Defending Mormonism & Joseph Smith | Jeff - Utah | Atheist Experience 21.10Jan 14, 2022
uh on that note we have uh
utaha mormon with a perspective unique to us yes cello i'm on the air gentlemen you're with john and matt hi
jeffoh hi john hi matt the weather is lovely here um i'm from oregon but i i moved to
utahabout six years ago and like most people who moved to utah you know mormons and know that mormon is almost a pejorative term, we like to be called members of the jesus church. christ of latter day saints true yes yes sir that's correct and about a year ago i committed to reading uh the book of mormon i'm sure you're familiar as a matter of fact um the creators of south park even made a musical and and not now tell my bishop but i even watched the musical before i became a latter day saint and wait and you saw you watched the musical before and you read the book of mormon and you are a mormon so yes sir and i noticed the difference when i went to the Broadway show.
I did not feel the spirit of the Lord, but when I read the book of mormon I felt the spirit as it feels good most mormons uh well most latter day saints describe it as a burning in the chest uh which I know what sounds you know maybe someone is laughing or giggling in there and thats ok its just me im just trying to figure it out so i come from a southern baptist background and while on the course i would have claimed you know i felt the presence of the holy spirit, which is similar to what you are affirming and what I am. trying to get to what it feels like and how do you know that what you are feeling is the presence of the lord well you know i have a wife and i describe it almost like i would describe love i look at my my wife and i can look into her eyes and She's a beautiful woman, huh, and it's not that her beauty is the only thing that matters, I'm also attracted to her spirit, but I guess that's the way it is, it's almost like intuition or what do detectives call those detectives shows gut instinct, yeah , so here's the Not only am I doing a whole magic show on intuition and exposing it, but you do have feelings for your wife and I have no problem with that.
Yes, yes, now you also have feelings for the Lord and you say that. and we believe, but how do you know? How do you know that the object of that feeling is real? oh well we have the book of mormon which is another testament of jesus christ so first of all i was not impressed with the first one that claimed to be a testament of jesus christ i am definitely not increasing you know impressed with the fraudulent huh but ok huh have you read the book of mormon yourself or did you see the broadway show no i have never seen the broadway show i read the book of mormon and it was talking about mormons long before south park did an episode.
What I'm asking is is it possible for someone to be in love and have warm feelings for someone or something that isn't very good? i can say it this way i really love you seen the movie the rock has sean connery and nicholas cage yes now i love that movie but of course its a fiction so i think you can love if you can possibly feel love for a fictional character like or even hate for fiction like you hate voldemort yes and love harry potter yes i will actually say i hate huh ed harris character in the rock he is planning to gas huh san francisco for sure and of course that is ed harris he's an actor and i understand the difference between fiction and non-fiction well that's the problem here the fact that you have feelings for something which for a god doesn't tell us if the god is real or not it does oh um well well and there are many false gods uh allah of the muslims and how did you determine that allah is a good false god think about the muslims they they bombed us on 9 11 that does not tell me if they have a good false god or not I in Mormonism we say because of their fruits you owe k to Now they, yes, but all that means is that their god doesn't meet the standards of the god you accept, it doesn't make him false, yes, I want to know, I want to know if which god is real and how. we know well in
mormonismwe have more than one there is god the father god the son and then the holy spirit and me its hard to describe like me i still wonder how we know which of those are real i understand mormon doctrine i know my question is how do you know if your god is real or not good we say it's a manifestation of the holy spirit what is that what does that mean it is triggered by prayer sincere prayer you have to pray sincerely you can I'm not just going half but yeah as a southern baptist when I sincerely prayed I felt something that I thought was a manifestation of the holy spirit, is that the doctrine is essentially indistinguishable.
I found out that I didn't have a good reason for saying that because I feel this that I'm talking about therefore it's true so I need to find out you know I can have all kinds of feelings and you're familiar with
smithand he saw god and to jesus in i'm familiar i'm familiar with
smithas a con man and the claim that he might be a misconception sir well i don't think it is but how do you know joseph smith saw god? I was there with a video camera or my iPhone, but okay, someone said they met the angel Moroni, yeah, how do you determine that this is actually correct?
Well, I spoke well, in fact, it is not entirely correct. word is sure is the only word i care about is whether or not it's a fact you just mentioned you just mentioned faith is there something you couldn't believe based on faith sorry i don't understand the question well let's just say i can believe blacks are superior to whites and say this is a faith based belief you might as well but you would be wrong so I might as well believe that there is an invisible group of goblins that invade my house and make it dirty every night and I might say that position is based on faith, well, you could have faith in goblins or a law, or sure, I mean, if faith can lead us to true conclusions and false conclusions, then faith is not a reliable mechanism for finding the truth. joseph smith taught that the first principle of the gospel is faith in the lord jesus why should anyone care what joseph smith taught and what he taught is that the first principle is faith and faith is in fact not a way reliable towards the truth then no.
Isn't that what makes Joseph Smith irrational and doesn't that make his teachings false? Well, and he grew up in a different time. You know he didn't have computers so he expects a second jeff. up in faith is never state and i see no reason why it would ever be a reliable path to the right truth well well in smith you know i probably wouldn't have known much of what we know i mean we know you know if you get sick you should take a tylenol joseph smith probably didn't have a tylenol that's why he had to ask for prayer well first of all we can try prayer we know it's not particularly effective that's not effective at all but that doesn't address the problem Question if faith is a reliable path to truth. true faith. call and and the young man talking about voodoo and and my eyes on phil out of my fucking place was so you introduced a new concept when i ex so faith put aside true faith for a second faith is not a trustworthy is not a reliable path to truth right well it probably isn't because it probably is sounds a lot like voodoo but now you say true faith is a reliable path to truth what is true faith and how do you know it's a reliable path towards the truth, oh, it almost sounds like a redundancy, but it sounds very circular. it sounds like you're saying that faith that leads to truth is a reliable path to truth yes or even this i use faith to be faithful or i have faith in the faith of faith i understand what you mean now because gabriel was lonely as he was as much faith in his voodoo as you do in joseph smith yes and we don't have voodoo we have what's called the melchizedek priesthood but between the three of them they sound pretty similar maybe just different names so maybe the power of God manifests in different ways maybe maybe that's the point so as soon as you start doing maybe what you're doing is a little bit of a retcon a little bit of a review it's a little bit of let me see if I you can find a way to keep making this work instead of acknowledging I tell you the foundation you started with is unreliable because if faith is unreliable and Joseph Smith appeals to faith then Joseph Smith is encouraging an unreliable mechanism to find the right truth, po r which has given me about 100 quid to think about here, yes. and then you get to the problem with the seer stones and the fact that, uh, the language he claimed to be transcribing isn't real and doesn't exist, well I did do some research on that and it's true that there is no such thing as reformed Egyptian yeah , does not exist outside of Mormonism.
I am aware of that controversy. Isn't that fundamental to your beliefs? jeff let me finish no no no no the basis is not jesus christ ok sorry the basis of
mormonismis the book of mormon yes ok and how did the book of mormon come from joseph smith stating he was translating r egyptian formed ok well that is what the world would believe. I believe that God spoke to the ancient prophets and that they wrote his words on gold plates and that centuries later, Joseph Smith had these plates that, oh, that's what I think Joseph Smith claimed he was translating. reform to the Egyptian right yes, and there is no such thing and there is no such thing as a reformed Egyptian right, well, not outside of Mormonism, no, nowhere, you can't go to a special pleading and say that all of a sudden there is an Egyptian reformation within Mormonism.
I know his religion will make it hard for you to admit that the founder of his religion was a big liar, but he was, yeah, sorry, I feel like the last person he called trying to defend voodoo. i tell you what i tell you jeff go think about that stuff because clearly you've already done some research and you're desperate to figure out a way to do this yeah but what if you can uh matt and me bel hopefully john watch the book of mormon uh show broadway was excellent incredibly funny very blasphemous and then i read the book of mormon that would be my invitation to you gentlemen well i haven't seen it i don't know if i will see it i saw the episode of south park but i had already read the book of mormon um okay and the problem here is that and i don't mean this to be an insult to you and to see the rock the rock is excellent i've seen the rock is my wife loves it it's not a particularly great movie but i did it's a funny movie no I've enjoyed it but here's the thing and I'm not saying this to insult you there are many different religions oh I bet you do some of them are more obviously false than others when l ron hubbard basically invented scientology huh just oh, he was a maniac, yeah, so he just ripped it off his ass. and joseph smith got mormonism out of his ass via seer stones and a hat wow it's the second month Obviously it's a fraudulent religion made up on the planet right now that I'm aware of.
Well, I would just say that it's easier to tell a fraudulent religion. The newer it is, yes. That is part of the problem. the mormon church has succeeded in destroying and hiding the path of evidence, if they are able to do it then mormonism could be as popular or more popular than mainstream christianity because now they won't have as much access to the evidence that shows which is not very good as i said the fool has given me about 100lbs of information for not being information but i guess doubt is the word for think thats a good thing and heres the thing if mormonism is true yes Mormonism turns out to be true then the doubt that leads you to discover the facts to prove why it is true not only means that you now have a more rational position but that it is a position that you could share you could call here you could convince anyone that the mormonism is true no logical fallacies no appeals to reformed egyptian with yes i am yes i really went into some of those and i didn't mean to be circular but those are the mormonism mones. such good people and i'm fine with the idea that they're good people except for one except for one thing i know a lot of ex mormons ex mormons we call them foremen um yeah or well apostates yeah ok you can call them apostates i like to call them human beings sorry i sounded off hard they are children of our heavenly father you are right no they are not in the worst shape because they were Mormon and now they are not they are far away According to Mormon doctrine, I am in worse shape than I am because I was never a Mormon, right?
Yes, from the dark, yes, so they are the worst of the worst. They have the worst course. Here's the thing. It's one thing that the church encourages and requires them to present that front to the world because the church's reputation suffers from their actions, so there are many miserable Mormons living in the worst mental condition. because they are involved in something that is not true that is overwhelming and yet they have to pretend that everything is fine because that is what the church demands and that for me is disgusting well I put it this I am I'm sorry you feel that way and you're right I shouldn't refer to my partner my brothers and sisters as an apostate I said apostate that's not right it might be accurate based on your doctrine but here's the thing if you were going to find out there were a bunch of wretches unhappy mormons who pretended to be happy eh forthe sake of promoting the church would you have a problem with that well yes you know happiness is a thing but to me is it true?
That's more important, yeah, so I'd start talking, I'd reach out to ex-Mormons, and then I'd start talking to other Mormons because the things they'll talk about in private are so different from what they'll talk about in public. I haven't been to the Mormon temple yet so I don't know what goes on there but I'm a new convert I'm pretty sure bloodletting doesn't happen there anymore but you should look into the history of that too yeah well. I've been a little concerned I'll be honest but I want to applaud you jeff for thinking about these things because a lot of people won't examine their beliefs, they won't examine what they think and why I think the fact that you're willing to show me that you're more rational that a lot of people in your church or another church i have a college education i have a degree in english education and american government education i teach 7th grade i'm no dummy um so maybe i need to rethink some and critical thinking is good you know it's because what we have here i'm on my cell phone we have cell phones because people you know think you know it would be nice to call my friend in in in in in texas or I would like to call my mother you know and I have I can't throw a stone here with a rock with a string or a can you know a can it won't quite work anyway jeff appreciate the call do some critical thinking re-examine uh no don't be afraid of doubts because the truth has nothing to fear from investigation that's true that's true okay thank you gentlemen have a great sunday thank you thank you as a reminder it's sunday which means the
experienceis in march, which is what you're watching now, unless you're watching the recording in the future, in which case it could be anytime, but if I'm watching it live when the show ends we meet for dinner at the star of restaurant india i think it's like twenty t and nine hundred and lane they'll put it at the bottom of the page boom i got it right 2900 west anderson lane i still don't see how you point because it's upside down but i can see you too so i know it starts in front of you and He goes on, he's taking the whole picture, no, that's 12 years of doing the show and doing it wrong over and over again, look here, it says after the show, yeah, but yeah, come have dinner with us after the show.
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