go out and at the end of the game they know that Brett is going to have them like a sniper and they are going to pass out and at this moment there was no color policy on this in the Federation, nobody bleeds anyone. He doesn't do anything, so you know he gives us our marching orders, you know, Bret might have asked a question or two, but I mean, we get out, we just walk into the arena, there's no one out there, the doors aren't open and I'm thinking. I myself am really doubting this ending.

I was always willing to put Bret on top, but I was doubtful that he would pass me out in the Sharpshooter, so I went back around the vent. I'm not going to tell a story, let me add. My said Mitch I said are you sure about this finish? I said man, I don't know, are you sure about this finish? and he says all this is a direct quote, it was old damn Steve, I promise you it will work and I said okay and I trusted him and that's when I went back to Bret and we started walking around the Rangers, you know, there's just to chat and Bret told me and he says, Steve, he says, if you're going to faint. in the Sharpshooter you need to have color and I said man do you think he says?

Oh yes, I know it well. Here's the thing: there is a no collar policy. I've been with the company probably about a year. I don't have any stroke. He has no influence and so Brett, being the veteran that he is, says if you want I'll do it and I said because that means he's taken me under his general seniority policy and his legend there was going on and the WWF in that moment. so I said, well, cool, some people always ask me, hey, you've never done any blade work in the past, people said you know Bret Hart cuts, right?

Scared, no, I wasn't scared, I'd done a lot blade jobs before, but when the man, mister man, says there is nocolor, I'm going to follow those orders, yeah, and Bret covered my ass, we needed that drama at the end of the match. I have another story as we go through the game, but I'll never forget Bret making that call and when you watch, I watch this game twice because I know we're going to show those footage and how Brett brought the offense to me. that style of grinding that always had its intensity and its concentration, especially when working my leg, you know, that color, that iconic image of me, my time that snipers between a minute and a half to two minutes and since I put it on when turn.

It took me to what I just passed out and that was absolute magic and obviously his altercation when he reworked my leg and then the Kin belly to belly to back and then the way Brent lowered the calories probably or just walked away from it. he walked through that room his paws on the apron the moment of deliberation the way he did everything he did was absolutely magical and you can get through this mix you can pick up on so many subtleties and a novice or someone without a trained eye would just pass by and It failed, but it was absolute magic at night.

I didn't want to get ahead of myself, but I go back to the fact that Brett suggested, you know Steve, you need color and he was right that that's great. point and I took notes on this because I went back, I looked at it again. You know, I took it off years ago, but I took it off now and watched it again. It's still like you said the subtleties of this and that's why Brett you talked about it. How do we say that in a perfect world you and Steve work for the first time at WrestleMania or is it the last time it's your loss?

It's not like that and it's a submission match to Steve's point if you listen to the commentary that Vince covers, he says. You know, Steve can beat Bret until he taps out, so at least I cover that because I understand that aspect well, they're not going to think I have a chance because this is Bret's specialty and you want it to be there. There will be some questions about what the ending will be, but you come out, the glass literally breaks for the first time. Bret, you come out, you walk on that glass. I mean, you guys are excited.

Steve, you're such a fucking bighead. Up on the ropes, Bret, but you have power walking down, you could feel that you guys, whether exactly where you wanted it or when you wanted it, something special was going to happen, at least I as a fan and I still am a fan. Watching this, the intensity at the beginning, Bret, did you feel like that was the tone that you know set from the double leg at the beginning? Well, you know, I guess I just want to say from the beginning that, like before Steve came in. I always wanted to go to Vince's office and I always asked why we don't have Steve Austin like it was going to stun Steve I thought but even when he was in WCW and then he went to Vince's office and asked why is he in ECW now he's like, "Oh my God, why is this guy here now?

Why don't we pick him up? Because they were looking for guys all the time and I remember it was about a week or two later, Stephens in the locker room and it started for us." and for WWE at that time, but I always had respect for Stephen, we had a national, it seems like you know we gravitated towards each other working wisely, like we always worked well I don't remember ever having enough of it, you know, we always had great energy in the. sounds and is great, his characters or at least my character always worked very well running for him to work on those commercial shows and in Texas, and I don't go into him talking to them about how I had always wanted to work with them and I actually had a lot to do with him finally getting booked and I finally looked at him and looked at Steve going into that match.

You know, I think the rumble set it up really well and everything Steve cost me the title. against Sid when I gained that final strength, you know, there were so many things that we had that were always in the background, we weren't always the main focus of the shows at the time, but it just really worked well with the parts that we were given and going to Wrestlemania. I mean, again, I knew from my own experience with Bob Backlund and I had one match that I quit and I think it was WrestleMania 11, which was maybe my worst payday. -per event I ever had - no offense to Bob because it wasn't Bob's fault either, but submission matches are our death sentence, they really take half the fun out of false finishes with pinfalls.

I mean, there's a lot more points you can do, it cuts your party in half in what you can do, but knowing that and not knowing two characters, I guess Vince, I, we have to convince the credit, I think for the vision of the match introduction match, because I was like Steve, I thought. It was a thought that it was really going to be a bad match for us to show our talents when we should know, if anything, it should have been a revenge period, but a submission match limited us or at least that's what I thought and felt.

In the same way, look, but I also knew that when events started to change me, she wanted to turn me heel and I realized that even going into that over the last few months, that's when the fans started to change. get the heels on a lot more shows, you know there's ECW or what, but I remember the heels were starting to get over each other and they were starting to root for Steve a lot if he really was a cool heel to love and the baby faces and me I was at the top of the heap, but I've been at the top for a while and they were getting tired of that milk-white baby face, so a change was coming and we could all.

I smelled it in the air and I could feel that Steve was the guy that you knew was going to get over, he was going to get over so hard because anytime you get over something as strong as a heel, naturally, sooner or later you're going to turn. babyface, yeah, that's where the money is, that's where the genius of being a big heel is in the payoff, when you push babyface away a lot. Steve did it and I could see all of that long before it happened and I knew going into that match he needed to have a real Ashe case.

I remembered the psychology that Steve and I were talking about when we walked to the ring, it was like I was in a real school fight, this frenzy, that's what I always remember, just talking, look, this is like a school. fight, you'd like, you know, the kind of guy who's the quarterback on the football team who's been a good guy, you know, everyone in high school knows that he's the kind of guy and Steve it's like this tough guy that just came from another school and there will be, you can watch this type of matchup for a long time and it's like three in a fight after school and this is the match and from the last tackle at the beginning of the game you know that was seen. a sense of realism that I always loved, that I really admired the way we worked, it was one of the easiest matches I've ever had in my life, it was there, it was absolutely, just, a great job, everything and even I always thought that It was Patel's people.

To say this is the best game I've ever had in the sense that no animals were harmed in the making of this wise potato that I gave myself was that when Steve threw me into the hockey boards, yes, bad, as I remember lying there on the cement saying why. I did that? I ran as hard as I could, like I was a turnbuckle. Well, I have a question about that too because I mean, to your point, Bret, that's the art, not harming any animals in the making of this movie. but Steve, you came down the stairs with a backdrop, what the hell did that have to hurt? right dude, that gets them every time you know, because I think I was talking about offense there for just a second, we were 5050 the whole game and if you watch this game, one thing I love is that Brett is contributing, he's probably bringing in a little bit more, it's on a percentage level that I'm, he really picked up on me and then I do a couple of, you know, babyface comebacks. him, but Brett, who really brought the action in the fight, it was kind of 50/50, but I would probably take over at that point, you saw certain points in this match, you know you have to turn it around, so let's go for it. the old for the old pile driver, whether you're on the ground, on the cement or on the stairs, you know, and that's a great place to turn it around and, in fact, because the stairs are slanted, it's easier That actually seems very painful.

It's pretty effective and pretty easy, and getting back to Brett's point about the mansion was very easy because you'll see a call here there, but with the heads down, you'll never see any soft mouse and you'll never know where we came back from. the railing or maybe the zoo after the clothesline from the apron to Brett on the floor and I see the ladder there, well, when the man Brett had talked about this match, there were maybe five to seven things that we knew were going to happen in the The break was called on the march in the ring and that's a shootout and then I see these stairs that are the breasts of an old man lying there that he is selling for me and then the son right when I get up I tell him kick me and he like who says huh I just said kick me because I was going to go up the stairs and I was in college coming at him and the stairs open my head so if he doesn't kick me I really have to hit him with these stairs and of course Brett . you know, he kicks him in the stomach.

I had to go through the kettle backwards and he takes over me. It was just little things like that and feeling that crowd and really hearing the crowd and just knowing, like I said, you can watch that game. and you won't see much communication because it really just went from one thing to another and there's no queues, there's no foreshadowing of this match, you don't say you know, oh you can tell this is going to happen because the match was completely like I said it was. We had vignettes and one of the interesting things about this match was that I didn't see the guys asking questions again.

It was even coming to the end of the game. Well, we knew we wanted to use the bell. the end, we just came out of it, out of nowhere, to wrap up the extension cord and when I did it very dramatically, three rats so everyone understands, hey, he's got a damn extension cord and he hits that young Brad, yeah, but it's the Introduction to Bell, you know, chest put me in a compromising position, brings Bell, puts him on the apron, changes his mind, hey, a steel chair would be better, so he introduced an object in there that we're going to use for the end, it's there. ready, come back, grab the steel chair, he's going to do the Pillman, put your leg in and put your leg on a chair and jump off the turnbuckle.

I beat him to the punch, I hit him with the chair, but there are little things like that and we knew that was going to happen, but it was a very easy match to work with and with all the changes and flights that are happening right now in this match , although it was done in Rustom 1813 or entering Rust Bay in 34. These years later, this match still holds up, whether back then, now or in the future, but because of the physicality, the intensity, yes, no There's nothing crazy coming out of this match, but it's pretty cool, this is the moment it happens.

It comes back to what I mean, I say this very well, I mean, and I think sometimes we get away from the essence of a lot of times what a match is in a sale like that, sometimes that's like losing our form and that. and I think that was evident in this match, when it's done right, you don't need big moves and all that other kind of stuff to complete that, like when you were talking about lifting the stairs and him. kicking you the way you felt, like he almost broke your ankle, you know, and that subtlety in that cell and then when you get in the ring and you know how you were saying how aggressive Brett was in his offense and then he goes up to do the way we've seen him do a million times when guys are in a prone position but you weren't in that position, you were trying to get up off the mat and he's like attacking this wounded animal. that's fighting for your life like you're trying to land any hit with that form as you get up and little things like that to me mean more than just throwing out a big move just for the sake of doing it, you know what I mean and then , when, when you said you got up, he had your foot on the chair and you stopped them and when you got up you didn't start hitting him with the chair that you limped around the ring in and then you know you didn't oversell for the rest of the match but that It affected you the rest of the match, you can see you had that limp that was catching on your dizzy knee and the rest of the match was there and that's what told the story for the rest of the match and it ended, it was just brave and the way that he was attacking me and you know the only place and you're doing the sit-up - he goes down on my legs dropping his arms inside my knee and finally he's going to drag me back to the ring ropes and I just said I'll move and when I did When I moved he fell and hit his butt.

Hey Matt, you know, that's when I hit him with a stunner out of nowhere and to go back into shell mode, but hey man, if you figure it out, then he sells the stunner. I can't win by pinfall like Jerry Lawler, you know? covers the comments in color and you know why I got it. I must add that the commentary in this match was spectacular, many people thought that is what the man is exaggerated, he brings a lot of enthusiasm, passion and is the master storyteller. He is the owner. It is the book or it is the vision.

He knows everythinghe knew about the color, but he knows the story better than anyone because he had the vision and. he knows where we're going Jim Ross was absolutely on fire and Jerry Lawler was on fire, so you know, after that daze, you know, I respond blindly to Brett, who you know I want to go back to cell mode. Brett kicks my leg back. on his back under me and there we go back to the action, it was just tit for tat and nothing spectacular, it was just a workman's match with no crazy punches involved, but what I loved about this match is that it felt real.

It felt like a fight, it seemed legit and I'm not saying all of today's matches, but a lot of today's matches look rehearsed, they look choreographed, this didn't look like that, it looked like two guys trying to beat each other, even the neckbreaker. Brett. you gave steve the fight you two had until you made it, just those little niceties that put him over the top. I mean, the sharpness was there, it looked amazing once they got there, but to get there there was a fight and desire. everyone would come back and even just watch a little bit, watch everything, but just look at what I'm talking about in that neckbreaker and you know, the best

wrestling

is always about pretending to be real, you know it has to be, you know.

I want to be real, nothing. I think if there's something that really shines in this match it's the fact that we both had a realistic style. Steve was a real character, so there are a lot of tough guys like Steve in the world when his character was. he was forming, he was like a cool character. I remember liking him as a character, I think, and you know, as much as a fan, he was just a great character to interact with, to kind of mix everything up. and you know, I love combat because of its realism. I think I always tell people that when you watch the UFC it's like it's a really, really good UFC fight, you know your heart breaks at the end because you know they hurt each other as much as they do and in this fight it's okay, you know everyone knows it works, but this fight offers everything that the best UFC fight can offer and in any case, they don't use chairs, I don't use belts. use it, so this is an intense guy, very physical, you know, the build up to this match, it's

wrestling

, the realism of it.

I think I always, always tell people that it's the most real type of match that I put on for people and yet when I say it was one of the easiest matches of my career, it was very easy and I did it. It makes me laugh sometimes when I see it a lot because I remember I had told Steve that we had talked about getting the color in the match and I said everything as I remember, I asked him about how to do it, he said he had done it several times or when he did it once more or less like that and I remember I said you didn't want to take any risks, arrest.

Trust me, let me do it and he never trusted me, which is the first thing I learned in the business is to never let anyone do that to you and Steve totally trusted me. I said I only trust myself because I'll do it right and I remember there was a lot of heat, I mean I could have been as troublesome as Steve at the time, they hadn't had a blood policy for a while and there's the toy companies and everyone, Ron gets grabbed by the butt and like there's no blood and I'm like, okay, let's pretend it was an accident, what are we going to do?

And you know, I've talked to Steve and said, but if you change your mind, it was a pretty serious decision to go in there, make that call and have me make that call for Steve or vice versa. You know, I said like I said, if you change your mind, we'll abort, well, you know, if you're really uncomfortable. About it, we won't do it, I said, but if you give me the green light we will do it and there will be no turning back, so we were in the ring and I think he is somewhere in there right before they kicked me out. outside the ring by Steve Irene, you know, if he wants me to do it, he says, he says, yeah, and then he throws the ropes at me, he says, maybe it's better or not.

He had already taken it out, that is. My hands when I land on the ground I take it out and I remember Steve is going to throw me against the railing and I'm flipping Steven, if you look I'm going to come in here with Steve or I'm screaming so it's like it's too much. late and I remember I walked up and I remember you know I'm looking right at all the fans and Steve is looking at the fans he's right in front of everyone even once you don't like him a foot away and you know he we did. and if you look at it, it's absolutely perfectly done, there's almost no big open cut and it's not just the perfect eye.

I'd rather have it as a color master mirror, yeah, another beautiful part of that. The game is like ball throws, you know, ball throws are almost a cartoon now and they've been around for a long time, they do the ball throw, the punch to the arm, to the crotch, that kind of thing when the guys They stop and stuff, he's always nice. lame and what I knew was in this match with Steve when I hit them in the corner and then when he kicked me in the crotch, you know there's no one laughing in that grout, so it's like a shot. like absolutely totally real and it's and the work behind it, I mean, it's nothing like the gym of hers, but she takes me perfectly and it's just beautiful.

You know, you know expert fighting skills, you know two guys who really work well together and I like it. I'm watching on my screen here at my house and I'm just seeing where I am, where I just cut to Steve and it's like there's no other way all the fans are watching and no one saw anything. I remember it better than ever. Understand that we were number one watching, yes, we watched it together, yes, yes, and we looked at that reversal, even just the reversal, if you, anyone in the industry that's listening to this again, look at that reversal and look at the way that is done and the way Steve enters that barricade.

It looked like you ate that thing and Marky Eaton was running, Howard Finkles was running and then Brett, you just kind of protected yourself from Vincent a little bit, that quick, but there's no way he wouldn't do it. I thought, oh, that was a hard way. I remember seeing it. I thought okay, that would be hard, there's no way and I also think that the distance that Steve traveled when the reversal happened was almost like whether you did it consciously or unconsciously, but for me, when I took it, it was special. When I saw him recently it was one of those where, oh, the wheel came off again, you know he's in trouble and in reverse, you know, we can't put the weight on the leg and boom, like that for me, everything that. things relate in terms of psychology and that's when things really start to work, that's when the story, I mean, that's what makes a match, you know, we'll come out after that, after we were on a track , are the shots to the stomach and the breasts that come out. he's really working my best sections with five punches and then he's going to hit the ropes, dodging the delivery between the second and the third, okay, that's the place where he goes down the bread wagon and the blood spits it out and picks it up. while me because I'm thinking about bread. up because we had the crowd hook line and the lead from the beginning of that double leg and if you remember the double leg at the beginning of the match, I gave it a look.

I'm looking to my right because you know I'm not going to look at it directly I'm just looking into space and then I do the attack so I look at it often boy we were on it so let's go to the drum beat place and then I avoid it. He falls as I pick him up. What I said was that we had a hook line and the sinker was a decision, which means if you want to do it, do it, if you don't want to do it, we have a safety, you know. he comes and the way he goes and I do this is what a Surgeon General is and again the reason I wasn't going to do it myself because I didn't have the seniority in the company and I didn't want to get my Mitch handed me my ass , so it was under Brett's insurance policy and Brett did it and he did it so fast when you looked, look at the way he walks towards me, it's actually been the right triceps with that little gasp, but you never saw him do the cut on my forehead and then he gives me a radical couple of inches and he gives me a big right hand and when he gives me that big right hand I do a big shake with my head and I splash blood all over Jerry.

Lawler's notes Jerry Lawler years ago showed me Adam in his briefcase his notes from that same WrestleMania, only my blood was splashed on his notes, it was incredible but you couldn't see it, it looked like a shoot, it looked like a hard man on the railing and the man even today and it was just that the cut was probably only about a quarter of an inch long and it wasn't deep and it hadn't taken any Aspen for some reason, you know, 95 percent of the time. The time I got the color involved, it really works for me, it's a great image and I don't know how Brett hit the spot where he hit him, but it wasn't a cut, it wasn't anything, it needs stitches, it wasn't. anything harsh was just absolute protection, you know, another part of that match was a great moment that almost backfired for a moment, it was like when we talked about Bell sending him to the apron and I appreciated these kind words about that earlier, but we had Bell on a certain side and we left him there intentionally, so Steve threw me out at the end of the game, maybe he threw me on Bell's side, Steve, you know, come on.

I didn't really think about it and besides, Steve threw me on the wrong side of the Ring and when he threw me out he realized like, ah, you know it's the wrong side, the wrong side and now he jumps out of the ring like it's like he's hoping to fix it, But I'm going to fix this. You know, somehow I'm going to get to the other side. Steve goes to get the cable. I guess that's what it was. Can I if you look at it? I know that in a second or two I got up and fell back into the ring and took a hit inside the ring and then, as if dazed and confused, I staggered and fell on the other side with the list of bells, but then Steve would have entered the ring and I would have been on the wrong side where there is no bell and I couldn't reach the bell and he would have let me know, it's just a small thing, but it was a case? of you know, I think you can see when Steve walks down to grab the cable like he's hoping everyone fixes it and is in the right place and I'm right where I need to be at the end and it works proven suspects it just looks like I'm trying to get out of there, you can escape, well, yeah, and to me he just looks like Steve, this you know, he's a frantic guy like those those

stone

cold

bursts. that was one of those and it's like it's hectic at that point and look who knows what's going to happen, but I want to quickly back up to the use of color and this, and you know, I understand why don't you don't do it now, I understand all the risks, the ramifications, the possibilities and all that, but can you think of another combination where the use of color means so much and, in the truest sense, where red means green?

Imagine this combination without that color well, I think that's all I remember, even when I finished. I don't remember anyone, no one, everyone thought it was the hard way again, we just accepted that, you know, it was never a big question and I'm having They asked me about it and I said no, it was a hard way and that It was the last favor, and you know, it's funny how it looked, it was the perfect touch of realism, you know, it was the visual of it all. I think you know, I can't say I saw it, other than I knew this is where those you know, I wasn't a big juice guy, you know, I was never a big juice guy, there are certain situations and this was one of they.

Do you really need some juice to make it work and at this point I love them? This period of time in business, people still thought wrestling was real, you know, like a lot of people did and at work that we, you know. Doing this match still gives people who especially have the need to find people from foreign countries who don't really see much rest in their Knoll eight, this is as real as anything they've ever seen, you know, and it's legal. that time period and how people didn't know like the internet today or they knew who was turning heel towards wrestlers and yeah you know this wasn't like that there was still a little bit of a veil in the business and I know from talking to Countless veterans, including my father, after this game, this was their favorite game.

You know, I've had so many people like Dory Funk and people talk to me about this match. You know, it's his favorite game. What would they all have done years before, realistic and believable wrestling matches of the highest caliber of Harley Race? You know, all the guys that came before were hard-working wrestlers who sold realism and I think you know, really when? I look at this time, this period, I go, you know, it was really changing, you know, the fans changed and there's a confusing title coming to Chicago. I had a lot of kids who were my fans.

I was still with little kids and The little kids and I started losing the men's team like they were just starting out, but you know I still had the veterans, but they were starting to go for something different: mostly young people and not in the audience of wrestling, we're like teenagers or men, I think under 30, and they were starting to opt for the bad guys and Steve. You're a unique character, you know, which even then this one I really loved Stevie. I know that theSteve's career took off in all kinds of ways after I left WWE, but I mean, I loved this period of time.

I'm, you know, a great villain. and such a good promo that was fresh and different and you know, I've always been very proud of Steve and his career and I was this match. I know, like Steve said, maybe it had a lot to do with his success. Steve would have gotten to where He needed to go no matter what because he was too good of a worker and too much of a talent, but I think this was what you know, I just did what Steve needed and I knew how to work for the guy and both of them, already You know.

There's never a struggle in this match, there's never a question to wonder what Steve is doing, you know whatever Steve does whether it's a neckbreaker or a stunner and I don't know where it's like it always makes sense and you know it and I cut it. . with a kick to the knee or a thumb and me and we you know we always had I think from day one we had good chemistry. I don't remember ever getting a bad match anywhere and you know it all the time. We worked, there was always a big smile when we saw each other back and it's like television, that was great, we loved working together, listen, you know, I loved every minute of Steve's work, you know, Brett, one of the ones I wanted to ask you well, yeah, because I think you said it before and what you were talking about felt a little bit like a changing of the guard and you realized that you were losing the audience arts, but she still had different. parts of the audience from the point of view of maybe based and so I was obviously very attuned to who was encouraging me and who was not so well or who was bullying me, that's what I was really worried about and that was I'm trying of being a heel and this is a transition match but I've always been as deaf as I am and hard of hearing when I didn't tell him to read I could hear a mouse fart and then I'm really in tune with that crowd I'm listening and feeling everything they're giving me and I know, I know who I'm going to face, I know who I'm not going to face and you know when this match ended, I'm lying in a puddle of The blood that I passed out from the Sharpshooter was one of The greatest feelings I have ever had in my life.

You know, there was still work to do on my part to get to where the vets ultimately wanted me to go. There was work to do. The chest end, you know, the clover helps that and the later chest promotions would help, but I just remember lying there and I didn't really know it, I always knew it, I knew it was a big catch, I knew no one was probably going to catch me. continue. and we just blew the roof off that place so I was feeling good about what we had done in the small picture the big picture was still to happen so my question to you Bret as I see myself selling the sniper and limping through the Now and very often camp starts and I let them in for about three seconds.

I do not do it. I do not recognize. I look at them to recognize them. I don't shake my head in a bad way. I let them in just a fraction of the time. a second tear and many people work well looking at us without even realizing what I'm doing. I'm not trying to suddenly change, baby, but I'm acknowledging the fact that they started singing Austin, so I knew we were. D rock the joint Bret when you left, you know people were cheering you on, the only guy that slipped you and you turned him around, what did you feel after going through a hell of a man?

It was a physical fight, we had a great time, we told a great story. but what were your feelings knowing where you were going as you walked back to the locker room area? You know, I knew I was going to turn heel the next night in a very subtle but strong way, like the way I did that card about the The next night I knew where I was going. I was worried. Know? I didn't know. I wasn't sure how the United States. The fashion thing was going to happen and I was confident in a lot of it, but I knew it would be honest, it's like psychology, something you learn in life and I think I learned psychology.

I knew the psychology of the match from a fight at school, I remember that there was a fight very similar to this one, while I was watching it, in one minute there was a kind of baby face against a tough, tougher guy or that guy who was more into more. Trouble and stuff like that was kind of rough at school and he was new and I just remember the fight and I remember it was a really good face to face fight and the two guys you know were doing a lot of shopping, it was intense. I remember finally Babyface won with a big punch or a knockout punch at the end of the fight and the other guy tapped out and I remember watching it and somehow I remember that even though the bad guy started and he chose the fight and it was now he was expected to win and the baby faced one won and he just beat him fair and square.

I remember he changed at school like the next day, but God had lost, everyone loved him, everyone had more, he had more sympathy and you know, he became something. that he never changed anything anyway, everything played out the way I remembered it in school and I remember Steve's character at that time and I kind of knew that he knew with the blood and the way that match came out, it's like I knew I had helped make it look like Steve was done for everything he had done on his own, but I knew that that combination and working together and rebuilding that masterpiece was in fact a masterpiece and that was going to be, already.

You know, a game changer for him and I think I just sped up a lot for Steve. I think everything was going to happen to him anyway, but I also think Steve learned a lot from working with me, I mean we had worked on Survivor Series and which was really good, we had great chemistry in that match and I recommend anyone to If you want to see a good match you also see it because it was just as good or comparable in many ways, but when we got to Wrestlemania, I think we had worked hard enough that we didn't want to do what we had done before, so we had to change it and do something different and you know, that's it, like it was the kind of strong, tough fight we had.

I loved it because of that psychology and I think when I came back I knew that Steve was going to be a you know and I remember Steve talking to me but I didn't want to become a babyface too quickly, I wanted it to be a very slow evolution in which I know it made me think of a lawyer that will be a year later and I was thinking, well, good luck trying it, you know there should be a tentative babyface a lot quicker than thinking in a year, but I wanted you to know anything that Steve wants to do.

I want to help you achieve it. that and if you want to take his time before he became a babyface and I was trying to help with that and you know, I think the psychology that matched was just the perfect formula for Steve to throw himself even more into that character than A character. tough and not to mention I think the hard work genius and Vince playing the bed promoter and everything that came in the future was classic stuff and new and ahead of its time, nothing would have been done like that in the business. before and Steve had to jump right into all of that, it was perfect timing and I've always been very happy about that, you know, in this match, I think you know, Steve, you wanted it to happen, you know, maybe later, but there were two points .

In this, it was undeniable to me that you knew that you were definitely going to become a Babyface and maybe you sowed the seeds to become the biggest Baby Face in the history of the industry and it was after the crazy shot that, by the way, Again, back to your point, Brett, it meant something and it looked like a basement helmet like your nuts were in your cheeks after that, but then it was the chest buckle, it was the liquidation of that, but it was Steve selling that fired up Chuck to the corner, double stomping, bird blood everywhere, that's fine and me, Steve, when you were in the Sharpshooter and you raised that hand and stuck it like you were in a fucking ditch digging in the dirt getting ready to go up for that first flexion.

I was like, oh man, oh, that was it, there are for me the two moments where, as a fan, it's undeniable, I would agree, I would agree with that. period too and I was thinking the same thing thinking the same thing and also if my memory serves me correctly when you hit the double bird was the only time you did it in the match because the roof flew off like you were stomping on it. in the corner threw those boring birds and the roof around one of the place and we just did it, it's a real quick clover for that one, well I did it on the clover because you know Brenda's working a ton so you know I was wondering . give up or that I want to make sure, so I just gave him the double birds so that no one hardly counted, but you know, and they covered a comment without comment, you know I was answering his question with sign language and saying, "go back." to Bret, you know, I came into this, you know, I got, I got a good response, but it was more him.

I guess he got something positive from it. I received many tears, but I had. He was more of a heel. Brent was a lot. more like a baby, kind of like a heel, just reduced from the entrances and then, uh, I have something, there are two moments, one where I shot with the chair, caught him with the chair in the turnbuckle, hit him with the flats here on the Pick it up again with a punch basically like sending it to the turnbuckle. You know, that's when we changed it again, but then we went back to the stomping in the corner.

I remember trampling people on corners before, but I'd never done anything like that. this and it was totally on the fly, totally organic. I just start because when I talk about, you know, big babyfaces, they always stay babyfaces and I talk about it on almost every show because not everyone understands it for as long as I do. saying this if you're going to be a big hill you gotta have a main street you gotta be legit but you gotta be a man you gotta have a main street you know when it's time to have that heat like a baby face, you gotta have fire now all I knew was that I needed to have it because you know if you're going to cure a baby, there's that explosion, what's that guy that's pulling out his entire wallet, it's time to make that comeback, so it was a display of fire and the people just brought in, they just came like fire for it and it was just stomp, stomp, just the breath, the way the breath was sold, it went down and then I started getting into the rapid fire, you know, people do that to the today.

Have you emulated that place and then there was a double bird and the last one was a stiff one straight to the forehead and it totally worked in Tokyo, but I know I didn't kill it, but man, that was totally spontaneous and that's how I really felt and that is what that character did and you know, it ended up being the perfect thing and especially with the direction it was going to go, if I keep killing a babyface, you have to cheer up, you have to do it. You have to get emotionally involved if this guy has been, we've been fighting back and forth and the stakes, everything is on the line.

I'm not going to tell this guy to leave me and he's not going to ask me a question, it's a fucking fight. and then that fire was paramount you know you know that match and where it would go because as you listen to the commentary it's all slanted like Lawler said Bret loses once you're going to complain about the next thing he's a crybaby and then they covered my ass like a

stone

, they never said he quit, so all the comments were online, but that double point in the corner was just on the fly, improvised magic, I knew it had to happen, dead rat too, we, no I didn't do it .

Say Hamilton, I'm going to trample you ten times. I don't know how many times it started, it was Tony improvising and it worked, and I want to go back to what Adam was saying too and just point this out. Nobody took a buckle like Bret Hart took a buckle. I'll just say that no one seemed like an end, yeah, you know, he cried and took a dose. I always found myself on the front and rear turnbuckles. I think I'm paying. for all that now, but you know, in this match, you know, I think there's a lot of fun things that I did, little things that are really exceptional, you know, the fight.

I remember one of the few things we went out on. That type of ring that we got permission for or were told it was okay for us to do was fight in the crowd and you know no one had ever done that. I remember, yes, this was by accident and the arrest and the shoulder where I was was planned as if you know you have permission to go fight in the crowd, in the stands, wherever you want, as long as you want to do this dummy well. I think that was a result of us complaining about the submission aspect of the No I was a big fan of that idea and Steve already said you know the punches I remember fighting and throwing punches at Steve. and even if you look at like Preston today and you see the punches, the punches in this match are so close, I mean the fans are there so it's like they're eight inches away from me throwing a punch and I know I know .

That's kind of a clover that pushes guys out of the way and stuff, but there's no security or anything, but it's just look at it, I mean, I love the fact that I control these hits on Steve and he's selling them and they're right in front of everyone and they are gone. Wow, that's so reallike it looks up close and it's not like on camera, it's like everything looks so real, I like the backdrop and the fights in the crowd, you know, I love this match fruit, because you know like you're saying that We just switched back and forth all the time like Steve didn't.

I tend to say whatever and I'm aware of Steve, um, you know what he's trying to do and what his character is like, and I don't know what, there's absolutely no rush or panic anywhere in this match, it's two guys who are totally relaxed. and stressful at each other like we're not leaving, there's no doubt, we're fighting or even because Bell is on the wrong side, there's no panic, it's just super calm, back to, you know, fixing what we have to do to continue telling us. this beautiful story and I love that about this match, that we always had this chemistry and now you probably know, when I think back, it's probably like back then there was Bader and guys like that and deep down I think reason means doing it.

You guys kept working together we didn't want to keep tying up Evader Ron Boy you know the rumble is a big part of the heat of this match when he tricked me out of the rumble he was still a babyface and I'm really mad going into this match he he ruined my title with the SID if I was in the chair on the platform and cost him the belt my fourth title and all that, so it's cool. I remember going out as I should have wanted. Kill this guy I'm this guy who fucked me at every turn and he's a son of a and I'm going to go out and do it like this is a big heat match Steve is a super heel I used so much heat Going into this, Steve was a complete badass, like if you watch that Rumble and you see the look on Steve's face when he sees me come out, he's totally a badass who panics immediately when he hears my music and all that, and you know.

It just changes all that to this dogfight we have and Steve is getting that sympathy and everyone goes to the end, you know how much they love Steve Austin more than the guy who loves him and even though I was a good guy, I fought with Steve. I always loved that about my fights. I fought the same way I would have fought him when he was a babyface, just with a little different facial expressions and just little things, but I think it was two guys who had an idea of ​​what we were about. I wouldn't do anything to create each other's characters and I think I always trusted Steve in the ring and Steve always trusted me, we always had a kind of understanding of what we were trying to do together and I always thought it was just magical.

You know the whole time, none of the other little things that really, especially at the end when he spoke, you know you've rolled all the way to the other side to get to the right side where the Bell was and then Steve walks into Rob's house. the cable around you and you were desperate, you swung the bell back and you hit him the same way he was lying there and it looked like it, just don't visualize it and then you try to get up and you go back into the fight and you grabbed his foot and the way you suddenly pulled him was like he was like an animal like jumping on a wounded gazelle like a lion jumping on a gazelle jumping on him and he did to take advantage of that that injury and you put them in the Sharpshooter and then you start going from there and you like those images there with Steve fighting like to me, that may be the best visual image, I think in the history of Wrestlemania, you know, and everyone and talking to Brett and listening to him, you know I was just watching this match and you are 100% right.

I never knew he threw you in the wrong corner and I saw you covering because I remember going. I went out to get the extension cord and I just saw you, I threw you the wrong way and I never knew that here are two other things when we were fighting, this is one of my famous things that if you look at some of my it matches me very closely. you'll see do this like there's a guy this is when I used to walk around with the cokes and say your cokes while you're still in your chair there's that guy there he wasn't a plant he was a real guy selling soda so I'll see you.

I didn't explode at all. I needed to breathe because we're both in impeccable shape, but I could use this Coker end for water, so I stole one of the cokes. I drank it, my character wouldn't do that, plus I was a little thirsty and then I threw the coke at Brett. I grab the tray from that guy again because he was going to wrap it around Brett's head, but he didn't give it to me. for me to tie it to the back of his head, so I said what I can't stand, I can't fight this guy and Brett is so big, he should do it, and then another thing that happens in the match from the beginning, we leave the ring. and I breath suplex and cross him on that railing, so I do it right, the security guard is in the way, so the bread hits his leg and breaks it a little bit and we wanted to maximize that bubble a little better, but the guy came in.

On the way and as I leave, I go to Brett's clothesline and as I clothesline Brett, he is straddling the garden relic. He watches his back at the start of the match as the bread passes through the kettle, over the railing to the audience side. I can feel his arm under my stomach and he starts to squeeze. I'm thinking, man, I better take my arm off because it's going to break because something has to give here, so if you saw me spray my right arm with a clothesline, I can fill it underneath. Me and I got out of him, you see, you'll never see me do it, but I was aware of the fact that his arms were about to break if I didn't get out between the foothold and the railing, so yeah.

I never realized he got you on the wrong side, Brett, but you're right, you know you get tired, I actually remind you, if you look closely you'll see you cursing at him as you walk to the apron. to the wire because you used to telegraph me because you knew that in the ring you said something with long lines. I went up where I'm on the wrong side and it was like okay so I know and I realized we were on the wrong side too but you were aware that I was walking down and basically you should know it was okay I'm going down , to get the cable now and somehow you got to the other side and that's exactly what I did, it was because you kicked I told myself I needed to get to the other side, so I mean, you were still, you know, on top of you, you know you were totally on target, but you know it wasn't like we had it covered as soon as I saw this.

Again, there are two guys totally working together throughout the whole thing, and when I watch it again, I know this is one of the first PPVs I've had in a year. or so that it wouldn't hurt me, as I remember even a series of survivors. I fought with Steve. He was in a lot of pain. I've been away for about a year. I fought with Steve after work - Shaun and supposedly went home to rest and all this. things and I took it, I took some time off and when I came back, that was my job for Steve, but I was very sore after teacher Steve, who worked very hard.

He hadn't worked it like I worked a couple of times in the summer and worked. Anyway, in moderation, I was out for six months, so man, when I started wrestling after Survivor Series, I was in a lot of pain every night. He dragged me back to my room every night and took me, I swear, all the way to the Royal Rumble to get to where it didn't hurt like I'd broken again, but I remember being in a lot of pain, everything hurt and I was so sore and almost getting to where I was wondering if I could go back to my old form and stuff because I was just a canary and I started trying to come home after the rumble and when I got to Wrestlemania it was like it was a really good moment in my career in the one who was back on the path he was on. my timing after that bad break and if anything it proved effective in the sense that we had a better match than that Survivor Series match and I don't know how Steve went down but that Survivor Series match but I thought it was so well like We could have done it, I thought it was a great match, I love competing and I thought the intensity and everything was so good that I thought it would be the best nation we've ever had and then of course this WrestleMania was just the climax . even beyond that, it was so good.

I guess I always compared myself to us through a good school fight and there was absolutely no psychology of a really good school fight between two really tough characters who were getting ready to give a fight and a lot of emotion should not be underestimated because of how important is a referee for a match like this and he also tells us a little bit about the importance and how well Shamrock played his part in this because I mean he and I think the job of a good referee is to stay out of sight until that the time comes to not be out of sight, and like he just played the role perfectly and especially until the end, like how important his role was to the overall scope of this, I thought it was extremely important to the combat just because this mismatch was built up, it was a hot angle, you know, Stone Cold Steve Austin, the heartthrob, and it was a submission match, whatever happened, I love Shamrock and I was watching. the entrance of him watching his entrance to the ring and then I saw my entrance to the ring, you know, and a little bit of interaction between him and I and then my notes here or shamrock goes to the ring, he looks great, he has tremendous star power . a danger factor to take the club, if something got out of control, he could fix it because he was the most dangerous man in the world for a shot that he had to have, he had charisma and he was a perfect rest of this game and he didn't.

To try to divert attention from my dinner bread, he played it very down the middle, very vanilla and I thought Kin Shamrock was essential to the match and I thought his performance was phenomenal and his interaction with Bret is super important for Ken. character, but also Father Bret's breasts character, so I thought Shamrock was phenomenal, yeah, you also know I didn't have to worry too much when he walked in, when you walked in the crowd, when he was there, eh, no No, he didn't know. We didn't tell him anything about the color, we never mentioned it, he will never say it and he won't say it when he sees the blood and the combination, it gives him that realism that he needs to play.

I thought: wow, he's nice! for lack of a better word that marks my saint a little, like knowing that he didn't see that coming, you know, I don't think he was like that, you know, things seem worse, I'm sure in his life, but I just think. It kind of blew him away like, wow, this is like I didn't see it coming and that was another thing I loved about his reactions and how he plays, how it gets more intense after the blood, even like on the floor outside. from the ring, right? After it happens and all that, it's like he brings himself into the whole story with the intensity of realism and I think it was the right thing not to tell him because he created another element of surprise that you can't capture. if you tell them it's also a testament to the match itself, but for Ken, the fact that you forget that the referee is Ken Shamrock, you know, because he stays out of the way like a referee is supposed to do until his moment at the end of the game. the match after it's over and it really helps you prepare for it, he'll spin around and you know he's there in the right places, I guess, and not there and he's kind of a ghost ghost like in the other places, which is, you know .

Good hard work because how does a guy with arms like that, you know, at that point somehow take, you know, just disappear from the game pretty much except when necessary, so here's the thing, guys, Am I a special referee for several high-profile matches? a referee is extremely difficult. I have some less respectful ones, especially the good ones, in this house, saying that you take a guy who has worked for ten years, like in my case, and when I was refereeing for thirteen years, whatever, we know the rules, but we don't know how to rest, it's like asking a referee to work a real match there, so they're two different things, so Shambo did a great job of staying away, but he was always visible and never tried to draw attention to himself . like I said he's fired up he looks like a million dollars on the charisma factor star power it was great and I thought of one thing that really contributed to the match as you added to every match one of my biggest thrills when I started .

I came to the WWF, well I'm such a die-hard Finkel fan and when I was walking to the ring and I heard, you know Victoria Texas, you know when 252 pounds Stone Cold Steve Austin is a given, I can still do the Howard thing. there and I love all the other announcers they brought in since then, but when Howard Finkel was announcing me, that was the one and it felt like a great match and besides that, because I was, you know, noticing your my entrance and Bret is when you work with Bret and most of the time and we worked with Bret we were building regardless of who was in the Summer Slam match, whatever it was, or Survivor Series, whatever that match was, it was a great match and it was Great atmosphere and it was that in the garden, I think Greg crowded the ring, Mike was different, he had a different feel, but I love that, but this is because of where Brett is in his career and where I am in my career.

I made my entry aftershamrock you know, you rested coming out in the baby face position or a champion with an ax or in the veteran and man position when that guitar riff comes on and those streamers or those sparks that go off on top of the electricity and the way that that power cord that Jim Johnston wrote just makes its way through the crowd and I'm there and I'm ready to go. I have never said everything. I'm ready to rock and roll, just a huge chill running down your spine and your entire body, and if you don't.

I don't get it, you're dead or you don't really have a vision for the business or when you're working with someone who's done like Brett was and then here he comes with that intensity and that focus, do this like a total shoot and it's a feeling, it's one of the best feelings in the world, like I said, being in a pool of blood was great because it was all over or we did the job at hand, but one of the most fun things is when you work with kids. With Brett's caliber, his interest once will send shivers down your spine and give you goosebumps.

I knew at the time, even though you know we could go to bed, we probably weren't, but I knew that when Brett was going to get in the ring, I knew it was going to be in every sense of the word and it meant a lot to me to hear the response that got because we are playing with each other. My father depends on him. You know, his earnings depend in part on me and the work he does. but it means a lot to you because the way the crowd reacts you can always steal from them and if you don't have them at the beginning, right in the entrances, you can catch them with the whip in the match, but we had that. crowd from the beginning from the entrances and it was exciting just to be in a ring when that guy gets three, well, you know, talking about crowd reactions and I know I mentioned this when you hit that hand and set up. you know, go deeper and higher with that flex, you can hear that crowd that crowd becomes like a tsunami, you know at that point when you're getting there and that's such a huge aspect of that's when it's changing and they get that profile shot of the blood coming out of your nose and, as you know, kind of like Rocky Balboa in the air and that to me is a game changer and then that iconic shot that's on the back of a t-shirt blood from a rock.

I used that thing for a year straight, that shot is maybe two seconds, but it changes the course of everything, so you talk about the crowd reactions, I mean that one was pivotal, but I want to bring up a really interesting point that I forgot until I saw it today is the fact that you really broke it and Brett, you held on, you didn't let go, but you fell and that was so big. It's like a subtle, subtle point, but it was cool, it's the fact that oh, he broke it mmm, but man, that pit bull still focused on that for me, it was such an important moment to add to the realism and us.

Speaking of subtleties, that was a big subtlety to me. In fact, I remember when we were making the ring when we talked about it. I remember saying I compared it to that thing in Cuckoo's Nest where Jack Nicholson shows that thing. Think about the attempts to throw over the sink. through the window or whatever to get out of there, yeah, the prisoners, it was the same thing I said, you know, almost like when he gets out of that sniper if you want, maybe that's where Steve, that's where, there It's where Steve, that's where they fall for Steve like he's a babyface, yeah, 'cause no one kicks, no one gets out of the Sharpshooter, so I sensed he was kicking and I actually started, that's when he starts to form a bridge in the blood and He's pushing, that's the moment that's right there says it all so that moment this is done as if it were forever and it doesn't matter what happens after that point Steve is a babyface from that second because he starts to see it loose like when he doesn't He does it and I retreat and regain my balance and put him in the Sharpshooter, it's too much for the fans, it's like it's too much thinking, that's the beauty of psychology, that's the example of the psychology of that match, but like that is. where it all turns that's where Steve falls in love with him as a hero and what he did in this was heroic and the thing is we knew I was going to pass out in the Sharpshooter and the color was the added feature that no one else knows, only two people knew about it and that was me on Brett, but when I was on that sniper, you know, Brett bream, I didn't say "okay man, maybe 30 seconds and you'll tap or let a man, tap, we didn't , we didn't discuss any of that, it was total background work on the lesson, feeling the crowd, you know, I started, I started dating before I did, that's like I delve into the Mack you're talking about

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, you know and. do that, you know that guy, when you look back, that's nothing, he got up to leave it, you know, I miss you, trying hard, digging deeper, oh boy, here comes the big push, but that was a trust factor between Brett and I, and you know I didn't want to disrespect his Sharpshooter because it was such a, you know, devastating ending when he applied it to anyone to last, you know, a minute and a half to two minutes with that thing with blood coming out. of my head.

It was just an incredible image, but it's not something we talked about and yeah, I almost got kicked out and that was the confidence factor and it was two guys out there feeling the crowd working the crowd and you know, I wouldn't want Brett to be there. giving. me the office when I pass out you know it was just him doing his part me doing my part it's two professionals on the same page at the same time there are two things so good when I watch this match and I watch it when we're in the corner Bret is giving me some Fierce right hands and I had done a selling job in the corner facing the corner hanging with both hands.

Brett spins me around but he starts giving me those big right hands and I give him that big shot and you can hear Jim Roscoe who came down from the real Saskatoon so no boobs he just sells a dead cell which is a shoot and then I'm not and I start, you know, trying to climb using the ropes and it was very effective because you know. He just hit me in that corner. What I wish I had done now or this is what could have happened if I could go back in time. He'd have milk just sitting, you know, on my butt in that corner. shot, you know, we played him for what he was.

I got up when we started taking care of business and it worked, but what if I had waited 30 more seconds before moving because Brett wasn't going anywhere and then what if I had waited a minute? and I'm not sitting here, you know what the timer is ticking, I'm just watching the games saying, damn, if I'm not a man for a little longer, how much more could we have attracted? that was something I wondered about and then I also wondered if I had really broken the Sharpshooter, I reversed it and put it on Brett and finally he reversed it and put it back on me, I passed out, that doesn't mean, what else do I think? he came out perfect on that front, but Brett, do you see what I'm saying about that ball shot?

We could have used it for five minutes if we had to. Yeah, you know, I always get angry when I hit a ball that could have been wasted. You know, they're just stupid, they don't even look good, but sometimes they're good, that's why you don't want to turn them into a joke or become just doing them all the time, but when you need an ace under the table this is great, it's such a low shot and at the same time, but the blood and everything in me just cries autumn mercilessly in the corner it's like, come on, you know, there's a little bit like someone just kicked this guy.

There's crazy stuff, yeah I get it when it happens, it's like somehow it's that really bad thing that anyone could do to the babyface that I was still the babyface, it's just brilliant psychology and I don't know where it came from that point, but I remember thinking, you know because I always worry about ball throws in the sense that they could be and sometimes they don't react well and I remember thinking when I look back at it and I see how I fell backwards and how I catch it . That's how it would actually work and you know, it's great psychology.

Great, it's not about exaggerating that ball shot. Just the way I've seen it, the way I hit the mat, the way I stood still, you know, I could have sat down. there for a minute and everyone in that building bought that ball shot to the tee and it's so cool, simple, psychology and wrestling should be as simple as this match, everything in this match is so simple and I love all the little ones . things like Steve said we're like I'm going to get to the bell and then I changed my mind, go get a chair and they leave now this one doesn't add up I want it I saw that's it, you grab the second one and there's a Coke spilled- Coke you just added, you really did it, it's like, oh, they just grabbed what was there, whether it was coke in a cafe, whatever it was that was added.

It sounds like you said with some of today. fighting everything seems rehearsed there's no rehearsal here and there was no rehearsal you know, we didn't talk a little bit about the things we're going to do and stuff, but you know, I think the way I played that with the chair and the Bell and all that and how this chair went is not good enough, everything was just spontaneous, but if you want, we also went out to the ring enough, this is a session. I remember we talked only about eye contact on the N we were looking at.

To each other I said we should try looking down and I said you should come right at me and pick me up like a shot and just attack from there like two guys on the playground soccer field, whatever at school. in the big fight and everyone is there and it's like everything is said, it seems like we move on and the guy just comes, it was just great psychology throughout. I mean, really you know, I always think of this match as the Iron Man match, even Lashauwn. The Wembley match that Davey was in was really great for me, realism type of matches and this is great realism and it's all the work, it's all just the rhythm, even the rhythm that we cut.

I recommend it for any fighter, you will cut the pace. in a match you want to match the base, the same base that we are cutting in this match, it's not too fast, yeah, it's not too slow, today's super intense, no one felt anything, you know, and we get a lot out of simple things . elbow, I kick him in the stomach, you know, you know, and then we build things like a nut shot that doesn't happen every day with the chair shot, the bell, you know, I love the bell shot at the end because I know I totally missed Steve if you look at that, I totally went over his head.

I didn't hit anything. I remember hoping he looks okay because I didn't touch anything. I didn't know them. Steve just Steve just reacted. I will miss them completely. I figured that whatever, I hit him on the back with that bell and it looks great on TV and you know, even the cord that Steve is wrapping the cord around my neck, which you know, if you wrap it somewhere on the neck with the cord that way, you could just strangle them, yes, if it gets tangled, but I mean Steven, it's very loose, but at the same time you looked, there is no danger to him, like they never cut off my oxygen, but at the same time it seems so real. a parachute and that's what I love about these fights, it has all the intensity of a UFC fight except no one got hurt and this was done so perfectly and even took the juice out of it that it was like you could put a dime on it in Steve's head and he went and talked, talking about the level of this match, you know, Steve, that you talked about before, you know, about getting the flush in this match and not feeling at that moment that you had the influence to make that decision and you depended on your breathing to do that and also the respect you had and how much you wanted to work with Bretton, how much it meant that he chose you at one point to be his opponent and that Bret said that you felt like Steve had learned some things. , You know? of you outside of this match and the other at Survivor Series and you know that coming out of this match you are now in the turret to direct the trajectory of your career changes, Steve, you know it just skyrockets, what were the tools that you used?

I took away from Brett or this match and I always felt like you can't really, you don't really know what it takes to be tough unless you're working with the best and seeing the work that you have. to say what it takes, what was it that you took away from Brett or this game that helped you in that promotion, well, just the problem and the fact that we were able to know that there were two stars and that and that, right and that. game and two bigger stars came out of it and Brett was already established, we'll just go different paths, but I'm just left with the task or Brett, you and as is the case with many veterans I've had the opportunity to meet.

When I was in the business for three to six months working with guys like Danny Davis, Gary, great young guys who didn't have great opportunities, who were very, very good workers and had strong psychology, you know, one of the most important things that I got from Brett, you know? the composure of him, the thought process that he put into the matches, you know, at the chest level, our psychology was probably, it seems a little deeper than mine because we were two different characters and I think he was adifferent level of worker and you know, I wonder, one of the greats. dominates so just the thought process and I think we were both on the same page just from a reality standpoint, you know, and our characters totally clicked and it was like from the first match we had with archers in South Africa to Germany in all over the United States, you know Survivor Series and then, you know, WrestleMania 13 just released. a little bit, for some reason, I took away a lot of things, but just to stop the process and just to trust, I mean, at any time, no matter where we work, it's just that trust and that, uh, that's the feeling that you know that nothing is going to go wrong. because I trust you, you know you're going to the ring, guys, you know you've been a Roper campaign.

Hoosier is a good word when you say composure, I understand now he's a good word, man, so you always know nothing's going to happen. If it goes wrong, everyone's going to go get him and just, uh, I loved it, you know, I know you both, Brett has talked in the past about not really liking some of his promos, but he does like his promos and his feud with a lot of his promotions before this match. with me when Chef Brett when he shoved a veteran man's ass and said blush, where wasn't the damn word for that?

Everyone in that locker room knows that I am the best, I exist, the best was and the best will ever be. I'm big and I didn't know the promotion was going to happen. I don't think admission is a session, he's breathing heavily and losing his breath on the microphone, so I know what I love about Brett is the reality of his character, the psychology. of this matches the mechanics, you know the techniques in the ring, the whole presentation, when you look at Brett you know you are watching a professional, anyone can call themselves a professional wrestler, but it is a professional presentation which for me is really the way to higher art from a psychological presentation and point of view and that's what makes a great artist and an artist that attracts money, that's what I took away from Brett, well, I'm going to say this, I know them, we've already Held for an hour and a half, I know.

You have better things to do than travel with us, but I mean you know perfection is subjective, right, but in my opinion, watching this match is the perfect way to have a fight with two characters moving in a wrestling match. At the same time, what on paper seems like it will never work out, but in the end everyone comes out as a bigger star. It absolutely changed the direction of the business from that moment on, everything is different and I can't think of anything else. match that crystallizes that point more than this, so I guess in closing I just want to say that it was really amazing to come back to be able to watch this and then also sit down and analyze this because it's kind. something unheard of, so we really appreciate you both taking the time to do this because this is the kind of thing that I think gives people and, you know, fans and gives people within the industry power sit and listen. this is like a master class on how this should be done, whether it's coloring, whether it's a subtle neckbreaker illness, whether it's all of those things, I mean, man, this is really great and congratulations to both of you, there is a reason.

Jay and I, you two know, we're our fans and I'm glad we can both call your friends too. Hello men, on a final note. I know you guys are going to end this, but I want to leave this just like Brett said after this. In the game it didn't hurt me at all. I've been to a lot of games depending on you know what we did. They didn't store all active members for me. I bled a lot in that match and Vince is covered in the back. if there is an ugly match you don't just see this here, they are already apologizing to all the sponsors or whatever and then they show a photo of that mat of all my blood, they are like pieces of flesh and blood, it was, it was disgusting, it was wonderful because that was the violet story they just told us, so what I want to say is that it didn't hurt at all, it was fresh as a daisy, but I remember that it took me about a beer and a half and I was drunk off my ass.

I called ahead about you. I probably know again guys, thank you, this was great and thank you for taking the time that you know to do this with us because yeah, I think a lot of people are going to take away a lot from this, like I said, you know. I don't do a lot of

podcast

s and stuff for anyone anymore. I try not to do it. I end up hurting too many feelings. Sometimes the truth can be a bit. You know when you are when you call it like you see it. Well, I watched it, but I know

podcast

s can be a little problematic for me, and for Detective, we were going to do this today.

I could talk about this match, as you probably realize, all day. I talk about it a lot with people. You know I don't watch much wrestling here or you've never seen me. I mean, look at my match with Steve Austin at WrestleMania 13 and it's one of my proudest matches and I'm so glad we got the chance to talk about it. I'm glad it's an honor for me to be on the phone with Steve and just remember it and remember it, and the widget was active in a big period of my life and I know in that period of time I think I was actually on my Prime, I was in the best best wrestling moment of my life.

He was just in a super forum and it shows in that match, since he's a veteran or whatever, I just think that was the peak, even going back to the locker room after that. game and when I walk back to just to think you're braiding after giving the finger to that kid, you know, I always think that's how I want to be remembered, laying down the last 20 feet to where I'm walking, the look on my face and This the realism of that match was a great period my new when I came back to address it and I remember being greeted by the Undertaker and all the other members of the locker room telling me, you know, good luck getting through that.

They were amazed, everyone was like they had arrived there. I think they applauded us because we came back. I don't remember it, but I remember being very proud of the game and everyone was impressed when we came back. just to talk to all of you on this show that have the opportunity to reminisce it's an honor for me just you guys the questions you ask new beginnings it was a lot of fun and I appreciate you giving me the time to repeat and relive some of the memories well , again man, thanks guys, we'll let you guys go and know that you have things to do, but that was really fun, it's amazing, thank you so much for your time and you said it's a game for the ages.

I think that will show itself in any era and will always stand the test of time, so it's obviously something to be proud of for both of us and should be a rival for aspiring wrestlers to study for years to come, I think, but thanks from new. Much for your time, I really appreciate it guys, I'm closing the note. I booked a three hour slot, so if you want to talk for half an hour more or half an hour man, thank you all for having the podcast bro, it's always good to talk. To Brett, everyone, I just say there are too many boob smoke ads, but he knows I love them, but I loved working with him and he was very, very important in my career and I appreciate everything they did with me and they have so many.

Great memories of our times and that in the ring and in the African Germany of Auvergne, when I do everything I can to try to make him burst or make him laugh out loud and some of the ribs that we play with each other, that is a podcast for another day. but another big respect to the heart of brother, he really is one of the best of all time and this podcast reeks of awesomeness, so thanks for having me. Oh Steve, I really don't think it gets any better than that, no, I mean, my mind is melted.

After sitting in that conversation, I mean, thinking about it, right, I mean, that's it, like you and I watched that game together. I don't know how many times they will say that we are on the rise and that we are studying that. match and like slow motion putting it like, you know, frame by frame and seeing in slow motion different things why they did certain things backing up watching it over and over and over again and then you know how to become get into WWE and you travel with Steve and you know , you get to pick his brain when he was the best and then you know get to know Brett and become friends with him and be able to sit down to dinner with him and hang out and become friends. with these two guys now to come on this podcast after all that and sit here and just listen to them talk about this game, it's just surreal, you almost know, yeah, and you know as teammates, being able to sit down and More or less we have all the same points, oh, I think the four of us, after watching it, we all came away from the same things, no, no, like we were talking and, as you know, there's a lot of times you were asking a question, I said.

Did you want to ask that? But it's funny because you know we think a lot when it comes to certain things, so that's not surprising, but man, but again we're bringing up points that I thought, "Okay, I wanted to." Talking about that already mentioned it well, although it is true, because we are the same, we are like sitting there, flying on the wall, again to listen to these two guys, but what caught my attention the most. The most thing is the respect that these guys still have for each other and for each other, you know, and what each one meant to the other, and Steve, you know, basically, you know, like I said, possibly the biggest star in the history of saying that without Bret he wouldn't have gotten to where he was, that's pretty big, yeah, I mean, like we've talked about, Steve was going to get there, but that matchstick man changed direction quickly, you know if there's a graphic rises after that and you know, t-shirts are created from it, you know, and as we talked, you know, I'm not a big fan of color in the business, especially now and where we are in the knowl

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that we have. . in all of those things, except the man, who is an example of what it means so much and changing what matches, what it looks like, you know it's still a class, it shows you Bret's genius in making that right call, like knowing if You know how to risk what you know can get both of you in serious trouble, but for him and for him he's also trying to help Steve get to another level, and that's both guys working together and that and it just shows you the psychology. that no, this won't work unless this happens or it could work, but it won't get the same effect and he's essentially, you know, throwing something out there that will ultimately help Steve more than you know, you have to help him if you want.

Looking at it in the end, that way it will help you both, but then again, it's a pretty selfless call to go. Well, I'm also going to put my ass on the line and do this because he needs it for this to be good. for your character Steve, he needs it and how well Bret did it. I mean, you look at it again and yeah, it's fine, but if you didn't know about it and it hasn't been talked about, then it was done so perfectly and so well. that really, even after years in the business, you have to sit there and say hmm, okay, okay, it's just that there are so many aspects of this that it's a masterclass in character and less is more about how to profit from things They may seem small but they are. not a little because a nuance is that you know little to say these little things add up and I am super rigorous with the little things and like they were doing things even looking at them now they were driving me crazy, you know and I like you I talked about the reversal abroad when Steve tripped, yeah, it seemed so out of control and real and not pretty, and the whole match wasn't pretty and I mean in the best possible way, it seemed like two. guys who were trying to be the best and also wanted to fight each other, yeah, Greg and his friends like guys like in the schoolyard who were just doing it and everyone was standing around watching these two just fight, you know, that's the one the great analogy. about that and we didn't even talk about the fact that I think it was the first time he used the figure four on the ring post, yeah, no, I was thinking about that too, but you know, it went too far. but I'm not sure if he was or not, but that was a pretty integral part of the match when he was working on his leg, so yeah, yeah, yeah, and captain Lou and Tony Atlas in the front row, I totally get it. .

I forgot and I love it when they walk into the crowd, Captain Lou goes straight into over the top old man, like his seventies carnie mode. I want to call something. Steve six, he said he would only have a few moves. I think Vince must have known what. he thought about this, the submission match, Steve had a submission, he did the leg sweep like an octopus move that paid off and he also did the Boston Crab, yeah there's a couple of them at the beginning yeah, but stinky we talked about it though how cool and Terry and how OnPoint that comment was a three man booth and the three of them were hitting different points and covering all the points.

Vince saying you know Steve could beat Brett to submission was a great point to make the match you know. It also suited his character more than a guy who's going out, yeah, he threw a Boston crab, but those are, you know, and the other, whatever it was, the octopus he made, but staying true to his character, is more realistic.I'd beat up a guy enough or he's like, "Okay, I've had enough, yeah, I didn't and jr." you know you say you know you're not going to make Austin show up, you know, and eventually I'm foreshadowing where he went, but you wouldn't think you knew if you're watching everything is so well done on so many levels.

And again, a special thanks to those guys for taking the time to let us know that I'll sit down and listen to this conversation with two guys who have a lot of respect for each other and you know, they put on a clinic that night at WrestleMania 13, so again, Thanks Steve, thanks Brett, it really meant a lot that you guys did that so well for us and that's what you talked about, you know? How can you know the respect they still have for each other? One of the things that is built through a match like that or something that stands the test of time like that is almost brotherhood or brotherhood or that you have shared something that has.

It stood the test of time and I think it's, you know, a music producer and a band, or you picked the analogy, you picked the comparison and I think we have the same thing with the Dudleys and the Hardys and you know you have it with Randy and I. Having it with you, you know, John or Taker, it's just one of those things that when you're able to create something that people you know still talk about, then there's that instant Brotherhood and you just pick up where you left off, it was really cool to hear that. with those two, you know them arguably and inarguably, actually both of them, you know two of the greatest to ever put on a pair of boots and yeah, it was like you said fun being a fly on the wall for that and it you know from that moment.

I'm really starting to think about getting to Deborah with us and when that match happened and fast forward all these years later and like you said, being able to sit down and talk to them about it as teammates is really amazing, yeah, yeah, well. Once again, you know, we thank those guys and all the hosers for sticking around and listening to us for a year, so yeah, this was a good way to cover up the year that was in the ENC boat was a disaster, bro. Yes, yes, but seriously, that's how it was. I think over the year people have started to get on board and realize what this is all about and now we're just two fools having fun and if that's your bag then you're in.

I'm going to enjoy this so thanks for listening and you're just two guys trying to get these brands and buy our t-shirts in progress. I thought this is how they won an ending, there is no anniversary. Matt is going to edit that. He was joking. I'm just trying to pop you guys yeah anyway thanks it's been a slice and I hope you enjoyed this one because it was very special in our playbooks so we'll see where we go from here without further ado yeah. there is a long there is a long pain it was worth it it was worth it I think it was worth it hoses okay