Hamburger Hafen: Bürgermeister versteht Bundesregierung nicht | Markus Lanz vom 30. November 2022

Would you currently advise companies based in Hamburg to invest in China? I think German companies have to think twice. Investing abroad is always a risk and how difficult the development of China will be in the coming years Mayor, we have a little money what is left is this gigantic market 1.4 billion people this is the potential this is the future we need to expand should we invest i would advise you to talk to those i have already invested in china that there has been a lot of investment from Europe from Germany in China in recent years and the reports from the companies that are there that I hear in Hamburg are that there has in fact been a development over many years that is going in a problematic direction that is not a new phenomenon my impression is that in recent years people have been too uncritical of China and now the mood has turned a bit opposite and we should advise you that you don't approach a number of companies in Hamburg that have overseas locations in China that are springing up on the street, that's very good. opportunity to do business there a few years ago, but then the control and influence of the Chinese government and the technical part became more strict and there are also risks to the operation of production facilities, for example, who is afraid who has what concerns who wouldn't, it's about saying overnight that there's going to be a new rule, so I'll give you an example of a new environmental regulation being decided and then the announcement comes overnight that this now has to be observed and otherwise the factory hammers have to be squeezed, that means very, very strict specifications I have heard that companies can better report that members of the Communist Party suddenly appear in factories and have a say in corporate strategy So the conditions are more difficult than they were a few years ago and what happened do you think of the Chinese investors in Hamburg about the situation in China?

I talk to Chinese who know China well but who have also lived in Hamburg for a long time, for example they report that conditions are getting more difficult but from here they also have a better understanding of how the Chinese see the world and how they see Europe and there is already a consistent response that says or a consistent report that it is also getting more difficult for the Chinese who live here but keep in touch with their families in China, it's already a time when it's getting stricter and that's why the discussion that's going on right now is that we have to think about our strategy, how we can reduce the dependencies, where are the critical dependencies. and knowing everything you know what is the next question if you are going to ask me what influence China has in our port the answer is no influence I would like to ask you if you know all that they describe everything so precisely why is that the idea of ​​leaving Chinese investments in the port of Hamburg now emerges from all time, that is something we have considered very carefully, it is all over Europe in all European ports, so that is an argument in favor of letting them do it. just tell me the big shipping companies we have five big ones all over the world one of them is from China the other four big shipping companies are European shipping companies and these big shipping companies have developed their business model in recent years in such a way that they are involved in the Rotterdam terminals in Antwerp not yet in Hamburg we only have one shipping company that has been involved so far, but people and we have found that in the business models of shipping companies, the cargo is taken where the talk is purely in the terminal and in this case it is about Rotterdam and Antwerp they have had all the talks here in the port for many years and we will start now before we get to Mrs Krüger and then also Mr Bachmann how many actions in the Chinese ports hapag -loud has, but God, the people have no participation in Chinese aid, now they are involved in other South America, for example in China, that is a business decision, but going back to your question, which was also discussed here in the last few weeks, the European shipping companies like March, for example, are likely to have participation in Chinese appointments now how much I have not counted that now what are several there is another Hamburg Süd, for example, also a large logistics company, the Chinese holdings have unfortunately not merged with haferdress in the meantime, but in the Danish shipping company in the first so if the new the new Großräderei Merz and thus have a direct participation in terminals in China is Mrs.

Krüger when you hear that it all sounds like a harmless investment and a venture argued higher than they have everywhere by the way also detailed the reasons why there is a minority stake in the port because the occasionally said minority stake thought ne but it was from the beginning 35% yes its minority stake and but 35% for what is rightly said to be a minority stake but for the majority stake it is still the municipal hand and the holding company is everyone's excuse also a majority stake Hamburg but in this sense it is ensured that there are no business decisions that go against the interests Questions 35 and now 24.09 on 9 24 the federal government made a condition that Hamburg did not intend, rightly in my opinion not but I think that the participation of 24.9% is a good solution it is important she 35 with an opinion of that it has been business negotiated between the Haller of our terminal company that operates several terminals and operates that is her she her Havel is that yes the port is Hamburg anyway yes the operation of the port has been business negotiated nothing to do with it , but the dates of the Haller company is a public limited company and the government wants business decisions to be made there, in this case, according to the foreign trade law, the federal government must approve said participation determined that This is not a participation in a critical infrastructure, but a minority participation that can be approved, that is, 35% have not approved it.

The federal government and six ministries explicitly opposed that, we now know that Mr. Lindner has made public statements. as FDP minister it is a very reasonable investment and it is not about investing in a critical infrastructure because a Federal Minister for Economic Affairs and Deputy Chancellor said here last week that he would not do it yet and I would like to say who knows the Port. from Hamburg and who knows the business model of containerlogistik knows that this is a very justifiable participation that has no influence on companies, just a use yet, so if all this can have an influence, then you don't have to, no, because it simply allows your sensible business decision to reduce the cargo Hamburg receives and this allows our port, which, as is well known, has now been recognized as important in Germany, to become efficient and commercially successful because we have been in a competitive position with Rotterdam and Antwerp for 20 years and I don't know how long of course costs have also been involved is Mrs Krüger so cosco's share in Rotterdam and Antwerp is also less than 20 percent so it is even lower than if it is almost 20 percent and once i think about the merger now the consideration is the port of hamburg believes that cosco is involved and will direct the flows there that is the idea, so that there is growth, but that is the way cosco has laid out a ring across europe and is really involved in a lot of aid and therefore gets information which is extremely important maybe it's not about veto rights at all but should knowing the business model and getting really inside information and therefore also pitting the locations against each other. and at the end of the story it may be that no more merchandise will come to hamburg but for that reason unless it is a very rare perspective in this case there is no data that a shipping company obtains more or less through a terminal participation of the shipping companies, since whether they have a time stake or not they get the data from our HPa that they need to drive to the port to get back out and the stake itself does not lead to access to critical data or the like but you have a right to the information but of course, if you are involved in something, for example, after the GmbH establishes there, you have information rights, so it is also decided that you are a terminal operating company and not the actual critical data that may be related to Haller's strategy. are the hallers the haller board has carefully considered this and negotiated it in such a way that the cargo linkage at this terminal is one of several in hamburg is secured in the same way that the other ports are also pursuing as a strategy and without strategic influence neither in the corridors nor especially in the port as a whole we can send the map to the director we just saw it's quite impressive it's the ring Mrs Krüger you just described you can see very clearly how many ports only in Europe or around the Mediterranean Chinese SOEs now have 100% stake Piraeus is also interesting Genoa and Trieste are currently expanding with the help of other Chinese SOEs which means there will be more questions in the future about this help and I have a idea why Peter Changer, as the mayor of Hamburg said, if we don't agree to that, at some point we will drown simply because how many of the containers in the port of hamburg come from china every third about every third that's already a bet that means we have a high risk act if you don't act for whom the whole of Europe has been a big problem that's the distribution I'm doing on the offer that you can't refuse well it's like other wheelhouses that's why I'm also open to for other shipping companies to participate in Hamburg because it makes sense for shipping companies, like Hapag Lloyd and Nase and others, to work efficiently knowing that they have secure contact points and can plan their cargo to these ports, we are talking about participation of Chinese SOEs here please let's show the map again everyone this aid was once in public hands or is it still mostly there and then we say it's not strategic in a way it's China is the biggest maritime power in this planet is important cosco a strategy the difficulties that they do all the way specifically how the federal government established that it is not 35 but only 24.9% because they are under this critical minority participation of 25% you have to ask the federal government I know you talked to they, yes, but my impression is that from there there was an improbable discussion between the ministries there, general statements were made from there, china is a systemic rival, so please, that's not bad, but you should not direct this important discussion using incorrect examples that's my point there's a lot we have to think about but in shipping when you're moving containers around the world we don't have a systemic dependency on China anymore in a lot of other areas and I would say again that the other big shipping companies Hapag Lloyd mask are also strategically involved in the world in overseas terminals we have terminals but hardly any in China March also have them in China and I would also say as an investment as a company of course you have to check if you risk investing abroad.

Mr. Bachmann lives in the US or works there teaches there are there also Chinese holdings in ports in America Los Angeles is, for example, yes, but it must be said that the Americans have of course been making an industrial policy much stricter towards China recently and they are becoming US citizens so to speak, he has threatened to expatriate her if she continues to work for Chinese semiconductors. manufacturers then the Americans are now boycotting Huawei technology because, interestingly, a much tougher strategy of ASML banned machines takes exactly this company from the Netherlands, one of the most valuable but unknown companies in the world that we Americans run for get these transistors. billions of chips in chips the size of a fingernail, only they can do that and then the Americans come and say don't sell them to the Chinese if there aren't too many problems, let it be clear that there is their power. outside of me I would also say take a step back on cost I would also say if you look at this stake with a very narrow lens and then with the stake reduced I would also be more relaxed to be honest I would actually be more concerned with the investments that German companies are now making in China because there is an obvious asymmetry because the Chinese involvement is what we are, so to speak, in German legal circles, if China possibly assumes that China would now attack Taiwan, then of course , we would have options for sanction, that means that in the first place they made me undertake our legal journeys in ourdependency which is exactly the opposite with investments that German companies make in China if things get critical then this investment might have to be canceled and then you can calculate that politics will also be addressed and bells will be called so to speak let's remove it and it's a bit of a broad political look at the circumstances of the whole thing, but I found it remarkable.

On the one hand, a Federal Chancellor who basically acted as the Deputy Mayor again was my impression of that against his Minister, on the other hand, he pushed through his secret services and then the question is really the point in time, the point in time also with Russia and the constellation and, thirdly, it is exactly this strategic decision, one could have done that, but I wonder what the Port of Hamburg is doing, what the federal government is doing. is doing that you can just do something on the European issue in Brussels at the latest now as an opportunity to say, folks, we actually want to keep doing it like this, let the others play the game or there could be a European coordination mechanism that's then appropriate if the stake is already there, let them say what they can do strategically against them, i.e. take the Chinese money but use it strategically against them if worst comes to worst, and then I wonder what all done at the same time, I think it is an important point and if we have to establish a new strategy for China, in fact we will do it on a European basis and we cannot impose the rules of the game in one port and say that all the others are going to continue with what is It is customary in the sector, I just want to say that we were critical ten years ago and said that Hapag Lloyd must be prevented from falling into Asian or Chinese hands, for example, so we as a city joined the protests of all the opposition in Hapag Lloyd and we are glad we did because we are certain that hapaklord is actually a Chinese shipping company today and that's why we don't have to pay attention to this superficiality because someone is buying a share in a company, we have to think about what exactly is our response to the Chinese Silk Roads strategy and I've been talking about that for a few years, by the way, because what we see here with the investments in the port area, we also have an infrastructure and that's why it's good that this discussion carry out in Germany where they say yes we have chip production workshops for example sold to 100 percent Chinese owners, also in Hamburg you can definitely see what kind of chips are tall. technological chips that are used in the automotive industry, for example, when did survival happen a few years ago and they already existed there?

Mayor, I don't think so, but I just want to say that we weren't critical for many years and we should, therefore, if we're going to have a discussion like this, we should do an analysis of where we are critically dependent and that affects certain products, certain industries. , it certainly affects the network that we do as well. Yes, with the Silk Road strategy in China you see that they are gaining structural and systematic access to world markets and we have left everything to the play of forces, if you will, and like the city of Hamburg have been partly hampered by European competition law to our port railway a bit, so we have to have a discussion in Europe about how we can better position ourselves strategically and we need me to always say that I can give an answer strategic to the Silk Roads of China now says that now the people of Hamburg have said because the others have to do it we don't understand either now maybe we still have to increase participation and in the end the result is that everyone is becoming more and more more dependent on China and that's why there's coordination because then they can actually do it right away, but the question that I've had in my head the whole time was if they tried to call their European colleagues and the deputy mayor responsible there and I found out that the lieutenant As mayor I was very surprised by the discussion that is taking place in Germany because of course she herself explained to Belgium that there is of course this cost sharing in Belgium as well as in all other shipping companies.

March MSC CMA. Please, Denmark is, as far as I know, but really a democracy that is not dependent on China. my what is my message we are in fact in the volume of trade we are of course now with this large with this large container comes from China they are a little dependent not only a third of the containers we have a high export and a high import from China and that is why we are very economically linked with this great economy in Europe and in Germany which is Mrs. Krüger, you wanted that the decisive thing is really the great See everything and see that Hamburg is actually a piece of the puzzle as a whole and I am not at all surprised that the other mayors of the port cities are surprised, we have the same plans as they do, they have the same hopes as they do and the problem is yes, the fact that China is buying European infrastructure as a whole, for For example the port of Piraeus which is a very important gateway for China into South East Europe and rail links are now being built there, China is really investing in the infrastructure to really control the entire supply chain for the decisive A Unlike Hamburg, in Hamburg we don't sell any infrastructure, well, the roads, the bridges, the rails, the roads are 100% urban, the operation of having is 100% that we have, that's why there is a difference with Piraeus, this port. it was only born and made big through Chinese investments, that's what Trieste is getting big, that's exactly what you can see everywhere in the world when they say it's not about rails and cranes etc.

It was stated that it is about that and that is why you have to say that we have we have

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it is about dates and I can confirm with you that we do not have data just any crane the head of our port is an IT expert and we have the best cyber security that you can have in the port that exists through a stake in a terminal there is no different data flow compared to the wheels on which they get the data that they have before and after the stake and that goes for everyone the other speeches in so Hamburg is a great traditional help, okay, why do that?

It was another topic because pureus, very specifically, China invited, if you will, to build infrastructure there in the triple-digit million range under German pressure all over the place. They have always done it and that is a different constellation in the port of Hamburg or in Rotterdam or a horse with the case ok so the simple question is do you think why are the Chinese doing that I think they need and want to ensure access to the world markets its great economy on its own is not as strong as a good connection to world markets and for the same reason we have to make sure that as the fourth largest economy in the world we also have export and import is that too we maintain this access, that's why the port of Hamburg is of national importance it's not that we only have a small view on the ports of Hamburg and Germany to be precise and that's why it's important that we can work efficiently that the federal government is now engaged we have a lot of problems we need branded currency cool we need administration we need the german federal government and i am pleased that the discussion now has resulted in the federal government taking more care of the port than ever before six ministries all saying no secret services saying no Don't do that European partners saying don't do that Americans saying don't do that the federal chancellor telling me 35 percent don't do that don't do that when in doubt everyone has no idea we all have no inside knowledge about the question of how we organize our port and I can tell you that we, as a city, have passed on the internal findings, we are a little active there has been that everyone did not want to know not involved in the procedure is that it has real effects of this history.

No, I'm just noticing that you're also a distraction from the core discussion, so to speak, we need to look at strategy. We need a China strategy. We still have to analyze where we depend. we are critically dependent but we are not in container transport. Now I'll leave the story alone, but still the question, how did you convince Scholz to simply lobby six ministries? I didn't convince him of that, he did it half a year ago. he asked how far along this approval really is because it was published a long time ago, that's right, try it a year ago.

And I can only say that you have to be careful, yes, a year ago, well something happened, that is precisely why it is now, so to speak, in what is called stream is the moment that two years ago nobody talked about The fact that China had a great threat is that German policy could not face everyone. He promoted part of the Silk Road initiative. Then on February 24th a whole new discussion broke out in Germany which I think is good and right but it's not based on a wrong example of the participation Couscous in this terminal is a wrong example it's quite frankly undermining so that a structure is not allowed