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Dr. Gabor Maté Interview | The Tim Ferriss Show

Jun 01, 2021
gobbler welcome to the


Tim, it's a great pleasure to be here thank you. I've been waiting for this conversation for a long time and I wanted to at least try to get it right, so I wanted to have the video and the audio and everything else because I think the work that you're doing is very important and we're going to cover a lot of ground that I'm very excited about. to cover because I think it's a real contribution and you have tools and frameworks that can really help people. I thought we could start with eBooks and the reason I thought that could be a fun place to start.
dr gabor mat interview the tim ferriss show
My audience loves number one books, but number two on Tribal Mentors, the last book I wrote or my guests wrote, came out and I thought a lot of the books you mentioned paint a picture of your life experience and also of your life's work in many ways and we can follow any particular order, but I thought maybe it would make sense to start with the scourge of the swastika and that was one that you mentioned had an impact on you or that perhaps you recommended in some way. occasion why is it so good then this has to do with my family history I grew up born in Budapest Hungary in 1944 in January two months before the Germans occupied the country and starving at that time it was the only country in Eastern Europe where the Jewish population had not been wiped out and now it was our turn, so I was two months old, the day after the German army entered Budapest, my mother called the pediatrician to tell him to Please come see Gob, oh of course she's crying all the time and the pediatrician said, of course I'll go, but I should tell you all my Jewish days about her crying and of course that's the baby realizing the terror and the her mother's stress.
dr gabor mat interview the tim ferriss show

More Interesting Facts About,

dr gabor mat interview the tim ferriss show...

This is how I spent the first year of my life, which had a huge impact on my development and my lifelong struggles with depression and ADHD. Shayne and I know other problems that arise now. I knew very little about that story that my parents didn't tell. I talked about this a lot growing up. I knew that my grandparents had been murdered in Auschwitz. I knew that my father had been in hard labor and I never saw him for a year and a half, but beyond that, I didn't know much about the details until I was about nine or ten, maybe eleven years old, and it was a book that It was on my parents' shelf in Budapest with the title The Scourge of the Swastika.
dr gabor mat interview the tim ferriss show
The wishes were written by a British civil servant and a member of the House of Lords. This man had served in the British government. Army and it was the first book published in the 1950s that detailed Nazi crimes and I stood on a chair, I picked up the book when I was I think I was 10 or 11 years old I started reading it, I saw photographs of the horrors of the concentration camps and the details of extermination in Eastern Europe and suddenly I fainted because I understood what happened to my family and that question of how can people do those things to other human beings that hits me every day and almost every day This thought occurred to me for Years and years and years almost every day I was almost dizzy with the question of why people suffer and my people make other people suffer and which is the original.
dr gabor mat interview the tim ferriss show
All of that has been a motivating question in my life, which is why that book was so important to me. Thank you and I have to say you know my life's work has been motivated by that question as a doctor. I'm always looking at what makes people the way they are. Why are we cruel? Why become? victims why we become perpetrators what drives us what kind of madness covers our basic human nature which I think is good and positive and what happens to us, we will surely spend a lot of time in that territory, okay, cement madness or madness.
I'm not sure if that's a good sequel to Don Quixote, but I'll let you choose the next one, so a few came up and you described them briefly in the pages of the book, but for example, the background. You just gave me that it was a lot deeper, so we have a few and these will seem eclectic to people. We need the puh, the Dhammapada, the drama of the gifted child and Don Quixote, which of them would you like to explain next? Chloe. The Pool Bend, let's go with Winnie the Pooh, yes, that was one of the fundamental books of my childhood and my parents would have read to me long before I knew how to read.
The Hungarian title is Mud School Mitzi and finally it was Moscow Mitzi Mitsuko Mitzi, the bear and the translator, is a great hunger and humorist, so if anything, the Hungarian book is even funnier than the English original, which is not something that is usually said about translations, but when it comes to billiards, of course, it was number one there. this small-brained bear who was so much wiser than everyone else so fundamental that he found the piece inside even though his intellect was barely functioning number one number two there was this relationship with the boy Christopher Robin and there's a passage towards the end of the book where Christopher Robin I don't even know the real story, in fact, there's a movie, there's a movie about it right now, but Christopher Robin, his father, an EML, was a writer and he bought these toys for his son to make stories about them and Christopher Robin actually suffered because he was secondary to his father's career, they didn't have a good relationship, so these characters that Father Mia invented dominated and squeezed Christopher Robin's own life and he himself became a bookseller later . his life and wrote about his autobiography, so there is something about dysfunctionality and the father-son relationship, but in the book Christopher is playing with his toys and then he starts to grow up and has to go to school and he won't be able to. play with their toys more and at the end of the book there is a passage where the book ends, but wherever they go in the enchanted forest, the little boy like bear will always be playing together and that would make me cry for decades after decades after decades until recently I had an experience actually a psychedelic experience when I realized that there is nothing to cry because I am both the bear and the little boy and I would be playing nothing is lost, but when I read that in the book there was a sense of loss when I read that passage, there was always something being lost, the innocence of childhood was being lost, the joy was being lost, which resonated with my own take because I lost the innocence and then the joy very early in life, so both of us fun. and the mood then of course dizzy or for whom everything always goes wrong and it's a part of me that is totally or always expecting the worst and nothing will turn out well for me and it doesn't matter leave me alone I'm fine in my own suffering you I know that's it a kind of determined victim attitude that was also too related to my internal experience, so that book just spoke to me and made me laugh and it still does.
It is one of the funniest books ever written and also one of the wisest. I need I'm just embarrassed to say this but I've only seen the cartoon oh of course I know I know but listen listen one of the sins that Walt Disney is going to burn in hell for the rest of his existence is what he did with those stories while Disney fought against them. I did not found them. You have to read the original. And would you laugh off guard? Amen Amen I wish you spoke Hungarian so I could read the translation you would like of these and we can certainly touch on other books, but we have three left, three on my list, the Dhammapada, the drama of the gifted child and Don Quixote, well, let's go to the drama of the gifted child on the drum of The Gifted Child is by a Swiss-Jewish-German-Swiss psychotherapist named Alice Miller, who was a psychoanalyst for three decades, but realized that the Freudian psychic psychoanalytic method was not helping anyone get better because it ignored trauma, so the drama of the gifted child received the German title. of which were prisoners of childhood was really about the fact that things happen to us as children, negative things happen, then we adapt those things by adopting certain defensive ways of being and then we leave the rest of our lives in those defensive ways to We are not actually experiencing the present, but constantly reliving the past from a perspective that we acquired when we were helpless and vulnerable children and when it says gifted injection it refers to a sensitive child, so the more sensitive the child is, the more feel. the pain and the stress of the environment and the more affected they are and the more that shapes their lives and that book appeared for me when I was 40 years old and I was a successful doctor and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and I was a father but I was depressed I was anxious I was an addict work you wouldn't have known it when you saw me at work but inside I was discouraged I had difficulties in my marriage with my children I felt that they were afraid of me and they were because of my anger and that book helped me understand, it was the first book that I It helped to understand where all that was coming from, so it was for me, as for many people, an essential read and really all my work since then has been to help free people.
From that prison that childhood often imposes on many of us, this book has repeatedly appeared in my life as a recommendation as a youth book recommended by friends who benefited from it, without a doubt, from any external perspective, they are highly functional Yes, in some cases, the world. -class performers in their fields and, in retrospect, I'm sad that I ignored those recommendations, but it was partly because I didn't like the pair of gifted children. I didn't want to label myself as a given child, we could certainly psychoanalyze that, but I thought, hmm, if this is a book written for people who are, say, in gifted and talented programs or who have some God-given talent, for some reason I had resistance. to that, so I didn't read it, but prisoners of childhood do a lot.
It makes more sense to me anyway, well I think it's a more accurate title, but there are two things I would say in response, firstly, why are you resisting your own talents? You're clearly gifted, so why wouldn't you want to know about that? I don't know, yeah, so that's something you might want to consider. Sure number one, number two, really what she means is the sensitive child, yes, very sensitive, yes, that would appeal to me because I've had it, we don't necessarily have to go through this. rabbit hole right now, but several of my friends asked me recently when you knew you were so sensitive, yes, and not sensitive in a hyperreactive way, not in a negative way, just in a perceptive way, and I never thought about myself myself, it would never have occurred to me to label myself as sensitive and it's only been in the last year that I've been thinking about it, so this sensitive child would have more sensors, would be more attractive, well, yes, you have to think about sensitive.
In terms of the origin of the word, the word sensitive came so in the Latin sense of the word here it feels, so the sensitive person feels more, yes, the example I often give is and the implementation leads to consequences very positive and very difficult, for example, if I tap on you. on your shoulder right now you wouldn't feel any pain at all, but if you weren't wearing a shirt and your skin was exposed, furthermore, if you had a burn on your shoulder, your nerve endings would be close to the surface if I attacked you with the same force that you would feel extremely unbearable pain even if the external event was no different, right, so sensitivity magnifies the pain we have.
Sensitivity also leads to more creativity, so very often more creative people also have more pain, which is My many creative people escape their pain through all kinds of dysfunctions like addictions, etc., so There is a real link between creativity and sensitivity and creating the video and sensitivity and suffering at the same time, that is the first point that I would not make anything. Another thing goes back to what you said about these people you know or high performers. Look at that word artists, what does it mean to act? One meaning of it is to put on a


Surely that is one meaning and I would have been one of them. These high performers, in other words, look from the outside like a successful, fun doctor, director of a palliative care unit at a major hospital, national columnist for a Canadian newspaper who writes high-performing medical columns. level and inside again anxious, frustrated, depressed, discouraged and in my personal life there is a lot of suffering, so many people who perform well are actually deeply worried inside and of course there are many famous examples of that, some of the best artists like Presley or Melon Munroe and many people like a name, that's what they were, they were artists and even from themselves they hid their own suffering.
We're sitting in a place right now recording this thing that's now known as lzr and there's a wall of prints outside because he did his, I understand, at the last performance. in this place actually before he passed away before he overdosed before heoverdosed yes, exactly and we can certainly come back to this, but part of the reason I wanted a big part of the reason I wanted to have you on this show was because I went through I'm in a much better place now for many reasons that maybe outside of this


, but I feel exactly the same way you just described, yes, externally successful, internally tortured, yes, and how do you answer the question if someone knows you and you only have a brief interaction?
What are you doing? What do I do if someone asks you? Yes, what are you doing? I may be selfish, but one time some people called me, people whisper, people whisper. I have a gift to see inside myself because I have studied. Also sensitive and in a way and I have also studied myself very deeply. I had to do it because my life just wasn't working and as a doctor I have worked with all types of conditions terminal illnesses newborns families physical illnesses mental dysfunctions I spent 12 years working with addictions. I spent exploring my own and other people's ADHD, so I work with people to bring out the truth of their experience so that they are no longer prisoners of their childhood, but can make a conscious decision about how to live in the present moment. , not based on how they were programmed and plotted, but to do that you have to do it in a way that the dog whisperer does it in a very compassionate way, otherwise people just shut down and wither and protect themselves, so that it's what I do and I know I also write and speak publicly etc. but the intention is always to bring knowledge and liberation to people so I'm going to Come back to medicine because I would love to know when your journey into medicine began, but first, since I know my listeners will say, but you forgot the other two books, the other one talks about the Dhammapada Don Quixote in any order you want, well, let's get into it. the order in which I discovered them, which is Don Quixote, which again I read as a child and then I reread it many times as an adult and he is my favorite character, so Quixote is this deluded little Spanish nobleman who wants to relive the era of cavalry and cavalry. then he guessed his broken horse called Rocinante and he is Lanza and his sword and he puts this Squire called Sancho Panza on his donkey and they go on these adventures and he does not see reality he thinks that the windmills are Giants and attacks them and of course he gets hurt and keeps getting hurt because he doesn't see reality, but his heart is purely committed to freeing people to truth, to justice, to fighting against oppressors and to freeing the oppressed, so here it is this guy who really wants to do good in the world and is just deluded in his vision, but he's so much truer and deeper and more human than all the people who make fun of him and laugh at him, so what a great character and the book is both moving and very funny and it is him. one of the great creations of world literature and of course you again know that the longing for justice has always burned in my heart because of what happened to me and what I witnessed at the Dhammapada.
The demonstration part is the collection of sayings of the Buddha and begins with Basically, the idea that we create the world with our mind, it says that everything is thought out in the head, so the way we see the world is what determines the world we live in, so if I see the world as a horrible place, according to the current president, America then I will be defensive, self-aggrandizing and selfish because I want to take before they take from me. I want to attack before they attack me. I'll also be too self-conscious because you can't trust the world, so if that's the case. the world you live in that is the way you are going to create and the Buddha was a great psychologist immature recognizes that our perceptions shaped the world we live in now what he didn't say and that's where modern psychology comes in is that before with our mind we create the world the world creates our minds mm-hmm so the kind of world we live in is largely shaped by early experiences Buddha didn't say that, but it's pretty safe when you think about his search for truth , what happened For him, if you read his biography, his mother died before he was a week old, so he lost his most important relationship, so his life started with suffering and then he spent his whole life trying to find the nature of suffering and how to transcend suffering and how to go beyond it and that's how he ended up with this particular method of meditation, contemplation and search for truth, so that book was written twenty-five thousand years ago and psychologically we still grasp it by trying to reach the wisdom in it, so let's talk first about wisdom or maybe science, yes, and maybe they are related in some way, although I know we will delve into some things that might be missing, when medicine came into your life, out of interest in medicine, interest in being a doctor, either of the two.
Well, I've speculated about those things and there are a number of sources that, quite strangely or not so strangely, my grandfather, who was murdered in Auschwitz when he was 50, turned out to be a writer and a doctor grandson ends up being a writer and a doctor, So I think part of it was me trying to fill a void in my mother's life that was a devastating blow to her. This is not conscious, but I'm speculating that looking back it's not that she ever said you have to be a doctor, it's not that she ever said you have to follow in your grandfather's footsteps, but I think I consciously assumed that role number one, number two, another reason is that as a Jew in Eastern Europe you had every reason to feel insecure and my mother never stopped telling me that.
As a doctor, you carry your profession in your hands, so you don't have to have a business, you don't have to have wealth, you just have to have the knowledge and then you can go anywhere in the world and you will be fine. beyond that healing and and and and making this world a better place and he will make people help people live healthy lives was just an ideal of mine, so there was like a testicle reasons that say doctors get respect, spin, People with income look up to them and they have a sense of authority that I think I was lacking in my own life, so it was a combination of unconscious reasons and idealistic reasons and typical legatus reasons, but all I know is that all my life I had wanted to be nothing more than a doctor I always grew up knowing that I will be a doctor and when you were studying medicine what did you think your specialty or specialties could be first of all I must say that I did not finish I followed the dream because, in my adolescence, I simply did not I could concentrate and study enough to pass science.
I was able to get through them, but I couldn't get the high grades needed to go to medical school, so I actually taught at a high level. school for three years I taught English and history for three years and then I would wake up and this voice in me you could be a doctor, you have to be a doctor, so I went back to medical school and already worked a lot Having been a senior in medical school medicine and being interested in history and literature and the bigger picture, I always wanted to put medicine in the context of history and the context of society in the context of the human experience, not just as an isolated science but as part of the broader human experience and I was interested from the beginning between the connections between emotions and illness, between social factors and health, etc., so I was always a person with a broader vision and that was already with me . in medical school, so the integration of mind and body as opposed to this Cartesian duality and the separation of mind and body is exactly not that anything in medical school prepared me for that, I mean, the users from medical school they don't get that information at all, but that was always interesting to me and then when I started practicing, if you have your eyes open, you can't, you can't help but see that who gets sick and who doesn't get sick accidentally and who gets cancer, who doesn't.
It is not accidental and who becomes addicted and who does not is not accidental. There were not these reasons and those reasons go beyond the individual and have to do with their emotional lives and their relationships and a society in the culture in which they live. Increasingly over the decades, my own personal struggles and medical experience have shown me that these connections are important. How did you end up in hospice care? I guess for those people listening who don't know what palliative care is, maybe you can. Give just a brief explanation of what it is, some people might consider it palliative care, which I don't think is necessarily identical, but hey, how did it end up?
What was the path to palliative care and what are palliatives? so I was a very motivated family doctor and I also have a GED, which means you want to move around and have different experiences, you know, because you get tired of the same thing and in retrospect I could say there is some guidance. In all of this, but the way it happened was a series of accidents, so I was walking down the hallway of Vancouver's main hospital when the current director of palliative care said, I'm going to resign. How would you like to come to work in palliative care? and I said, sure, you know, I didn't think it took me, I don't have a moment to think about it, I was just looking for someone to grab, sure, thanks, what's that?
And it has a deep meaning for a job, because when people face death. They also call for facing the truth of your lives and if you can face death, you can face the impaler difficulty of life with transitioning with a terminal illness. These are people with videos that nothing healing or curative is going to happen in the physical sense. healing, so they need help with their symptoms, their pain, their ability, their weakness or their nausea, but they also need to be helped through the psychological process of adapting to a very short future and people who are attracted to the palliative care work as nurses. and doctors tend to be a special breed, it's not because a lot of doctors aren't comfortable with death, they're not comfortable with not being able to do something to save someone, so you have to develop a lot of patience and a lot of acceptance. letting go of your power to change things so that it is deeply meaningful and deeply transformative work and you also have to work with many people with multiple different attitudes towards life and there are religious, non-religious, spiritual, non-spiritual, in denial, in acceptance in all. the middle stages, so it was a beautiful, beautiful job and I'm the highlight of my medical career at the same time, I was still doing my family practice, when, when, a focus on addiction or a keen interest in addiction began to direct? his medical practice, so I was a family doctor.
I have always had substantial iyx in my practice, it is only a few and again it was an accident. I was fired from a hospice job and my argument is that I was fired simply for gross competition. too good, but also out of rude arrogance; In other words, with my non-traditional, spontaneous, insightful and quite radical style, I could and often did get great results in palliative care, if I may interrupt for a second what would or could be an example of your approach that others thought it was radical or something you would say or something you would do with a patient that's what got great results but that would seem very radical to others, well, I would engage them in deep conversations and I would come up with things.
It would be painful but it would be physically transformative. I would just use methods that are unproven but that I am entitled to and that seem to be helpful and help people overcome pain or deal with problems etc. I was very open and multiple approaches I wasn't just following things by the rules so that was my competence, the arrogance was that I had a very busy life. I was still delivering babies and running my family practice so I was going into palliative care and then the nurses said I would work with For me it was like working in the eye of a tornado and other doctors who didn't have my particular attitude or mindset.
They would legitimately question what I was doing, but I would consider all that questioning as an attack rather than an investigation and react. like a bulldog that's being threatened and that's arrogance and that's what ended up letting me get fired and it was a big layoff because like always I learned a lot about myself, it took a while, but it took and then three weeks after that they fired me I received this phone call from our clinic in downtown east Vancouver. Now downtown east Vancouver is the most concentrated area of ​​drug use in North America. We have more injection users within this radius of few cleaning books than anywhere else in North America, so I get this call. saying: would you like to come work here?
And this is three weeks after I was fired from the care tray. If I hadn't been fired, I couldn't have accepted that other job that laterIt led to the highlight of my career, which is working. twelve years with addict population and finally left family practice and went full time, so who orchestrated all this. I have no idea, but it was a beautiful progression, something that came up quite a bit in the


s on this podcast is a variation of sometimes it's necessary. life to save you from what you want to give you exactly what you need and I think about that a lot, at least it's a pain relief lens through which to view the events that unfold, how do you define addiction or maybe a better ?
The question is what is addiction and also if you want to address it, you know what the bad definitions of addiction or the misconceptions are. It's fair enough that an addiction is a complex psychological and physiological process, but it manifests itself in any behavior, any behavior that a person enjoys. a person enjoys, finds relief and therefore craves in the short term, but suffers negative consequences in the long term and does not give up despite the negative consequences, so craves pleasure, short term relief, negative consequences in long term, inability to provide it. without prior notice I haven't said anything about substances.
I said any behavior, so it could be related to cocaine, methamphetamine, heroin, fentanyl, marijuana, nicotine, alcohol, whatever it could also be sex, gambling, internet relationships, shopping, we were eating, work, extreme sports, exercise for nog Rafi, any number of humans. activities so I said any behavior now the official definition of addiction according to the American Society of Addiction Medicine is that this is primarily a blink it is a primary brain disorder arises in the role of the brain largely due to genetic reasons this ishow they see it and I say it's just not true the other popular idea of ​​what addiction is, that it's a choice that someone makes, that people choose to be addicted, that's what the legal system is based on, because if people don't choose What are we punishing? they stop and that's why, although I think the medical definition is closer to the truth, I don't see it as genetic, it's a genetic disorder and I don't see it as a primary brain disorder, so let me show you why if that's okay. , then I give you this definition of addiction again: desire for relief, pleasure, shorter negative cost of my long-term inability to quit.
Would you be willing to tell me if you have ever committed an addiction in your life? I don't care what - what I'm not asking what oh yeah oh I can say yes and I can tell you exactly what was okay all I was in high school, so I saw that I suffered, that's what I guess most of people would consider the beginning of depressive periods. I was 10 at the latest and I never found relief from that until I was competing in high school wrestling very seriously all through high school and an older teammate introduced me to a federal stimulant, a federal hydrochloride that for those people who are curious it's good in At least at one point ephedrine, at least pseudoephedrine was found in something called primatene mist which is used for asthma and I think they also mix it with guaifenesin, however the reason you can't buy big ones amounts of primatene mist in many places is because people are free.
I based it on methamphetamine, yeah right, so you have a federal stimulant which is a very strong stimulant combined with caffeine and aspirin and we've combined those three, it's not an incremental increase in effect, I mean it's probably logarithmic, it's an effect very synergistic exponentially herbs exactly and I recommended it to increase stamina and it has a certain effect, although it is also very thermogenic, which was not good for me, so it made me very hot, which was already one of my weaknesses, but it ended giving me relief, it was very strong stimulant and I started not only using it for sports but also self-medicating using it, okay it's great so let me quickly ask you what it did for you, relief from what it did to me or at least contributed to the euphoria , optimism, energy. so no, I didn't feel these symptoms of what in retrospect I would call depression, lethargy, the pessimistic lens through which I saw things pretty much just seemed to magically erase all of that in about 30 minutes, so your folio literally means a good feeling, it gave you energy, it made you feel good, it made you feel optimistic, it also improved sports performance, my mom sure did, all those good things are bad for feeling optimistic, those are all good things, okay, in other words . addiction was not your main problem, your main problem is that you are depressed, like you lack a sense of well-being, you lack energy, so in other words, addiction is not the main problem, it is an attempt to solve a problem .
Okay, and then the real question is how the problem arose. In other words, this is where my theory is that it is always rooted in childhood trauma and that addiction is an attempt to deal with the effects of childhood trauma, which it does temporarily while it lasts. It creates even more problems in the long run, right? I would have an additional question for you, given that statement with your medication of choice, this may not be true for you, but in retrospect do you think it is possible to have ADHD in a child because typically people with ADHD self-medicate with stimulants , yes, because we hardly treat ADHD, we now give people stimulants, yes, many people choose to self-medicate stimulants like nicotine, caffeine and methamphetamine, and a third man actually self-medicates.
IDIA outfits most likely yes, and the teachers punished me because I wouldn't say I wasn't paying attention but rather I was interested in other things in class, so I remember my kindergarten teacher very clearly. I will name her by her name because she is embarrassing, ma'am. MS Bevin or Mrs. Bevan hmm I refuse to learn the alphabet because she didn't give me a good reason why I needed to learn the alphabet, it was just necessary to learn the alphabet, so she made me eat soap in front of the class and The bad table they gave him was also that but I was always interested in doing many many things and in fact the reason why I started to struggle is because I was very hyperactive and as I believe other mothers tell the story They recommend it to my moms who put me in something called a childhood fight to drain my batteries before I get home mm-hmm, so that makes a lot of sense.
I have never been attracted to depressants, we have never been attracted to opiates, in fact, after surgeries I get very sick. If they give me vicodin or something like that, I have opted out and I personally have never had any problems with alcohol, although a lot of people have, there has always been a drought of stimulants, yes, and once we don't have to go down. This is this path because I want, I want you to be able to focus on these definitions, but where I got into trouble was because I had never been physically addicted to any substance before mm-hmm.
I started using the ECA stack once a day. my friend was using it twice a day. I started using it twice a day and then started using it three times a day. You develop a tolerance very quickly, more and more, and if you stopped the withdrawal symptoms or something absolutely, I had never experienced that, so I continued using this after doing sports and certainly in the long term there are some very unpleasant side effects, but I didn't. I stopped for many years so there is a big link between ATD and addictions and not just because they both start with the same three letters and I can tell you about my own ADHD and this is a way to go back to childhood again so that I can disconnect that distraction the desire to scatter your attention all over the place that's not a disease they say it's hereditary disease, hell is that, disconnecting from divided attention is actually, but let me ask you a personal question again, if I were abusive to you right now, verbally or in another way, what would be your options at this moment?
I could ignore you, but that's not what I would do first, isn't it likely? I mean, I would do it right now. I would probably just listen and pause. I shut down and if they attack me verbally because I don't want to respond with anger, which historically has been my response. I hear you. but let's be a little more basic about it, the rational response if I became abusive would be for you to just assert yourself by saying don't talk to me that way, right? or you would stop saying this in two more years. Hmm and if for some reason you didn't have the strength to do it, there are other people here with us in the room, you could ask for help, but what if you couldn't escape, fight or seek help, then you would shut down? or disconnect right now, disconnecting is simply a defensive response on the part of the brain now it takes me back to my childhood when my mother is so distressed that I am crying because she is in pain and I will read you a quote here if you will allow me, yes please, and This has to do with the sensitive child, the child is very open and can feel pain and suffering and his immediate environment, the child is aware of his own body and can also feel the tension, stiffness and pain in the child's body. the mother of anyone else you are with if the mother suffers the baby also suffers the pain it is never discharged the body does not develop the confidence that it can regulate itself that things will happen as they should, hence the lack of optimism , OK?
You know mom didn't abuse me, she did everything she could to take care of me, but she was stressed, depressed, terrified, idiotic. I'm learning it like a sensitive baby. I can defend myself? Change the situation or escape from any of it. What I can do? Nothing I can do will turn my brain off as a way to deal with stress, so I'm not talking about abuse here. I understand what stress murmuring or raising to the child's brain. Then we will disconnect when trust paints to be new when. the brain is developing so disconnecting then being programmed is the default setting and that is why a DD is not an inherited disease, it is not a disease at all, it starts as a coping mechanism which is then programmed into the brain and there are many of these.
The first coping mechanisms work, they in the short term create long term problems and that is a TD is one of these examples and of course also most poems make you more likely to be addicted because now when you disconnect , life becomes less interesting you turn off emotionally you protect yourself now you feel depressed what depression really means you said you were depressed what a depression means to depress something is to push it down what people in depression push it down they push their emotions why they would do it because emotions are too painful, so even depression becomes a coping mechanism, you push it down so you don't feel the pain, but then that interferes with the functioning of your life, so it all starts as a coping mechanism of coping and then it becomes a source of dysfunction and all of this happens when the brain is actually developing, which we can talk about later, so these are the links that I started to make, even after I was diagnosed, and then despite the fact that a couple of my children were When I was diagnosed, I knew that this was not a genetic disease, but what it actually is is a coping mechanism that was programmed into the brain and then when I read the literature on brain development, wow, the terms of the human brain are shaped by the environment and particularly by the relationships between adults and children and it all started to make perfect sense to me, so there are some things that I would love to underline or reiterate because I think they are very useful for students and certainly, if I had had some of this rethinking I think I would have been able to be proactive working on a lot of my own problems much sooner mm-hmm, me too, by the way, yes, for example, so that we can get back to this.
Actually, I'm only going to mention two. things and then we can go wherever that takes us, but the first is, instead of asking why the addiction, ask why the pain, instead of looking at the consequences, look at the causes there and not confuse these symptoms with the causes . of asking why addiction, asking why pain and the other, this might take me a moment to read, but I think it's worth reading and I have to say compassion for addiction, this is an organization co-founded by yourself and Vicki . I'm going to guess that I've never actually said your last name, but lie or lie, Vicki, just to give context for people wondering.
In fact, I was the first person about five years ago to recommend that we meet and then I made a note of it in a notebook that I still have and that's part of the reason I sought out the book and just because we can revisit it, I met to Vicki at a meeting at the home of someone named George Sarlo, who has a lot of I care a lot about the common background with you and certainly the common interests, but we'll get back to the part I wanted to read is next and I'll make an attempt here to get the generalized view of addiction, you mentionedthis in comparison to clinical perspectives that addiction is a matter of individual choice, failure or moral weakness, which is why so many approaches are based on deterrence and punishment, including self-help approaches - in fact, I myself have tried the clinical view is that addiction is a disease of the brain with disordered brain circuits and behaviors and a precise but narrow perspective, so I think it's a really important perspective, aligned and precise but narrow, maybe precise but incomplete, true, it is true that in the addicted brain that the addicted brain is demonstrably a physiologically dysfunctional but limited brain because it seeks to explain the dysfunction in strictly physiological and biochemical terms without recognizing the emotional and social component of how the brain works and this really became clear to me recently in recent years.
I've known Tony Robbins for years, yes, and not long ago I attended an event with several of my closest friends called Date with Destiny and at this event he asks the audience of 5,000 how many people here know someone who takes antidepressants. pretty much every hand goes up how many people here know someone who is on antidepressants but is still depressed and that's probably 80% of the people who put their hand up the first time and I personally know quite a few people who are on antidepressants that seem to help some level yeah , although tolerance to some of these pharmaceuticals can also develop very quickly and yet if my experience is anything like the experience of or I should say if other people's experiences are anything like my personal experience with friends, let's say that you If you have depression, you witness these thought patterns and verbal patterns that can take you from the top or just from a base of optimism and take you back to depression, so they seem to be just from one point from an empirical or observational point of view more towards history, so I really appreciate that you put into words what I have captured to try to understand and also convey with this definition of addiction, how do you work with patients?
Well, mm-hmm, let's get back to what I said, what you quoted me saying. not why addiction but why pain, then if we understand that addiction in all cases has its roots in some painful internal experience and that when you ask people what addiction does for you, they will say it makes me numb, alleviate the pain. It makes me feel connected to other gives me a sense of control it gives me inner peace or lack of inner peace lack of control lack of connection all forms of emotional pain if I ask not why the addiction but why the pain then That leads to an examination of that person's life rather than just looking at their brain chemistry, so they quote me from an article that appeared in the journal Pediatrics, which is the official journal of the American Academy of Pediatrics.
It's about all the pastiches you can get. 2012, the article comes from Harvard. Center on the development of children again, a prestigious child development research institution at Harvard University, this article did not present new information but elegantly summarized decades of research and look what they say, growing scientific evidence shows that social environments and physical development that threatens human development due to scarcity, stress, or instability can lead to short-term physiological and psychological adjustments that are necessary for immediate survival and adaptation, but which can come at a significant cost to outcomes. long-term learning behavior, health and longevity. That's what I said before.
That was really adaptations like suppressing your feelings, when pushing things is too painful, we'll help you when you're a baby, it's a toddler, but then they cause problems later on, the disconnection that you do to protect yourself from the stress in your life. The environment if you are very sensitive does not require much stress, it helps you and you, but in the long run it becomes the problem, that is exactly what they are saying now. I'll skip ahead a few pages to what they say about the brain. development so this is so crucial and it is so crucial because they still don't teach this in medical schools even though scientifically it is not even vaguely controversial the human brain develops an interaction with the environment it is not genetically programmed early this is what say the architecture of The brain is built for a continuous process that begins before birth, continues into adulthood, and establishes a strong or fragile foundation for all health learning and behaviors that follow.
Not part of health learning. All learning about health. Without noticing what they say first. The entire architecture of the brain is built through a continuous process that begins before birth, which means that what happens in the womb already has an impact on you, so if your mother is stressed and has high levels of the hormone of stress, that is already affecting the development of your brain and When you think about all the stress that there is in pregnant women, it is not surprising that we have seen so many children in problems and we know from international studies by American Studies that when mothers are stressed, their placenta will naturally have more cortisol and adrenaline, the stress hormone that these children will have. more likely to have stress problems later abnormal stress hormone levels even at one year of age behavioral problems learning problems, etc., which tells us a lot about why adjusted children, adopted children have so many more problems , that's another topic, but the next paragraph is The key interactions of genes and experiences literally shape the circuits of the developing brain and it is essential that, in other words, it is critically influenced by the circuits, that chemistry of the brain and what centers, what circuits, what systems develop and what neuronal chemicals we will be. present what amounts depends on the early environment and is rapidly influenced by the mutual responsiveness of adult-child relationships, particularly in early childhood;
In other words, the most important influence shaping physiological brain development is the quality of parent-child relationships now. when parents are stressed or distracted or workaholics like I am a young parent if there is instability financial problems relationship problems unresolved trauma on the part of the parents loving parents who are just stressed that will interfere with development of the child's brain that's why we're seeing so much weight, um Deena, a lot more autism and a lot of other problems because of the stress in society that affects the parenting environment in other words, yes, there are physiological problems with the brain, but no It's a genetic problem, it's actually an early experience, so when you look at brain scans of adults who have problems.
Just like an addict's brain scans, you're not just looking at the impact of addiction, you're also looking at the impact of childhood trauma and childhood stress, and this has been proven time and time again. over and over again so that there is no separation between physiology and psychology, so if you come to me like an addict and tell me I have this or that thing and I ask you what it does for you and you tell me it numbs the pain that my question is where did you develop the pain? what happened and then we have an investigation and it no longer becomes something embarrassing that you have chosen this note does not mean that you are stuck in it because you have this problem generator we understand it as an adaptive response to something that happened and we can heal that the reason why Addiction treatment is failing because doctors do not understand whether they are still dealing with the effects of addiction and the behaviors that were the effects of addiction. addiction, but not the cause, which is childhood distress and the impact on distress that occurs in adulthood;
In other words, hugs are prisoners of childhood, and therefore current treatment methods in psychiatry and addiction medicine in child psychiatry address effects rather than causes. and that's why we're so ineffective at it. I have a lot of questions, yeah, so you know, the first one is just to underline something which is that you know that our software in genetics plays a role, but it doesn't. a complete explanation of what we are discussing here genes can predispose but they do not predetermine what exactly it is no, there are very few genetic diseases, there is one in my family, muscular dystrophy, if you have the gene, you will have the disease and Honey, my mother had predetermined than only very diverse predetermined diseases, let me tell you about an interesting study from Australia and New Zealand, they looked at a group of people for aggressiveness and found that the most aggressive people had a certain genetic variant, do you think they found the gene for the aggression no, they didn't because the least aggressive people in the group had the same gene, so the most aggressive and the least aggressive shared the same gene compared to the average, the gene couldn't have been for aggression now if De In fact, I analyzed the life stories of those people.
The most aggressive people had grown up in problematic homes, sometimes abusive but always very stressed. The less aggressive ones were raised in very welcoming homes. What was the sensitivity gene? The more sensitive you are, the more you feel. You will be affected when you grow up in a peaceful home. You will be much more peaceful when you grow up in a stormy home. You will be much more aggressive. So there are these predispositions, but they are not for specific diseases, they are for the right temperament, which means that you will be more or less affected by the environment and therefore, yes, there are some genes that eliminate peas, there will not be In both animal studies in monkeys and in human studies, that even you find a gene that for similar reasons predisposes someone to addiction, if that animal or that human being is raised in good circumstances, their risk of addiction is not greater than that of creatures without that gene, so it is simply not a genetic disease, an effect that occurs.
Families do not test anything because they know, as I always point out, that I am a doctor and if two of my children become doctors, there is no danger, but if they did, that would not prove that the practice of medicine is a genetic disease, okay, okay, that's not a general explanation, you have that too. I mean, because of some of the books I've written, I hear a lot of successful and unsuccessful stories about people trying to lose. weight and they often say, well, it runs in my family like my parents are fat, my grandparents are fat and they ask me: do you have pets?
I'll say yes, I'll say your pets are overweight, no, yes, my pets are fat, okay? Clearly, that's not just a genetic issue. Well, can I say something about that? Yes, but have you heard of the studies on adverse childhood experiences? The ACA studies the average child. a questionnaire or a series there is a test that you can say yes, so the studies on adverse childhood experiences were done in California with, I think, seventeen, fourteen or seventeen thousand adults, mostly Caucasian, half of them with university education and analyzed the relationship between childhood adversity. and outcomes in adulthood and an adverse childhood experience was defined as physical, sexual, or emotional abuse an apparent divorce being incarcerated violence in the family apparent being addicted adding an apparent mental illness dying these were the main ones and for each of these experiences adverse childhood risks of addiction exponentially increase risk of autoimmune diseases increase risk of depression increase risk of ADHD increase risk of relationship problems STD everything increases now you know how these studies started these studies started at the clinic obesity dr.
Vincent Felitti was an internist from San Diego, a wonderful guy, a deep thinker and a researcher, they realized that in this clinic, with rigorous dietary control and exercise, they could help people lose weight, but what do you think? What couldn't they do? They couldn't guarantee that they would continue with that. behaviors when they live exactly, they couldn't stop them from keeping it that way and then Felitti did something that I have to say is unusual for a doctor, he listened to his patients and they said to him, don't you understand, we are repressing our pain, all this is based on shelter trauma, so obesity itself is a response to childhood trauma, it's just another addiction, yes, I could go on in many ways, but studies on adverse childhood experiences have been repeated numerous times in other countries, always with the same. results and so that the obesity epidemic right now is not just an epidemic of junk food and sedentary lifestyles, that is true, yes, those are contributing factors, but the underlying basis is that people self-soothe stress in their lives, so it's really an epidemic of stress says: let mego back to another point or something that you said in passing and that I would love to go into a little more detail and that's how at that moment I gave the example.
I think we were arguing well, in fact, before that, let me mention. one thing, so I have had my entire genome sequenced mm-hmm, a predisposition to alcoholism is very prevalent in my family from a genetic point of view just from a software basis, however, I mentioned before that I never had problems with alcohol with stimulants, so maybe just a footnote, but to the point I would love to ask you and then I would really love to hear what you do with patience once you start observing their pain and the tools you use or the approaches that you use, but the one about epiphanies for me in the last two years, hmm, has been looking at my coping mechanisms very differently and what I mean by this is that for a long time I had certain behaviors, certain flaws that I hated, which of course means I hate a part of me, that's right, and that included angry responses, yes, stimulant use, whatever, a close friend of mine who is a therapist, but I have never hired him as a therapist and there are certainly many. from bad therapists which I think is a separate issue, however, he was helping and I'm sure we'll come back to this, but in preparation for a very controlled supervised psychedelic experience, I was helping another friend of ours mm-hmm prepare this. it's with MDMA this is with ayahuasca food cocaine from Iowa and this person had several addictions and she hated these addictions and she said: I hate them I realized that they are terrible that they have ruined my life You were ruining my life and it was all a negative relationship with these behaviors and he said: Did they ever serve you?
Have they ever helped you? What exactly did they do for you? And she and she described how they helped her cope with very difficult circumstances early on and she said that maybe what you should do as an exercise and what we can do is to effectively give thanks for those behaviors that have suffered for the role that they played and for the need that they filled. and then recognize that you thank them effectively for their duty but let them go because they are no longer needed and that was a big revelation for me and I started to this coincides with a number of things and I want to get us out of the way, but I started using something called meditation of loving kindness or Metta my Metta Emmy TT, a meditation that was introduced to me by a gentleman at Google, actually a former chade-meng tan at Google, and then also by Jack Kornfield, who actually reiterated it to me, of course, but I never applied it to myself.
I always applied this love. -kindness meditation towards other people and what they recommended to me is that I apply that loving kindness towards them, towards the younger Tim, towards the other versions of Tim who had these behaviors that I had come to hate and resent and, in fact, Thank you for the role. they played, for example, with that anger, that anger was the fuel that got me out of Long Island and where I grew up there, a lot of serious problems with drugs, especially with opiates, my best friend had fentanyl, many of my friends are addicted to opiates and I grew up with many have died and I came out because I was angry partly I think that was the fuel but that fuel ended up being very corrosive in the long run, but to come to terms with that I had to stop resenting it and I guess maybe it's more of a confession than a question, but your comment reminded me of it and perhaps as a follow-up I love hearing it and we We can take it wherever we want, of course, but once you've shifted the focus from the why of addiction to the why of pain and you start working with someone, what approaches have you found to help, what tools, so I highly commend your friends approach, it's exactly what the approach I would take and I call it compassionate research, so compassionate research now why did I do this but mmm why did I do this well the first is not a question, it is a statement, it is a self-condemnation the second is a question mmm I wonder why he did this ah he eased my pain and then what your friend said that It helped you so thank you I love it but let it go you are absolutely right I call it the stupid friend the stupid founders are the ones who helped you in a particular way at a certain time but can't learn that that way no longer works right instead of helping is not hurting so he is a friend because he is really trying to help but he is stupid because he is not learning that you are no longer those three years even though they are five years even though they are fifteen years you know so this does not lead to the issue of trauma because it is one thing to recognize that all this originates from a sharp pain and quite another to transform that pain and to do that we have to understand what trauma is, that is why people usually think that trauma is what happens to you, so the trauma is a divorce when you were little and your parents fighting.
The trauma is your mother's depression. Trauma like your father's alcoholism. Trauma is your parents' argument. Physical or sexual trauma. abuse or some loss those are not the traumas those are traumatic but the trauma is not what happens to you the traumas what happens inside you and as a result of these traumatic events what happens inside you is that you disconnect from your emotions and disconnected from your body and you have difficulty being in the present moment and you develop a negative view of your world and a negative view of yourself and a defensive view of other people and these perspectives keep showing up in your life in the present because you don't We are stupid friends, so the point is not just to recognize what happened at ten, fifteen and thirty, many years ago, but to actually recognize its manifestations in the present moment and transcend them, and you do all of that by reconnecting with yourself and restoring the connection. with your body mainly and the material movements that you lost and once you do that, when you find these things again, then you have what we call recovery because what does it mean to recover something?
You need to find it again, so what do people find when they find themselves recovering and the loss of self is the essence of trauma, so the real purpose of addiction treatment, mental health treatment, any type of Healing is reconnection for people who are listening and want to reconnect with themselves and their bodies, for example, what recommendations could you have if it's things they can do or resources they can consult or both or something else, what recommendations I'm sure That it could, I'm actually one hundred percent sure because I've had people come and for the first time.
In this podcast I talk about the interns being sexually abused as children and what they did to help them recover from that. Many people listening, I'm sure you have addictions, both past traumatic experiences and traumas, what recommendations could you give them, so I want to say first all that for trauma you don't need therapy for traumatic events, so there are two ways to look at it, one It's that bad things happen, I shouldn't have, we've talked about that, but the other way you get traumatized is when good things happen. should have happened, so if the good and good things didn't happen, that should have happened, I'm sorry, so when you look, look at the Shroud of omission, the trauma connection to the parents, it's not that they didn't love you , it's not that they didn't do the best they could. but they were too stressed, traumatized, distracted, so you didn't get the kind of attention, the kind of acceptance and the kind of attunement that you needed, that in itself can make you disconnect from yourself, the child needs that acceptance, that connection, that tuning.
Our brain development requires that our emotional development demands it and when we do not achieve it, not because the parents do not love us but because some people, due to their own problems, we can also suffer that disconnection, so that is what I call developmental trauma and now how? do we connect well? There are many forms of therapy. It is very difficult for anyone to do this on their own. Some people do it. I certainly couldn't do it alone. I have needed a lot of help in terms of therapy. It helps me understand what happened to me and for there to be a reason for it, then it's not me anymore, I'm not someone to be ashamed of, I'm just someone developed along certain lines for some very good reasons, but it's not in my character anymore. deep and it's not who I am and I don't have to be like that.
It is a relief to know that they are not generic programs either. I am condemned to remain like this. be number one, number two, you have to reconnect with the body, there are several body therapies, my friend Peter Levine and his somatic experience, walking tigers, awakening time, awakening with her, awakening the tiger, it was his first book and has written many wonderful books since then. somatic experience, his method is called and he develops it. It is brilliant. There is EMDR eye movement desensitization reprogramming, which is a way to bypass the conscious mind and get to the emotional brain and is faster than talk therapy alone.
It is combined with talk therapy, but it takes you beyond just a conscious defensive ego mind, there is the emotional freedom tapping that people do, there are racial variations, there are sensory motor integration techniques, there are traditional therapies like yoga, now yoga was not simply a physical modality when The first yoga developed actually means unity, so the very essence of yoga is to regain that unity not only with ourselves but also with the greater creation and therefore the Yoga when practiced as intended, not just hot yoga where you get a good workout, that's great. and not against, but I'm talking about intentional yoga with a meditative aspect that is taught through a number of disciplines, bodywork of all kinds can pause for a second, do you practice yoga and if so, what type do you practice? ?
I have always said that with my ADHD I am not a yoga person. I can't do it until you. Half a time ago I met a yogi, his name is Sadhguru and he is an Indian yogi with many followers. I was very skeptical but I met the guy. I know I have a daily 50 minute yoga practice that I did this morning before I got to the end and this made a huge difference in my life with my ADHD mind. I really have trouble just sitting there when I sit on the meditation cushion my mind is everywhere, but with yoga, which is more body based, I can be much more present, there is a meditation component, so The answer is yes, if you had asked me 18 months ago, I would have said no.
I support it, but I don't do it, but I am now a very committed practitioner and it has really made a difference. Is there a particular type of yoga that people could Google or learn more about? I am not a yoga expert and there are many forms of yoga that other people more knowledgeable than me could recommend, but the one I learned is called internal engineering and it is taught by any of the followers of said gurus and you can search for internal engineering online, go figure when I recommended it to you. France and others have all been grateful, so I can highly recommend it.
Usually to me there is what seems to be a cult around the guy that I don't take too much in particular, but he is the genuine article in terms of having a deep experience and being. able to try to send that experience to others and create a practical system around it to make it work for me. I'm not here to recruit anyone else, but since you ask, no, no, that's just my fans appreciate it, yeah, well, you know I'm not going to blame my fans. I really like the details, yeah, so internal engineering can be searched online and it's taught here in the United States and in Canada internationally, and I, but I interrupted you, you're about to mention, I think another technique or modality that can help, I talked, for example, about somatic experiencing, EMDR, emotional freedom technique, sensory motor integration technique, yoga techniques and then there is something that comes after that, well, about ten years ago I started work with psychedelics now, if 15 years ago you were If you asked me if you would ever work with psychedelics as a healing modality, I would have said you're crazy, but then through a series of events I might become aware of the potential role of psychedelics in healing and I have been working with them for ten years and there is another powerful method and they are not for everyone and I have to emphasize that any modality that you choose of a psychedelic nature you have to do it with adept practitioners with deep integrity and deep knowledge and experience, but in such hands and in such context it can be like a highway to self-awareness, not in isolation, but opening doors that might otherwise take years, so it is not unusual for me to direct the psychedelic session to someone or a series of group sessions. or in an individual setting and have them say that it was like ten years of psychotherapy in one day and that I myself have had the same experience, so, again, it should not be isolated from other types of work and it should be integrated, but it is not a powerful way. work and, of course, howI know that you are personally aware, there is a growing movement among psychologists, therapists, psychiatrists, doctors and other healers to find ways to incorporate psychedelic healing into the broader therapeutic scheme that you mentioned in relation to EMDR and some of these others . techniques that you listed that is a powerful way to bypass the egoic mind, yes, and certainly psychedelics literally manifest the mind, that is correct, in that case our only very powerful tool, or are they tools that have been used for millennia in contexts traditional or ceremonial. around the world for many purposes, but including bypassing the rational analytical prefrontal cortex in many capacities.
Now you mentioned a series of events and I'll come back to psychedelics and ask you which one you've chosen and why you should work, but if you can mention any of them, what were the series of events that probably led you to miss psychedelics? In 2008, my book about addiction in the realm of hungry ghosts, Close Encounters with Addiction, was published in Canada and very quickly became a number one national bestseller, subsequently published in the United States as well and was on a tour of book promotion and people could ask me what you know about addictions and I was because treatment with ayahuasca is a Peruvian or Amazonian vine that is turned into a drink that has psychedelic properties.
He didn't know anything in the following speech. At the next event, someone else would ask what do you know, brother. I was going to have another addiction. I think I started to get annoyed with that, like they would leave me alone. I just wrote a book. I've spent years researching my life experience and all kinds of things. A scientific exploration began, he asked me about something I knew and then I realized that maybe the universe was knocking on my door and someone said did you know you could experience it here in Vancouver? There was a Peruvian shaman leading some ceremonies in Vancouver, so who could have said no when I jumped up and sat in this tent with 50 other people? 50 yes that's what I thought I set it up it's not what I recommend but that's how they set it up they played beautiful music and there was a little baby in the room mom and dad were there for the experience the baby was in the room and the baby was cooing and tears started running down my face and these weren't tears of sadness, they were tears of joy and I went in.
I touched with a love so deep that I had never consciously experienced before and if there were tears of love and it was not love for anyone in particular, it was fair and then I saw in all the ways that I had closed my heart against the love in my life and how I betrayed love in my personal relationship with my spouse and my children and in other ways, so I just had this experience of love is something deep and universal and life-defining, but something that I have been cut off from in so many ways and I got it because I closed my heart against love precisely because when I was wrong about the small thing I felt so hurt that I went to my mother's mental states she couldn't answer me when I needed to It wasn't her fault, but she couldn't and then when I had a year, she gave me to a stranger to save my life and I didn't see her for a month, which is a great explanation for that for a second, so again. es Budapest Hungary Seconal or January the Russians are surrounded by Budapest and are not fighting the Germans the government in power is a right-wing fascist anti-Semitic military force and although the deportations of Jews had stopped the Germans had half a million euphoric Hungarian Jews in three or four months, but now the Hungarian fascists for killing Jews in Budapest and even in the house where my mother lived, so my mother handed me over to a stranger on the street, a Christian woman, because I didn't know whether to be alive or dead the next day well ok I would be and I was quite sick so I didn't see her from us which I experience a deeply abandoned house I could experience it then my heart closes against love and I got all this and then I got that if this plant this plant that I eat You say it manifests, the mind can show me both ways in which I have closed myself off and that I don't need to because love is still there, what healing potential it has now.
I wish I could say that after that experience. I became a loving house and a loving human being. I didn't, it's not as simple as my wife could tell you, however she opened the door for me and I walked right in, however the thought I had was that I didn't have induction. I had no introduction. I had no post-processing. Ayahuasca is a medicinal plant that has been used in the Amazon basin for hundreds of years, perhaps more so in its cultural context in a tribe in a town where people know each other. Would they meet the shaman where? shared the same assumptions in the same story that is not the same as a group of Westerners unknown to each other get together to spend a night drinking and then go their separate ways, they agreed, so immediately the question that came to mind was how can we create an environment that at least resembles the original environment as best we can, so we came up with the idea of ​​treating a small number of people with properly trained shamans who have integrity and deep experience, and with me facilitating the preparation of the people. and its post-ceremony integration, so I've been doing that for 10 years and I've learned a lot, we made mistakes but it evolved and the essence of it is that people don't come into this cold, they come into the preparation in a safe environment where very soon the group becomes like a family to each other, which means that not only do they love and support each other, but they also activate each other and I mean, I basically tell people I guess you went back and found your virgin and everything you hated about your rush movie will show up here, but in the context where that's sure to happen, I've seen a lot of great curations.
I have had people with multiple suicide attempts heal from depression. I have seen people improve a lot with autoimmune diseases. I have seen people deal with all types of addictions and life problems. Problems in relationships arise from this much more. I did it later, so that was my personal experience now that Dan introduced me to the whole world of psychedelics and I realized that there is a lot of research being done these days that his organization Maps is a multidisciplinary association for psychedelic studies, which is a group of psychologists, psychiatrists, doctors. doctors, therapists, counselors, people interested in scientifically studying the role of psychedelics in healing, and as you probably know, there have been interesting studies done on psilocybin mushrooms and studies on end-of-life anxiety, which are revolutionary in the use of mdma assisted psychotherapy and can be the medical name of a technical name for ecstasy again, in the right environment and with the right leadership, they have proven to be very powerful healing modalities, so there is a whole new resurgence of psychedelic research in several different areas, some of which Some of the plants are man-made, but there is a whole world that I have met and learned a lot in the last ten years and again I practice it in my own healing work and I'm also interested as a method. participant, so I'd love to add a few things to your second comment and then ask a bunch of questions about the first.
Yes, for people who are interested in learning more about the current scientific studies and mechanisms of action related to some of these compounds. and what is being done, there are a number of very interesting and very competent organizations, as far as I can tell, Maps is one that can be measured and, in fact, I will see the founder Rick Doblin in a few days, there is the Hefner Institute. The one I've worked with is primarily run by MDS and PhD or at least the board of directors etc., it's made up of scientists and doctors, it was through the Hefner foundation and also directly with Johns Hopkins, so I've had some involvement with the South. seventh with psilocybin studies and, in fact, thanks to many of you who served by hitting the microphone, many of you in my audience who helped through a crowdfunding campaign to raise money for a study at Johns Hopkins related to the treatment of treatment-resistant depression, yes, that's it. seven, so Haftar instituted a great organization to do research and then you, Sona, which I think is primarily focused on psilocybin, while Maps at this point has done a lot of great work on many levels, including helping to facilitate MDMA being designated as a breakthrough therapy and is effectively accelerated.
In the phase three trials done by the FDA, that's correct, yes, and these are all organizations that I would encourage people to investigate and it's really an exciting time and also a fragile time when it comes to these compounds that certainly They have historically been shown to accept MDMA, let's just look. in studies, many of which were conducted from the '50s and '60s, looking at the clinical effectiveness of using these compounds for everything from alcoholism to nicotine addiction and many of the things you mentioned well in order, which is little known, but that Bill Wilson dr.
Bill, who financed one of AAA's financiers, actually had some powerful experiences with LSD and what helped him was his spiritual growth. Listen, hey, they don't talk about it a lot, but it's a fact, if I'm a parent, I usually say like As much as I support the 12 steps, what I also don't usually talk about is the trauma that addiction first causes and Bill Wilson himself was a traumatized child, he was abandoned by his parents, I mean, he was very young, so it's interesting that AAA for all the good work that he does and that I support.
I don't support forcing people to undergo any particular form of treatment, but as a self-selected form of treatment it can be very helpful for many people, but they don't talk about it. two very interesting things, one is the psychedelic part and the other is the Toronto part, yes, no, it's for me to just look at my own childhood experiences and explore recovery defined as you defined it, yes, in recent years, especially in the last six. For months it's been fascinating and frustrating to discover and try to piece together these various elements, but what's the frustrating part?
Well, there may be, but I couldn't find a one-stop shop that checked all the boxes correctly. Not true so it's been an exercise in collecting various tools and putting them together like you said it does amazing work and what they've done in terms of a free service distributed with social responsibility behind it is amazing so psychedelic component that Bill really wanted, as I understand it, to take one of the steps, and needless to say, it was difficult to get widespread leadership support for that and then there's the trauma part, so these are all tools in the toolkit. tools that people can use for their own kind of personalized approach in some ways, going back specifically to ayahuasca and just as a caveat I should point out why I think these tools.
I know these tools are very powerful. I am familiar firsthand with past experiences and have had I have been very engaged in this scientific community for some time now. They can be misused. There are many charlatans and unfortunately there are more. You already know. There are many. There are some very powerful shaman healers who unfortunately exploit people sexually and financially. It's very common. Yes, and this, of course, is not alone. restricted to the school world of Iowa, it also happens in a spiritual world of spiritual leaders with tremendous power, tremendous healing influence who at the same time have exploited men and women and created all kinds of additional trauma, so unfortunately when you have so much power and you don't have If you haven't totally finished your integration work, you can start to misuse that power and that happens in all healing modalities, as we know, but it certainly also happens in a psychedelic world, yes, it's very , I wish I could say it's weird, it's not, but it's something. to protect yourself, especially when you are in that vulnerable state, so I would recommend that people watch a documentary called Kumari, which is very much worth watching and the brief description is that he is an Indian filmmaker who begins to study various gurus and healers in the US hoping to believe that the original impulse was simply to make a documentary about charlatans and then he went to India and said they are just as bad here and said they are just as bad or worse and decides to become a guru as an experiment and it's a very thought-provoking documentary that I think will actually become the kind of false or right, yes, I remember it, yes, and he reveals it, yes, I don't want to give too much away, but it's very well done, It's worth watching because it helps you prepare.
I think psychologically you should not get lost in a dangerous way and here is the problem. What I said about the essence of trauma is that you loseconnection with yourself and that means you lose connection with your gut feelings, you know? As long as your gut feelings are with you and you honor them, they will protect you, but the very feeling of trauma is the loss of that, yes, meaning that when you lose connection with God's feelings, then you are very vulnerable to being exploited and when You talk to people who were exploited in any context, psychedelic or not, if you ask them if you have some sort of vague feeling that this isn't quite right, they'll say yes, but I don't.
They didn't hear it, yes, and the fact that they didn't hear it is already a marker of trauma, so since most of us are traumatized people seeking healing, we are also vulnerable people seeking healing and this is what some of these people can explode, so the same portal to healing that is opening the vulnerability that we have closed ourselves against is also the portal to potential losses, so people have to do their due diligence, yes, and I'm not trying to create paranoia here, but people just You should be careful, you just mentioned something that I would really love to pause and emphasize that you mentioned a few things, so number one is that your instinct/is like physiological intuition could help you mm-hmm and that's something that for a lot of reasons I muted or completely ignored for a long time so it's been a process of reacquainting myself with that and I would say two things that I found helpful and if you have any comments on The second one in particular, I'd love to hear some.
Dramatically decreasing my caffeine intake, which I found was almost like turning up the volume on static, made it very difficult for me to read or feel, among other things, I was using it for perhaps many reasons, but it had the side effect of at least silencing it. . That's why I did it unconsciously. Many of these feelings were actually a video that was recommended to me but it corresponds to a book called The Gift of Fear by Gavin de Becker and who actually owns a company that offers executive security and protection services. so you should keep in mind that you may not always want to ask a hairdresser if you need a haircut, so keep that in mind and also briefly point out the benefits of some of these reactions or emotional states that we are prone to. label as negative, yes, and as you said, not to make anyone paranoid, but rather to inform them that these are risks that currently exist and one of the hopes, certainly, is to ultimately investigate these compounds better after that they have been really unfair, but for understandable reasons, politicized and put. in the same program in the United States as heroin and cocaine to reprogram them to be prescribed, if that happens, the ability to certify therapists to regulate and maintain a broad type of quality control increases, so that is also So.
One of the hopes is that that will decrease the likelihood of bad actors and allow for appropriate punishment for bad actors because, look, as we know, even in legitimate legalized professions it still happens, this is what happens, it's the most, like this that ultimately you know the gut feelings are still there. the best answer and let me first address why we turn off our gut feelings, if I may, then a human being has two fundamental needs, apart from the physical needs in childhood, one is for attachment, now attachment is closeness and closeness with another human being.
Being for the sake of being cared for or for the sake of caring for other human beings like mammals and even birds are creatures of attachment that we have to connect and attach ourselves to because otherwise we don't survive if there is no one who is motivated to take care that we become attached to ourselves in that way and we are not motivated to become attached to others, we simply cannot survive. One additional thing is that endorphins, which are the internal body chemicals like opiates, which heroin and all the other opiates are similar to, have to facilitate attachment, so if you take baby mice and deactivate them and orphaned receptors so that they don't have opiate endorphin activity in their brain, they won't cry for help and they will be separated from their mothers, which would mean that they would die in the wild and that goes back to what happens in early childhood, when there is stress and Trauma, these endorphin systems don't develop, and then when people use heroin, it feels like a gentle hug of war, they feel love and connection for the first time.
That's why it's so powerful, but we had this need for attachment without obviously the human infant was the most helpless, the most dependent, the least mature of any creature in the universe at birth, it cannot survive without attachment and that attachment relationship, given that I am the longest period of development of any creature that you know well until adolescence and and beyond attachment is a non-negotiable need, but we have another need which is authenticity, now authenticity, although the self means being connected to us ourselves, simply knowing what we feel and being able to act accordingly, that means our gut feelings, so let's see how human beings evolved 400 thousand years ago and 400 thousand years or so of this species existing on earth how we lived there we lived in cities and houses and so on millets are there in nature until very recently in human existence now How long do you survive in nature if you are not connected to your instincts?
Not for much longer. Not for much longer. If you start using your intellect instead of your instincts, you simply won't survive, so that's a powerful survival need as well. So, attachment is a survival need. Authenticity is a survival need, but what happens if your authenticity threatens your attachment relationships? in homes when there was an ilism of anger and they were terrified that the same expression of anger would give you the message that good children don't get angry, the message you get is not that good look is don't get angry, but Little children angry are not loved because your parents are now sullen, they don't look at you, they talk to you harshly, they don't love you, you don't experience love at that moment, now you have a diverse attachment, guess what you are.
We are going to suppress authenticity every time and this is an obvious connection with ourselves and with our instincts so that, strange as it may seem, that dynamic that is essential for human survival in a natural environment does not become a threat to our survival. in this more modern environment where to remain authentic is to threaten attachment and then we give up your authenticity and then we wonder who the hell are you and whose life is this and who is experiencing all this and this life you don't know and who am I really and there is where the reconnection has to happen that is what healing happens is with that reconnection but it is because of that conflict the tragic conflict in childhood between authenticity and attachment that most of us face that we get lost in this connection are good feelings there are so many directions We can continue with this and I'm so glad you shared it because I had a huge observation that has had a huge impact on some of my close friends and it's something I was really exposed to today because our mutual friend Vicky recommended that I he would ask.
To expand on it, what I would love to return to if we can. Can I say something? Yes, of course, sorry, there is a photo of Elvis Presley in this building. Yes, then, his song that I play at my retreats or at my events. all the time it's called anyway you'll love me remember how it goes I couldn't touch it for you but it goes anywhere you love me that's how I'll be in your hands my heart is clay I'll do it Be strong like a mountain or weak like a willow I'll be powerful I'll be like a little baby anyway you love me like that I'll be now that's considered a love song right?
It's a song of lack of love hmm it's a song that says chest close to me, I'll give up anything about myself, just accept me the way you want me to be, so it's a very sad song and when you hear him sing, there is a deep sadness in she and some of presley's power actually came from her own suffering, she wasn't here singing a song, she was actually infusing her with all the emotions of laughter, so although it is presented as a love song, it is actually a song about the loss of love and that's the baby situation that says just love me, I'll be whatever you want me to be and that's the tragic conflict, there's an attachment and an authenticity, yeah, this relates exactly to where I was going. , yes, which is related to your previous and subsequent work with psychedelics.
Yeah, and for people who are watching this or listening to this, I come back to this not because I want to emphasize that psychedelics are not for everyone and, in my experience, the vast majority I should say, in my observation, the vast majority of psychedelics. It is very responsible to use and I wouldn't recommend it because it can, it certainly can cause a fair amount of damage if not done in a safe and supervised manner, but the pre and post work could apply to many modalities. I mean that's how it is in this case. This example they talked about applies to psychedelics, but you could correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like it could very easily apply to getting into any intense or unusual modality, not like VIP, passing a medication for a possible, yeah, like oh yeah .
This Tony Robbins date with destiny that I mentioned is certainly intense and very, very different, very powerful, which is why I come back to this, but we can discuss it as it applies specifically to psychedelics and even specifically to ayahuasca, which is the main one. compound we're talking about, which is really just for people wondering, is one of the reasons why ayahuasca is really complicated, is that it's different, let's say I'll go off topic for a second, but it's still the topic, it's not entirely like that. mushrooms and what people consider the main psychoactive molecule of psilocybin is a little bit different, it's more old-fashioned, it's like if you go to a bar and you order vodka and soda almost everywhere you go, vodka and soda, yeah, very Similarly, assuming the pour is the same, yes, ayahuasca is rather old-fashioned, there are some ingredients that are almost always there, so if you go to, say, I mean, Arco de Dios or other parts of Peru, it will be mainly the ayahuasca vine plus a plant called Czech Crown, yes, or a psychotria viridis which is a DMT.
I think my guess is that it must be a DMT campaign containing a plant that becomes orally active through MA or monoamine oxidase inhibitors in the vine, how they figured that out is a completely separate story. It's a bit wild, the plants told them it's the short version, I know, although I have a scientist friend who gave me a simple initial explanation which, well, is essentially the rest in mind when I got better, they also told me that the plants told us they said. which on some level I accept, but I just want to say something here because we're talking at length about psychedelics.
I don't create the impression that this is the majority of my life or work, does it? things one, two or three weeks a year, so it's not the majority of what I do, but it is a very interesting part because it illuminates everything else that I do in the sense that it goes very deep now this scientific friend when science A friend of mine says that they were actually, let's say, using ayahuasca and boiling it because IOSCO itself, the vine has some secretarial gains on its own without the chacruna, yes, very strong audio, yes, yes, so what happens is that some sugar leaves will fall into it. um inevitably over the years that's going to happen or they say, oh well, this combination is even more powerful, yeah, so it doesn't have to be as esoteric as it could have been a pretty simple discovery, you know, who knows which one.
It's the real story, but in any case. In this case, the preparation and the processing, yes, and I will just add welcome to that, which is a combination that is also had in certain regions and is found in other places outside of Peru. Yes, certainly, in the greatest ayahuasca as a sacrament. The churches based are actually outside of Brazil, yes, but it can also be ayahuasca vine and yes, hay, which is a different plant. It also contains DMT, but for some people it's a substantially different experience, yes, and then the only reason I mention this. it's so people realize why I'm especially concerned when people get all cocky about "hey, my friends are ordering ayahuasca from Hawaii and we're going to put it in a slow cooker and have it at their house this weekend." ". idea of ​​many many centers, even well-intentioned centers in the supply that will also put other things in the concoction because they think that foreigners want more of , which is even a doctor, which is even scarier in some ways, coke is not that scary, so keep in mind that when you say ayahuasca it's not you, but when people think that ayahuasca is not a standardized rose that you are receiving and I was recently on a retreat in Costa Ricawhere really four different ceremonies from nine states at each moment with a different mix Oh God, so one night with the Peruvian people prepare the tradition one night with the yah-hey from Colombia and you know, it's who prepares it how much they bleat for what combination what intention and so on, that's generally true and really the people that I worked with know that this is not always that it's always the same drink every night, but it's more or less the same preparation, the same preparation, yeah , yeah, so I eliminated us. a bit of a rabbit hole, but the question I have is with all your clinical experience in recognizing that this is a therapy, but it is a complementary therapy, it is not used in isolation, yes, and through trial, error and design, it has arrived at a place now. where maybe you have certain best practices or approaches for pre-, pre-, and post-work mm-hmm, could you tell us about one or both?
Ideally, maybe exercises or questions that people could think of on their own. I know it's hard. I might recommend it in isolation, but I'd love to hear any details you're willing to share about the pre- and post-show because it's so important. It's just difficult for me, at least in my limited experience, even I put too much emphasis on Iowa, so it's not specifically about treating them with the LD that I work with, but with that specifically there is a physical preparation, for example, without caffeine for a period of time, without red meat, reducing salt consumption, excluding dairy products, so there is simply physical preparation.
To cleanse the body and make it more receptive to ayahuasca emotionally and psychologically, you want someone to actually fund an intention. What I really want is this experience because intention is everything, so it's not like I'm going to do it. take things and let's see what happens why I'm here why I come what my intention is and I'm going there what I want to know what topics I'm working with to set intentions and really consider what my purpose is in In carrying out this experience, when people arrives, we don't dive into the ceremony at the gifts of my career in Iowa, we have a day and a half of group preparation for everyone to express their intention for why they are there and we explore deeply so that intention has emerged.
I'm sorry and what in your lives brought you to this point and what issues you need to address and the way I work is to take people very deeply into their core issues that they may not even be aware of, but again through this process. I called him compassionate. research and this is true whether you are working with plants or not, they can see what they are looking for and work out what they are looking for, they are looking for themselves, ultimately they are seeing the connection, but there are steps that you review and then we help them set a specific intention for that first ceremony and the specific intention is what do I want to learn tonight, not just what I want to learn in general, but what I have learned tonight about what some people want to learn.
Tell me about my fear Teach me about my pain Show me what love is Show me what courage is Show me what my strength is Look isn't it that the Iowa comes with an agenda It works through you and manifests What is there in you for your intention ? The more specific it is to you where you are in life at that moment, the more effective it will be and then the shamans will work with you during the ceremony and sing to you based on what they are learning about you at that moment. At the time when they work with you energetically, sometimes they also work practically and they both have their own experience and they share the energy of the group and then people go to sleep and the next day and then the next day we process what happened to them .
What do the visions that came to you do now? Some people have visions. Some people with more prosaic minds are like evil and everyone has visions sometimes. Yes, I originally had visions, but it's been years since I've seen anything. Some people have body experiences. People have come to him in intense emotional states that, in my opinion, are always memories of perhaps forgotten memories, but permanent memories of very early intense experiences. Some people have beautiful entities that come and teach them, you know, jaguars and anacondas or various angelic entities. I've never been blessed with that and I used to get frustrated, but really whatever experience you have, that's the experience you need to have and for me it's not about the visions or anything, it's about what the teaching is and the teaching always It is there and the purpose of the processing is to help you find the teaching that was imparted to you by whatever experience you have had, it is not about comparing your experience with the night before or two nights before or two, other people's experience, It's your specific experience, what does it mean in your life?
So this is and now after the retreat, again, whether you do a program like Vipassana, would you do the Landmark Forum or would you be ready to do a Hoffman process? Would you already do some kind of transformational work or a meditation retreat if you don't integrate what you have learned into your life and develop some practice around it, will it become a memory, at best, a nice memory, yes , straight back to intensively making hypercritical decisions, yes, 12 hours later, also absolutely. It is absolutely destructive, so the more integration we can and in general in psychedelic work, this question of integration is becoming more and more recognized and more practiced, so integration means keeping in touch with people who can help. you stay on the path and you stay in touch with the group you share the experience with, you put some practice into your life, like journaling, meditation, yoga, maybe you go back and do some more work with plants or such Maybe not, that depends entirely on you.
There's no prescription to be made there, but the point is to move from an experience that is discrete and limited in time to some kind of integration that happens over time. How is that integration formatted? Are you interacting with people at your retreat once? one week for four weeks or you have two sessions the following week, what is the actual format? Well, that's evolving and that's different for different people, but in general I would say if you can talk to someone regularly over time and if you can maintain your contact. with the group, so they are like a Facebook group.
A Facebook group where people share experiences, if they adopt certain practices and do them together or at least do them simultaneously and then talk, share about practices, these are all forms of integration that and We have mentioned that this several times applies to something more than the modality of using medicinal plants, so after this I sound like a broken record, but this is very recent after attending this Robbins fashion event with several people, including our online photo. so I think it's okay for you to say it Joe Gebbia, co-founder of Airbnb Marc Benioff, the CEO of Salesforce was sitting right behind me hmm, he wasn't part of the group but he's a friend, at least an acquaintance, who In any case, we had a great group text afterward to hold each other accountable and also to properly set up follow-up group calls, etc., a number of things that I would really like to highlight because you mentioned them and I would like to reiterate their importance and also how they transcend current work.
Yes, psychedelics. The first thing you mentioned was intentions. I will only share my experience and also a series of recommendations that helped me enormously. Yes, with the samisen job, but then with life. You set a clear intention, but clear intention is not the same as a correct expectation and if you go in and you have an expectation that you can't let go of, that's correct, you end up with a lot of people trying to whitewash? squeeze the experience and that's true in general in life and it's very true for a plant experiences, yeah, so if you get there, this is going to happen, that's good, this should happen and some people sit there all the night resisting your experience because it is not like that.
It didn't live up to their expectations, so there's a, there's a card, it's a little card that they gave me as a gift that I didn't fully appreciate until maybe a year later, I've been using it for a long time and that's how it was. that an ex-girlfriend gave me is and says the tax the task that hinders your task is your task and then you mentioned some things and you said well, that's the job for that night and I've gotten to know some People that I respect because I hesitate to use the word , but that's because they're really only two or three people I've met personally.
I would feel comfortable calling a shaman and they all have a minimum of 10-15 years of experience in a traditional apprenticeship. environment and, by the way, that means deep personal work, that means sitting alone in a jungle, getting bitten by mosquitoes. Doing that means drinking various plants, tobacco and other plants that don't make it past Iowa rent and really preparing yourself. I know someone on that path right now, let me. I tell you very deeply, it is a deeply committed job, it is not very weak here, even I would never do it, yes, it is very intense, very, very intense and I mean, there are people who spend 15 months of isolation dieting with various plants, no sex, and they attack a fork in the Highway Man, you know, you know, this won't really come in right now and what happens?
They've shared with me some examples of saying, "I've never done it well." That's not true, but in the past I've always shied away from it. of large groups which is why I was surprised to mention 50 people, but it seems very common in any group, especially larger groups, and this is true in the case of psychedelics or retreats, in fact the nickname that is gave him in the 10-day silent retreat I did, his spiritual stone, was Vipassana Vendetta, where you decide that someone who is sitting near you is coughing too hard, clearing their throat too often or whatever and you start to persevere and think about it endlessly and maybe get angry about it and since they don't look at any reaction of their own instead of looking at your reaction and you know they are the example that this particular one gave me, I'm just going to say ayahuasca door to simplify. ayahuasca stuff Doyle some work with iOS Conn told me about this, this westerner came I guess they're some kind of westerners - they're just south of the border so the North American came and was furious because someone in the group wouldn't shut up with his yelling, he was just furious about this and there are several ways an organizer can handle that, but he took the guy outside and told him that person is absolutely your job tonight and if you think about that, rethink and how to see something at which maybe historically you would respond as a problem or a nuisance or offensive and there are certain times where you have to fight and defend yourself.
I'm not saying you shouldn't do it, but I think in my case and in the case of many people, we fought too often, we were out, we got angry too often, how can you see it as a gift? How can you see it as your job? Can I give you a quote again? Yes please. I love it, he is one of my favorite teachers and his name is aah illness and he says that your conflicts, all the difficult things are problematic situations in your life, they are not coincidence or chance, they are actually yours, they are specifically designed by you. specifically for you by a part of you that loves you more than anything else the part of you that loves you more than anything else has created obstacles to carry yourself you are not going to go in the right direction unless that there is something strange on the side telling you to look here, that part is that you love yourself so much, that part of you loves you so much that it doesn't want you to miss the opportunity, it will take extreme measures to wake you up. up, he will make you suffer a lot if you don't listen, what else can he do?
That is its purpose and I found this to be true for physical illnesses and mental problems and everything you have to see what the teaching is here for us to look at. all of these things as problems to get rid of, which is what the personality wants to do, or we can see them as learning opportunities, which is what the real you wants to do now. Two things, one is you talked about intention in life, my wife and I. I had a vacation recently in Costa Rica, one party was a work holiday, but part of it was just a holiday.
Traditionally, we've had a terrible time doing Christmas parties because my books are them and once they go on vacation, I just collapse and meet my wife. It's dragging a corpse, you know, because I'm a workaholic, you know, and I had no free space, so this time we really want to do a vacation with intention, this is nothing more than psychedelics, just to do it we set an intention. Is it our intention and do we have an intention? I learned from a couple of my wife's teachers what structures we want to put in place to supporthuman evolution now they find themselves in the company of other children guess what they imprint on their peer group and now you have immature creatures influencing each other in an immoderate way and this happens through social media, it happens in personal contact and when that happens, parents are relegated to the background, they usually get frustrated. they do not become more authoritarian or they simply give up and the children, therefore, do not grow, do not mature and develop all kinds of problems, not because the parents do not love them but simply because in this culture the connection between children and parents have been really disturbed and how we keep that connection is the topic of waiting for your children, so three of my books are what on my own, this one that I wrote with Gordon, my next book, which is about the unity of mind- body and health and disease and that's a conversation that you know I could have another time, but again, where I show that cancer, autoimmune disease, ALS, multiple sclerosis, Parkinson's, colitis, Crohn's disease, chronic fatigue, fibromyalgia, are not accidental and separate physical events that had to do with the scientifically proven fact that the mind and the body cannot be separated and when things happen emotionally they will also happen physiologically; in fact, it cannot be any other way and that the emotional system in our brains in our bodies is an important part of the same system that also governs the immunity, no joke, neurological response and hormonal response and therefore, When our patterns of emotional repression throughout our lives have to be repressed, you know what the main attachments are that will have a negative impact on your immune system and your hormonal apparatus and your nervous system.
Well, and that book is called When the Body Says No explores the connection between stress and illness and has been published in more than 20 countries internationally, including the United States. My latest book, and in my opinion my favorite, is the most recent in The Realm of Hungry Ghosts, Close Encounters with Addiction, which explores diction not from the point of view of the disease model or a choice model, but how it is a response to a childhood loss. stress and trauma and how to address them and also how to deal with them. If you look at the United States right now, you know what the facts are.
The most common cause of death in those under 50 is not overdose and in the US every three. weeks you have the equivalent of a 911 in turn every three weeks the 911 in terms of the number of people who die conscious is the public outcry where are the resources where is the political will where is the mobilization of the media and all the public health energies compared to what happened after 9/11 and we have Ennis every three weeks and why, because the treatment profession, the medical profession, the politicians and the legal profession do not understand trauma and its relationship with addiction, the average medical student doesn't even hear the The word trauma in four years of education doesn't mean hearing the word, much less getting a lecture on it, letting her go get a course on it.
The things I told you about brain development are still not taught in most medical schools, so we have this answer. to addiction, which is simply about dealing with the effects, the behaviors that control the manifestations and not with the causative factors, that is why people do not improve and if you look at why at this moment it is because social stress increases, economic insecurity increases, don't Don't look where opioid overdose occurs the most, it's where there are areas where there is complete discouragement and despair, so that's the book in the realm of hungry ghosts. Other than that, a lot of my talks are on YouTube, but I think that's the best hub to check it all out. what came out is my website and I hope to generate a regular podcast fairly soon if people are there over the weekend too.
I'm strong enough and organized well enough to do it, there will be a podcast and I hope so. Soon, but knowing myself, I don't want to make any promises, but that will certainly appear on my website if it happens and could you please provide your website URL once again? Okay, dr. Gabbe that day and dr. Garber Mata calmly and for everyone listening and watching, there is the camera. I'll also put it in the show notes, so for everyone, everything we've discussed, the books, the resource organizations, everything, including your website, which will be at the top, will be listed. show notes you can find on the IMTA blog slash podcast and it will be right at the top so all of that will be very easy to find at the end and we may very well end up doing that until at some point it won't . surprise me even if it's off camera, I would certainly like them to spend more time together.
Do you have any final closing words or a request or suggestion for the audience? Anything for people listening that you'd like them to consider after finishing this interview? Yes that's fine. I hope that people will treat you as a citizen in a very personal sense, not just as an interesting experience but possibly one that belongs to themselves, and that the conversation with you will help people to see themselves perhaps in a new way, with what I call compassionate inquiry, instead of judging themselves about things that went wrong or they did it to themselves or others they are curious about what made me do that they are compassionately curious because we were all born innocent and we were all born alone we wanted to be loving and loved and then something happens and then it's a difficult road back, but I hope that this conversation helps people reconnect with that path or can encourage them to continue down it and then secondly, to not see it as an individual problem, it's a social problem where we live in a society that really disconnects people and therefore it's not just an individual problem or an individual family problem, it's multi-generational.
We don't even talk about the multigenerational nature of trauma. What is it? We pass this from one generation to the next, not because we intend to do it, but since we cannot avoid it, it is necessary to analyze it in depth throughout the generations and in general terms as the function of an entire society now let me give you an example Quickly, if I may, a study last year showed that black American women the more experienced they are in careers and the higher their risk of asthma, and what does that tell us about the gift we give to people? control their asthma we give them inhalers that contain one copy of adrenaline and one copy of cortisol the stress hormones in other words asthma like Evan who would emphasize I'm not going to go into scientific details now I could but I won't but you notice this question is the A black American woman's asthma, an individual illness, was a dysfunction of the entire society and obviously it is the ultimate, so the Buddha said without the many you cannot be the one, without the one, you cannot be the many and he spoke about the interconnected core that arises from phenomena, so we are social creatures, our brains are connected to each other, dr. dan Siegel talks about interpersonal neurobiology, we are not isolated creatures, so what are you dealing with?
You have to look not only at the individual internal environment but also at the broader social and cultural environment of which you are a particular manifestation and as our mutual friend drew Polish. That's why firm P wants us to need to shift the conversation around these issues, particularly, for example, addiction, from a perspective of a just medical model that blames, shames, and excludes one that takes into account trauma and issues. social and compassionate, and that should be the same for all mental health issues as well, and whatever we look at we have to look at both the individual and the broader context.
Thank you for that and you mentioned how we all start to love and want to be loved or need love and then something happens. and it is a difficult path back and what I would like to add to that is that it is a difficult path back but it is a worthwhile path back and it is possible to find the way back if you had told me that a year ago what would have done completely. I dismissed it, but I'm in a different place now and I'd just like to thank you for helping people navigate that and it's very meaningful work that you do.
Thank you, thank you for taking the time today too, thank you and everyone who is listening. and looking, as I mentioned before, definitely also visit the show notes, revisit this, this is not one and you do something you hear and then continue like you've never heard it, please look at the show notes, look at the work from God's forums and you'll be able to Find all of that on the team registration slash podcast and to everyone listening I would just say, as always, thank you so much for joining.

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