Meet The Press Broadcast (Full) - April 5th, 2020 | Meet The Press | NBC News

This Sunday, why weren't we prepared? This is going to get worse before it gets better, for sure, the government's sobering projection on the coronavirus, hundreds of thousands of Americans dead at best, this would probably be the toughest week between this week and next. Death cases are rising faster in the US as guidelines are ignored. I can tell by the curves, and since not all Americans are following them these days, there should be a national stay-at-home order. I don't understand why that's not happening. overwhelmed healthcare workers this is too much and states are competing with each other for scarce equipment it's just a madhouse out there it's like being on eBay with 50 other states bidding on a ventilator my guest this morning Surgeon General Jerome Adams governors jay Inslee of Washington and ASA Hutchinson of Arkansas, Prime Minister Giuseppe Conte of Italy, and author Michael Lewis, plus the next crisis, what happens when Kovin 19 hits rural hospitals lacking medical beds and ventilators, and finally, scenes like this, the moments of love , selflessness and heroism that keep our spirits high.

Facing a once-in-a-century challenge, I'm joined for insight and analysis by NBC News Capitol Hill correspondent Casey Hunt, former Republican North Carolina Gov. Pat McCrory, and NBC News correspondent Helene Cooper. Pentagon for The New York Times. Welcome to Sunday and a special edition of NBC News' Meet the Press in Washington, the longest-running show in television history, this is a special edition of Meet the Press with Chuck Todd. Good Sunday morning, the week began with two national reckonings on the coronavirus, the first being where we are. With more than 300,000 confirmed cases in the United States this morning and more than eight thousand deaths, the federal government now recognizes that, at best, between 100,000 and 240,000 Americans are likely to die from this virus.

As a point of comparison, there are more Americans than died fighting in Korea and Vietnam combined, as you can see, the United States, which is the raised red line on this graph, is lagging behind the world in flattening the pandemic curve, perhaps the most critical objective of all, which brings us to the second, considering the performance of the government, such as President Trump, who insisted for weeks that the corona virus was no worse than the flu, such as the lack of testing, the most importantly, starting with the CDC's botched testing kits, such as the government's inadequate stockpile of ventilator gowns and other personal protective equipment. like the mixed messages on face masks, the CDC recommends them, the president refuses to wear one, like the dissolution of the National Security Council pandemic team in 2018, there are many more, including one, we are all responsible for not following the safety guidelines, remember those sobering deaths the toll numbers only hold up if everyone practices social distancing and as we learned last week, that's not happening everywhere, but the bottom line is the government has been telling us that it has had control of the virus when in reality it is the virus that has been in control over us in New York and across the country we are a small rural hospital we do not have ventilators medical providers first responders and state officials are pleading with the federal government for more help every states are saying the same thing I need help I need help but this week, the Trump administration repeatedly sent the governor the message don't look at us first the notion of the federal reserve was supposed to be our reserve these are not supposed to be state reserves that you will then use on Friday The HHS website describing the national stockpile had been revised from saying it had enough applications to respond to multiple large-scale emergencies simultaneously to reading that its role is to supplement state and local supplies as a short-term buffer.

I don't know if Jared Kushner knows this, but it's called the United States. The states of America and the federal government, which has reserves, are supposed to be holding the states back. Nine governors still refuse to enact stay-at-home orders and mr. Trump refuses to order them to do so despite recommendations from his own public health officials. I just don't understand why we're not doing that. We really shouldn't be like this. Government advice changed over time. Americans were told not to wear masks. With the CDC now recommending that people wear non-surgical masks or face coverings in public on Friday, the president immediately made it clear that he will not follow that guidance.

You can do it. You do not have to do it. I choose not to. In fact, 21 percent of deaths and nearly half of patients admitted to the ICU were Americans under age 65, according to early data from the CDC. Americans were told testing was widely available so anyone who needs a desk gets a set of tests are there even now only 1.6 million tests have been conducted nationwide, a fraction of what experts They say it is necessary, in fact, for months the president minimized the virus by distorting the facts, it is a person who comes from China and we have it under control, it seems that by April, you know, in theory, when it is a little warmer , miraculously disappears this week.

He reversed course on optimistic projections of him acknowledging the U.S. death toll could be staggering by attempting to claim 100,000. Depending on the model, it is a very low number in the program. Hundreds of thousands of people go today. You know what I want to do. I want to be far below the model that the professionals made. I was never involved in a model, but this type of model and I am now joined by the Surgeon General of the United States, his Vice Admiral Jerome Adams. Admiral Adams, welcome to

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and let me begin by saying that you, the Surgeon General, give us your recommendation on Well, it is important for the United States to understand that originally the CDC and the World Health Organization in my office recommended that the public not to wear face masks because the best evidence available at the time suggested that they had no impact on preventing the spread of a disease if you were the individual and you were healthy, we always recommended that if people had symptoms, they wear a face mask to avoid transmitting diseases to other people.

This is what has changed. We now know that about 25% in some studies transmit even more Covin 19. when symptomatic or pre-symptomatic, so the CDC now recommends that people wear cloth face coverings when they are going to be in public and cannot be more than 6 feet away from each other, but here are the important points very quickly number one, you want to make sure that you don't replace social distancing with face masks because the most important thing is to stay away from people, make sure that if you put on a face mask you don't touch your face and you don't and you wash your hands before you use it and number three says the medical mask for healthcare workers excuse me, they need them, they absolutely need them to be able to respond.

I have a video where I made a fabric. mask made of teeth, yes, and rubber bands, anyone can do this, we must all do our part to overcome this. I'm curious. I know you made the warning that you're saying that you specifically don't want people to do. a run with clinical or surgical masks two questions I have on that front, number one, if you are caring for someone in the vulnerable age group, should that person be wearing a clinic with a surgical mask and secondly, if there were enough across the country, would that be the recommendation and is the only reason we say make homemade masks is because we just don't have enough masks.

The reason we say to make a homemade one is because it is effective in protecting you from me. Remember I'm using one. mask to protect yourself Chuck and you are wearing a mask to protect me that's what you need we want to make sure that we are saving the medical mask for healthcare workers and we would still recommend that people wear it and in 95 vein even if we had enough when I'm in the hospital, I have to have a special fit test to wear them at 95, they are uncomfortable and you can touch your face frequently if you are caring for a loved one who is elderly or has very significant medical conditions, wash your hands frequently goes to great lengths to avoid transmitting diseases to them and would recommend people consider wearing a cloth face covering when they are within six feet of that person so that your droplets do not go to them and you are not potentially spreading diseases, the president made it quite clear that he will not use one.

Would you recommend people wear one at work? That's it, so here's what you need to know if you go to the CDC website, it says number one, this is voluntary, we're asking people to think about doing this to protect your neighbors in your family, but number two , it is not a substitute for social distancing, if you are at work and you are within 6 feet of someone, there is a minimal chance that you will spread a disease if you are in a work environment where you are less than six feet and you're very close to someone, that's definitely something to consider and, again, that's what the CDC guidelines actually say they are.

Based on science, we always try to develop our recommendations based on the best science available. Admiral. I know you don't hesitate to stay in the background. Driving other officials and the calls that they have to make and I'm very aware of that, but I'm curious, if you were advising the nine governors who haven't issued stay-at-home orders, what would you advise them to do right? I would have advised them to follow our 30-day guidelines to slow the spread. I ran a state health department. I've talked to a lot of these governors and this is what I tell them this is what I would tell them right now next week will be our moment Pearl Harbor will be our moment 9/11 will be the The most difficult moment for many Americans in their entire lives and we really need to understand that if we want to flatten that curve and get to the other side, everyone needs to do their part. 90% of Americans are doing their part even in the states where they haven't had a shelter but if you can't give us 32 governors, give us a week, give us what you can so we don't overwhelm our health systems for the next week and then we will reevaluate at that point we want everyone to add a minute.

I'm going to be Rosie the Riveter, you have to do your part Adam, it sounds like at the very least you'd like all governors to

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for at least a week. I wish all governors would encourage. for people in their states to follow these guidelines for 30 days, that's what I want, but I want them to do what they can within their states. We know that from a public health perspective and I ran a public health department, whether it was about smoking or opioids. all kinds of different rules and regulations in different states, now remember last week which was forever ago in corona times, governor cuomo actually said it would be declaring war on the states honestly by issuing a federal quarantine .

Governors rightly protect their capacity. To determine what is best for its citizens, we want them to have the science to make the best recommendations. I want to put a quote from Amy Acton, she is the director of public health in Ohio, she said this on March 13 and admiral has been disturbing. me since then and she this is what she said at the beginning of a pandemic you look a bit like an alarmist you look a bit like a Chicken Little the sky is falling and on the back of a pandemic you didn't do it Do enough are those words we should all live by and you may be having doubts right now.

If you are a leader in the health versus economics debate, in retrospect you will wish she had worked more than 20 years in public health and I know that. director Acton those words couldn't be truer, we always tell people that we would rather prevent diseases than treat them. I tell people that we are not going to try or provide a way out of this problem. There is no magic formula or magic, it sure is good. old-fashioned public health and prevention, all coming together, practicing good hygiene, staying home, doing the things we've always told people to do to prevent the spread of infectious diseases, when are we going to have a website like the one that was announced a couple of weeks ago, where we can get a test where we can find out about these antibodies because it seems clear that we will never

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y reopen this economy until we are able to detect this virus by GPS, where are we on testing, sir? ? 1.6 million tests and you mentioned that's about a "At 200 Americans, that's where South Korea was with their initial search for testing, we're seeing an increase in testing, particularly with the Abbott rapid tests and we know that there is never enough evidence enoughquick, but I'm confident that within the next two to four weeks." We will be where we want to be to be able to do adequate surveillance and understand where the disease is, where it is high and low and where and have appropriate public health recommendations, but it looks like we want to make sure what the reopening is We're seeing cases go down for a week or two in places where we want to make sure we have testing, but we want to make sure we have good public health infrastructure so that when let's identify a positive test, people can have it. follow-up isolate follow-up of their case contacts and make sure that a single case does not turn into ten hundred thousand cases.

Do you think that by the end of April we will be in a testing situation in the. What are we actually doing? surveillance instead of just trying to catch up, we are doing surveillance in many places, Montana, for example, actually has a higher testing rate than the average for the rest of the country, so we are doing surveillance. in many places, we are going to be doing antibody testing that will give us more information and I spoke with Admiral Joe Wah, who is the head of the testing task force, he said he believes that within a month we will have antibody testing more widely available again .

One hundred thousand tests are performed per day. Fifty thousand Abbot tests will be online. Testing in the United States is becoming more available, but not yet. It doesn't replace the fact that we want everyone to act like they're 19 kovat right now and protect their neighbors protect their loved ones very quickly. Admiral the president mulled a one-day reprieve for Easter Sunday. I understand that from you I know that a hopeful scenario would be a public health mistake. The president always hopes to have aspirations and we are trying to give people science. Science says that right now, this Palm Sunday and I am Catholic, normally I would be getting ready to go to church.

Right now we need you to stay home, this will be a difficult week, it will test our resolve, it will be the hardest week of our lives, but I am confident, based on the numbers in Washington, California, Italy and Spain we can get through this, we'll get through it. I know the American people will do the right thing and stay home. Surgeon General Jerome Adams. Thank you so much. Stay healthy. Stay clean. I hope people watch your video on how to make a mess, thanks for coming and watching, stay home if you go out, wear one of these.

Thank you, Chuck, okay, thank you sir, and now joining me are two governors who have taken very different actions in the face of the corona virus pandemic, it's governor jay. Inslee from Washington state is the first state that was hit hard and it's ASA Hutchinson from Arkansas, one of the few governors who is not authorized to stay home, gentlemen, welcome back to

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for both of you, Governor Hutchinson . I want to start with you. You heard the Surgeon General there, he is begging to be given a week which he would prefer during the 30 days of this month.

His response to the Surgeon General. Excellent comments from the Surgeon General in Arkansas. We are doing everything that a General Surgeon has to do. described and more, for example, I applaud the recommendations on masks, yesterday we issued guidelines that if you maintain social distancing first, but bring a mask in case you go into environments where you can't have that six foot distance in Arkansas, we have a goal. approach that is very strict we have closed bars restaurants schools some of our shelters in the park we are emphasizing social distancing and will do more as necessary but let me give you an example of why masks are so important and the way we have been successful in Arkansas and it's comparable to other states, in fact, we've outpaced and slowed the spread more than some states that have actually had a stay at home order, but you have a stay at home order tomorrow. 600,000 are Kansans who will continue to go to work. so the message is more important to do your social distancing, do not gather in groups of more than 10 people and bring a mask.

I'm going to follow those instructions if I can't social distance, I want to have a mask. Tonight we had a breakout at one of our federal prisons here in Arkansas that has ten inmates who tested positive and four guards. It's a federal facility, but staying home doesn't help. We must have mass in our state. the prison is producing mass that we could use in our state prison environment those are some of the things we are doing we will do more as we need to listen to our public health officials okay Governor Inslee all week long dr .

Burks basically uses Washington and California as examples of trying to show the country. Look, this can work, this social distancing can work, it's difficult, but look what happened in Washington in California. I know you've said you're not out of the woods, but do you think you've begun to flatten this curve? Yes, the evidence of dr. It is repeatedly pointed out to Burks that it shows that we have had some success in flattening the curve that has taken place because we acted relatively early, we had a scenic way of moving forward, it was enough where one of the most aggressive stayed home, stayed healthy and the problems in the United States.

United States and I think this has reason to believe that it has been a demonstrable success and I'm glad that we addressed it relatively early while the president was saying that this was not a problem, I mean, it was a hoax that we were acting to save the lives of To our citizens in several states, including California in Washington State, it is a pleasure to know that if they act aggressively and realize that although they may look good today, it can greatly affect them tomorrow. I think that's one of the wisdoms. It would be nice to have a national state in internal order and the reason is that even if Washington takes care of this completely, if another state doesn't, it can come back and cross our borders within two months, so this is important. have a national success, but I want to reiterate that we are very far from being out of the woods, yes, we are nowhere near where we need to be to declare victory over this horrendous virus, what does Governor Inslee want?

To start with you on this first, have you started the conversation about what metrics you're going to look at to start lifting some of these shelter-in-place orders? Yes, but they are just to start thinking about this because we have been very determined. "To make sure that this is a successful stay-at-home order and so far it has been, we have had great compliance in our state. Washingtonians are answering the call and we are very happy with that, but yes, we are looking at the metrics, fortunately." We are very fortunate here in Washington, we have the laboratories at the University of Washington, some of the best in the world, and they give us the metrics we need.

We look at them daily or hourly and will analyze them in a combination. There is none. number there are a lot of numbers that will be analyzed to see when we can get out of this. I extended it by a month just two days ago until May 4th, so we are in our very vigorous one of the strongest, probably the strongest in the nation. to get to fourth place right now, but we have more work to do, Governor Hutchinson, was the CEO of the University of Arkansas Medical Center for Medical Sciences, said the state lost an order for 500 ventilators, essentially another state Outbid, should I? being in that situation if you are forced to bid against it is this is this is something that the federal government needs to step in and handle well is difficult and we have had circumstances where we are trying to collect our PPE, our protective masks and that another state We were outbid after we received order confirmation, so yes, that has been a challenge for us, but we recognize that the federal government has said that we are your backup, you have to go out and compete, and it is literally a jungle global in which we are competing this is how it should be, this is how I mean, I know ideologically and philosophically the federal where many people believe in federalism, but at a time like this it should be like this.

Competing states know there needs to be a better way, but that's the reality we're in. We invested $75 million to make our acquisitions and we will work on this. The federal government has made it clear that they are the backup and If we need more ventilators right now, they will go to the hot spots in New York, California, but they have assured me that when we get to the point, if we need ventilators and Arkansas, they will be there. We're not waiting for us to go to market, we're trying to buy ventilators, you know if I should or not, that's where we are right now, although let me come back if I can and I want to congratulate Governor Inslee.

I think we're seeing his success in some of the things he's done there, but I would point out that even with the stay-at-home order, which is one of the strictest, as he points out, in Washington state you can still go to buy your marijuana and that's why it's important that we add to that social distancing and the masks that we're advocating for if you can't socially distance and that's why each state, whether we're procuring or determining what's best in our state to close the gap that we have to be able to have some flexibility in making those decisions and that's what we're seeing, we're learning from each other, very quickly Governor Hutchison.

I want to give Governor Inslee a chance to respond to that, but Governor Hutchison Anthony is missing. she has basically begged for a national stay-at-home order. Does his, her basically begging for this, have an impact on you changing your mind about this? He's just looking at the nation as a whole and as a Surgeon General said this week, it's critical and we're doing everything their guidelines say, they mentioned the mass, we're leaning even more in that direction, so we're all working together on this, but when you look at our state, I think having a fancy doctor, Falchi, would be very pleased with the fact that we are outperforming some of our other states in reducing the spread and the commitment that we have.

You have to work every day to achieve it. Very well, and Governor Inslee, very quickly, the federal government's relationship is improving week by week. Well, look, we've had good communications with the vice president and with the CDC, they've been good, but it's ridiculous that we don't have a national effort on this to say they were supportive. I mean, the Surgeon General alluded to Pearl Harbor. Can you imagine if Franklin Delano Roosevelt said I would be behind you? Connecticut, good luck building those paddle boats. Look, we need a national mobilization of the United States manufacturing base, as we started on December 8, 1941, we need to mobilize nationally using the defense acquisition or production act so that we can get these companies instead of making coasters start to make visors start to make test kits, we don't have enough test kits in my state or anywhere else in the United States, so Republican and Democratic governors have been urging the president to do what he must, i.e. , if you want to be a wartime president be a wartime president show some leadership mobilize the industrial base of the United States that's what we need Governor Jay Inslee Democrat of Washington says Governor ASA Hutchinson Republican of Arkansas thanks to both for coming to share your views, it's going to be a long fight here, good luck to the two of you on the front lines when we get back.

Italy was the first European country severely affected by the coronavirus. I'm going to talk to Italy. Prime Minister on what America can expect to see in the coming weeks and as we go to our morning break, we'll try to show you some uplifting scenes starting with the firefighters applauding the work, welcome back. Vice President Mike Pence said it last week. we have become the next Italy, the first European country devastated by the coronavirus on March 4. Italy closed its schools and universities on March 8. Most of northern Italy was closed and a day later the lockdown was extended to the entire country.

It hasn't been done here yet, has it worked since the number of new cases peaked on March 21? Italy has seen a steady but nonetheless declining decline in new cases, so what can we in the United States learn from Italy's experience? I am joined now by the Prime Minister of Italy, Giuseppe a. please contact mr. Prime Minister welcome to meet with him and let me start by asking you how you, your citizens and your own loved ones are handling all of this. This has been a very difficult time. I know he just lost a bodyguard to this deadly virus, unfortunately for Sure it was aTerrible

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, but let me say one thing first: we are suffering much more than the 15,000 Italian lives lost for their loved ones, for our society and for our nation, it is a devastating pain and in fact in these difficult times I can openly say that US President Trump wants to show that Italy is a true and loyal friend.

I want to thank President Trump for immediately making us feel supportive of his presence and I am very grateful to the American people for what is known today as the Italian model. I can say, firstly, that since the beginning of the pandemic Italy has prioritized public health and for this reason we have adopted the very strict measures that you mention and, adjusting them to the evolution of the infection, secondly, they must base political decisions. on scientific evidence third third it is crucial to implement decisions with complete transparency our liberal democracy is based on the contact we have with our own people and we pass them through transparency in the same way that we had to provide them security and protection this Do you believe What is the Italian model, taking into account what we have seen and it seems that it has flattened the curve?

Do you think you have flattened the curve because of these tough measures you have taken or do your scientific experts believe that the viruses could be running their course right now. I cannot say when the lockdown will end because we are following the suggestions of our scientists in the scientific and technical committee, but it must be admitted that Italy has been the first country in Europe that Of course, in the face of this pandemic, our response has not been perfect. maybe, but we have been active as best we know how today. I see that our model is implemented by the countries and its validity as we know it from the WHO and the results so far indicate that We are on the right track, therefore the most important message we must give to our citizens is to stay home As much as possible, don't go, don't go out and if you have to live at home, for example to go to work or buy food, always respect the safety rules.

We are asking our people for a great sacrifice, I know, but it is the only way to defeat the pandemic all together the more we respect the rules, the sooner we will get out, it seems that there was a story in The New York Times today that if with the tests you wait in your country that to reopen parts of the economy and reopen parts of the country that yes You can be fine, if you have antibodies against the virus you can work and if you don't have to stay at home, do you think that is the future of Italy?

We will work to the death, but at the moment we are all in the same battle, we are fighting the same thing, a powerful and invisible enemy, every country in the world is affected and we are all on the front line, or if an outpost remove the virus, we will spread it again and our efforts as a sacrifice would be in vain for this reason the cohesion and cooperation of our democracies and their strategic international collaboration is crucial and it is also strategic that all conflicts around the world must strongly stop Italy, port of soup that appeals made by the Secretary General of the United Nations for global peace. society, it is time for all parties in conflict to stop fighting each other and unite against an enemy who wants to make a difference and we kill them all, sir.

Prime Minister, I know that the next few Sundays in particular will be very difficult to think about these empty churches on Palm Sunday and on Easter, it will be very difficult my condolences to you again and keep fighting, keep going and keep crushing that. curve thank you for coming, thank you very much if I can say that I am very proud to serve my incredible and unique country, thank you very much, mr. Prime Minister, when we return, why was the government not prepared for this pandemic? The panel will be next, and as we move forward, we'll interrupt the meeting between my fellow NBC News correspondent Janice Mackey Fair and her six-year-old son in China after they've been separated. for seven weeks, welcome back, the panel joins us from their remote locations, we are practicing our social distancing and BC News Capitol correspondent, KC, hunts down former North Carolina Republican Governor Pat McCrory and Helen Cooper, Pentagon correspondent for the New York Times, okay, I think. we can better summarize the argument or debate this particular morning, who is in charge and KC Hunt.

I want to play the president on the massive CDC guidelines because, in many ways, the mixed messages he sent here sum this up. kind of a back and forth between the feds and the state listen, the CDC recommends the use of non-medical cloth face coverings as an additional voluntary public health measure, so it's voluntary, you have to do it. I don't think I'm going to do it, I think I'm going to wear a mask while greeting presidents, prime ministers, dictators, kings, queens. I don't know, somehow, I don't see it myself. It's worth noting, by the way, that the Italian Prime Minister before starting the interview before sitting down, he was actually wearing a mask where all his assistants were wearing masks, we thought that was interesting, but Casey Hunt, this seems to be a push and pull. loosen up here, the governor wants the feds to take more control and the president.

He definitely doesn't want to do that and even ASA Hutchinson in his conversation there resisted that statewide stay at home order as you pointed out, but he also said in that interview that he was going to wear a mask and model the Surgeon's guidelines. The general just a minute earlier put on a mask on camera, clearly our public health officials believe that this is a message that they want to send to people in the strongest terms possible and of course this is an evolution that initially everyone told us what it was. It's not necessary unless you're sick, but at this point you know what the president says, Chuck, we're seeing it in whatever polls are being done, we're seeing it, we're seeing it in how people respond.

More people are listening to what this president has to say something yet in his presidency because we are all tuned in to trying to figure out how to get through this together and so if he wants Americans to wear masks, he needs to say it very directly and we all know especially those of us who are trying to raise children you have to model the behavior yourself to convince others to follow it, that's for sure, Pat McCrory as a former governor as a former mayor. I know you sympathize with someone above your Paygrade trying to tell you how to run your state or your city.

I get it, but when is the point as governor where you really want the feds to be in charge? Well, one thing is I've been in the fog of war during hurricanes and tornadoes and winter storms where life and death decisions are being made while balancing the economy and also balancing the territory not only between the federal government and the state government, but, I think, every state is looked at, there is territory between the county health directors and the governor and because you get close to the people and the elected officials are close to the people, there can be different opinions and in the fog of war you have mixed data, you have mixed communication and you have evolving opinions based on that new data and that is exactly what happy day is.

The only thing I don't like that is happening is the blame game. You know, the governor of Washington mentioned Pearl Harbor. Well, I think after Pearl Harbor happened, the worst thing a governor could do is blame Franklin Roosevelt for Pearl Harbor. What you have to do is leave. What should we do now and be specific? We all live in our lanes of responsibility and some of those lanes overlap and are gray areas. This is not unusual in a fog of war. I'm just curious, so governor. I'll follow up. I am obsessed. I put that quote in for the Surgeon General, Ohio's public health officer, Amy Act, and are you surprised that more politicians aren't erring on the side of caution here because there seems to be a yes?

If you're wrong about this guy, it's a bad way to be wrong if you're wrong and you've been too alarmist, well, no one else has died, but if you're wrong and you've downplayed it, boy. I have a lot to answer for. I had a theme during our crisis and the hurricanes: being over prepared and hope

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y disappointed and I think that should be the goal of every leader, but there is a tremendous balance that we all have and one What happens even with the politics of staying at home, you could say that it almost discriminates against the manual worker who watches us do our work from afar.

The blue-collar worker cannot stay home to keep manufacturing lines open. textiles, rubber and fabrics that we need in our hospitals right now, the delivery trucks, the grocery stores, the worker will wait a minute, I can't stay home, Helene Cooper, there has been a lot of talk about the president. It should come to a point, you know, Oh, to substitute, maybe it's a member of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, some general, maybe you know someone with Jim Mattis' status, someone like that to basically become the acquisition czar here. , there has been a lot of that. and as you know, the Pentagon, the reason people say do this to the point of general is because the Pentagon specializes in planning, that's what they do all the time and in a war situation it's been fascinating. , although Chuck sees the American government. response to this and how much it seems like we're 10 days to two weeks behind on this virus with everything we're doing, the fact that the White House administration is finally coming and saying we should be wearing face masks is something that a lot of officials health officials say it should have happened a month ago and the fact that it still doesn't have the president on board I think is enormously significant.

I'm not sure what kings and queens he thinks are coming to the White House and should worry about greeting him with a mask, but the thought of President Trump talking about his appearance makes it a bad look for him to do so. see with a mask at a time when there are thousands and thousands of Americans dying and therefore it seems that the number is about to increase shockingly. I think he says a lot about leadership in times of crisis very quickly. Casey Hunt. I realized we have 6.6 unemployment claims right now. week and it seems like that number made Nancy Pelosi and Mitch McConnell suddenly say oh, we should agree on the next round of spending that's coming soon, right?

Nancy Pelosi earlier this week, Chuck was ready to start talking about infrastructure projects, jobs bills essentially. In the next phase of this, it just took him 24 to 36 hours to suddenly turn around and say, you know what? We're actually still in the emergency relief phase of this and I think you'll see Congress try to act as quickly as possible. in that sense, yes, and it will almost be like refilling the coffers of what was promised with the first round, that we are still trying to get those small business loans, unemployment throughout the week, you will see a lot of technical problems.

On that front, I hope people are patient. I have to leave it there. Thank you all for author Michael Lewis' upcoming abbreviated panel on finding some creative ways to fight the pandemic, but first the scene at Jefferson Hospital in Philadelphia, where health care workers had a message for all of us and tried to do it with a smile, welcome back, data download times so far coronavirus hotspots have primarily been urban areas like New York City, where there is already a shortage of ICU beds, but access to Those beds become even more limited as the pandemic spreads inland to more rural areas with older populations.

Let's take New York City as a baseline; It is home to numerous top-level hospitals, but there are still more than a thousand people over 60 years of age for every ICU bed in the world. The rest of the country would seem to do a little better with one ICU bed for more than 900 people. Good

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. Maybe, but that's where the good news ends. Check this. Only 47 percent of all U.S. counties have any ICU beds, and only 29 percent of us do. counties have 10 or more, there are 536 counties in the United States where 30 percent of the population in those counties is over 60 years old and of those only 23 percent have ICU beds, you see where this is going in the counties we call aging farmland the most remote counties in the country the numbers are even more dire there are one hundred and sixty one of those comments remote counties in the 161 counties there are only six ICU beds in total so far we don't know how Koba spreads 19 in very rural settings where large spaces make social distancing easier or a way of life in some cases, but while most eyes have recently been focused on New York City, the virus has been spreading outside of that metropolitan area; two weeks ago there were fewer than 800 counties. with a confirmed case of the virusthis week there were 2,300 counties with at least one case when we come back, are there ways to combat the corona virus that we're not already thinking about?

Author Michael Lewis joins us next Welcome Michael Lewis has spent a career chronicling people who find creative ways to identify and solve problems in his latest book, The Fifth Risk. Lewis essentially describes what happened when, in his opinion, the Trump administration oversimplified the government to function properly, so the Trump administration was set up to make all the decisions. This during this current crisis Michael Louis joins me now social distancing from Berkeley, California Mr. Lewis welcome to meet the press it's been a long time a first as far as I'm concerned so I'm glad to have you well to see you, Chuck, let me start with the premise of your book, where you were analyzing the transition and I.

I say and I want to connect some dots here. I'm going to put a screenshot here of all the people who have been in charge of the Department of Homeland Security in the Trump administration, five different people who have been confirmed by the Senate, three interims, including the situation here, it feels like knew that DHS was not part of your book, but that amount is that the definition of the fifth risk here, sometimes, personal, you know the book, the starting point of the book is if you really have to think. about the federal government as a manager of a portfolio of risks, and a lot of them are catastrophic and you don't know what you're going to have to deal with, but you know there are people there who were dealing with it and when it came to my attention and the reason why The one I wrote the book about was that we had this process to hand over the government and it was actually the statute that the Obama administration had to spend a lot of time preparing to hand over the government.

The government went to whoever was successful, and Obama was very serious because he realized that Bush had handed the government over to him so well that he thought that and Trump, for his part, had built this company of five hundred people with a role in the Department. of Homeland Security and the Department of Agriculture or any rights and fired him the day after the election, so the transition never happened, so it was like that, that's the beginning of this whole story, it's the beginning of our response to the pandemic, is that the knowledge of how it was handled, I don't know, to say that an Ebola outbreak was never transferred to the Trump administration and it's, uh, I think if you're going to know, when people look back and tell the story of this crisis, they will start there, there is no doubt that they will see each other.

I want to spin a little. You just did a podcast and noted that we will learn a lot about our society during this pandemic that will likely surface problems we didn't know we needed to solve. What are some that you're seeing right now that you think we should keep an eye on? Are you talking about similar risks that we should be terrified of? You know, yeah, look at this on Somehow it wasn't the fifth risk in my mind was the risk that you weren't really, that you weren't really, it wasn't the most important thing and I got the idea because I came into the Department. of Energy and and I got the chief risk officer's report that the Trump administration hadn't bothered to get and I asked him what are the top five things that Justin worries about in the energy department and he said, look, there are a lot of really smart people . dealing with things like stopping a nuclear weapon from going off when it shouldn't go off, stopping the power grid from going down or being attacked, three North Korea getting a weapon that they actually delivered to the west coast, I mean, it was like one thing after another and steps were being taken to prevent these bad things from happening now, now the question is in an administration that is run by a person who is largely indifferent to it, to what extent is this risk portfolio?

I know it's more likely to happen and what worried me and what interested me in writing the book in the first place was that if something really happens, I don't know what it is, I understand what's going to happen. but when it happens, they will not be prepared to deal with it and now we know what happened so now we are in the land of second best solutions because we had someone who neglected the instrument, the tool for Dealing with a crisis Look, we are going to end up having something that will change in our society based on this.

One of the things I've wondered about is that we are learning who is essential. We are discovering the truck. Drivers are much more essential than some of us, the person lurking on the shelves is much more essential. an appreciation from the federal government of what it does, its basic job is to keep us safe and if that's the case, if we don't pay attention to how it's handled, we're going to find ourselves in this situation again so I think I think. That's the great movie. I think that's the most important thing, Michael Lewis comes out well.

I have to leave it there. I will always wish to have more time with you and will find a way to spend more time with you in the future. Thank you and thank you. to everyone who has been watching today, please continue to practice that social distancing doing everything you can to keep your family and neighbors safe, the sooner we do that the sooner we will get through this, we will be back next week because if so Sunday, more Americans watch NBC News more than any other news organization in the world.