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"THIS IS Why Most People Are LAZY & UNMOTIVATED IN LIFE!" | Jordan Peterson & Lewis Howe

Jun 05, 2021
If I saw that something was difficult I wanted to master it and I pushed myself to do it just to see how far I could go in these multiple directions and that left me vulnerable to one thing when there are no elephants under the rug and everyone is playing if you ever have that, You should consider yourself, I think you have to have a dream, the school of greatness, yes please, welcome powers, is there anything you have? Any skills you wish you had developed in your 20s that you didn't develop before? Maybe yes, maybe you have them. now I've really thought about it, I've really thought about it recently what would be those few skills that you wish you had developed and you wish everyone developed well when my health fell apart and I was in the hospital for or several hospitals for long periods of time, you know , I stopped doing everything I was doing and everything I was doing was difficult my clinical practice was difficult the teaching job was difficult the company I ran was difficult uh writing was difficult uh, um podcasting and interviews was difficult yeah, the conference It was difficult, everything was difficult and I'm not complaining about the difficulty, I actually loved it, that was good, I'm not complaining about that at all, but since it was difficult, I have to be really good. fit to do it and then I wasn't in very good shape and because I wasn't in very good shape and everything I had done was difficult, I didn't know what to do and I couldn't get back to the top. things because it was like trying to get in a car going 200 miles an hour, you know, it's like that, well, what I did, what I started doing in December, was really when I started working again, although I had been writing to a certain extent. point during the last two. years, um, I started doing podcasts like

this

and they're not easy, yeah, you have to be again, I'm not complaining, I love doing them, they're really interesting, but you have to be engaging, you have to be smart and you have to not say nothing stupid and you can't be too emotional and you can't be angry and um or that has to be very controlled and you have to pay attention and concentrate and you have to align

people

and it's technically difficult, you have to announce it you have to have social media correct you have to monitor social media you have to be aware of current events and you have to see who you are going to talk to and it's complicated and I have

people

helping me and they I'm helpful and great, but there was no good, I'm going five, no There's beginner, I have a YouTube channel that a million people watch and it's something that you can really ruin publicly and catastrophically, yeah, it was very discouraging, yeah, very what I.
this is why most people are lazy unmotivated in life jordan peterson lewis howe
What I should have done when I was in my 20s and 30s is that I should have cultivated some activities that were less demanding. Look, I went to a baseball game when I lived in Boston. It was the only baseball game I think I ever attended. No. I probably went to two or three, but it was my first time going to a baseball game, a professional baseball game, I thought, Jesus, baseball, who would go see that? So fucking slow it's like nothing is happening. Is slow. It's so slow. No problem. and I have 50 other things I should do and I went there and then I realized I was looking at all these people and I thought they're not even paying attention to the baseball game, they're like talking to their friends. and they're drinking beer and eating popcorn and then I thought, yeah, that's the point, dummy, that's the point, they go there for that, like you can talk to your friends once in a while, someone hits a baseball and you can look.
this is why most people are lazy unmotivated in life jordan peterson lewis howe

More Interesting Facts About,

this is why most people are lazy unmotivated in life jordan peterson lewis howe...

Also, that's kind of interesting and you can eat popcorn and it's like they're relaxing, not, you know, climbing Mount Everest, they're just relaxing and you know, one of the things I've learned, it's a good thing. talking is really dangerous to be casually derogatory, what does that mean? Well, I've seen a lot of professors who look down on business people, well, they don't have businesses and they're angry because business people can do all kinds of things. of money and that's a whole skill set that they don't have and maybe they would have to feel inadequate about it if they thought about it and then I've talked to a lot of business owners who consider teachers like in the ivory tower and you know it's a job easy, it's like, hey, would you try giving a lecture and see how easy it is on a complex topic and publish?
this is why most people are lazy unmotivated in life jordan peterson lewis howe
It's not easy, it's very difficult, just like your job. Casual disdain prevents people from investigating things that might be good for you. They, you know, and well, when I realized that about the game of baseball, I thought there's no content, there's no contempt here, like track on track on track, there's something here that these people are not just stupid and going to a baseball game because they're stupid, you know, it's very easy for us to call people stupid who are doing something that we're not doing, it's like you're not so sure about that, you know, and it would have been better for me if I would have done. a wider variety of skills that weren't so high intensity I play ping pong with my son, that works well, I probably could have played another sport or two, I could have had some leisure activities where I was good at music, could have been good, but they weren't It's not that demanding look what I tried to do if I saw something was difficult I wanted to master it I felt driven to do it just to see how far I could go in these multiple directions and that left me vulnerable to one thing that left me vulnerable to being in a situation that I wasn't healthy enough to handle, so you think that if you had had these other leisure hobbies that you did for fun and play, you wouldn't potentially be in the situation that you might as well have been. easier to start over, I'm sure I would have done it.
this is why most people are lazy unmotivated in life jordan peterson lewis howe
I think I am. You know I'm trying to figure it out. But someone asked me the other day. Know? Do you regret the path you have taken? That's a question worth considering and the basic answer is well, I don't know, I guess in a sense because if you get seriously ill, especially if it's not clear why you don't know what you could have done. contribute to it because you don't know what it is and people say, well you know you did

this

tour of 160 cities in a year, maybe that was too much, it's like it doesn't seem like much, I really enjoyed it, actually, right? ?
You had fun, it was great, Dave told me all about how amazing it was and every night a new city and it was great, but it was also very intense and I exposed myself to a lot of misery, you know, meeting people, so many people. With so many thousands of people, I opened myself up to a tremendous amount of misery and longing and pain, and that was very emotionally impactful, but I can't say for sure what the consequence of that was, I mean, I had worked through it. As a clinical psychologist for decades, I had to deal with people who were in trouble all the time and that was actually an extraordinarily positive undertaking because even though I was dealing with very serious problems and people were in trouble, they were on a good path and they were getting better. better and we were collaborating on that so it was a lovely undertaking I loved it I loved it in deep conversations meaningful conversations dedicated to making things better it was great so it's hard to say I guess then yeah I don't know yeah , that's what I have.
However, I have noticed that I have been opening up my day to work more and more, so now I work from 3 to 30 to 6 pretty intensely every day and I started one day a week and then it was two and then it was three and then I could see if I was better when I was working or I was better when I wasn't working and the answer was clear, I was better when I was working and not only was it clear to me, it was clear to the people who were taking a good look at me and it seems to me that also indicates that probably It wasn't the work that hurt me.
Interesting. I think it's possible that too many things were happening at once. If that's possible. It certainly distracted me, so maybe it was. I'm not paying attention to exactly the right thing, but I don't know, I can't, I still don't know and I may never know, so that's a skill you wish you had developed when you were 20, what is it maybe? Two other skills you wish you had developed, so that's as far as I've come with that line of thinking. Yeah, what do you think about the skills people should start developing in their 20s in general to achieve them? better human beings potentially more open to success financial relationship health what are two or three things everyone should focus on in their 20s well it certainly doesn't hurt to be in good physical condition so we can get through it stop drink too much How do you know if you are drinking too much?
You regret what you do when you're drinking. Interferes with other important goals. It's causing you financial problems. It's getting you in trouble with your friends or family. It's getting you in trouble. problems with the police, okay, so stop abusing substances if you can, of course, if you see that they are harming you, alcohol is particularly harmful in that sense, so your physical health, are you in good shape, are you strong and coordinated, and if you are? you would be better off if you were right you would feel better you would be more effective you would live longer you would be less sick and you really see that mountain up as if someone had been in shape once in their

life

they age much better and it is also a very good way to maintain their ability cognitive, like you know you hear about those exercises you can do online to get smarter and keep your cognitive ability intact.
Those don't work, there's no evidence that they do. work people keep saying they make you smarter they maintain your cognitive function psychologists have studied it for 50 years waiting for one of those things to work trying all kinds of creative taxes they don't work exercise works cardiovascular and weight lifting you start to decline Your fluid intelligence starts around age 25 and is a linear downhill trend and can accelerate as you get older. It's quite ugly like that. If you exercise, you avoid it, so that's really helpful. Maintain your relationships and foster them. So when I look at successful people, they're really good at something, they're trustworthy, right?
You can take their word for it, they are generous and have a wide network of connections that becomes more and more valuable as you get older, yes. So, it's an advantage that older people really have over younger people: they have a network of connection and a network of connection is huge. Well, you could be connected to a thousand well-connected people. Well, that means you're connected to the whole world. It is incredibly valuable. That's one of the absolutely remarkable things about the situation I find myself in now. One of the big benefits is that I can contact al

most

anyone and they will talk to me.
It's really true, that's great. I am interested in infrastructure for reasons I won't explain but I am interested in infrastructure development. I think it is a good method of wealth transfer. It is a good solution to the problem of inequality and employment. Last week I spoke to a prominent infrastructure expert to see if he could talk to me. I thought I don't know anything about infrastructure except that it's worn out and we should do something about it. You know, he agreed to speak and having a connection network is of inestimable value, it is enormous reliability, generosity, you can work on both, philosophical sophistication, it is very useful because it guides you properly, you have a sophisticated sense of the world, you find, for example , that you are doing things for others. people is actually more rewarding than virtually anything else you can do.
When you listen, you know that you should be of service to other people. If you really watch yourself, pay attention, and do something that helps someone else and really helps them. It challenges you to find another experience that is as satisfying. It's actually quite surprising how satisfying it is and that's why it's very helpful to understand it and why helping someone else is the

most

satisfying thing for probably most people when they do it. you know from his ego of wanting to buy more things to make me happy right now why it's such a satisfying thing for human beings uh there's no better strategy because there's no better

life

strategy I mean imagine I could give you a A quick technical example, like this So imagine I take two people and say, "Okay, I'll give you a hundred dollars and you have to give a portion to the person next to you and they can agree or disagree with the division, but if they don't agree okay, you don't get anything, so a classical economist would say that the person should take the hundred, offer a dollar to the person next to him and the person should accept it because why don't they get a dollar instead of nothing and that's the solution, but what happens is that if you don't offer that other person something close to 50 50, they will probably tell you to go to hell, yes, a lot, and they think nothing, you don't get anything either, you think well , why would people do that they just reject 50 and who cares and the answer is well we don't just play a game with other people we play a repeated game so imagine we did this imagine it's a crowd and everyone They are looking at you and I offer you a hundreddollars and you have to share them with the person next to you and you say would you like to take seventy dollars and the person says well, I'm not sure that's fair to you, but if it's okay, yes, but then everyone else sees . that and now everyone has the opportunity to choose who they play next.
Well, you're not going to be mad because they picked you last. Do you remember what you told me? You didn't want to be chosen last. Alright? And? what you did was you became an athlete, a machine, okay, great, but imagine we expanded that game, yeah, and we said you want to be the person that everyone wants to play with, yeah, well, then all you you have in your entire life are invitations to play well how and how you are going to be that person be productive simple generous make everyone else better around you and they will want to play with you absolutely so there you have it and then you can play yes, exactly well , how is?
That's not the best possible deal, clearly, so if the ethical argument is made correctly, it is by far the most compelling argument, it's like you want to have everything you could ever want, and the more you are a good person , better. As a person you are more likely to have that happen, that doesn't mean you are completely protected from getting your knees cut off, but there is no best strategy, that's all and you can even think about it selfishly and I'm talking about this. to a certain point and beyond the order let's say let's say you want to be selfish you think it's the best possible strategy why should I care about others okay let's say you should only act in your own interest well then it's in your best interest well , what does interest mean and what do you mean? what is best for you what is best for you three mysteries what is your what is best what interests you well well there you are but it's not just you now it's you and you tomorrow and you next week and you the next month and you in five years and you in 10 years and you, when you are a pensioner, you are a community of beings that extends over time and, therefore, if you were enlightened and selfish, you would act accordingly. a way that would benefit that entire community over time and I don't think that's any different than acting in the best way possible for other people.
I think they are the same problem, so I think as soon as humans discovered the future, we know that we were no longer. the singular individuals instantly became each a community and then the ethic of the community prevails and the ethic of the community is: I want to win in a way that makes you win, that is the best possible victory, win and what is the point , well you think it's a zero sum game, it's either you or me or maybe I want the comparative status, but I would say that even if you want the comparative status, let's say you're just motivated by it, which would confer even hypothetically more status than being the most popular person and at the same time being chosen for games I mean, think about that just think for a second about the right thing because that biographical peace Alfred Adler caught my attention, who is the psychologist I told you about Earlier, he said that one of his claims was that many people have clear memories that mark the course of their lives.
Those are true moments. Yes, and you have exactly that. I suspect Adlerian psychology would be of great interest to you, but you partly see what happened. You had a real revelation. I thought that if. I'm being picked last something is wrong and that's absolutely true it's incredibly right and you played it first in the athletic domain but you have to start somewhere right so that's a good place to start jockle told me when We talked this week. tough-natured man, you know, and he could have done it and I'm not telling out-of-school stories here, he could have been a criminal without a problem and he knows it perfectly well and I'm not saying that he's not saying it as an insult. his character partly because I believe in the Nietzschean saying that much of morality is simply cowardice, whatever it is, he's not a coward, is he? and so and just because you obey the laws doesn't mean you're moral, it could just mean you're In any case, I'm scared, so the question is, what did this brute socialize?
Well, they taught him in the Navy Seals, take care of your team, that's your fundamental purpose and he noticed that and we had a long discussion about this, successful guys, you know? they have your back, right, they know it, above all, yes, and if, yes, if you aspire to a leadership position among those brutes, let's say, and you're not someone they know has your back, they're not following you. You won't make it, yeah, ah, you won't make it and that's why the discussions about power that are so prevalent in modern culture bother me so much, it's like you think male hierarchies are based on power.
Think they are when they're rotten but when they're not rotten that's not what they're based on at all the ability to wield power that's really important you need it to have to be a part of you for you to be admirable it's like you can be a tough son of a bitch, yes I see it and in that way I feel a little intimidated by you and that is actually a testament to your moral virtue that you have enough strength and power to be intimidating but if you can sum that up and taking that power potential and harnessing it for this larger good, that's unstoppable and a real functional hierarchy, that's what it is, yes, I know how important your wife is to you and in fact, the first thing you write is the importance of 50 years you have been in love with your wife.
I'm curious to know what you love most about your wife. That's my first question. I think it's very difficult to say exactly why you're attracted to someone. There are many factors. and a lot of them you don't know, actually, she's very provocative, she's witty and, uh, sharp, so there's always an element of play like it's not a dishonest game, but there's a flirtatious, provocative tease that she characterizes quite deeply. any stretch of the imagination and I find it constantly interesting and intriguing, um, it's particular, it can be kind of difficult for me when I'm not feeling well, but when I'm awake and functioning properly, that works extremely well, and yeah, what?
Would you say that would be the keys to the success of 50 years of loving each other and being in what appears to be a functional, healthy relationship, when in today's society that doesn't seem to be the case for many of those? Well, we really do the best we can. to not lie to each other about anything and we also have fights when they are necessary we do not leave things we do not hide things in the fog that is the title of chapter three of my new book do not hide things in the fog fog and we solve our problems, if we have a dispute, we do everything we can to get to the bottom of the matter and find out what is causing it, who needs to change and why, how, when and then. how can we move forward into the future without that problem chasing us or dragging us down or interfering with us at all and that means a little bit of confrontation I would say, but less so over the years as we've solved more and more things. but everything is in sight, everything we can achieve is in sight.
You can't have a relationship without trust and you bravely trust your partner if you are not naive knowing that they can hurt you and that you can be. cheated on and you can also do both so you offer your partner your trust as an invitation to be honest and communicative and then problems arise and you dig into them and you fix them and we take care of the relationship too um I'm not going to refer to this new book continually, but it is relevant in this context, it is chapter 10, plan and work diligently to maintain romance in your relationship and we do it too and it takes effort, I mean, we.
We try to have throughout our relationship, we try to go on romantic dates one to three times a week and they require preparation and cooperation and the willingness to do it and the willingness to take risks and the desire to make that a priority even when other things are more pressing we both want it to work, that is something else we are committed to and we are not interested in finding another relationship and so far we have been fortunate and that has worked, we have fun together, we love our children, we have had projects together of all kinds together renovating houses traveling raising our children now our grandchildren but all that is the most important thing as far as I'm concerned is not to lie to your partner you said you don't have a relationship if you don't have trust or if there is no trust in the relationship, how does someone do it?
If someone doesn't trust the other party, how do you cultivate trust? If you are 100% honest with that person. If you are transparent about every action you do in your life. If you know that they have access to whatever they want to see and you are constantly building trust, but for some reason they may still be jealous or insecure or not believe you, how can anyone get someone to trust them? It's not about them at that stage but about the other person and their insecurities, well it depends a lot on the details of the situation. You know, I don't know if there's a generic answer to that.
I think you can set the ground rules that you know explicitly and have a discussion about whether we are going to lie to each other or not? let's tell each other the truth as much as possible to make that a real goal and talk about the consequences of doing that and not doing that and then I would also say that whenever a setback occurs in the relationship, maybe don't mention it in every setback, you know, because you have to have a certain amount of silent tolerance in any relationship to let the little infractions go. but if they repeat my rule is three times and it is the rule that I share with my wife if something happens three times that is causing emotional distress anger jealousy disappointment resentment frustration any of those things anything that you don't want to experience and that you especially don't want to experience repeatedly, so you can mention it and if you have three examples, your case is much better presented than if you only had one and I would also say that when you mention it, you know that I could say look, we were at a party the other night and you were, I thought I felt like if you were paying too much intense attention to um, Dave, there was some flirting there, that's what it seemed like to me, there was some flirting. going on there and you know that made me uncomfortable well don't you say well you were flirting stop doing it you say well that's what it looked like that's what it looked like to me and here was my answer and then you want to think and maybe I'm a fucking fool and blind and jealous and stupid and I'm misunderstanding or maybe it was harmless flirting of the kind people often engage in because it adds a little spice to a social interaction you want. figure it out, it's very convenient if it's the other person's fault, except you're burdened by living with that person, so it doesn't really help you anyway, but it's convenient because then they have to change, but you have to think about it.
This in the long term you are going to interact with this person minute by minute for decades. um, if you're the idiot and that's causing problems, then you should figure it out, so you want to say, well, look, this is what I saw what's your explanation of what's going on and then they'll offer you their point of view and with luck they will do the same. They'll think well, this is my intention and maybe they have to go think about it, but this is my intention and This is what I saw and I think you're being overly sensitive in that situation and you peel back the explanations layer by layer until you're both agree about what happened and, more importantly, what you are going to do about it in the future and that is It's really difficult and especially if something is happening that is not right, because that will require a little bit of investigation, It will probably result in anger, tears and a fight, and that is very unpleasant.
It's easier in the short term to avoid it, but with luck. The consequence of that is that you don't have to have that fight again, you have to come to a negotiated agreement about that situation and you have to pay attention to your own uncomfortable negative emotions so that you can manage that and not pretend. that everything is fine or that you are kinder than you are or that you are less jealous than you are or or less blind or that you see one of the things I learned from carl jung, the psychoanalyst, about marriage was that there is a reason to Marriage was a vow like the vow is to stay together, okay, so now imagine it's a vow, okay, you can't leave, period, okay, so what does that mean?
Well, on the plus side, it means you don't have to be alone, it means your family will have continuity for decades, it means the narrative of your life won't be fragmented or broken by divorce or sequential divorce, it means your kids can grow up and such. Maybe having your children within a continuous family means that your children will have continuity being able to maintain relationships with grandparents on both sides and cousins ​​as if it were a big deal maintaining that there are huge advantages to it means that you will have someone there when you don't. you're fine and your partner will too, and that will mean you have someone to share all the positive things in life with, so that has huge advantages, okay, so why does it have to be a vote?
Well I do not. I don't think you cantell the truth to someone who can run away because if you tell the truth to someone and he can run away, he will run away immediately because you are a messy man and not just because of your own inadequacies. but because human beings are so complicated and have such dark corners and have had unresolved problems in their lives that sometimes go back generations and are twisted and bent into all kinds of shapes and you can't figure it out, it's very, It's very hard to reveal that except to someone who can't run away now that you know I'm not saying people should never break up.
What I'm saying is it's better not to do it if you can pull it off, but the other thing is also if you can't run away then you're motivated in a different way it's like I'm stuck with this woman and she's stuck with me and unless we want to have this same damn fight over and over and over again until the next one who knows how Why don't we fix it and then we can put it behind us? The vowel gives you a kind of desperation which is another motivation to solve problems and if you have a way out, you can always stay. hidden you can protect yourself you can protect yourself and even protect that part of you that thinks it can leave if things get too bad now the problem with that in my opinion is that you are going to drag your stupidity into the next relationship the right thing to do, always do the right thing , generally the right thing, and now you can become very, you can, you can, in unfortunate circumstances, you can get involved with someone who is not playing a direct game with you and won't, and it's just impossible, but I.
I'm not talking about the borderline cases, you know, I'm talking about the average case, the average amount of unhappiness and problems, it's still enough and then I'm sorry, just one more thing I would add to that, you also have to, in a sense, shake the illusion that the other person is somehow not you. You are so tied to it that there is no difference between you and them. In a sense, what is good for her will be good for you and vice versa. One of the things we try. What we should do with the two of us is try to say yes to each other.
Now there are rules that go along with that, which is nice. I'm going to tell you yes, but that means you shouldn't ask me unreasonably. I shouldn't make unreasonable demands, I'll say yes as much as I can and then you'll do it in return and then we'll get a yes out of the deal instead of a no, that's a big plus too, so that's it, is there anything? more about yourself you want you want you have to want the best for the other person and for yourself and for the relationship and within that limit you want to tell the truth to each other yes the truth is huge and I heard you mentioned it jealousy and insecurity in Sometime that message is that there is a place for jealousy and insecurity in a relationship.
Is there a healthy amount of jealousy that people should have in a relationship or does jealousy and insecurity only cause more suffering and pain in a relationship? Well, I think there's a reasonable amount of ownership interest, let's say I'm talking about a classic monogamous relationship, a marriage, your sexual fidelity is a crucial element of that, um, and maybe you make an agreement that differs from that, but It's not easy to chart unexplored territory like that. I mean, if you want to have an affair like that with a partner, a monogamous affair that also includes sexual exploration, well, maybe you can pull it off, but I doubt it's really complicated, let's say you're not having sexual exploration with other people and they're telling the truth and they are being honest, is there room to be jealous or insecure?
In that relationship, or so it is, jealousy usually causes more damage than you know, spicy and well, I guess I think jealousy probably causes more problems. That's good, but that doesn't mean there's anything wrong with property interest. If you care, if your partner pays undue attention to someone of the opposite sex that they find attractive, you should probably care. You might even say something about it. They might even be. I'm happy with that right because it indicates that you realized it and that it's important to you now. I think it turns into jealousy when it comes to harmless interactions.
These are interactions that an outside observer would consider harmless. Let's say I know it's a very difficult line to define. draw that are magnified as a result of insecurity on the part of the observer or there is envy where your partner is attracting attention state success any of those things and you are jealous of it is not useful you should be happy the optimal situation is for you should be happy when your couple is successful um I don't think that competitive couples I don't think that competition between people who are in a monogamous relationship is useful, in particular, it's not a zero-sum competition, yeah, um, I mean, you can compete in a game . -as a sense, okay, as a not very playful competition, but no, yes, but not existential competition, you are on the same team, that's the point, you know, and if one of you feels abandoned for one reason or another, It's time to discard it. the table and say look, I'm playing second fiddle here too often, what can we do about it?
Well it looks like you need it and I have an affair, it looks like you need it too, how can we? Rearrange the situation so that I have my affair and then it's up to that person to also figure out what obstacles they might be putting in their own way, that's what stops them and then they'll let you know that they're mad at you for getting in the way, but in It's actually a consequence of being used as a convenient excuse not to do something difficult. All of those things need to be resolved. It is very difficult.
These conversations are extremely difficult. No wonder people avoid them. I also believe that people are not taught to negotiate. oh man, not at all, and that's a real shame, first of all, you figure out what you want, this is what I want, then you tell the person and then you strategize with them so you can get what you want and they they can get what they want. and they both know what it is and the way they go together and that usually comes to light, it is usually obscured and hidden and it comes out clumsily in difficulty and with difficulty if it comes to light and people are deluded into thinking that what they do is right. are doing, I'm sacrificing for the kids and that's okay, I'm sacrificing for my husband's career and that's okay, I'm working a job that I can't stand because I need to support my wife and kids and that's okay, I mean, to Sometimes it's okay, but it has to be clear in public, talk about negotiated displeasure, you know, I think you can be a slave or a tyrant or you can negotiate, those are your options and we default to slavery and tyranny. because that doesn't require any cognitive effort and then we pretend that everything is fine and then it blows up in our faces and we end up divorced, so we have to learn to negotiate, yeah, yeah, well, and then you have to realize that there are things that you want well and you have to tell yourself what they are and then you have to let the other person know and then they can deprive you of them because they really know who you are and that is a big risk, but yes well, if you raise it and negotiate, then you will have two people working in the same direction and each will bring their different points of view to address the problem and sometimes that will save you, you know, that extra cognitive complexity that you have because there are two of you instead of one can make them much more effective what happens when we feel that our partner is depriving us of what we want if it is not, you know, infidelity or something like being with other people but something else that we want in our life, a goal, well, actually , that happens all the time, because generally people, men would like to have sex more often than women, so that's a sticking point in many relationships, but forget that for the moment we could also Well, let's say that the probability of one partner and the other having exactly the same level of sexual interest, say with respect to frequency, is quite low, so there will be friction there, so what do you do right?
You negotiate about it. It's like well, I would like to have sex 15 times a week, well, I would like to have sex once a week, okay? Well, you know the logical thing, the logical thing, the meeting point would be in the middle, but That has to be planned. and you also have to say exactly what you mean well, what exactly do you mean by sex? Why are there all kinds of variations of sex that include everything from intimate closeness to full-on sexual activity of various kinds and the various types? They matter too and these are painful discussions.
It's often very funny, in a sense, when people do and want things they won't talk about. They will get into the act, but they won't do it. We participate in the negotiation and they do not admit what they want. Why is it so difficult for us to admit what we want? It embarrasses us. That's easy with sex. Sex and shame regulate sex. You know, people say, "Well, you shouldn't be." ashamed of sex it's like well really really no that's a stupid theory we arrest people who expose themselves in public why well because we don't want people to masturbate in public we assume they should be ashamed enough not to do it that shame regulates sexual behavior so You are ashamed of our desires and you know naively that you would think: well, you can get rid of that, first of all, no, you can't, and second, it's not at all obvious that you should do what you could do.
It's determining how to develop your sex life within the boundaries of your relationship in a way that neither of you finds embarrassing, but that's just think about how hard it is, you know, you think well, that's what I want, but then you think. how unlikely that is and how difficult it would be to achieve. You know you could say if that ever happens to you in your life, once you get lucky, you know it's perfect now. I think that's pessimistic because I think the solutions. That problem can be negotiated, but it's not what everyone wants, but it's an extraordinarily difficult thing to achieve, you know, so let's say you want the ideal romantic evening, well, what are you going to do about it?
Are you in reasonable physical shape? Then you are attractive. Are you going to make a playlist and spend some time on it? Are you going to buy some candles? Are you going to buy something nice to wear? Will you dare to use it? That could be true for you and for you and your partner. Will they dare to use it? Will you be smart enough to use it to respond in a way that makes them feel safe? and increases the likelihood that they will do it again. Are you going to do whatever it takes to be physically attractive in that moment?
Are you going to lock the children up? Do you have daily problems between you that are dragging you down and making you resentful under control so that you really want to give your partner some pleasure as if these things are very difficult, yes, but they are not impossible and they are worth it, but It's not surprising that people don't do it. do it and then the next well then there's the shame part too okay okay exactly what is permissible or desirable and when and when you should do it when your um problems are counterproductive exactly you know we can't we certainly can't we can have that. discussion as a culture, you know, on the one hand, we believe that we are very divided on this, on the one hand, we believe that any sexual misconduct should be subject to the harshest punishment and anything goes and is acceptable, it's like well, good luck to have both. those ideas are correct, it's very interesting for me to see this, you know, there is outrage, constant outrage about sexual misconduct and, it's fair, like you'd be surprised what you mean when you mean that sexual misconduct means that someone cheats on you or that someone is having an affair or how sexual. bad behavior, yes, unwanted sexual attention or sexual harassment, and I'm not saying these things don't happen or that they aren't dire and horrible, they obviously are, it's no wonder that happens, but at the same time we're also obsessed with the notion that any sexual interest of any kind, with the possible exception of sexual interest in children, is absolutely laudable.
Well, I'm sorry, you can't have both right and because we want both of you to insist on both. they then we can't even have a discussion we can't have a discussion about pornography I don't think pornography is really a very good idea I don't think it's helping anyone now you know why there could be codicils to that freedom of expression, some use educational potential, the pleasure that is a consequence of the sexual use of pornographic material, but I would still say that seeing all that, it is not a net social good, it does not benefit the people who produce or consume it.
It's good and I don't think anyone feels like a better human being after using pornography for sexual gratification. Now you could say, well, that's because they've been embarrassed by sex since they were born and you know, and that's a consequence of our culture crooked and you know, in a utopian world we wouldn't have that shame and yeah, no. It's a lot more complicated than that and I read something in one of the YouTube comments on my video the other day. I was talking to Abigail Schreier about the incidentapparent that today's teenagers are having much less sex.
One person commented that it's a shame that men feel when sex is a spectator sport rather than a participatory act and then you think well, you know that the mere fact that you're seeing two other people, one of whom you're not You, having sex instead of having sex, really implies something about your implies something about your desirability. It's pretty hard to get rid of that, isn't it? or your courage, why are you sitting there alone at night with your laptop on your lap? What the hell happens to you? Well, nothing, it's just that we should do without sexual shame it's like no, probably not, that's probably not the answer, so that was all you knew.
Why do people have a hard time negotiating or talking about sex? Well, it's no wonder sex is so dynamite. What do I agree with? it would be a four hour conversation about that, I'm curious, yeah, well that would be a good conversation, we need to have about a 50 hour conversation about that, you should do a series on your YouTube channel about that, I'm curious about that. The biggest challenge you have personally overcome in your marriage that you are very proud of and have overcome in recent years. I don't know if you've been married for 50 years, but I know you wrote that you loved your wife for 50 years, but what's the hardest thing you've overcome as a man or a human being in this relationship that you're extremely proud of?
Did you actually overcome it or have you significantly improved on it? I don't know if I'm proud of it, I'm proud of it. I like success. These things seem so improbable and so dependent on good luck in a sense. You know that, above all, I'm great if things go well for me. Overall, I'm grateful to have escaped the acts, you know, instead of being proud of it. We did a good job of working on our attitude about how we are going to treat our kids, so we are on the same page all the time. time almost all the time, so the children couldn't, we didn't let the children attract one of us or the other, we really participated in their education and we talked about all that and that's good, we have good relationships with our children both and that was also very necessary because my daughter got incredibly sick for a long time and my son we had to ignore him a lot because he just wasn't dying, so it was like a child, sorry, how we did it.
There is a problem here and you and he were a great man, he just mastered it, but if we hadn't worked out our parenting philosophy, let's say we would have, it surely would have sunk us. because it was so close to the limit that few marriages survived the death of a child and it's not surprising, you know, but the serious illness of a child is also an incredible stressor and you know we got through it as well as could be expected . You kind of know, because you look back and think, "Well, we regret it?" right? When do you allow illness to be a reason why they aren't doing something?
When do you allow them to use illness as a reason why they aren't doing something right? It's really very difficult to do it right and sometimes we pushed harder than we should and we were also misunderstood, but at least we did it together and my wife, you know, I've seen a lot of women protect their children from the father, they don't trust him and, therefore, every time he interacts with him. They will do something to the child, a look of disapproval, they will humiliate him now, it's not that men don't do that to their wives. There are all kinds of tricks that men have for their wives.
Men are very good at turning their wives into slaves. for example, for a variety of reasons that we can look at, but if you don't trust men, you won't let them have a hand in children, discipline of children, you know when you think about discipline, you think. threat of punishment and dad says no, that's not discipline, discipline is discipline, if you discipline someone properly, they become disciplined, that means they are competent, they are organized, they have structure, yes, they can control themselves, so I give them I will give you, an example, my son is a quite unpleasant person by nature, he is very masculine, he has a very high emotional stability, so he does not have many negative emotions and he is very and relatively low in agreeableness, he is um, he is and that It's the typical male pattern that the two big personality differences between men and women are women's agreeableness is greater and neuroticism women's tendency to feel negative emotions is greater, so what that meant is that when he was a child he was a stubborn little puppy and it was hard to get him to do what he didn't want to do and you know that's the mark of a character who's hard to stop so he has real advantages but the kids who are nasty are a handful because they think that I'm not doing that and you can't.
Make me understand, he was pretty good at that and it's one of your rules from the first book, like don't let your kids do anything that makes you like them, yeah, yeah, and then we should talk about it because that's how it is. I think that's a good rule, but the rule I used to use for him was knowing that he would push the limits in various ways and he was very good at that and quite persistent at it, and I would talk to my wife and say Look, Julian is It's getting a little aggressive here, we've got to crack down on them and stop them and this is what I see and she was saying this is what I see and we were like, well this is what we're going to go after. one week he's not going to get his way like the lineman, he's like a kid, he'd be three or three and a half right now, sit on the steps, sit on the steps, and if he wouldn't because he was stubborn.
Well, he would bring it and put it on the steps like you would. If I say you're going to sit on the steps, you're absolutely going to sit on the steps, so it was very interesting to see because he would be angry, you know, because he was interfered with, he couldn't do what he wanted to do and, um, he would be. and he would sit on the steps but he would get angry as hell in the There the arms move up and down and you just sit on the steps like you know like that you just get over yourself with anger and the rule was that as soon as you control yourself and you can act like a civilized human being and you want to have a good day, then you come and tell me and that's it, you're done, but it had to be real and look, my criterion for accepting his statement was whether or not I liked it when he said it.
He said, you know if it was. Still being like that, uh, if he still misbehaved and broke the rules, it wouldn't be genuine when he talked nice to me, but if he came and said, "It's okay, Dad, like I've had enough." I controlled myself, I'd rather have a good day and as soon as he said I liked it, it was like, hey man, you're back at the park, yeah, well, I didn't want him to sit on the steps anymore. having it around, sure, sure, but you know, we were okay with it and therefore the discipline, so the question is to see what the discipline aspect was, what I was talking about is that he learned how to integrate it into his personality and I could see him doing that sitting on the steps.
It was just this aggression circuit that is incredibly powerful. I just dominated him and he just forced it. Get it under control. Get it under control. Take it easy. Return to the social world. and it was a victory for his developing ego, you see, because he was not defeated by his own impulses and that is discipline, so you are not defeated by your own impulses, so discipline has a connotation wrong. He was encouraging him, you can overpower him. This man worked and was very useful to us later because when Michaela got so sick, he was together, we could trust him, so it was necessary and has not stopped being necessary, and he is a very reliable person who does what he wants is a great combination yes that is beautiful when you feel the most loved

jordan

when what is when what is happening around you or when you are creating something or when you are with people when you feel personally most loved is when I am with my family when I'm with my kids and when I'm with my family friends as well and that's been even more the case over the last few years because my family and friends have been incredibly loyal and helpful to me and my family as we've had issues terrible, terrible problems over the last few years, they have been incredibly reliable and helpful, incredible, certainly, people have gone out of their way for me in a way that I don't think they would have done.
For them, all right, look, I saw my father-in-law, when, and I taught them to write about this beyond the order, oh no, I read it in 12 more rules, I think, but it doesn't matter, he's like he's really outgoing . obnoxious guy overly masculine guy outgoing assertive guy everyone in the small town I grew up in knew who he was he was an artist you know the life of the party um and a good businessman but a real character and uh he did his thing but then His wife contracted prefrontal dementia when she was very young, 55 years old.
And man, he took care of her for 15 years. Wow he was amazing and it was also very interesting because if we offered to help him he would accept it right away and anything we could do that. I wish I once suggested, for example, that he buy a digital reading sign so that if he went out he could write where he was going on the sign and it would repeat itself over and over. Oh, that's great and some recordings. in the bathroom to help his wife remember what to do and he would just implement them and accept them and implement them right away, but he was this guy who lived his own life, who was a very outgoing social person, not someone you I would have thought of him as soft and loving and I don't mean that in a negative way, it's just that that wasn't him, that wasn't Mother Teresa, you know, he just cared about her in a way that was absolutely amazing and I saw it in my eyes too. friends and my family for the care they have given tammy and me over the past two years.
It's mind-blowing, mind-blowing, but I would say the place I like to be most is in a family situation when everyone is when there are no elephants under the rug and everyone is playing, if you ever have that you should consider yourself incredibly lucky because it's unlikely and you can lose it at any time, yes I was in the hospital or so for a year and then another year with tammy and I thought I had lost all that, I will never get it back, it was very terrible and now when it happens I mean, I've always been grateful for that, when it happens, fight for it, you know the animal experimenters. have shown that those who study the game, this is yak pancep in particular, but there are a variety of them who study the game, brilliant, brilliant scientists, they play like a circuit, it is a mammalian circuit, it is a specialized circuit and it is very important for the development that this circuit occurs. free reign to play that's how children play roles in the world that they're eventually going to adopt they play mother, they play father, they play, they play all these different roles and that's how they learn to be those things the father's role is to put security so that the game can happen so that the security is there, that's the wall, let's say fortify the walls, man, the walls protect the walls, but inside the walls, so that's where the game can take place and the game It is interrupted very easily. hunger thirst any emotional indicate that any motivational state can replace it even though it is very, very important, so you must have the walled garden in place before the game can occur, eliminate the fears so that it is safe for the experimentation can take place within that paradise, true, true, it is a walled garden. that is what paradise means it is a walled garden where structure and nature the walls of the garden interact harmoniously and where eternal play can occur that is paradise and you can glimpse that when everyone is often together at the table without fighting and and and and Nor not fighting, of course, of course, yes, fighting, but it's not like everyone is fighting each other but no one says anything.
Well, we're not going to talk about that. We're not going to bring up the topic. We're not going to discuss that. because that is not paradise either, no, that is a simulation and you see that this negotiation is the eradication of the need for that simulation, it is as if you had a problem with me, we are going to solve it well, because we are going to take it with us, right? want? Do that so people wonder why I get into a conflict. I hate conflict, it is and I find it very stressful, but delayed conflict is multiplied conflict.
Oh, that's so true. It is worse to have a persistent conflict for months, years, and decades than the pain of a direct conflict that can hopefully be resolved. and move forward if absolutely fine and as the conflict is delayed the reasons multiply and the people who are involved because they are avoiding degrading themselves become weaker and less confident and then it is a vicious circle it is better to note that there is a line in the new testament christ talks about prayer and so you imagine that as communion with god so you can imagine that as an attempt to confer with the ideal or maybe even to occupy that space for a while well, christ says that if you have aproblem with your brother, fix that first, go pray later, yes.
Yeah, well, that's that, that's that, that's that, that's that, that's that, that's that, that's that, that's that, that's that, that's that, that's that, that's that, that's that, that's that, that's that, that's that, that's that, that's that, that's that, that's that, that's that, that's that, that's that, that's that, that's that, that's that, that's that, that's that, that's that, that's that, and that's a good thing, since you know if you're angry at the people close to you, if you're resentful, I read a lot about that in chapter 11. resentment is so useful it's so useful it's so horrible so toxic it's so destructive but it's so informative right, if you're resentful or you're being oppressed and you don't fight back or you're complaining and you should grow up and both.
It's It really helps to realize things and all you have to do is realize that you are resentful and you want to do something about it. Okay, I'm resentful. Okay, am I immature? Know? Are there people who mess with me? o I'm immature o if people bother me I have something to say or something to do I should do it it's a gateway to improvement resentment or you can let it go you can foster it and let it devour you and take you to places no one with a clear mind has ever I would like to go to hell, that's resentment, man, that's the way to hell and if you don't believe in hell you have no imagination, that's my sense of things and what you mentioned, paradise is a safe space where we can play. and have fun and feel protected, but many times, at least in the last year, I see more and more in the world that the challenges of anxiety, stress, depression of the mind or heart and body seem to rise to the surface . for many people even more so and it seems and seems to me that when I connect with people, many things from the past, past memories, past pains, traumas, are coming to the fore for many years. people with the chaos of the now, how do we begin to heal the memories of the past, the traumas of the past so that they do not continue to hurt us in the presence?
Well, the first thing I would say is that sometimes there is a crisis and well-meaning mental health professionals rush to discuss the trauma while it is still happening. It's a very bad idea. People are usually traumatized because something really horrible happened and thinking about it in the moment only makes it worse. It's not like anyone has a solution. That is how. you should understand this you know someone just shot up your son's school this is how you should understand this it will make everything better it's like no it won't if you have old baggage that often comes up if you're having an argument with someone doesn't know you know what it's like this is part of why people don't like to have a dispute within a relationship because it's a thread and you pull that thread and my goodness, oh, if only we had another rule, right?
I don't agree with something you don't agree with ooh like if we're going to if we decide you and I that we're going to do this we don't go back and say well I didn't really mean it we don't get it playing revisionism with our history , so if you don't agree, don't agree, object to the fight or keep quiet because you see what happens with couples: there is a little fight and then one says together, yes, but you did this and then that. The person says yes, I know I did that, but that was because you did this and each this gets bigger until what's on the table is why the hell should we stay together?
So every fight becomes why the hell should we stay together? all that's another thing you want to do is fight about this not about that about the past not about everything it's like you're flirting I think you were flirting more than you should have been okay so I'm leaving and I think well, okay, maybe it was okay, so we need to have a discussion about why and maybe we can resolve that, but mostly all we need to do is figure out how to prevent that from happening again, okay, so we'll go see. the same couple again what do you want me to do so I'm the flirt let's say what you want me to do right you have to understand that's like no, I'm stupid like you we are equally stupid I need to know what would satisfy you and you need to find out what would satisfy you would satisfy so they know and that's also extremely helpful so you can set your conditions of satisfaction, make them explicit, let the other person know, yeah, you can't. reading someone's mind, we're really bad at that, we're bad at reading our own minds, yeah, so if I have a fight with Tammy, let's say sometimes I remember to say, okay, what do you want me to do? right now what can I do what should I say and what do I want to say you know and think well you shouldn't let the other person put words in your mouth well it's true you know I'm not acting I'm not asking for something false I'm saying I wish this wouldn't happen .
Can you see a way out? Is there anything I can do to increase the likelihood that that's the route we can take? You know, sometimes that works, but the other person has to let you do it. I know what they would find satisfying you mentioned you brought up sexual shame um and it triggered something in me about past shames that people tend to hold on to I think I might have mentioned this to you last time we spoke. I'm not sure if you know this, but I was sexually abused when I was five by a man I didn't know and for 25 years I kept the secret, the shame, uh, and if anyone ever knew about this, then they would never know.
I love it, you know it well, because you feel permanently contaminated. Yes, you would know that I wouldn't have any friends. No girl would find me attractive. My parents would disown me. You know, I went down the rabbit hole. These You Know What I Am stories. The only one that this has happened to I never saw any examples of this happening on the right and about eight years ago I started to really heal that and share that shame and in many different therapeutic experiences that allowed me to begin the healing process. I'm curious from your perspective with all the work you've done, what's the best approach for someone to really heal their shame, whether it's sexual abuse or trauma or anything, whether it's small or big or any type of shame.
You may have how someone releases shame in a healthy way so that it doesn't make them a prisoner of these past emotions that are holding them back. Well, you hinted at a few things when you just described what happened to you. I said well, first of all, you know I thought I was the only person this had happened to. It's like no, it's a universal human experience to one degree or another. Now you know, I'm not saying that everyone has been sexually abused and they certainly haven't. to say that some people are not sexually abused to such an extreme degree that it is unimaginable that there are others that you know get off relatively well, but it is still within the realm of normative human experience that sex goes wrong in some way at least You regret something that happened, something you did or something that was done to you, so put it in when, when you are the only person to whom something has happened that is really not good, because it distances you even from yourself.
I have no idea what to do with that and that's why sometimes people find it such a relief to have their illness diagnosed. It's like oh, this is known. There is a category where other people have had this experience. Maybe there is a way through it, so just know that. you're not the only person like that can be very helpful um update it's like when you were how old five okay, one thing you have to realize when you're 25 and you were abused when you were five is that you're not five It's already true, it's true that The person that this happened to is no longer there, you are there, but you know that you can be afraid of relationships, you can be afraid of all kinds of things, but a lot of that is that you feel like that residual five-year-old girl. , I tell a story about a client I had, her older brother abused her and she told me this story and I drew a picture in my head while she was, you know, I pictured her at five and this big teenager, you know, taking advantage of her, but as she told the story, I realized that her older brother was only a year, two years older than her, while he was seven, okay, well, they were, she was not the victim of a tyrannical man in a sense she was two poorly supervised children now that doesn't mean what she did was right but she was still the five year old girl in the memory but she was 27 when she came to see so the first thing I did was point out which is like thinking about the seven-year-olds you know: to a five-year-old, a seven-year-old is an adult, but to an adult, a seven-year-old and a five-year-old are clearly both children, that changed things a little, made her feel less vulnerable in the moment, what your brain wants from you in relation to a traumatic memory is an indication that you are no longer vulnerable to the same problem.
That's what memory is for, you remember something bad and you process it to change your interpretation or your behavior or the situation or anything that you can change so that it doesn't happen in the future and that will happen if you do it. that thoroughly you will generally let yourself rest um is if you have the memory to protect you from it happening again well, that is the purpose of memory in general you make sense of your past behavior so that you can bet on the good things that happen to you you can duplicating and bad things can be avoided it's not about making an objective record of the world, it's about making a functional map of the world that can be applied to the future and so, yeah, how do we let it go?
How do we dissociate? something that happened a year ago 10 or 20 years ago that is no longer happening but seems to be triggering us oh it's very it's very difficult well I would say you know one of the things that you need to develop if you've had an experience. like the one you had maybe because I don't know the details you probably need a theory of malevolence you need an explanation it's like how could a person do it so well? You have to have it, what if the explanation is not good? they were just a bad person they are just okay so you need a philosophy of evil you need a philosophy of evil you have to understand it so that you are no longer a victim of it because otherwise you can't put the event in the right context you know and sometimes that means development of real philosophical sophistication and that can help because then you know that you can start to separate malevolence from benevolence because maybe now you are afraid of any intimate relationship because it has been contaminated with that and everything is Confused and confused, so you need to understand to the person who did that, at least to some extent, so that you can separate that person from all the other people around you that you encounter in situations that might remind you. you felt vulnerable because maybe you felt embarrassed all those things have to happen because you think you know when you're embarrassed when he does what causes that what are the signs that cause what do you think when that happens?
All of that has to be dismantled, I said in this book beyond order, you know if you have a memory from more than 18 months ago that still bothers you, right, it still has emotional resonance more than 18 months ago or yes, not more than 18 months ago. months or more otherwise It's not really in the past, right, it's still happening that whether you should delve into something or something traumatic that's currently happening is a completely different topic, but if it's an old memory and it still bothers you, It means you have done it. I didn't break that experience down enough to separate it from the emotive emotion, so imagine that when something terrible happens to you and you don't understand it, then you could say, "Well, if you don't understand something that's happening to you, how can it be terrible?" " It's not terrible, it means that you understand it and the answer is good, you understand things in stages and the first way to understand a terrible thing is to freeze in terror or run, that is understanding, it is not conceptual, it is embodied and emotional, so which is a horror event. that's the first category, okay now the next question is how to get it out, how to get out of the terror, well you realize that nothing really dangerous is happening, what if something really dangerous happened?
So you craft your worldview to the point at which you are no longer vulnerable to that terrible thing and that is extremely difficult, so the memory of something terrible remains terrible until you process it with effort and break it down into a map much most sophisticated thing in the world and it's really difficult to Do that, what is the most difficult thing in your life to deconstruct after the event so that it doesn't consume you emotionally from the initial terror? Because you study this, you practice this, you teach this, but when you know it as a practitioner teaching is that there was a time when you were like a man, this is very difficult for me to understand, oh, absolutely, it's chronic, I mean that status.it's chronic for me right now, I would say partly because I've become incredibly famous and I'm struggling with that, sure it's very hard to understand who I am and why, and I wouldn't say I've achieved it.
I guess I'm getting there, but then the health scare that has hit my family and I has been so devastating that I can't evenI have achieved it, as you know, that is what I suggest to people, no. That's not even that, it's what I've found that you do with terrible things, you usually don't run from them, especially if they can't be avoided in the future, you usually cope, you break down, you understand, you adapt, but only because you usually do that. and it's the best bet doesn't mean it's definitely going to work, it's just the best chance you have of making it happen, you know, it would be wonderful if something always worked, but if something always worked, people would never get sick or die, and we would. all the time so we do our best, but that doesn't mean it always works, but it's still the best thing to do, it's still better than all the alternatives, so how do you cultivate your own personal inner peace among others? different changes that have arisen whether you know fame health challenges uh personally maybe challenges with family your friends how do you personally maintain a level of inner peace in the midst of chaos I walk a lot I exercise a lot who I am? walk about seven miles a day now and exercise too and that's necessary.
I'm comforted if you didn't walk and exercise where you think you'd really be, yes definitely, it's physically because you wouldn't do it. be taking care of your body physically or because mentally and emotionally your peace would be chaotic and would lead you to die like that wow yes so you can see that you are saying sorry I was interrupting you so well peace that comes to you if' I'm lucky and sometimes it doesn't happen. I try to do things that I think are worthwhile, that seem worthwhile, and that gives me comfort. I guess so. So I write, I talk to people I find interesting about things. which I think are vitally important.
I am trying to learn and communicate as a result of talking to these people. I'm trying to do what I can for my family and my friends and do what I can beyond that too. a variety of different ways, those are all useful endeavors and keep me going. What have you found to be best practices for managing mass attention? Whether you want to call it fame, massive attention, massive audience, people who are fans of your message, your work. As an individual, fortunately, that hasn't happened too much. The fanatic side of things. You know, I've had my fair share of brushes with people who were a little more persistent than was probably good and you know I could see hidden signs of mental problems.
There are health issues behind that and fortunately very little of that has happened and um that's certainly all for the better because you're not living in Los Angeles that's probably why it might as well be but for some reason I have been quite Fortunately, I talk about what I'm doing with the people around me all the time and I try to keep it on the right track to the extent that I can do it and to see if what I'm doing. it's justifiable and ethical and we're all terrified by it, you know, to a point that's very difficult to communicate, you know, we live in a time where if you make a mistake you can be torn apart and I would say to a certain point, the more visible you are more thorough than destruction, oh right, yes, so the cost of an error, an ethical error, is incredibly high, the cost of the emergence of an ethical error is extremely high, much less the cost of an ethical error real, so we are very careful to try to act ethically in every possible way, appearance and reality, and everything is being observed, yes, well, I mean, I can, I have no idea what all this looks like from the outside, but my reputation has been publicly at stake many, many times and partly at times.
Direct accusations sometimes as a consequence of things I said hypothetically, sometimes as a consequence of newspaper articles that you know have taken a particular turn and God only knows how many times as a consequence of my own inadequacies and mistakes, but each time it comes up as a problem. . There's a two-week period where no one in my family knows if this is the moment where everything is going to hell, where really everything is absolutely certain, well, look at how many people it happens to and see how people respond. I know it doesn't take a huge Twitter mob to chase someone into their hole, how do we chase a company back on their heels?
I mean, it's not like that. For you guys, I mean, what do you think about this? Yeah, I'm just curious, you know, as people, individuals, whether it's me or you or someone wants to build something, you want to have a goal and an objective as you talk and pursue this. They care and they share their opinion They share their voice They have good intentions Maybe someone doesn't like those intentions but having good intentions is how we, as human beings, think about reputation and reputation already matters if someone can try to tear down your reputation. Should we focus on having a good reputation?
Yes, okay and how should we should we should focus more on deserving a good reputation? What does that mean? Don't don't do things that you know are wrong and even if you don't lie, yeah, don't lie, don't be careless, I mean, especially if you see that I'm lucky. I guess I put all my lectures online, so pretty much everything I've ever said to a student is obviously No, but an unbiased sample of everything I've ever said to students is available. Well, it hasn't turned against me and that's hundreds of hours. Well, because I was lucky enough not to have said anything. fatal and you know, maybe it's because I'm careful with my words, I don't want to take too much virtue for myself in relation to that, I know that good luck plays a huge role in how things turn out for people and that You can have bad luck, but you know a rule that I didn't write down is to act so that you can talk about what you do, so there are two domains of lying correctly, so one lie is a statement and the other lie is an action that you know is wrong. you do it anyway, it seems to me that that is becoming more and more risky, right, people don't do that anymore because they get caught, yes, and the consequences are dire, but then you think about this, tell me what you think about this.
One of the things that Carl Jung taught me again was that, as we become more technologically powerful, the quality of our individual morality becomes an increasingly pressing social concern because each of us is much more powerful than we thought. that we were once for good and for evil, and that's why. With this technological prowess comes an associated ethical demand and I see no flaw in that argument. I don't see how that can be anything other than true. If technology multiplies your power, then it multiplies the catastrophic consequences of your own immorality. and if you did something 10 years ago and someone finds out they might come after you, it seems like that's what's happening, there's no doubt that not only could they do it, you'll know it, chances are you'll know it and that's a problem too because , of course. people make mistakes you know, and I'm so glad my teenage years aren't stored on youtube for example, it must have been scary a long time ago, well it must be scary being a teenager now knowing that your nonsense A drunk at a party could become YouTube's next viral video.
I mean, yeah, I was lucky enough to never have been drunk in my life and that was a conscious decision because my brother went to prison for drugs when I was. A boy and I were in a prison visiting room many weekends for many years and witnessed the consequences of doing certain things, so to me I thought, "I don't want to touch any of this. I don't even care if It's like that." I'm going to sell it but I'm not going to take anything and um, but that doesn't mean I didn't do bad things like you know, I cheated, I lied, I stole, you know, I did all these things that I wasn't proud of when I was 10 to 13 years old. until I got caught and thought, "Oh mate, my actions actually affect a lot of people and I remember the shame well, it's normative behavior, I mean if you look at teenagers, imagine there." are teenagers who break rules all the time, including criminal ones, including legal ones, that's fine, but they tend to become criminals, it's too much, but at the opposite end of the distribution are teenagers who don't break any rules and tend to develop internalizing disorders.
Depression, anxiety disorders, that kind of thing, so there are two limitations, so there is a certain amount of exploration of rule breaking, which is a normative part of healthy development, but now you know you can take a part of it, a video of it, a record of. and it is permanent, can you imagine not being able to forget your past, painful, very painful, and not even you forget it, but the world knows your past, sees it or witnesses it? What is your biggest fear with the fame and recognition that you have at the level of what is the biggest fear that you have moving forward oh, that all of that will do something to um, you know that I will betray the people that I know.
I've been talking, you know everyone is insufficient for the challenge in some way, yes, ethically particularly, but more than that, even just physiologically, let's say, that's definitely, did you ever have a goal to impact so many people? That part of your life's mission is I want to reach more people than outside of the classroom and you know, selling five million copies of my books and being as well known as you are, was that ever a mission or was it always just I want to learn? ? and teach and if 10 people see very well if 10 million people see very well you probably knew, when I was working on my meaning mapping book I knew I was looking, I tried, I tried to write about the most serious problem I could find in The most serious way I could handle it and I thought well, if this is a serious problem and I'm addressing it seriously, it's probably a serious endeavor and it's going to have the consequences of that, whatever they may be, and when I started lecturing about it that I had been thinking and learning about the impact was obvious and unique in a sense, I mean, there are my lectures, the most typical response I received from students in my classes was especially in the class of my first book, maps of meaning, It was this course.
I changed the way I looked at everything and I would say life, the world, the universe, God, yeah, or they would say, well, I've learned all these things, I don't know how to talk about them with anyone else, which was the same kind of things. and a lot of the public comments about my work are similar to that, but you know, in a sense, that wasn't a surprise because what I learned changed the way I looked at things completely too absolutely, completely one-handed, as completely revolutionary. in a way and like that and I had a feeling of that from I don't know how many years very young you had a feeling four five you have a song you had a feeling that your life would impact millions of people yeah, yeah, it was kind of like an internal dialogue or an inner calling or something that was is like a dream, yeah, some kind of memory of a dream, that's crazy.
Look, I spoke to Jocko willing the other day, I can't wait to post what it was. It was a good conversation. I had a good conversation with him. He made this immensely tough person a tough guy. He knew that he wanted to be a soldier since he was three years old. Wow, and he said what and don't be thinking. which was for very noble reasons that I like, I mean, it's pretty funny and at this point it's just like, it's like this is my character, this is who I am, it's me and you know, with my kids I can see who are.
Yes they were the same person from the moment they were born, they developed and developed and all that, but it was the development of something that was there, it was bringing something to light. It is shocking and surprising to me constantly and exactly. what I expected at the same time and that seems completely paradoxical, it's like part of me knows and accepts it and the other part is too old and too similar to the way I adapted to it, yes, I saw a clip of an interview of your daughter and your wife together, I think it was on your daughter's podcast and your wife was mentioning something about how you were in love with her for I don't know a period of time, maybe it was years, but she never s

howe

d interest in come back, oh, just glimpses of it, enough to keep me interested, right, but she wasn't going to date you, uh, you know, or get engaged, I guess, or whatever she said until she can tell you what it's like, It's easy, one day.
I went there, I was about 13, I went to her house, she was delivering newspapers and it was her paper route, I had taken over and she was there with one of her friends and my wife Tammy, she was very popular with all the kids. Even when I was in third and fourth grade, there were like 10 of us, it wasn't a very big city and we were all in love with it, yeah, except for one guy who didn't go just out of spite and this is true. I can remember this very clearly anyway. I went there when she was.
She was a friend of mine when I was a kid, but there was always this partly romantic interest, even when we were very young and didn't see each other much when we were around 13. You know, girls mature faster than boys and I was also a year behind. In any case, one day I went to her house to deliver thesenewspapers and she was talking to her friend, a hazel blonde girl, who was also a very attractive girl and they were talking about getting married and, you know, they were a little cynical and smart. In this regard, Tammy told her friend: I don't want to change my name when I get married.
I'm going to have to marry a weakling and she turned around, looked at me, smiled and said, Jordan, would you like to do it? marry wow and I thought and she was playing it like it was a nudge and it was, you know, a genuine nudge, but she knew I liked her and so you know it was one of those barbs that are fun because they're close to the bone, all right. that's where the real humor exists, it's right at that forefront and that was her, she was that provocative um and I told her that story when we decided to get married and I said well, you're tammy

peterson

, not tammy, and so that you know I was last laugh on that story but it took me like 20 years yeah she had mentioned something like you know he wasn't right or ready for me until you were and I don't know her you know that's typical like Tan soon as he discovered that I was attractive to other women because I was vaguely competent, then he exactly went in for the kill, so I'm curious to know what the keys are to building confidence when you're feeling insecure, afraid, or scared. feeling embarrassed, whether it's dating someone or a career or anything else, what are the keys to building confidence so that you attract what you want look, I read some of your biographical history before speaking today and you tell a story about how you were chosen the last and then you compensated for that, yeah, now Alfred Adler, because of the way this psychoanalyst, Freud's associate, built his whole theory around compensation for that kind of inferiority complex plus compensation, but it's adaptive, like They chose you last time, you were very embarrassed, yes.
What did you do? You decided that I'm not going to be me anymore, ever again. Well, now you said you know you adopted maybe two, what an inflexible model of what it meant to be masculine as a consequence, but when I read that. I thought so, but still you're pretty fair, wasn't the new you you adopted wasn't optimal in every possible way, but it was definitely an improvement over the previous year exactly, I wasn't chosen last again, that's for sure , well, exactly, okay. So, so, the first thing I would say is that if you feel insecure and less and embarrassed and all that, you have to take stock and look.
I have an online exercise at selfauthoring.com. There are three exercises, one of them helps you write. the past on the present and another on the future the present authorship program helps you evaluate your faults and your virtues okay, well, if you have some faults and you feel insecure and inferior because of it, well, now you should, it shouldn't be so much. that you are paralyzed by it and are unable to act, you should not hit the ground because you are not all that you could be because no one is and if you hit the ground then you will not be able to get up and improve but you have to differentiate it is okay until what point am I being hard on myself counterproductively critical listening to my father's voice too harsh and angry in my head right, um adopting inappropriate stereotypical representations of male competence how much of myself -Criticism is not advisable and you want to deal with yourself with some care , but on top of that there is the problem of fixing your weaknesses.
You know that if you are ashamed of being ignorant, you will show up at a party. because you know that you claim to have knowledge that you don't have and someone exposes you well, you can get angry with them and you probably will, but in reality they have done you a favor, they have pointed out to you that an insufficiency is a path you can follow. travel down a recognized insufficiency is as soon as a gift in some sense if it's accurate I'm in this because you think well what should I do what should I do with my life that's a really complicated question oh here's an excellent insufficiency you have a plan, you have a goal, now rectify it, you still have to think strategically and figure out how to rectify it and do it step by step, but Carl Rogers, the psychotherapist, pointed out that for therapy to be successful, it is necessary for each person to be successful.
The person has to want to change, so they must have recognized that they have a problem, if the court orders someone to attend therapy, it is very difficult for the therapist to convince them that they have a problem once they are convinced that they have a problem. problem. The problem is like you are far away, you know, I know it is still technically difficult, it requires discipline and all that has no magic solution, but if you are plagued by feelings of inferiority, you must rectify the most obvious inferiorities. Focus on the former, over-optimizing strengths. Would you say no, not necessarily, not necessarily, I am and you don't have to make amends every time I can't, I'm a terrible jazz musician, it's not something that you're ashamed of or you like, well, it's not an impediment, is it?
Yes, I would say that you have to rectify a shortcoming when it is clearly an impediment to your goal or you have to change your goal, but if you are changing your goal due to an impediment related to a shortcoming, then you should ask yourself if it is your desire to change the goal of reliable way or you are just taking the easy way out, you can protect yourself by choosing a different goal that is more difficult and that is a good mental hygiene practice because sometimes you should change goals instead of rectifying deficiencies, but you can fool yourself at that moment and and that is not good and if someone is

lazy

with no goals and is not motivated, they are not sure what they want to do, what would be some key steps to start changing their life or find the motivation for something bigger than what is right. think about it a little bit it can probably be found in you can find it in shame you can find it in guilt you can find it in conscience you can find it in anger you can find it in interest and and commitment and beauty there are many paths if you are angry about something in the world well, you know that it is an indication that that is in some sense your problem, right, he is speaking to you in a moral sense, this should not be like this, well, maybe you are the person who should do it. something about it somehow may take you a lifetime to figure out how to do it, but it bothers you for a reason: negative emotions can be a path to transformation.
I'm not trying to romanticize them, they can crush them. You completely and you are left with nothing, yes, of course, sure, and they can go seriously astray, but it's a shame it's good, what am I ashamed of? Well, can you fix some of that? because you might wonder, let's say you're so embarrassed and so crushed. that you're a nihilist and you don't see any hope in life, you just finished, you might think well, what if I was less embarrassed, like I'm not going to jump off the bridge today, I'm going to wait a year. I'm not going to work on these things that I'm ashamed of and I'll just see if my life gets better enough that I'm not so bitter about it now or so desperate about it.
Now and my experience in general has been that it works, it works and some of the practical knowledge is also like you can go a long way with very small changes, incremental changes, yes, micro habit changes, so aim low, don't have big changes. . Big goals or big transformations, well you can, but the problem with the big goal is that it is daunting enough to paralyze you and there is a high probability of failure, so imagine that you are your own child. Well, now imagine that you love this. boy and you would like us to say it because it's you and me talking about being successful now you have an ideal for this boy you would like him to grow up to be the best he can be better than you the best man he can be I know that's what you want for your child, if the good part of you is speaking, yes, you definitely want him to be better than you, but you want him to be the best he can be if your vision is not clouded, that's fine, but then you offer him a goal it's like we will do it right can you do it right?
If you can do it without thinking about it for a second there is no challenge in it there is no developmental drive it is not in the zone of proximal development you want a goal that you can achieve but that requires some improvement on your part because you want to achieve the goal that satisfies you, but then you want to become something that can achieve goals and that's why you want to try hard, yeah, you want to try a little harder, yeah, yeah, and and and. There's a large psychological literature that suggests that's where peak motivation is interesting, so you're pursuing a goal but you're also pursuing the goal of transforming yourself at the same time you're doing both.
At the same time, do you need to know that you are transforming yourself to achieve the goal or do most people just think I have to take these steps to achieve it but don't realize that they are becoming better human beings? They, depending on what you mean by realized, have the sense of satisfaction and confidence that would indicate that, although they may not be able to make explicit what that means, I would say it would be better to make it explicit, one adds. Another dimension of possible motivation, how do you think people lose trust? We've talked about winning it, but how can someone like you, who has accomplished so much, who has millions of followers, who you know is financially successful, who has a great marriage, how could anyone? losing trust once they've built it illness that will do it that's a form of someone's death loss I mean there are many ways to have the rug pulled out from under you um moral mistake as the stakes rise like We already discussed the consequences increases ingratitude, that's a big one, you can succumb to the temptation to believe in your own selfishness, that's a big mistake, there are many ways things can go wrong, that's for sure, so it seems like you know that we start with a lack of trust. when it's pointed out to us that you're inadequate at this and we go on a journey where you know, we build ourselves up and we overcome challenges and we dive into fear to have these little victories to build confidence and then the more successful we are, the more successful we will be. the more we succumb to losing that trust again uh when a lot no no I wouldn't I wouldn't necessarily say you become more susceptible to that um but you asked how can that happen, how can that happen too I think I think I still I think you know a genuine achievement, but it is ethical.
It is always an ethical achievement. I think that, if so, a genuine ethical achievement is the best source of security, but it is not infallible. When you refer to an ethical achievement, you mean doing something right and good, even if people know it. or not just good and write for yourself is that what I hear you say, or does someone else need to acknowledge that this was good and right? I think if you've done it yourself, that's good, but if you do it and other people will participate and come along for the ride, that's good too and sometimes it's better to bring people with you, um, if it's just a matter of That they recognize it well, that also has value, I mean, you know, people say well.
You shouldn't care what people think about you. Well, of course, psychopaths shouldn't care what people think of them now. You shouldn't care so much about what people think of you that you're willing to lie to maintain whatever. is that you think they value that as there are places beyond which that clearly becomes counterproductive but of course well I mean that I read the comments on YouTube particularly and I pay attention to them and if you know 30 people say something like here is something that I I do and I probably did it to you um when I'm interviewing I interrupt more than a certain percentage of my audience would like to receive those are my comments it's like just letting them talk you interrupt too much so now I try to be quieter more now do you know the joke what it is the knock knock joke who's there the interrupting cow I'm sorry it's a stupid joke, but it's a stupid joke anyway, so you know, I read them and that's what people think and then I think okay, I should probably try to interrupt less? but I get excited and then with zoom there is a delay that makes it harder, but I pay attention and you should pay attention.
I think when you know, I hear a lot of people say don't let other people's opinions stop you. to take action to achieve your goals because I think a lot of people will listen to other people's opinions and be afraid to do something based on someone saying: I told you so or you couldn't do this or you're not good enough how to do it? We overcome those opinions that keep us playing small and that prevent us from putting our creation into the world or doing well, in general it is unlikely that someone else's comment will stop you unless you value that comment, so imagine that you will continue a goal but you are full of doubts, then 40 percent of you have doubts and 60 of you pursue the goal and then five or six people oppose and object using doubts well.
This is going to be very difficult for you, so, how do we overcome it? Part of what that means is that you probably haven't thought it through completely, like what you're doing and why and ifyou have a lot of doubts and they have not been addressed then you are vulnerable at that point and it may be that your goal is not all that it could be and it may be that your strategy is not fully developed and that is why you need to have a conversation with your doubts and take them seriously and see if you can build a goal that you agree with and then a doubt arises because someone criticizes you, it triggers a doubt and you look at the doubt and you think okay, here's the doubt and that's why I do it. what I'm doing you know maybe it doesn't work but then you think but I but this I've thought this through and I thought this through and I thought this through and that all works and then no that that's not going to stop me, you know, so I look and I think, well, I'm, I'm, I'm writing something, why, well, I want to solve this problem, I want to think about this problem, why, well, it's an interesting problem, but it's a problem that a lot of people seem to have, so let's discuss it. and solving it seems to be useful, because the more of us take problems seriously and try to address them and communicate about them, the less problems we will have and the less they will suffer and suffering does not seem to be a good thing unnecessary suffering maybe we could work towards it and maybe that's what you should be doing and that seems to be what's ethical and that's it and you could say you could Say well, what if you doubt that doing the ethical thing is right?
Well, it's not that easy to construct an argument to support the idea that having more unnecessary suffering in the world is good, so I'd say you know you want to stand on firm moral foundations. and people talk about morality all the time this is what you should do or you're a bad person it's arbitrary you know it has this tone of patriarchal tyranny but that's based on a misunderstanding of what morality is it's how you want to be tortured by your conscience, like I mean, how pleasant it is for you to be tortured by your conscience, it's horrible, how horrible, is there anything worse?, unbearable, yes, I don't know if there is something worse, I mean, it's up there with the one you have what to live Yes, as long as you have it, yes, well, I think it's a universal experience, an almost universal experience, so you live ethically when you're not violating your conscience.
Well, there's nothing better than that that might not be good enough. It may not even be good, let's say you make it, things can still come and throw you off, but the purpose of living ethically is so that you have some peace, yes what are they and is it real, yes the torment ethical and and the peace that comes as a consequence sorry, I want to interrupt you no, no problem, what is the biggest doubt you face at this stage of your life and how are you working to overcome it? The biggest doubt I have is whether I can or not.
I'm going to be healthy enough to continue for a long time that's and it's a continuum it haunts me continually continually every second I'm so sick how are you navigating that? um well, with a lot of care and effort, I mean. I mean, I wake up at eight even though it's not, my sleep is not restful at all, um, it's interrupted and I don't know why, so I sleep but it's not restful. They've monitored my sleep, so I'm not going. in a deep sleep I get up at eight o'clock I sauna for 45 minutes I walk seven miles I exercise I write I do my work I follow a very specific schedule and I hope that's what I can manage and that I improve over time, yes, but we'll see , but it's a matter of time all the time.
I have about 14 minutes to be respectful of your time, until you let me know that's all the time we have. so I want to ask a different question and get to the last questions to respect the time and before I ask this question about money and the psychology of money, I want people to make sure they get this book. Order 12 More Rules for Life and be sure to pick up his other book too, which is awesome, 12 Rules for Life and an Antidote to Chaos, but be sure to pick up a copy of this book or a few copies and get I'll Tell You to your friends because it will change your life a lot when you start going through this.
I haven't heard many people talk to you about money, maybe I just missed it and maybe you've talked a lot about it. but I haven't seen it that's good that's good that's good question yes, definitely, I don't want to make assumptions, but if I were making assumptions, university professors are not usually billionaires, yes, I'm fair to say that's semi-accurate but if you're a teacher you're not making millions you're not that financially abundant uh human you may have a good salary but you're not bringing financial abundance to the next level uh and I'm not I'm going to try to guess where you were financially before you became more famous on YouTube, media and book sensation, but I assume you've accumulated a lot more money than you had, say, five years ago.
Have you learned to manage the mentality around the wealth that has come to you? The level of wealth that has come to you. How have you managed it? How do you handle it now? As it keeps coming. I guess more will come. every book and success and what his thoughts were about money before this level of money came. I've never hesitated to be an evil capitalist, but I'll give you an example, so I built this. I told him about this software. online program that helps people write down their past and present and girls' goals for the future.
We tested the future part to see if it worked and it worked pretty well. It was effective and I am selling it. Why don't I give it? good because that's not the right price in pricing decisions money is very, very complicated and pricing is very complicated pricing is value it's like well, it's the right price for something zero good, probably not first of all because it doesn't take zero to do it or sustain it like there is an infrastructure customer service infrastructure where there are people constantly working who could be making new things if you can't sell them what makes you think it's worth anything if you can't sell them what makes you think you have If your communication is correct, you can use the price as an indication of whether what you are doing works if no one is paying for it, maybe it is not good or maybe you are not talking about it correctly, so I wanted to make things that worked like that.
I would work in the market, it was a challenge, there is also the challenge aspect, so I never looked down on money, and for me money was always fine, it was a challenge, that's one thing and for many people who are motivated by money , money actually works. like a challenge it's how can I do more of this it's a competition in a sense like a game um because you might think that they want all the things it's like yeah, sort of no, if you're sensible, you sort of max things out pretty quickly. Can I buy both and use it well and did it?
Yeah and I'm not hedonistic in a way where money would help in any sense, of course, um partly because I'm not 16, you know. I'm 60 years old, so what am I going to do with it? I also learned to be careful what you buy because it's not clear who owns who when you buy something like that. I met this very rich couple and they had like six houses, well, the poor ones. woman, the female member of the couple, all she did was worry about houses like one house was pretty bad because it's always falling apart, six big houses falling apart all the time, oh man, so you know when you think, well , poor thing, she had six houses, it's like Yeah, yeah, I know the problems of rich people, right?
Don't we wish we never had them? Yes, that's fair enough, but there's still a point to clarify there. Yeah, um, I put together a financial team. I had to do it too. I abandoned my oversight of my financial affairs because I couldn't manage them, but fortunately I had put together a team and people stepped in to manage it and that went about as well as could be expected under the circumstances, yeah, like that, um, and that. that's a source of security and I have accountants that do taxes and I hate doing my taxes like everyone else does, but maybe I hate it even more, it seems to bother me a lot anyway, that's one thing having this money has been helpful.
For me it's that I don't have to do my taxes now I have experts who can do it, but I've handed it over to people and I hope it's not too sloppy. Well, like this, for someone who wants to attract more wealth, gain more wealth. make more money, what do you think needs to happen psychologically for them to be able to create that beyond the actions, the resolution of the challenges? Well, a big part of it is discipline, like hard work, what do you work for? 15 more hours? 40 more money, I think that's the data that Warren Farrell accumulated, is part of the reason why men make more money than women because they work a little longer hours, but it actually produces a disproportionate return.
People who make money aim for that, generally speaking, you know. I'm not talking about people who inherit wealth, but it's pretty easy to waste money, you know, even if you inherit it, but if you're not earning it, if you don't have it, you want to earn more, yeah, yeah, well, conscientiousness, which is . duty industriousness order amount of time effort invested that makes a difference it makes a difference I would say that if you are trying to produce a product and introduce it to the market there are things that you should definitely know um the product should work it should be reliable your customer you have to implement your customer service if you despise sales and marketing you're making a big mistake that's casual contempt it's very difficult to sell something almost no one is a good salesperson it's an extremely demanding job and you Can you tell, oh, he's a salesman?
It's like, if you try, yes, no, I wouldn't sell myself well, that's because no one offered you the opportunity to sell yourself, if you have 10 opportunities to sell yourself and you reject them all, it's like a big claim of moral victory until someone until If you are in that position you are simply not of interest that is why you are not selling yourself. You have to understand the market. You have to communicate with your customers. It is complicated and difficult, so don't ignore the necessary components. Right, all these things are important. The product. The engineers. the people who work on it the creative inspiration which is the business goal making the product which is extremely necessary all the communication strategies those are of crucial importance because if you have a product and no one knows about it, then who the hell is going to buy it , no matter how good it is?
So you despise the things that are necessary for your success at the expense of your success, so you have to reframe the way you think about those things. things that you know you have to look at are like sales, okay, well, you're not going to sell anything, so yeah, so that's the end of that problem, or maybe you know you have moral qualms about participating in capitalist enterprise. , well, you know. Good luck carrying that with you, yeah, you know, and if maybe the qualms are well deserved, it's like okay, set aside a percentage of what you make to do something that you know, what would you call it?
It's clearly not self-centered and generous to you you can, you can do that, I mean the products that I'm selling, some of them are what you would say, have less ethical impact than others. I do some marketing, why, um, the marketing of me was going on anyway. You could also do it yourself. Well, I involved my son in this. I thought, well, you know there's a market. People want this. We could also put a genuine place. I mean a lot of the merchandise that is produced is related to. I leave it alone, I let people do that, I don't bother them, I don't chase them if they can make a living, you know, putting my quotes on acrylic blocks or making posters, that's fine with me.
I'm worried, but we have some things, posters and stuff, and people want them, so if they want them, I don't see it doing any harm, you know, you might think it's a little cheap, you know what you know, you know what I'm into. I mean. it's like it's like Disney's philosophy vacation but I'm interested in you I'm interested in communicating with the public this is sales and marketing you know most academic work languishes well I have no contempt for my readers, listeners and viewers I like them, I hope Good luck if you want a poster of the 12 rules and find it useful.
Hey, it's okay, if they find a lobster tie funny. Well, that's fine with me and there's a little bit of "you know." There's a bit of humor in it. and of course I can use that and also my message, a little bit of levity would be wonderful, yeah, where can people go, check out some of your stuff, where's the best place to go? Oh, if you just go to the YouTube channel, there's a little slash underneath, that's JBP merchandise, I mean, it's absurd, there's also that element of absurdity which is a surreal element that I find interesting, ridiculous, disconcerting and hallucinogenic. very very strange everything is fun you know, everything is fun I want everyone to go buy a lobster tie and posters and the book I want everyone to go beyond the order get some copies for your friends I also have two final questions, but first I ask the you ask Jordan, I want to acknowledge you for a moment because I know you've been through a lot and are still going through a lot of pain, challenges and adversity sincethe first time I interviewed you a few years ago until now. and I also know that you went through a lot of pain and adversity with your children, specifically with your daughter and other challenges that have happened in your life, and I recognize you for continually showing up in a time of uncertainty in a time of perhaps a loss of hope in different times in a time of physical pain in a time of continued lack of sleep and non-restorative sleep the fact that you continue to show up and serve is truly worthy of recognition and I am so grateful that you take the time to come on my show and share this knowledge because I know the impact it will have in service of the message and all the work that you are doing for your own content and that of everyone else that you are being.
I'm really grateful that you've decided to continue showing up well, whatever I'm doing for other people, they're certainly doing it for me, so I'm grateful to have the privilege, the immense, amazing privilege of being cared for. It's amazing, you know, um, it's like that, so I don't do whatever it might be, uh, what would you say about sacrificing myself for it? I am earning equivalently. I've had so much support from people it's absolutely amazing, so we appreciate you and you. We are having an impact on our lives and we hope that you are balancing and taking care of your health too, that is the most important thing.
I asked you two questions in the last interview that I would love to ask you again. I'm not. I'm sure you remember them, but I want to see if you have the same or different answers. uh, the only question is hypothetical, it's called my three truths question. I would like you to imagine that many years from now you will be able to choose the last day. on earth for yourself, but eventually you have to leave and you achieve everything you want to create in the world, you see your work come to life, the impact on the family, everything happens and it's magical, right, but for some reason you have to carry everything your work with you. so you have to take beyond the order all your content, your videos, podcast, everything has to go with you to the next place, but you can leave behind three truths, the three lessons, the most important lessons that you have learned in your life and that you would like to share with the world and this is all we would have of your content left behind, what would you see?
What would you say your three truths would be? I would say have the faith strive to manifest the faith necessary to make things better instead of making them worse pray that you are terrified enough to be scared by your own delusion and strive to be grateful regardless of what it is that's good enough yeah , I think one of your rules is to be grateful in suffering, despite it, yes, that is the last rule and the one I have struggled with the most, I would say in the last, especially in the last two years, yes, probably It will be the hardest to find.
Yeah, well, you know people have their reasons. I described them in chapter 11, why are you bitter? well here are the reasons, well those are real reasons, no wonder you know that you hear someone tell you about their life, it is so typical that such frequent catastrophes occur, you know it and yet people move forward positively and It is a miracle, and much of it is seen. that chapter be grateful despite your suffering is really a chapter about, in a sense, faith and courage and it is an act of faith and courage to be grateful because there are reasons not to be grateful and it's like it's a decision and it's not that You make the decision and then you make it, you have done well and then you have it, it is a constant and continuous decision and the temptation not to be ungrateful, to be bitter, is always there and it is convincing, rationally convincing, it is easy, emotionally convincing, Yes, but it makes everything worse.
Oh, it's so true, it's so true, it's like eating candy, you know it tastes good for a moment and then you feel bad for hours, so you said you had three questions, this is my last question right now, okay? so my last question is what is your definition of greatness, the ability and ability to express and respect beautiful truths. Jordan Peterson. Thank you so much. Make sure you get the book unordered. Subscribe to Jordan's podcast on YouTube everywhere else online and Jordan. It's been a pleasure my friend, thank you so much for being here, thank you so much for the invite and thank you to everyone watching and listening, much appreciated if you're looking for more greatness in your life, be sure to check out this video here and also. check out our free pdf, the three secrets to unlock the power of your mind and help you change your life, download it right here, the lesson I learned from her is: do it now, stop talking, only do it if you don't . have an excuse then you shouldn't waste your time

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