Coronavirus-Update #13: "Natürlich kann man noch einkaufen gehen" | NDR Podcast

ndr info that the corona virus is

update

d little by little, more and more federal states decide to close their schools, large events are canceled, concerts are held before empty spectators and more and more companies are thinking about the home office. These are the advances since yesterday, topics that we want to address talking about today and about Responsibility Responsibility of politicians, of scientists and of each and every one of us My name is Anja Martini I am a scientific editor at NDR Info and every day we speak with Professor Christian Drosten He is the head of virology of the Charité Berlin Good morning Mr.

Drosten Good morning Mr. Drosten We are now around 2,400 confirmed corona cases in Germany and politicians are reacting by closing schools and canceling events and how serious the topic of the corona virus is now It seems to have reached people. As a virologist, you are now calmer than at the beginning of the week, that is, I cannot say that I am worried, it is rather a sequence of events that I can see in other countries, some of which are already somewhat advanced, and I think that The direction that Germany is taking now is good, for example in terms of canceling events.

It is also true that now, and this is a particular challenge in Germany, that the periphery, where decisions really have to be made, More and more decisions are now being made and, of course, there are other things that cannot yet be decided, and this applies both to me and to the politicians of the majority of the federal states, this is the issue of the closure of schools and kindergartens. How to treat these areas with children. Of course, there are uncertainties, both from a scientific point of view. I already communicated to you yesterday that it is not that easy and that as a scientist you cannot simply say: "I recommend the following", even if that is the expectation.

I think it is very important to understand that politicians and they are actually partly individuals , so they can really be health ministers in countries with small, close work teams. Their heads are now spinning and they just say what do we do now. "We have a big problem here. On the one hand, we know with some certainty that closing schools and daycares would do something. On the other hand, we know it, but we are causing damage to the working population and essential structures. like hospitals, but also, of course, for industrial companies and I think that now a little more reflection is needed and a few days of rest and a few days of opportunity to make decisions without pressure and we also have this time, so it would be.

It would be better if politicians made an informed decision, say by mid-late next week, that is tailored to local circumstances and perhaps consult again not just one or two people working on a virus but also people who are involved in school knowledge of social structures, etc. Other experts are also needed, not that those things are part of the topic of virology, that's the fact that I certainly deal with it here and there more than other virologists because I'm "I'm just interested in these viruses, but there are scientists and professionals who know much more than me, for example, about the effects of school closures, and politicians now simply need a few days to get advice, because politicians have to make the decisions and I have to make them." I'm trying to do that too.

To always be clear, even between the president of the Robert Koch Institute and me, there is a clear difference. Actually, I am only here as a scientist and I can also say and I want to say that Science is not a black and white picture, there is different information and you should not ignore it. As a scientist, I can filter it and discuss things, for example in a

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, that I think are really important, but I can't condense that into a single-issue recommendation and I don't want that either because it's not my job. As a scientist you said that the virus is new to all of us and by that you mean of course the possibilities of infection, but the virus is also new to science, which means that there are many scientists who are currently working on this virus and they are discovering several things.

There are studies that have come to light in the last few days where something new has happened, so Of course, there are always new things in science, but I must say that I have not been able to keep up with the reading pace in the last few days, of I actually thought about it now, for the weekend and at the beginning of next week. I've decided to read a whole series of new posts, which also takes me a while. I have to deal with it and then sort it out over and over again here on the

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To speak more scientifically and provide background in this area. For me, the past week has been a rush back and forth between ministries and Senate authorities who want advice on the same issue, and of course I do that too, but for now it's practical. My entire day has been every day for the past week and I have barely been able to read. Yesterday there were reports from the Robert Koch Institute about the cases in Italy and there was also a report from a doctor and there were reports of more and now there are more young patients suffering from really serious illnesses.

Do you know what the figures are at the moment? I can't understand it, but it's true. It has been noted that there are more young patients in intensive care units than one would have expected given the figures from China that focus mainly on the older population, but I have not seen a real survey in Italy that can say that here in Italy the age spectrum looks different. You have to wait and see because there is a big danger here. Misperception While There is a lot of communication through the public, it is natural that these are the particularly egregious cases that are mentioned, whereas someone who is older and in the intensive care unit can die relatively quickly.

It corresponds to the expectations of the profile of your case and then there is no separate report that reaches the media. Until now, we have mainly had two attitudes among friends and acquaintances. I think I can determine that one was always a little worried and the other was not at all worried about the corona issue, I wanted to let it affect me. My observation now is that that's no longer the case, which means a lot more people are thinking about it right now and they're really letting it affect them. We have already talked about this several times and now you are thinking about it as a Sagittarius I, as a virologist, what do you think about this?

How can these people? Now they take care of themselves, who have put things aside a little and haven't really realized what they can do now? Well, first of all it has to be said that they haven't lost much because not much has changed. In recent weeks, many people have thought a lot about their private lives and behavioral changes, even though there was actually no virus in the environment and I had said time and again that we now have to put this individual consideration aside. and don't always think about how it affects me privately and how I protect myself from infections because there is no virus but we have to think about what will happen in the coming weeks we also have to stop looking abroad but more at Germany as they can, which is commercialized in Germany and now, of course, we are slowly finding ourselves in a situation where the virus is in the environment and so it doesn't matter whether you are just starting to think about it or whether you have been racking your brain.

We'll talk about it for a few weeks. Behavioral changes are starting to bear fruit, so let's start with very simple things: you have to think about whether you definitely want to meet friends at the pub this weekend or if you prefer to do so. at home. I wouldn't say they get together. You're not with friends, the likelihood of someone in your circle of friends being infected is of course still very, very low at the moment, but if you go to the pub with your friends. so you're in close contact not only with these friends, but maybe 50 people at the moment or 100 who are in the pub, but several hundred spread throughout the night and the glasses of beer will be.

We all know that we all crawl. water in these pubs, but the amount of dishwashing liquid left there is something you don't want to question in detail. This virus will certainly be transmitted in this way, so it is a very practical consideration that I make to myself as a virologist and I have never heard of it in public, so when I go to a bar and I like to do that, I drink . But I always put beer in the bottle. In fact, I have always done it for a long time, for many years. It has nothing to do with corona.

We are dragging a glass through the water where there are still some spent bubbles of detergent. Also, that is worrying in my opinion and that is why there is no beer on tap, something very practical for everyday life. weekend life and then of course other things, so tomorrow afternoon you have to go to big cultural events, if they still exist. In many places, many cultural businesses have already closed. In other places it is not like that, but as a private individual, of course, you can pay attention to it and simply question it, and I do not want to say that there has to be absolute panic here and that if you have theater tickets for 50 euros, then you should not use them.

Of course it's nonsense, but In principle, maybe we should start thinking about this: We currently do not have such an infection density in Germany that we would suspect the next infected person behind every corner, who actually already has a fever but still He drags her to the hospital. public, it's not like that, but you should think about things like that. Of course, this also continues at children's events on the weekends. We know that children already have this virus. We don't think they have it more often. than adults and neither. They emit a lot more viruses than adults, but as a parent you still end up at children's events, children's sporting events, where suddenly there are 100 or 200 children in a place and the adults are there too.

Maybe discuss with the club how to deal with this, so you can't always expect politicians or authorities to say we won't hold this event from time to time everyone says, what a shame, otherwise we would all have come. It's a two-sided thing, and you as a participant have to say to yourself at some point, well, I'd rather not do that and that's how it happens in all these everyday considerations and then it would also be important that everyone has to go shopping on weekend or almost everyone has to go shopping to say no, I'm not going to order groceries now and clog the streets with these trucks, it's all a total overload, of course, you can still go shopping at the supermarket.

And of course, it's complete nonsense to stock up on anything now. It's as non-perishable as possible, warehouses are full, and there are no lines for food deliveries at grocery stores. There is no reason to think about doing this. shopping, that's complete nonsense, you can do everything like you did before, but of course it's on a smaller scale. If someone has symptoms and right now they are more likely to be flu symptoms or a normal cold than this virus, but still if you have symptoms you probably shouldn't visit grandma and grandpa on the weekend, but if you don't have symptoms you can do it.

For the moment, of course, we also have to imagine these standards of behavior that we are communicating right now, that we politicians are also communicating, now they will all be very important, but we don't have to lock ourselves at home from one day to the next. I think we all will be in the coming weeks and maybe even months. "We have to try this for ourselves, where we can change our own behavior and where we don't want to and it won't be the case that everyone can change everything and everyone locks themselves at home. Of course, there has to be a certain Normal life takes place out and we should just go about our daily lives with the idea of ​​how this virus is actually transmitted so don't say it without thinking.

From now on I will wash my hands once every hour because I heard that on the radio somewhere It is true, of course it is important to wash your hands because it is true that this virus can stick to your hands, but this virus is not a virus associated with a cold and cold illnesses because the virus sticks to your hands a lot and It is already there as long as they do not have a physically very stable cover and perhaps they are transmitted more in this way, this virus, this corona virus, lodges in the throat and that will also be equipped in the later phase and we must behave accordingly, against cough against the viruses that have been equipped. and they are in the air The best thing you can do is stay outdoors, so if you have the option of doing leisure activities with friends or family then it is a very good idea to get outdoors now.

I heard the weather is nice at the weekend so this is a weekend to go out and he for example doesn't sit in the pub or maybe the restaurant and you have to think about how far away they sit from each other, do you want to be in crowded situations all night long or even then maybe you prefer to be at home. Going out with some friends, activities like this, that's just the distance of consideration because the virus is in the air for a short time, it gets expelled. and it is in the air like aEurosol thick to medium size and falls to the ground relatively quickly.

So it's not like a virus stays like a cloud in the air and stays there for hours and then spreads to the neighboring area. So there is while there is like this with this one, that is not the case of these

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es that are whole for a short time in the air for a few minutes and then fall to the ground, that's how you have to imagine it. , so it's not that you get infected when you go out for a walk when you meet, it's not that there is a virus somewhere The decisive concentration in the air is the hypothesis that should work.

I think that helps a lot in such cases. step-by-step decision-making processes in everyday life. The so-called risk groups, that is, people with an immunodeficiency for whom their own applies, now also think a lot about the same rules, or we don't know exactly that. if certain types of immunodeficiencies pose a risk against this virus, then of course there are severe immunodeficiencies, you can say with certainty, other things I'm not quite sure if that's really the case. We have to imagine prior damage relevant to this virus. Anyway, we get this infection in large numbers and in most of the patients it turns into a viral infection of the lungs and this viral infection of the lungs only triggers a dry cough which in many patients remains persistent for a few days and in others it becomes difficulty breathing and in others this difficulty breathing leads to the point where you have to go to the intensive care unit because the gas exchange in the lungs no longer works and it is this virus.

This causes a strong circulatory stress to the point at which at the latest difficulty breathing occurs and this is then a critical phase and this is where the risk group is often separated from the normal population and simply if the circulatory system can withstand this tension for a few days, that is, someone who If our heart trains in sports, will easily face this, which for a few days has to beat faster and pump more blood, even at rest, while someone who gets out of breath even with the slightest load when climbing stairs or something. Of course, it is particularly difficult for the circulatory system and what you read a lot in the literature in the reports of many, many patients is that the circulatory system is also a very important component of that previous process. damage, so you don't always have to focus so much on the immune system.

I don't want to think about it, but about circulation, that is, patients with angina symptoms, for example, but also patients who simply know about themselves or people. I don't even want to say and tell people who know, so if I go down a flight of stairs during a piece, I'm already out of breath and that can happen. This also applies to people in their 40s. "They have to live under the idea that they are at increased risk and not at increased risk of contracting this infection. We all have a basic risk of contracting the infection. The risk comes at the end of the first week, when the course of the disease is determined and where the people in whom the virus actually reaches the lungs have a problem, for example with circulation and then we have other diseases that in a way are accompanied by immunosuppression, but in reality this immunosuppression is also partly the cause of a treatment that is asthma.

We have asthma patients who know exacerbation, which means that a cold occurs and then the asthma gets worse for a full period of time four weeks later, and asthma if treated, for example, by asthma therapy inhalation, i.e. with such small inhalers. Then you may even have to change your therapy to another asthma medication for a few weeks afterwards and you could talk to your doctor at that time about whether, for example, you should replace an asthma medication. asthma with cortisone for an asthma medication that has less impact on the immune system. Then this cortisone intervenes.

First of all, medications have an effect, but there is no real scientific basis for this, so I can't say that it needs to be changed now. Nobody can say. that and then it really depends on the GP, who knows his patient and knows how he reacts to different medications and, as an asthmatic who often has a long experience with the disease, also wonders if he is satisfied with his current attitude. Due to the disease, many asthmatics do not realize it in everyday life. If the disease is well controlled, you may have said at the beginning of the podcast that this week was more of a difficult political week for you and less of a scientific one. and that was also reflected in our podcast and you said: You traveled a lot in ministries and did advisory work, but you are a virologist and a scientist.

What was your feeling this week? Did you feel a little uncomfortable? You said now science. comes first again or what was your impression of this week, yes, I have to say, first of all, of course, I like to do it to a certain extent because, of course, it's good when politicians, at all levels, like that I'm not just talking about federal politicians, for example, when they get information, when they actively seek information, and even if they don't always use the same information channels, and that can be seen very clearly here right now, so it's a Really a good development and that is of course due to this general bewilderment and this little experience that many places have with this particular virus, which I appreciate and support, but at the moment it is actually pushing me to the limit of my capabilities .

I really could have done it and I'm here in Berlin. He could have gone back and forth from the ministry to the Senate office and also to the Charité. By the way, at the Charité we need a lot of advice. We are a very active community. clinic here that is dealing with this situation very, very proactively and of course we always have to coordinate internally here and we've really now gotten to the point where I had that before. I already said that I haven't been able to read the latest scientific publications this week, or almost any, and I usually do that all the time and I want to try to catch up on that a little bit over the weekend and I really hope I can do it again next week may make you stronger and so that we can talk about science much more strongly here on this podcast and I have to tell you that, since you asked if I feel comfortable in this role, that is a little doubtful for me, so I always have situations where Ya I don't feel well.

This happens, for example, when I see something from this podcast that is quoted in the newspaper, for example, that is not complete and the reason I am doing this podcast is because you have a long wait. speaking time and because there are many people. Interested citizens also have the feeling that they really want to dedicate this half hour of attention to this situation and that they really want to hear it in its entirety and it is not in vain that it is now even transcribed in writing so you can read it again in detail and if so But then abbreviated information is cited, for example this morning I was very scared, I heard it on the radio and read it in the newspaper at the same time.

Drosten says school closures should be based on the latest scientific discoveries and as quickly as possible and at least four weeks. It's true that I said that yesterday on the podcast, but I said it about the Spanish flu in 1918 and about a study that I cited that So a fellow scientist sent us a study that I read, at least did it again and then explained it in the podcast and then this statement is quoted as incompletely as if he had said it explicitly and also as advice for politicians on Co Witt 19 about this current illness and what is left out is that I said it was different then.

Situation, a different society, a different time, that is, in the days of the Spanish flu, when a school was closed there was no care dilemma for families because it was a time in which the mother was almost always at home as housewife, it was also a time when there were not many nurses in the hospitals because children now have to be cared for at home, but back then the nurses were often religious sisters, almost always religious sisters who did not have children and so we can continue like this, so the idea of ​​a daycare was not even conceived at that time.

Basically there were young children in the home so the collateral damage is completely different but the virus is also completely different, back then it was an influenza virus, here we have the corona virus so we don't know if that's the case and that's exactly how we discussed it yesterday. School Closings It really helps here, but now it's hitting the mainstream media and politicians are afraid to make decisions like that, and we said at the beginning of this half hour that now is the time when politicians definitely need a few days of break to deliberate. not only always from the same people but also from other specialized disciplines and now we absolutely must give politicians this peace of mind for important decisions such as the closure of schools and it is damaging if political journalists now say that we are doing what we always do, treating politicians with an attitude of urgency, that is why we tell this expert, let's take a quote from him and transmit it to the public and thus create an urgency so that politics captures this state of mind that is created in the public through decisions, I think now. "It's bad when politicians just decide something quickly and then have to make corrections because the decisions were too serious.

We don't have to explain again the issue of school closures, that this has serious consequences and that's why it's good if we don't try to do that will act in this normal reporting mode of political journalism, but if political journalists also try to work more like scientific journalists, with more experience and with a little more calm, Mr. Drosten, I would like to thank you very much for this conversation and for the podcast today and we say I hope you also have a lot of time to read at the weekend and I am looking forward to listening again next week with many scientific topics.

Thank you very much until then and until then we will be happy to answer your questions in my question ed. from my question together we wrote this podcast You can find them again at lunchtime on ard audi or thek and on ndr.de Corona

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and because many of our listeners have asked, we have now also made available the interview scripts with Christian Drsten on our website. My name is Anja Martini. I would like to thank you for that. Listen and see you soon. Corona virus update. An ndr info podcast.