Shields and Brooks on Warren's farewell, Biden's surge

JUDY WOODRUFF: And now, to help make sense of a decisive week in the race for the Democratic nomination, here are Shields and Brooks. They are syndicated columnist Mark Shields and New York Times columnist David Brooks. Hello you two. MARK SHIELDS: Judy. JUDY WOODRUFF: So the Earth shifted on its axis, or at least the Democratic Party, so did the Democratic primaries, David. We had South Carolina, we had Super Tuesday, we had four presidential candidates drop out, or maybe more than that. What happened? DAVID BROOKS: Oh, I've never seen anything like that. It was -- in the 48 hours after South Carolina, polls were moving so fast that some pollsters were saying polls that were 12 hours old were outdated.

And it was a spontaneous movement of millions of people across the country, from different demographic groups, who came together and came to the same conclusion: It has to be Joe Biden. And I think why they didn't do that six or four weeks ago, first, Super Tuesday forced a lot of voters to make a decision at once. Second, you performed a surprising political act of altruism. Amy Klobuchar could have won Minnesota and it would have been a nice decoration for her hat. and she said, no, that would be selfish. And Pete Buttigieg did the same. And then, frankly, there was a party establishment that did the right thing.

But the most important thing were the grassroots voters who simply... looked at reality. And like a community, a community is more than just a group of individuals. A community, people have common values. They feel each other's movements. And I don't really see the Democratic Party acting as a community, moving all at once. JUDY WOODRUFF: What did you think? MARK SHIELDS: Wow, that was good, David. (LAUGHTER) MARK SHIELDS: African American voters are the most strategic voters in the Democratic Party. They are not very given to empty gestures. And they want to recall Donald Trump more than any group in the electorate.

And they saw in Joe Biden a means to achieve it, and the instrument, and they saw in Bernie Sanders an obstacle to achieve it. And they saved the Democratic Party. JUDY WOODRUFF: In South Carolina, you mean. MARK SHIELDS: In South Carolina. They redeemed him. And I don't disagree with the points David raised. They are good. But I think Donald Trump is the key to this. Donald Trump inspired, organized and galvanized Democrats. The thought of hitting him became more than just a concern or interest. It is an overwhelming passion. You can see it. Late deciders, as David was talking about, those polls changed, 40 percent of people in North Carolina who decided late voted for Joe Biden.

Forty percent decided, they overwhelmingly leaned toward Joe Biden. Same thing in Virginia, across the board. It was a very practical position. There is a difference between an ideologue and a pragmatist in politics. An ideologue believes that the right thing works. A pragmatist believes that what works is what is right. And the Democrats were pragmatic in those elections. JUDY WOODRUFF: When we were here at this table a week ago, Democratic voters were still struggling, David, with what to do. They were almost paralyzed with indecision. Something changed. DAVID BROOKS: Yeah. I think it was... well, part of it was South Carolina, where it seemed so strong, but actually, I think it was Super Tuesday.

I guess I thought the Democrats had made a big mistake by putting all these states in so early in the process. But it turned out that they simply accelerated people's decision-making. So the fact that at that point 38 percent of the delegates had been selected meant they couldn't wait. And they had to make a decision. And what had been happening for the previous month was that they were floating. And then there were people: Warren was awake for a while. Buttigieg did well in Iowa. And they were just testing people. And then they said, Okay, make a call.

And so I'm thinking... I mean, Bernie Sanders' people are hoping there's another twist to this story. Personally, I think that's unlikely, partly because we're going to some states where Biden's lead, like Florida, is huge, partly, even in Michigan, where Sanders won last time, he's not doing as well this time. . with working class voters like he did last time. And both Michigan... even Michigan becomes a more difficult state for him. JUDY WOODRUFF: I want to get to Michigan in just a second. But, Mark, meanwhile, it's not just Buttigieg and Klobuchar who dropped out. Michael Bloomberg, who spent, as we've all said, $500 million on this race, dropped out, and then, as we know, Elizabeth Warren yesterday.

How do you evaluate the decisions they made? MARK SHIELDS: Well, I mean, obviously, it's the hardest decision. It's a tough decision for anyone to run for president, knowing that virtually everyone who runs loses. But it's an even tougher decision to end a campaign. I mean, that's saying publicly that I lost. I have been defeated. Michael Bloomberg apparently did it almost analytically. There was no way forward. There was no way. He had a premise, which was the crater and collapse of Joe Biden. And that stopped. And if that had continued, apparently it would have been an alternative.

The other problem with Bloomberg, frankly, was that he didn't live up to his campaign. His campaign was much more compelling and interesting than he was. And the second... JUDY WOODRUFF: You mean the ads for him. You were saying the ads about him, right, right. MARK SHIELDS: The announcements of him... that he was a person. He was just a... he was a very boring and uninspired candidate, when you saw him on that stage. The other mistake he made (and he didn't think about it at the time) was on August 5, 2012, when he hosted a fundraiser at his Upper East home for a Massachusetts Republican senator named Scott Brown.

Scott Brown was being confronted by Elizabeth Warren. There's an old saying in Massachusetts: Don't get angry, get even. She got both. She got angry and retaliated. She kneed him. She never recovered. That was... Elizabeth Warren is another case. But go ahead. Let's leave it to David, but I'll be happy to discuss it. JUDY WOODRUFF: Yes. MARK SHIELDS: I think she's a mystery to me. I mean, she... I thought she was a phenomenal candidate. I really did it. I mean, she had great energy. JUDY WOODRUFF: And she was leading last October. MARK SHIELDS: She was leading. JUDY WOODRUFF: Right.

MARK SHIELDS: She could have...she made a mistake. She was honest. I think she made a mistake by supporting Medicare for all. But then she was honest about paying for it. And that... if you're Medicare for All, you have to be a purist and not get into... like Bernie doesn't get into how it's paid for. Once she got into the weeds with that, she lost the purity of it and I think she stumbled too. JUDY WOODRUFF: How do you see Elizabeth Warren? DAVID BROOKS: Well, there are a few different candidates here. First, Biden, I want to mention one thing: he is a legislator, so he can build coalitions.

And that is being president. And with these other candidates, or even Jim Clyburn, he was going to come up and say, would you support me? And Bernie Sanders never made those calls or didn't have the set of relationships that Joe Biden has. So that is important in a president. At Bloomberg I began to think: you can't buy the ticket, the votes in a presidential election. There are too many free media. Good ads don't. And I think there's a lot of political science evidence that advertising, especially in a high-profile campaign, just doesn't work. And Biden... I mean, Bloomberg didn't help himself in the debate, but I don't think the ads are enough to get votes.

And finally, in the case of Warren, I think the demographics are clear. She didn't have a big gender gap. She had a huge educational gap. And the people who supported her were college-educated people who saw this very intelligent, high-planning person that she taught at Harvard Law School. And she never, wasn't, grew up in Arkansas or Oklahoma. And that side of her didn't come out. Actually, when you meet her, she seems like a very smart Harvard Law professor. And a lot of people just didn't relate. JUDY WOODRUFF: So speaking of - just pivoting quickly, Mark, to the challenges now facing Biden and Sanders, Michigan next Tuesday.

David just brought it up. What are the challenges that Bernie Sanders and Joe Biden have right now? MARK SHIELDS: Well, Joe Biden, first of all, is Judy, and it's a challenge for anyone running for president, and that's to sit down and tell it to the American people in two minutes, not to mention his opponents. name, not to mention Bernie Sanders or Donald Trump, why he should be president of the United States. Joe Biden has told us that he is not Donald Trump or Bernie Sanders. But I'm not sure anyone really understands what a Biden presidency would be like, other than Donald Trump.

And we saw the limits of a campaign that wasn't Donald Trump in 2016. So I think that's the first thing. There has to be, whether it's the lifting of a dream of driving, or two things that he wants to accomplish in his first four years and how he's doing it, I think it's necessary. JUDY WOODRUFF: Let me interrupt you. Has Joe Biden done that? DAVID BROOKS: I agree with Mark. He has to tell the Trump people, the people who support Trump, and the people who support Sanders, to do it for a reason. Something is not working for them.

But I have an answer for you. You basically have to say that with a set of specific policies. JUDY WOODRUFF: And Sanders. MARK SHIELDS: And I think Bernie's problem is a constitutional problem, personally. Bernie is not looking for allies. He doesn't seem to get bigger. It seems that he has to pass a trial by fire. I mean, it's the Bernie brothers. I mean, if you don't agree 110 percent, and I think you do, he's not a coalition builder. He is a lone eagle. He is a lone wolf. That is his strength and also his biggest disadvantage. JUDY WOODRUFF: That's his point about not reaching... reaching... (CROSSTALK) DAVID BROOKS: Right.

And I think this race only really changes if Biden really looks fragile in a debate, if he really gets crushed in a debate. I think that's the... if he's going to change, it's going to be because, oh, he's too old for that. JUDY WOODRUFF: We'll see. Again, Michigan is next week. Bernie won big last time, in 2016. We'll see. MARK SHIELDS: Bernie is doing worse in every state this year than he did four years ago. JUDY WOODRUFF: That he four years ago. We will see this on Tuesday. And then there's the next week and the weeks after that.

Finally, and very quickly, the coronavirus is spreading throughout the world. It is spreading throughout the country. Every few hours, we hear about another city or another state, David, where it will be affected. How is this president, this administration leading in terms of instilling confidence in the American people? DAVID BROOKS: Well, we saw... we had the report on the Atlantic story that had very few people getting tested. That seems terrifying to me. The most important thing is to give honest information that does not seem political. And this happens to be an area of ​​government where we have very qualified people.

Debbie Birx, who has been with Obama appointee Anthony Fauci. Francis Collins, director of the NIH, was another Obama: he simply put those people in charge. Take Mike Pence and especially Donald Trump off the air, because he seems hyperpolitical. JUDY WOODRUFF: And... MARK SHIELDS: It's a time, Judy, when you want the president and the leaders to be measured, thoughtful, reassuring, fact-based and informative. And whatever Donald Trump's strengths are, they are not based on facts. It is not based on reflections and measurements. You saw it in his initial inclination, it's a hoax, it's the press's fault, it's the Democrats' fault, politicizing it, and in some ways it's a threat to the Dow Jones, which is a threat to re-election.

I mean, we never got into the issue of public health. And I think it would be better if he retired and let others speak for the country. JUDY WOODRUFF: I mean, David, you've raised questions about what the current mortality rate actually is, about how many kits are available. He was criticizing Governor Inslee. DAVID BROOKS: He attacked Inslee. Yeah, I mean, he's just out of control. He is like a sick person. But... and this is the moment when you really need confidence that the people have the health of the country and not their own political health. JUDY WOODRUFF: But no, they're not going away, Mark.

I mean, the president and vice president will still appear on television every day. MARK SHIELDS: No. But, Judy, you're on TV, but you're on TV... you're on TV discussing this, I mean, or do you disagree? I mean, the problem with Donald Trump is that he can't differ, I mean, from Francis Collins or Tony Fauci or people who really know, because they're not conveying his message. I mean, I really think he hurts himself doing it. And it's almost Kellyanne Conway, counterintuitive, counterfactual, or what was that phrase? JUDY WOODRUFF: Alternative facts. MARK SHIELDS: Alternative data. I mean, that's what we're dealing with now.

JUDY WOODRUFF: Mark Shields, David Brooks, thank you. DAVID BROOKS: Thank you. MARK SHIELDS: Thank you.