EAM S Jaishankar Speaks On 'Bharat's Global Power Play' At Republic Summit With Arnab Goswami

deltajl first of all it is a true privilege to share the stage with you and I want to thank you you are a man of very measured words sometimes a man of few words you have been the diplomat par excellence and now you are in politics and you are the Union Finance Minister , about the Foreign Minister and everyone who knows the day he took over as Foreign Minister, knows Dr. Jason Kurd very well, there was so much applause for you because seeing a professional occupying this position gave him many people in this country with immense pride and also because those who knew you were very happy that you have returned. business you belong to, so first of all, congratulations on being sworn in as Foreign Minister of India and thank you for coming to our Republic

summit

.

Thank you so much. Let's give the Foreign Minister a round of applause and let me say that he is a It's not very often that we get the opportunity to appear on stage with the Foreign Minister and a number of issues. My first question for you, mr. Minister, his comment is enough on the topic of our

summit

, which has been deliberately worded as Barrett's

global

power

. State his initial thoughts on the topic itself. First of all, let me say that it is a great pleasure to be here, a singular pleasure to be with you. I know that, honestly, I was very glad that that was the title that you had given it because there is a phrase in our Constitution from very early on about India being a part, okay, India being a part of India being a part and India being a part Bharat.

In reality it was an issue that was debated in the Constituent Assembly, do you know what we are? And it had to do with our traditions and history and, above all, with our identity and our self-perception. Now, in a way, I would say that yesterday we celebrated Constitution Day. Now, one idea that I think in a sense should be a debate among all of us is that, after 70 years, India has become, in some ways, more Bharat, you know, and more Bharat in the sense that, As democracy has taken root, it has gained greater acceptance. better results today if you look at whether they are our leaders in enlargement, I mean, even if I look at a service that I was a member of for 40 years, the Foreign Service is not the foreign service that I joined 40 years ago, you have people Coming from a Much broader spectrum, yes, and it covers practically the entire profession, so if you look at the private sector, I dare say you look at the media, that would also be true, so what has really happened in these 70 ? years, you know, as we have progressed, everything that we have believed in we have practiced to a large extent, the result has actually changed who we are and in some ways we are more Bharat, we are more true to our roots, we express ourselves in a different way. different ways. the ways in which you know it shows in the way we dress the way we speak the languages ​​we use you know again a point that was raised yesterday in the central chamber of Parliament which is use your language you know whatever your language is you mother tongue the other Indian languages ​​that you know and I think it's also being reflected in foreign policy so you know our sense of who we are is starting to appear on the world stage and I would say that in some ways we have moved on from the era of the argumentative Indian to the era of the authentic Indian and I think the world and the world recognizes that, that's a really brilliant quote, so you know, and I think that saying sets the theme here, today in 2019 we are aware of who we are .

We have always been proud of who we are, but we are not afraid to tell people how proud we are of who we are and this manifests itself in many ways as well. Often, dr. Jay Shankar used the accents analogy that we love our own accents, now there was a time when we were imitating someone else's accent, now we proudly say that we probably speak better English than the English themselves and probably our accent is better, sorry . me with a better ax with a better accent exactly how we are, we are assertive because we are far away and I think I agree with you everywhere, this agitation is happening everywhere, even in the media, we would not be here as a network if it were like that it doesn't happen dr.

Jay Shankar, there is a feeling that because of this, there is also a changing perspective today on India and let me know your perspective now, for example, the China policy that you know that led to the Sino-Indian war of 1962 to Now, 57 years later, External Affairs Minister Jaishankar talks about how the equations between India and China are equal parts collaboration and competition. What a long way we have come in these 57 years, isn't it from a time when Prime Minister Manmohan Singh spent just 40 minutes in the White House with George Bush and said that the people of India love them dearly, because You know, at a time when the purest president is making an unscheduled visit to listen to Prime Minister Narendra Modi at the UN climate action summit, we have actually come a long way and I feel proud, I feel proud, so , what's up with that change, dr.

Jasion, can you have seen that you have such a long career? You know you've been all over the world. That is produced? Is it a change of strategy? If so, can you explain it in more detail? Well, look, I think. Like all changes, there are changes in fundamentals, but changes in fundamentals are sometimes not enough on their own. When I say fundamental changes, obviously, we are a much larger economy today and it wasn't something that happened overnight, I saw it. It was a gradual process over 25 years. The fact that we are a nuclear-armed

power

makes a difference.

You know that today too, for people who kind of grew up with it over the last 20 years, it's a reality, but for those who before the '98 generation, you know, a lot of us never thought we'd actually cross that particular Rubicon. , so if you look, I would say that there are a variety of themes that I mean to me and this is both fundamental and an image because I'm going to tell you, one is fundamental, one is the image and the other is finally the tactics and how you

play

with the cards you have because if you're not a sure

play

er I can give you the best hand and I can have a lousy hand and I would still beat you at a teen party any day, so a big part of that is the ability to play that game too, so if you start with the fundamentals, I think the economic fundamentals have been very weak, you know, they've been developing for quite a long period.

I think you have had the fundamentals of national security, you have made decisions that overall have helped you, sometimes these are decisions that are imposed on you. I mean, Cargill, for example, was not a wool person, you know, it wasn't a choice, it was a compulsion, but nuclear power. The test was a choice that crossed that particular and addressed that challenge. So I think, in my opinion, a big part of it was your technological strengths that you have made yourself relevant to the world today. You know if you ask me, where was your a turning point that I could say, well, you know, some of that was maybe ninety-two, some of that was ninety-eight, some of that was y2k, you know you came in in the mind of the world like the Indians, the Indian is a technology person, you know, so the

global

technician, I think was a very important part of this.

So I would also say that somewhere what has changed in the last few years is the ability to use that confidence to use that hand, use it, yes, use a plate. to assert yourself on the basis of your cloud, well, it's kind of a combination that you know would be, for example, the ability to step forward when something goes wrong in your neighborhood, so when you were the first one in, when it happened the Nepal earthquake or when the Yemen Civil War happened or if there is a natural disaster in Sri Lanka or Myanmar, you know that is one type of message and the other is if you have a very complex global negotiation and you are willing to be the party that you are willing to negotiate things and because you are or even Pakistan, for example, you know that we are, but that is also changing, why not, we are no longer a docile country, we are facing Pakistan head on, so Let me drive that change and talk to you. on Pakistan, how much of that approach has changed qualitatively and quantitatively, there is a general change in our policy in Pakistan, you know from a relatively timid response after 26/11, it was a Koi response to the strong measures against the Bala code and the Bala cotton.

It's the surgical strike against people who use terrorism as part of the state machinery, which has caused this dramatic change in their point of view, well, I think it goes back in some ways to the parrot observation, it goes back to that. because we have started to think about what is of my interest, but you know what I am thinking for myself. I'm not thinking about what the world will say about me if I do this. How would you look at other people? So, are you feeling self-conscious? Did you feel self-conscious before? Well, see, the fact was that after 26/11 there was a lot of debate, yes, and not much after, yes, in fact, I would even tell you, just look at the debate about Pakistan about Pakistan in our country, yes, okay , what was the debate on Pakistan? the Pakistan debate was so should we talk to them and how should we talk, you know, it was about that, that's the debate in Luo Tian, ​​that's the luteinizing debate, since you brought me to it, now let me move on and I want to ask you, let's talk about you, tell the narrative of the debate, the people, whatever the legal fraternity, but mainly also the role of the media, the media became a crucial agent in these times, there was a war of information everywhere.

I saw him first and after shooting wama and bellacourt. when the tweets were flying with fake news and it was like a fake news factory that was in operation, then in your opinion, what was the role of the media at a time when national security, you know, national security? national state can be threatened by powers beyond the physical? borders, so do you think this was a section of the media people's narrative, whatever, consciously or unconsciously, for example, visibly Pakistan, normalizing terrorism, normalizing terrorism from Pakistan, almost rationalizing it when you say, you talk to them or you don't talk to them, there were also people who are Saying that poor Pakistanis were the victims and now they were also becoming normalized.

Unfortunately, many of these people had power disproportionate to their reach of visibility or actual readership, but how do we deal with that? Look, you know, the first topic would be I think the real debate with Pakistan should not be about Pakistan or not, dr. Pakistan is what Pakistan should be talked about and I think there has been clarity in the last five years that unless we address the issue of terrorism, cross-border terrorism talking about anything else is meaningless, okay? have that clarity before, I mean, okay, no, we can talk about the different ways to talk about it.

I don't know the diplomatic tactics here, but I think if we don't have clarity on this, you know, if you ask an average Indian today, okay? he bothers you, what will he say to you?, he will tell you, look, he is a Pakistani. I mean, no one has anything against the average Pakistani. Okay, Pakistani policy of terrorism, which actually bothers the average Indian now. I think we had reached a very interesting stage, but the average Indian, for me, Indian streets were in some ways smarter than Luo Tian's Delhi. Okay, the Indian streets got it right, that's why the Indian streets actually produced the 2014 and 2019 election results, so the Indian streets got it, my problem is here.

It is a country that is practicing terrorism and is using terrorism to bring me to the table on those terms. It's their thing now, so you know what happens to people who kind of normalize it. Look, we have heard a law. I've seen arguments and, frankly. I've argued with people whose point of view is well, you know, that's how Pakistanis are, that's not a good enough answer. It would show me any other place in the world, any other place in the world where a country openly practices terrorism against its neighbor, that era. gone, it doesn't happen anyway and it's not like these are dark caves and you know a little bit about the North West Frontier Province, this marichka and the defecated intestine what we are talking about is Karachi and Lahore, it is Rawal Pindi and Islamabad, so It's not, it's not something. but you know, it's a bit, I would say it's a kind of implausible politics of denial.

I will do it, but you can't blame me, so why can't I do it? No, you can't let them get away. Has that changed with the strategic shift and, in your opinion, have you seen India move from a UBA UBA Pakistan policy to a no talks with terrorism policy of the Modi government, looking at both administrations from the inside, which in your opinion ? Has it been the biggest change? What has been the biggest change? These, you know, visibly, theForeign Affairs visa will be Pakistan, no, I think over time you know, like I said, a lot of this has to do with fundamentals, some of it has to do with image, but ultimately it's about this, it's about leadership. for you it's solid, it's what you have in your head, you know, it's your way of thinking, you know, I think today we have clarity about Pakistan, which frankly we don't have.

I think we have always had clarity, but we did not have clarity on how to do it. We have to respond to it or we get confused. I think that whole narrative about whether we should talk to them or not was Afghan, very convenient for Pakistanis after 26/11. You don't talk to us, it's your crime. killing 166 Indians is not a crime but you not talking to us after we have killed 166 Indians is the most serious crime and all the TV anchors in the media and in India who ask these questions are hypoventilated and mutualists. We don't, and I would add one more point, or not, and that is that I think people who equate a victim with the perpetrator of terrorism are doing themselves a disservice.

I mean, that's the most gentle and diplomatic way I can say absolutely dr. Jay Shanker India to call Pakistan before ICJ in Kulbhushan Jadhav case. First of all, congratulations on behalf of everyone for the way we have approached the case that we won at the ICJ when, not only you know, it ruled mostly in favor of India in granting consular access but also called out Pakistan for violating the Vienna Convention in my opinion, this was a great victory for us because a great tree based on law, facts, arguments, strategy, belief and public opinion and a great lawyer called Harish Salvage, so already you know, it was a It was a brilliant combination of all this as a reporter, can you tell us some of what happened behind the scenes in the Bhushan Jadhav coal case?

What was the report, for example, what was the report that was given to you? If you can give more details. Don't doubt this, you don't know, I can see how you're frowning and thinking, you know no, it's not that place. I'll tell you why this is still an issue, which is still alive in some way. I mean, the problem is. is still ongoing so my own feeling is that the fact that we went to the ICJ because you know we had actually put in caveats, each of the countries had put in a caveat about the other being taken to the ICJ. , but we found a legal avenue by which we could Bring Pakistan to the ICJ and I think a lot of the credit for what happened at the ICJ goes to the people who saw that avenue and sort of exploited that at this time.

I don't want to say more because look at Cole Bush and Adam. It remains a very sensitive matter and I would still like to know, as I said, that we are completely committed to bringing him back home and until he returns it is not an issue. I would like to worry. Still, I will lead another round of applause for how you have handled the Kulbhushan case and another round of applause, another round of applause. You see, I went to Hindu College in Delhi University and many of our friends are there and many of our hostel mates went and joined the Foreign Service.

Later and we feel proud when we see them and yes, diplomats leading the charge right now, so another round of applause for the way in which, under your leadership, young diplomats are allowed to leave office in the courts of world public opinion. Now what about China? What is really happening? Do you know what the problem is with China? Knows? Chinese President Xi Jingping received such hospitality and later received Pakistani Prime Minister Imran Khan and discussed Kashmir. Then on October 9, while meeting Prime Minister Modi in Malappuram, he said that Kashmir is a bilateral issue right, I don't know what they want to practice now, but I have always seen that the Chinese want to fight battles without even fighting them. .

The old strategy of the Chinese is to never win battles without using your army. and the world knows that the army has not been tested very often and when the army has really been tested they have had a hard time, but that they fight only in the matters of public opinion. I would like to know how you read them 31. In November after that, after saying a bilateral issue, they released a statement from Chant Kashmir calling the bifurcation illegal, illegal and void. you mentioned it at the beginning of this session look at our relationship, which I know is really a mix of competition and collaboration and I said this, I mean, first of all, I don't see anything wrong with competition, I think it's natural whether it's individuals or companies or nations competition is a natural way of life now that we have, we are both quite unique, I mean, we are two countries that have more than a billion people each, we have a certain place in human history that no or today .

The main political system remains, so the other historic centers have actually declined over time. We have, you know, sort of second, if not multiple, phases of ascendancy, and the factors when two states of this size rise in roughly the same period of time and have risen faster. and in front of us, but it turns out that they are also neighbors, so it is a particularly unique event, you know, sometimes, like astronomy in world history, it is a very unique event. Okay, now we have problems. I mean, not all of us know the problems. It's not a secret, you know?

It ranges from border disputes to issues of relations they have with other countries, including Pakistan, so the challenge for us is how to stabilize this relationship. We will find areas of convergence, management and balance, because I will tell you why in international relations. They're working in a context, okay, you're not the only two players, there are 298 other players, so it's like playing. I'm playing against you, but I'm also playing against 198 other people, so it's not an India-China interest we're dealing with. in a way in which we, the rest of the global system, are not weakened, so it is a particularly difficult task, a very challenging task, but I think given the circumstances, given all these things, they understand it, we understand it.

We understand, so I would say that for all the complexity of that relationship we have reached a level of stability today and I point out one thing, I want to say again, is that it is a long border, it is a big border dispute, a border dispute, but keep in mind that at the end of the day there may be intrusions, but we still have protocols in place. There is no real violence on the border, so I recognize that there is a risk that it suggests something else. You are the best and you know it. Everybody knows.

As a diplomat, you had the most on-the-ground experience in China, but does it occur to you? I'm sure it occurs to you on some level, sir. Minister, the Chinese only want to compromise, they know that they will never be our allies, they know that they will never take a position in Poland either, but they continue to participate and continue to send contradictory signals so that we do not confront them diplomatically. I don't want to say the opposite and let me give you two examples. The first was in Masood Azhar. You know, they're mixed signals. China is a country of contradictory signals.

On May 3, he did not oppose Masood Azhar's inclusion in the UN list of global terrors, but China itself proved to be an obstacle to including Masood Azhar in the blacklist in 2009, 2016-2017 and in March of this year, now we are confused, this is a sign of improving relations or a sign of example, and once again, they know it after the meeting in Tamil Nadu. At the beginning of October, at the end of the month, some people were hoping that China would not oppose the blacklisting of Pakistan and the FATF, you know, saying that the goal of the body was not to sanction or punish any country, so that they didn't do it.

Of course, there is a trust deficit we have here and you are the man who played a pivotal role in defusing the 73-day clam crisis between India and China in 2017, which is why I ask. you a longer follow up on China than just by staying engaged ensure that there are global diplomatic forums where we can, as you said, exert our influence, we engage with them, they create the fire, we defuse it and then they create another fire, we defuse it in the process, they make sure that their brilliant diplomats don't really confront them, so it's a smart strategy, maybe on their side, well, I'm not sure I'd put it the way you have petitio.

I mean, first of all, look, the diplomatic profession is a profession of realists, okay, you play a game, it's not that I don't know you're playing, I play a game, you know I'm playing too, so in this world of realists we all know what we are doing. each other, secondly, you know that when it comes to my interests, I will fight for it, you know, if you are not accommodating with my interests, I will obviously pressure you to be accommodating with them and you know the example that they have raised for example from 1267. The masu desert committee would be one of them, but the masood azhar list really mattered to us and we stayed away, that's not the only shoe.

I would give another, for example, let's say that the membership of the Nuclear Suppliers group, yes, it is an issue that they have not supported. from us, yeah, okay, once again we know that they don't support us, they know that we know where they haven't supported us, but we keep walking away, so the trick in my business is that you know, you handle it, you handle it, in certain way. Don't let anything get out of hand and yet stay the course in a very landless-focused way and if you look at a lot of our conversations with all countries, but especially with China, see, I mean we have certain goals. .

It's not that we've allowed ourselves to stray from those goals, we've consistently maintained them, so I think a country like China requires perseverance, it requires patience, it requires trust, it knows the ability to defend itself and I think we have them in abundant supply, so I have every reason to believe that look. I need to continue, but I shouldn't be, you know, don't get carried away with an event, don't think, okay, we had a big meeting today, so all my problems. They are going to be resolved this is not the way I know things are unpredictable, but who can be more unpredictable than Donald Trump?

Now the nation wants a rhetorical question, it was a very real question, so we are in the media and we also live in the real world very often. It seems like it's not true, especially at nine o'clock, but we live in the real world, how do you handle it? He just said that you went to him and said please help me in Kashmir and I was there that day. I thought of you, thank you. I thought of you and said who would want to be in the shoes of the Foreign Minister of India today, you know, because you said the whole Prime Minister came to me and said, I need your help and I think I have the comment here, President. on August 27.

Trump rejects the scope for mediation saying that Modi has it under his control. A month later, on the sidelines of the summit, he says they'd kind of like my help, and the first President Trump takes to Twitter to complain about high tariffs on India and all his diplomacy. is on Twitter on h-1b visas higher tariffs everything is on Twitter what is a real equation with Donald Trump beyond what you know, event in Houston what is really a very situation with the US and with Trump because the prophecy is very strong, you have a somewhat unique resident.

I assure you that he has his own methods. Yes, now I see it again. I keep coming back to the first point. I finally know that I have to make it clear what I want. You know, you don't go into a game saying what other people's game plans are. they matter, but I have to have my game plan, I have to have my goals, I have to have a clear idea of ​​what I want in this case of America, care about what it says and how it portrays this, no, so it's a perception global, so look at my The point is fine, he has an unusual approach, let's say on trade and tariff issues.

What I mean is that I have prayed for interests, so if the Americans are interested in involving us in trade negotiations, fine, I will involve them now, by the way, that is. exactly what I'm doing now, but I'm also clear about my own mental career and will fight to protect my interests now that I have. I think we have mutual interests when it comes to technology ecology and talent. My job is to convince the American establishment that there is common ground here and, in fact, one of the interesting observations that mr. Trump did in Houston was actually about recognizing the importance of legitimate residents in the United States, so it's not like that, if you read the art of the deal often, it will start with positions that are somewhat angular, that's how you start the negotiation, are you suggesting that all diplomats and foreign ministers around the world start reading Trump's books written in the 80s and 90s, where he made money from American real estate, but in reality you say that I am not like You say, it can't be funny, really?

Seriously, that is the negotiation style, so I would say that the combination of aFrom real estate tycoon and investment banker to global politics he works. Do we also think that way? Is it so bad? I know I'm not in the business of saying it's good or bad I have what I have now I know you're talking about our interests yes I appreciate that but I want to know if it's really possible to do that you see we have a relatively strong relationship with the United States The United States also has a very positive relationship with the Russians, we are buying S400 missiles from them.

Russia really welcomes Indian investments in the Far East and Russia defended us in Kashmir, how do you balance the relationship, for example, between Putin on the one hand and Trump on the other, not just as personalities but as two countries with games of very divergent global power, where does the power of the pirates play in that sense? I don't think I told you I had an easy job, okay? The point is that these are things you should do. We need to be part of a block. Look. No, let me tell no one, so let me come to the agreement first.

We'll come back and land. I'll be back for sure, so idiot, let me tell him. you briefly about the United States, look, there will be whatever mr. Trump can say or not say, point or not point, the fact is that our relationship with the United States has grown phenomenally over the last 25 years and our relationship with the United States and the Trump administration has grown very impressively, in fact , trade has increased if you take some kind of index, today security cooperation is greater, we have access to much more technology than before, so in many ways I would tell you that the Trump administration, although it is negotiating intensely on the basis of America first, factors that are also very practical and pragmatic people when it comes to doing business and they have a world view and in that world view we have been able to build a good relationship now as far as aRussia Russia is a very different ball game Russia is a very unusual relationship because, while the world has changed enormously in the last 30 years, Lee, the relationship between India and Russia has been one of the few constants in a process of change , but you know, I have my own theories.

I think it's actually a genuinely geopolitical relationship, so it hasn't allowed the ups and downs of everyday economics and politics to influence it as much, but it has helped you extraordinarily stabilize me now, when I look at foreign policy and I look at India. that is Bharat, okay, I am looking here is the world, multiple players, many contradictions and arguments between them, how can I get the best for my country, okay, and to get the best for my country, I would try to have the best relations possible with everyone. including China, which you had raised before to be at the best, you know, my leverage capacity is the highest, okay, that's really what I'm doing, so you know, sometimes I tell people that look at this sub Casa sub cabacas sub K era it actually applies even more and foreign policy I have to play with everyone, that's what will really give me the best position for this and I see that, frankly, I mean, we have had our conversations with the American that I am. "Very sincere to the Americans, I tell them look, I have a strong relationship with Russia.

I have a long-standing relationship with Russia. I care about it. These are issues where, frankly, we will do what is an Indian national interest. Now I think that They should accept it. I think they will." We're all hearing language that you haven't heard before, otherwise you know the big military deals, every Marcia deal, everything was considered from the beginning as a right issue for the Americans and if we're all on our own side, It's good that everyone doesn't need to be on anyone's side, they are also working incredibly hard and I want you to explain this part right now.

Can I tell you how hard our foreign minister is working? I'm keeping a close eye on the fact that in one week at the UN General Assembly you'll find these amazing 36 bilateral meetings, seven multilateral meetings and eight sites of bickering in less than a week at the UN General Assembly, you're obviously working incredibly hard and we're proud of you for that and when you work hard like this, obviously, you laid the foundation for something was this, what were we, you're laying the foundation for, you know, when you were doing this at the United Nations General Assembly in In general terms, if you can share with me what your short and medium term goal is for the country, whether you know it or not, very soon we will be the most populous country in the world and a few years later we will be the third largest economy in the world.

We will be the largest talent pool in the world. I would say you know it, you know it. Regarding the great international problems of the world, it will be necessary for us to intervene in some way, that is a part that is a kind of side of the coin, the other side is that we must do more, we must have relationships with everyone we should be. everywhere, you know, we can't, nowadays, I mean, you know, people organize elections in this country. I mean, that's what democracy is about, you know, foreign policy is also about elections. I am constantly testing my national position in elections of various kinds now if I am doing that, I need to have relations in all corners of the world, so interestingly Avenue, you should look at the Prime Minister's agenda at the same time, you know he did it between 40 and 42 countries, as I remember, well, and he made a lot of countries that in the old days we wouldn't really get involved with, you know, he'll say countries all present when they're civilized to quote that he doesn't like the bilaterals, yeah, If I'm not mistaken, it was to Putin if we have a policy locus, so my The point is when you say what you are preparing for.

We need to involve the entire international community in various ways. You know we have to be central to Africa's calculations. We have to be present in the Pacific islands. Have. If tomorrow in the Caribbean people thought of India, a country not very distant, that is what this will actually be, these are the ingredients of a power, it is a long journey, we are at the beginning of this journey, the ingredients of a power of oh no, I would say it's magnificent. In my opinion, it is very far away, I would say that a leading power, if you are moving towards becoming a leading power, then you have to lay the foundation, we are not going to have a formal bloc, but we will have a large group of friendly nations to which operate with yes, absolutely, I would look to my previous job, the fact that we were able to defeat a p5 country of the United Kingdom for the ICJ elections, yes, I mean, it actually showed me, you know, how the rest of the world thinks of me, it was frankly a moment of great satisfaction to be a power we need to be in the UN Security Council and this question is not just rhetoric we are going to get there because now we are not operating alone we were operating with Germany I think with Japan Japan Brazil money Japan Brazil and India all countries deserve to be on the UN Security Council Does this know our case is stronger?

Does anyone know, I have never met a country that says no, I don't think it should be on the UN Security Council and I don't discuss this issue with Pakistan, so for me the issue is that the time will come when the The United Nations will also realize the value of having us there. I see the beginning - oh yes, absolutely perhaps somewhat anecdotal as far as I think you know, there is a process underway today in the United Nations about reforming the United Nations as a whole, including the Security Council, I think That process has a lot of traction; many countries today are willing to talk, but, as you know, any major change will not happen overnight, and those who have a vested interest in the status quo will obviously defend it, of course, of course, last ask India 2030, you know, then it will be when those weak Millennials of now will be 50 years old and you know, India 2030, when later Millennials will be 30 years old, how do you visualize it? us as a country, so I often think that I often think that dr.

Jason Curry, you have a lot more experience than me, what our country will be like when we see and when I, when I travel abroad, I now see the gap more perceptively, you know that society has an impact on politics, politics as an impact on diplomacy, everything is linked. I think, as a student of society and a diplomat, all of your work to where today is a whole building block this D separation of a relationship with Pakistan what you just said we have come a long way, we are using a cloud economically, otherwise, we are of our side.

Please tell us and the August meeting in Seoul and everyone watching how you see your country as our country in 2030 in diplomatic and political terms, look, you know, I joined the government 42 years ago. I couldn't have imagined that we would be where we are at that time and if I look at the period before I joined the government, you know, I have memories of 1965. I have memories of, you know, all the uncertainties of that decade, old enough to remember well the 1960s and '60s, when I look to 2030, I see more changes between now and 2030 than I saw in the last 40 years, okay, but what I expect to see is, I mean, if you ask me what foundation I would build my foreign policy on , my aspiration, my ambition, my dreams.

I would build it, I mean, for me, it's all about people, if I can, if I know the quality of talent, skills and resources in this country, if I can bring them into play, I think, frankly, I would change not only this country , I will change the world, so I tell people to look even in foreign policy for me, the really interesting thing in the last five years and in the next five years is how I use foreign policy to accelerate changes in India, For me, foreign associations, for example, that contribute to that. change because it's not just about numbers anymore, you know, I mean you, your numbers are useful.

I agree with you, but I see this great upheaval in our society, the fact that I see a narrowing of the gaps, the aspiration gaps, that you are going to really remote areas that today I can do as a politician something that I didn't do before and I see how many aspirations have been leveled in the country. You know, that to me is the beginning of an upheaval and I think it will produce a very different India. You know, I think. The full impact of Indian talent is truly what will define Indian foreign policy in 2030 and in thanking you I choose to say this: in you know that your sincerity, your authenticity, your hard work and your humility shine through and I think one of the reasons why we will be where you aspire us to be is because of the building blocks, the hard work that you are doing, so more power to you, Dr.

Jasion we could be very proud of you I can only say that thank you very much thank you very much