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Charlie Rose - Johnnie L. Cochran Jr. ( O.J. Simpson Trial )

May 30, 2021
to obtain a conviction? Oh, I think so, I think that's one of the things. And look, that didn't bother you, I mean, there's a defendant there that you're sentencing, maybe it bothered me to no end, in fact, the reports are so well written that they always said the same thing, you know, when there's a driving arrest there you were part of. the same system and you're putting the guys, you know it's close to perjury exactly, so exactly, so what I did, what I went to my superiors and said, we talked about this in the book in a chapter called a soul divided, said.
charlie rose   johnnie l cochran jr o j simpson trial
I'm not going to p

rose

cute these cases anymore, especially the 148 where I believe the police officers are fabricating these stories, so I become part of the conspiracy to stop these people from sealing off the city of Los Angeles and that's what I give them. I mean.p

rose

cutors, I mean, the job means nothing if you don't try to defend something, so I stopped doing that and they respected, what do you think will change it? It's been a real battle my whole life because you know why charene. I realized early on that the first traffic ticket I gave to the police officer on the street is the most powerful figure in the criminal justice system.
charlie rose   johnnie l cochran jr o j simpson trial

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charlie rose johnnie l cochran jr o j simpson trial...

It could take your life. He can abuse you. Can. He can name you. And they always are. I'm going to take him at his word, but there's a problem with this because when you say it, not you, but when anyone says it, and it's so central to the fact that so many good, hard-working police officers get up every morning with a job that doesn't make that much money. and risk their lives for our safety, you know, and you're tired, is it really with this feeling that you are taking, you are corrupt, you are hitting minorities? It's a real problem, one thing we LAPD don't do with them, it's unfair to good officers and most of them are good officers, here's the problem.
charlie rose   johnnie l cochran jr o j simpson trial
First of all, in Los Angeles we don't have many officers stealing, we don't have much. However, what we do have is more brutality than we should. There is a hardcore group of officers and they now know that they were identified in the Christopher commission report and in the Webster report. These hardcore officers who keep having complaints that they keep hitting people all the time. The problem with good officers, and there are certainly many more, is that they should not sit idly by these paramilitary organizations, if the head of the department is a paramilitary organization, they follow orders, I mean what you mean in terms of the whole the structure of the Police Department, right? police officers follow orders, if you, if the chief says we are not going to tolerate an officer abusing someone, and if you are there and you see this, you tolerate it, you will also get in trouble and internal affairs really meant what which is supposed to be Internal Affairs, where they had some teeth where they weren't worried about things like conduct upon becoming an officer, where you go out and accidentally pick up someone who's a drag queen or something you get fired for. that, but going out and punching someone or shooting someone, whatever is real, is a different story, so we need the good officers to stand up and speak, that's what clearly clears the house and you can't, so they shouldn't be harassed by everyone from Serpico to this lady here in New York who ratted out this particular officer, you have to have officers that stand up when you got the call when you heard that OJ Simpson was a murder and OJ Simpson was being questioned, did you think first what did you think?
charlie rose   johnnie l cochran jr o j simpson trial
My heart just skipped out. I met OJ Simpson, man, Nott, quaintance, man, someone who I didn't see very often, but who I had seen before, two years before I saw him in a um uh. his daughter had graduated and I was back at graduation I went to a party I had a party with him I talk about this in the book someone I respected from growing up around Los Angeles I felt like my heart broke like an ex -The wife thought about those children, but I didn't think much more about it, except that it was your first instinct.
OJ Simpson couldn't kill someone, oh that was my feeling, that was always my feeling. I didn't think of him as a suspect in All my time I felt so terrible for the kids and you know for him when the loss that were my initial thoughts right, did I know anything about all these other incidents involving him that had come to light? light and during the

trial

and before the

trial

and during the trial no, I did not do it it was not part of your knowledge it was not part of my knowledge no no it was not common knowledge there may have been an article about the incident of January 1, 1989, but I don't remember at that time no Jeffrey tubin like you no in his book have you read these books these other books?
I was busy writing my own no I didn't but I know a lot of what I said because I asked everyone questions and the question everyone asked out of YOUR book is one. Each of these books has a kind of flash point where the question one, the question about you is: did you tell anyone at any point before you took the case? He is absolutely guilty, not ABS, not once, nor anyone, anyone, anyone, who. He came forward to say that Cochran said that he is a liar, that is exactly right and you won't find anyone to step forward, why would he?
You know, it's surprising why Jeffrey does things like this. I know Jeffrey Tuban from the court, let me respond to this distinguished reporter he is a distinguished reporter but he never listened to me he said I spoke to him many times he says he has a source to whom someone said let me tell you why he is alive Jeffrey tubin says that the June 17th I told someone that Gio J Simpson being in denial should be accepted and then maybe he should plead to a lesser charge or diminished capacity on June 17th. He was working as a commentator, huh, and he was hanging around.
He was speaking that night. He was committed to go to the night line. He really didn't know anything about the case. He didn't have any reports. OJ Subs hadn't even called me. He also says in the book that he had inside information. He didn't know anything. I first saw the police reports in this case later. I went in on July 22, 1994 I saw nothing seen I didn't know anything oh they called me from jail and to prevent the press from making a big um Hub up I never went down to jail we talked on the phone you and Simpson, Simpson and I, and then I spoke also with Shapiro, we never went to jail because I knew if I went down there because of all these rumors I never saw any reports until I appeared in court on Friday, July 22, absolutely while you were sitting all night. line Studio waiting to go to Nightline you didn't tell anyone anything that could have been misinterpreted as him being guilty and that he should do this or that at all.
I don't have any advice for whoever the lawyer is. I did not do it. I knew what the facts were I didn't know no and I didn't do that I was there just to answer questions and to respond to the fact in fact that night I was worried because I thought he was going to commit suicide that night until it was resolved because that suicide note was a suicide note that they read earlier in the day Kardashian and I think in Shapiro indicating that he said he was innocent but he just couldn't understand while this was happening to him it seemed like This, this supposed low speed chase seemed like something horrible, so again I was thinking that something bad might happen to this, but this is some kind of incredible strength.
I mean, do what he did with his life, oh yeah, uh. to become the football star, he did, to succumb to suicide, it would be hard to understand, but he had never been through this before, he was a man whose life had really been Charmed and he had a lot to lose and it seemed like he was. . I had a bad time. That note was simply based on the note. I had no additional information. How do you explain Kadashian? Well, you know, I haven't seen the book yet. I only saw a preview of a show that will be released later.
You know what he I'm sorry, something about having doubts or whatever, it surprises me. We always thought of him as a very, very, very strong friend to OJ Simpson. He was always there every day and he never said that he renewed his law license and converted. a lawyer renewed his license. I'm really surprised that he's never talked about having doubts before this and what really surprises me because he's a guy in general that I have a lot of respect for is the ethical violation. he is a lawyer, he can, he is violating the confidentiality of the relationship with a client, even now after violating I have doubts about that, oh, absolutely, because the client did not release him from doing this and now he puts himself in a position where that the client is about to begin having a civil lawsuit.
Now they're going to call Kardashian as a witness or whatever? M. I had doubts, I mean, he can even say more than that. I don't know, yeah, we haven't seen the book. but that thing is so hard to understand so so so if he is saying that he could be held in contempt he could say that the State Bar could do more than that if he violates attorney privilege, yes, attorney privilege and client, that's how serious it is for a lawyer to do that, and I'm not as familiar with this case as most of the reporters recovered it because it wasn't my turn, it's not what I do, as you well know, you understand what was in that bag.
B and what happened with that bag what bag are you talking about one that Kardashian supposedly had well, the bag that Kardashian had, it would be interesting to talk for him to talk about this in the book The Bag, the last thing we brought that bag to court , the bag, I think they are talking. They stayed in Kardashian's garage, they never, the police never came back, then we arranged for them to pick up that bag and take it to court, they inspected it and they went to every lab possible. I'm sure there's nothing in that bag, that's the bag he had.
So he, he, had a lot of speculation about him based on the bag, but the bag had nothing but clothes. Talk about some of the personalities. In this case, you have also been through this routine before. Shapiro Bob Shapiro did a good job building the team. Something happened to him on the way. He passed the baton to him. He bothers her. Yes, that was the triggering mechanism because it was not a voluntary step. It was January 2, 1995. OJ Simpson said: I'm making a change. Uh, I want someone else to lead this team. I need a trial lawyer at that time.
I didn't know that was difficult for Bob. um, he offered to leave the team. Simpson was smart. Simpson said, look, I don't want it. outside this team he will cause more problems outside, so he stayed and was a team player. At that point he stood there, we didn't know how deep the feelings were and you know from the beginning that the feelings were that Simpson was guilty, no. For me, the feelings did not run deep into this change, I mean to that point. I see there was a lot more resentment than I realized at the time.
You think he believed Simpson. You suggest that he believed Simpson was guilty. You know from the beginning. He never talked about it. Later we would have these theories. They came up with this theory about that. Well, I already have it. He went over there to put the key in her car and I said, "Wait a minute. She didn't kill her with the key. What are you talking about?" SEC, your car cuts your tires and then we were hearing these things and I was like look, that's nonsense, the clan has always maintained their innocence, so we have that kind of thing that started in a meeting once when I was still in charge, but how many here?
I feel like OJ Simpson is guilty, that's right, all of you sitting around a table, the Dream Team, yes, supposedly, yes, someone, someone, says that or you say that, he says that, for starters, we're guests, already you know, and all of us. I feel very strongly that the clan is innocent, I mean you see Barry, she Peter Newfell sitting around the table, but we couldn't believe it, so that kind of thing happens and then there were other things that you talk about about him, him It's like I said. I gathered some great Witnesses and then Henry Lee Michael beat people like that, the fact that Barry she fell back on the team, we owe it to him, but the day he interrogated Van Adder, he came to court wearing one of these LAPD types. of blue ribbons Bader is angry with him Simpson is angry and we don't understand what he's doing he makes friends he does everything possible to be friends with turo who was then Ferman's lawyer and I told him I said Bob when this is over, you will be the sued and sure enough he was sued for 50 million dollars none of us were because we never told Jeffrey Tubin in the New Yorker magazine about a man's racial planning yeah so he goes on talking about I'm planning about fman right and some of the many other things, but probably the worst thing is that Ferman said that it was Shapiro who gave Tubin the first idea to go look absolutely and before I got into the case, Shapiro had this interview with tubit and gave him the idea and he was very proud of that, of that theory, that this RAC thought he was weaving the story, yes, he thought he was weaving the story, he was very proud of his ability to weave stories and maybe of What I found most offensive was the fact that one day in jail he was surreptitiously recordingour conversations and I understand that others may have done that.
Can you imagine that to write a book, they try to represent the client? people are working on their book recording a conversation during that, it's pretty scary, you know, I don't know where the idea of ​​defense comes from and where these lawyers got so lost along the way and I really found that Chris Darden comeback offensive. to SP in a minute Chris Darden was here talked about what happened to the relationship between the two of you said, among other things, that he ran that courtroom that Cochran had everyone under his spell that you were you, including the judge, that It's absurd, we, you know.
We heard some of those comments and went back and looked at the rulings that Judge Ido made for the prosecution. More than 70% of the time I have a lot of respect for Judge Ido, but keep in mind that this is the judge who allowed a dream in What Kind of Dream Was He? Even he admitted it was wrong. He took over 60 Firment-related incidents and gave us two. One of you couldn't hear, but what about the civil judge? I think, and again, I beg you not to follow this. so closely because I do other things besides covering this trial, I mean, besides paying attention to this trial, does the civil judge allow it?
He told the lawyers that we will not allow police evidence. Misconduct unless you have evidence to support it, you can't, yes, there are indications that there is a very dramatic difference, so the central point on which you raised your defense in this civil suit won't hear that kind of testimony, not exactly, first of all, Attorney Bob. Baker is a great lawyer, what he said is you have to have some lawyer, yes Bob Baker, he is a great civil lawyer, look at him, remember that name, he was the best lawyer in that courtroom, now him and Bob Blazer and you will see it and hear it. more about him, um, what he said is essentially that you have to present some hard evidence of a police conspiracy or whatever, now that you know, I've already been talking, uh, it's very difficult for other AR police officers to come forward, police officers do not It is not presented about Ferman, we discover that the tape through the screenwriter is very difficult, so the judge cannot stop.
However, I think the fact that you present circumstantial evidence of certain things happening, so this judge has taken a harsher view on reality. problems, it would have made your case much more difficult if you had this kind of ruling in your criminal case, well, maybe that's the case, but look, we wanted to get into no, let me tell you which judge you know stopped us from talking about it being impossible to kill with drugs. They said you can't bring that up, I mean we were C the right ruling in one case I think, but can a criminal defense attorney come up with any possible scenario unless he has direct evidence that he needs Witnesses, he needs Witnesses and we?
I thought we had Witnesses and they didn't allow us to call them and I think they will find the final result by the time this case goes to trial in the civil case. I think you will find that the defense having it can produce enough witnesses to indicate and be able to argue that this evidence was tampered with, there are certain elements that cannot be explained any other way, there will be no matter what this judge rules, mainly the blood evidence, you makes Cas right in the ccs. of missing blood, explain, but this is what a lot of people ask and again, I don't want to sound like I'm being harsh with this saying because I don't really know much about it, a lot of people say missing blood is one thing, another thing is to show what happened to him and he was manipulated, oh absolutely, but they are two very different propositions, that's true, but look Charlie, if you have it, if you find Eda, this substance, this preservative substance in the back door or in the sock. supposedly in the bedroom, how did that get there?
I mean, you have to have an explanation for why there is blood on the socks in the bedroom, first of all, the socks aren't there in 43 per Willie Fory video, but they are there 20 minutes later, huh, how does the EDT to those suckers? Why is there blood? They are put there by compression. Why does blood go from side one to side two to side three? If there is a leg inside, there are things in this case. that any rational person, if they understand the facts, will never be able to explain them, but as a former prosecutor, there are not always things that cannot be explained in a criminal case because of what different people see and what happens with the evidence, not always so overwhelming.
If the socks are key and Martia Clark says they are key to showing the blood trail, why are the socks there? When there is a video at the foot of the bed, take it at 413 and they are there at 440. There are a few things you can do. I can't explain where this missing blood is, I can't explain why the photographs of The Back Fence taken around January, June, June 12 or 13, don't show any markings there, except for the fact that Vanetta kept that V of blood Yes, and he also took two others, but it doesn't prove that he manipulated her.
The fact that he kept her and didn't immediately do something with her doesn't prove that he had criminal intent, but it gives him the opportunity. You start, all you have to do is show the opportunity to create doubt and then yes, exactly more than that, you create doubt and you are on the right track, but more than that, you have to first have the opportunity if you don't take it. the blood, then you might find it difficult to do it, but you have the blood that has EDTA in it and then of course now you find out that it's two things, okay, it's two, you have the blood that has EDTA in that blood and now you find Eda on several of the elements, well you know, does it take a rocket scientist to realize that that's certainly a reasonable hypothesis of what happened and if you combine that with what it takes, it takes a jury, a jury, uh , which because of your life experience you might find reasonable, that's right, we're talking about what's reasonable and you get it right better than almost anyone.
It is about the history of this department. If you live in Los Angeles, understand that this may not be the case in De Mo Iowa. uh, maybe they didn't have Chief Parker, if you grew up in Los Angeles and there is an oral tradition that is passed down many times through women in the community, the prosecutors didn't understand this, you don't have to tell anyone about it. Any part of Johnny Cochran say that because of this whole story that I described in the first 15 minutes of this conversation say that I want to win this case because of OJ Simpson, I believe he is innocent, but I also want to present it to the Los Angeles Police Department in a case that they believe in and think they have their man and I want to put him to the test and the most publicized lawsuit in the history of the American jury Prudence, no, there's nothing to say.
I'm going to show you, get, try. to you that this will no longer happen in Los Angeles because I am going to show you what is not, I believed that I was innocent, the first part, I lied that I was innocent, I believed that, but let me tell you why that was not the case if it were that way . so yes because if you think about it logically I was the one who should have interrogated Ferman Bob Shapiro asked me to do it but you didn't want to I didn't want to do it because it intensified the racial tension and I opted and either that or you didn't have the stomach for it.
I've had a whole career, but me, but this guy, you, so what, no, I'm the one who went to North Carolina, I'm the one who got it. the tapes I have the stomach for it that's what I've done but you didn't do it why didn't I do it because I didn't want to escalate racial tensions I thought if you saw this black lawyer out there asking this white police officer these questions everyone expected that They would certainly play into racial fears and I live in Los Angeles twice in my career as I do. I've seen my city go up and smoke and I didn't want to do it and I didn't choose me, if I was Johnny Cochran, if I was that good, I would have had a hard time when I got to the part that was later used in a sense to accuse Johnny Cochran of compare LAPD and Hitler so you didn't know the question. of what was in your heart, but of the fact that, no matter how intelligent you are, the potential for the feelings that it would create because the Holocaust for the entire society and especially for the Jews in the world there has never been and never will be anything so evil , You know?
I'm not going to go into comparing tragedies. I am not going to talk about the slavery that proceeds. Understand me. Let me tell you all the things that happened during my final argument. I wouldn't use that phrase or that analogy, but let me tell you. a little bit about that you wouldn't use it secondly I wouldn't use it I wouldn't use it because I think it was misinterpreted that it came from a Jewish lawyer who came directly and who lost much of his family in aritz Charles Linder Chuck Linder the writings also for the LA Times, that was an analogy that he proposed, the reason was that we knew that Ferman was a person who collected Nazi memorabilia and quite possibly a person who had Nazi ties, that's what everyone who was in this room and knew said.
This the prosecutors also knew seemed an apt description of everything I was trying to say and I said that Ferman did not have the power of a Hitler who was a Scourge. I didn't downplay the Holocaust fish at all. What he was trying to do. My point is that Sir Edmund Burke said it best. All that is required for evil to triumph is for good men to remain silent. That's what I was trying to say. I could have said better and easier would have been a much better way to say it if I were people. I got so excited that I wouldn't do that again, but that's what I was trying to say.
I have been to Israel. I have been to yah bashim. I understand the Holocaust. I am African American. I know about the deaths of millions. They came here, black Americans didn't have better friends than Jewish Americans and I and I don't have better friends than Jewish Americans now, so I wouldn't have done that, but I think it was misunderstood. I really feel like anything else you wouldn't do. have done in that trial I think I regret it I think that's probably the biggest regret I think the other things you know um like I said, I don't think I thought it was an appropriate analogy coming from a Jewish lawyer, but because of misunderstanding it just wasn't that I wouldn't do that again the other things I was an advocate it wasn't about trying to take the popular course Charlie it was about trying to represent the client did it make any difference to you whether Simpson did it or not, yeah, He did and he would be because let me tell you why he would never bribe for perjury.
I would not do it. I understand that you can't make that bribe for perjury, but so far your temp could say well, I didn't do it and here you go. his word, yes I tried, you try to take your clients as they were, but you didn't put it in the trial, so you are not subor in perjury, but I mean you would, but if you tried to present evidence of the timeline If you if he said look I did this you wouldn't even call any witnesses to try to prove that they didn't do it you couldn't do that you know you wouldn't but in this case he didn't testify as you know but he always maintained that He didn't, he never, ever deviated from that with any of us.
I understand and everyone spoke to the bar. They were also on the show for an hour and he said the same thing. thing he said I believed in the boy and then they why do you believe in him and they said? I mean, the man said why do you believe in the boy said well, they just the way they suggested it to me right how can you know say wonder? These questions suggested that you think Simpson lied to you and that you think he did it and all that, but how can you tell someone didn't do it by the way he looks and talks?
No, you can't, you can't. I don't know, but what you do is try to accept because he takes his word, yes, you take his word, but also I would say that anyone would kill, lie well, that may be true, but you also look. Look at it from the point of view of what this person tells you and if you check if he tells you certain things and they check, you know, you had to know it for yourself, so you had to go check it out and know it for yourself before. You would say yes, no, from one point of view.
I knew OJ Simpson from the beginning. He said because he knew OJ Simpson. I said: I will do it. I'll take your word. I'm not going to go check it out, whereas with most people they would like to check it out, well no, not me, most people, you don't really have the luxury of going out, you're not like prosec, you don't go out and check everything now somewhere in the course of the case you can change your mind. I think this guy is not telling the truth. Did you ever have a moment like that where you said no, no, we didn't?
I don't remember falling for it in terms of what he said because it's not in the public record it's not for the jury where you say we have a contradiction here, how do we figure out how to do something about this contradiction? He would always be able to explain things and you know what the thing is. What really helped us a lot was the interview we had with the police, those 33 minutes recorded at the beginning and you know that said a lot because he had slept for an hour or two and he spoke again. these detectives his lawyers said you shouldn't do this he said look I want Howard Whitman yes Howard Whitesman and Skip tap left and left him alone with these officers he was in the car traveling with themin the middle why would they do that because according to Howard Whitesman and the others, Vanett and Lang said if you insist on being here we won't interview your client, someone said look, I don't have anything, I want to talk to him now, I mean, Promise me if they ever bring me back.
I hire you and they take me to the police you know and the police officer said I'll listen to you and I won't go talk to the police I mean that's stupid hey that's stupid that's not the wisest thing I mean I Whitman Point was stupid too allowing his client and his friend in this case. I guess you know, I always felt that if your client insists on doing it, or one of two things, you drag him out of there or you drag him out of there. Say you crawl off the case, that's it, I'm leaving the case, that's exactly why Whitesman left.
I dropped the case for some other reason, since you know the speculation in Los Angeles, no, that's what I mean. period, he's still on the case no, I mean, I mean leave him at that point, you do this, you have another lawyer, you know, because you're hurting yourself and I'm not going to be a part of your suicide here exactly right exactly right there are two Other books I want to talk to you about are Vincent Buosi, he says that it was a case that the prosecution could win and they ruined it. I haven't read his book.
I know Vincent Vincent hasn't tried a case in over 20 years, as far as I know. It sounds like a Vincent Buosi press release to me. I mean, what is he like? If he didn't even come to court, he says he didn't see some guy's case, but he says I did. I didn't know he says this and I have read this book. He hasn't read any of these books except this one. one says well you know this is your story and this is more than Tri's story and that's why I went over it the way I did to say who Johnny Cochin is before we find out where, where, as it comes. be here before we examine what he did once he was there, buosi seems to say APD only questioned him for 45 minutes, that was stupid, you know, I've talked to other people in law enforcement who say yes Had I had that opportunity I would have been there for much longer than 45 minutes and maybe 6 hours would have been better, you know what?
Charlie, all these things if you were a prosecutor and you had the opportunity to do it, you would have been excited at that opportunity, oh, absolutely sure, it would be to go with the guy, you can let him go for 45 minutes, if in fact there is any reason to believe that could have done it, it's there without EX, without a law, I even mean I understand how stupid it is that these two detectives have been there so maybe these guys aren't 27 each basically and if they did it, boosi, this is what he misses the sad part, he's just tooting his own horn, he's saying it's easy when you're on your feet. aside to say he could have done this, he could have done this, he should have known, that's just a fantasy in his own mind, Haden tried one case in 20 years, he's an author and he needs to stay there and stop speculating about real lawyers who we are actually dealing with cases, those of us here would have loved to have V biosi.
Time has passed, you could have had buosi in this Cas, it wouldn't have been a contest. Mara Clark is a tough lawyer, she's been trying cases, it's real, it's I would like you to think about what she did 20 years ago in the Manson case and I'm not going to take anything in that case, but I mean, most people I might have wanted you to have a defender with a sws on his forehead in the Manson case. he threatens to kill the jury, I mean, that wasn't exactly, it wasn't a hard case to win, so he knows he should stop riding that horse and stay out of this, he's not someone who should really comment, I I refer to the other participants. can you understand the writing, he wasn't, he didn't see the trial or whatever, he just comes to tell us that he could win, it was a scandal, otherwise you say that you would have loved it if we would have loved him to try this case. we would have loved it with a person we would have done it because emotionally we would have loved him.
I've seen Vincent. I've been on a show with him. I have seen his reaction to various things and we would have loved him. There is no doubt about that, so I don't give it much importance. I mean, that's just speculation. What he's talking about is speculation that he wasn't even there, but what he's trying to do is turn it around and criticize everyone. what he does in that process strengthens him, he says that if I had been there, unlike Darden, who says he was incompetent, and the secretary and the officers, I would have done everything right now, that is very easy to talk about .
Tubin says the prosecution was also incompetent. You were there and he was also a lawyer Tubin was there and he is a lawyer and I was going to say something about Jeffrey Tubin Jeffrey Tubin although you know he is an attractive young man and he and I talked during the trial. I'll tell you something interesting about him, everything he said was very biased and he will admit it. He made a decision early on and thought Simpson was guilty and that influenced everything he did. Quick example: one day he was on The Today Show in the morning and he went on the air and told the national television audience that today the prosecution is going to show that a photograph of Simpson's glove taken when he was an announcer has a defect and That flaw matched the glove in court and I saw it later that day.
I said Jeffrey, why do you do things like that? You just make it up while someone told me that's typical of the kind of thing he would do when I wouldn't. I know if anyone told him that or not, but there was absolutely no truth to it and he had an obligation to pay attention to these things. I mean, you should have called me and asked me if you ever told someone you thought something they never did. that and we know each other and he didn't do that, so if you're just looking for some Source or someone to tell you something, that's one thing and you know it, and he's a talented guy, but he was just completely wrong on a There are a lot of things that Simpson didn't know about the verdict the night before, that's the other point he makes that someone at the jail and the staff told him because they had a friend who had a friend and one of the alternate jurors, I guess, is that one. the story that one of the alternate jurors told someone who told someone yes and that wasn't true, that someone asked for Simpson's autograph, which is absurd, no, because we know you're leaving here tomorrow, like this We want to get the autograph now, no. no, Simpson didn't know no, he didn't know when, but you also say that Shapiro turned to Simpson and said, get ready for this, you're going to be absolutely convicted when Judge Ido looked down toward the center of the courtroom afterward.
When he saw the verdict he had this look on his face. Shapiro leaned over and said it's going to be bad news if they convict you. I told Bob, stop it, shut up. He called DTZ the night before and said to prepare the appeal. That was the same. However, the night before he had gone out and had this interview with Barbara Walters as well, so he had a different theory. His theory was that he would come and forget that amnesia blames us for the race car claim. If he had been in charge, it would have worked. well, we lost the case, none of that worked for him, the race card from the bottom of the deck and you can imagine he was the one who brought it up, but before that you were sitting watching ABC with Barbara Walters and Shapiro that night.
I don't see that I heard it either I didn't see that you heard it Would you say Do you think you would want to pick up the phone and call him and you did? No. I never did. You didn't call him. You didn't mention it to him, you never talked to him since because I haven't seen him since October 3rd, so what if he calls you and says Johnny, let's have lunch and find out what separates us? I would do that. I would do that because of the fact that you know we had a relationship in this case and he has done some things that I would love to hear the explanation from him.
I think he couldn't explain them like quicksand, the, the. You know, um giving this interview attacking his teammates, I mean, how could you do that? How could you be SP for the last three months working on his book? uh recording our conversation and seeing OJ Simpson when I told OJ Simpson about the recording he said I'm not surprised he said why did he come to see me in jail and he took out his tape recorder and said tell me your most intimate thoughts and you know, Simpson, it's not the way to get someone to tell your innermost thoughts anyway yeah It's um fle Bailey um good Lori and I have a lot of respect for her uh she did an excellent job on firman especially that was the highlight of her trial and she got um she never got the plots that deserved, but his The cross-examination was so excellent that when we found those tapes it fit perfectly with the 10 years that he used 10 years he didn't know about the tape no, he didn't know, we didn't know anything about those tapes.
It's a bad time for you. When two of your guys got into a fight in public, some people said that if you talked to Beek and Jerry, they would tell you that maybe the biggest accomplishment we had was keeping the team together, where two members don't even talk. He didn't want to travel together in the same car and they had been close where Lee Bailey was the godfather of Shapiro's son, well not only that Chapiro had defended Bile, he had made sure that he defended him and they were very close, they were on the letterhead from the other, so it was difficult.
We, we achieve it, also because it is about the client, not about our personal ego, our personal problems, this is when you interview a criminal defense lawyer and someone sees the interview, comes to you and says: I just want to know one thing very good: Tell me what you think it is. Would you defend someone if you thought that was exactly what they always said? Yes, I know, that's how I know and it depends if a client comes to me and tells me I'm guilty. Want? defend myself I said well, do you want me to come down and solve this case? enter into some kind of plea deal uh then okay, I can do it uh if the client says no, no, no, I want you to give me a Complete the entire defense and cross-examine all the witnesses.
I probably wouldn't accept it, but you'd certainly be ethically and morally fine if you did, as long as the guy says you did it and as long as you don't try. to bring in Witnesses where you knew they would be lying, you could cross-examine the witnesses clearly, but it would be a more difficult situation. The interesting thing about this is that almost no client tells a lawyer that unless he wants to plead guilty, it's like they say in prison, everyone here, man, they're innocent, they've been framed, every single one of them, yeah, nobody, there are not a few that say you know I belong to be here, you know, um, what happens now, first of all, if something happens and somehow it stops for some reason, some evidence shows up or OJ Simpson says I can't accept it.
You know, in fact, I have done it in spite of Johnny Cochran, in spite of Barry Shack and in spite of Peter Nille and in spite of all those people who fought bravely to save my life, yes, me. If we lied to him, we would be in terrible shape. I can talk myself and I know Barry would too. We would be terribly disappointed. We did our job based on everything we knew at the time, all the evidence and everything that depended on our client. I don't think this will ever happen, but we are sure it did and you have no reason in your mind.
Nothing has made you say you never know at all. Laen Schiller you know him. Uh, yeah, I know he has a book too. Yes, apparently. that's the Kardashian, yeah, that's right, that's the Kardashian, I mean, there's some other stuff in there. He seems to believe how all these guys come to these conclusions. Tubin seems to believe. Nick, uh, Dunn seems to believe how all these people sat down to watch this trial. in the courtroom is because his experience was different than the jurors is that the reason so many journalists seem to cover this trial and believe this guy believes he was guilty, okay, Tubin believes it Nick Dunn believes it, Let's take the first Chiller meets Simpson.
I don't know why I haven't read his book either, but let me take the first two. Larry Scher. I haven't read much of his book, but the first two. Dominic Dun said from the beginning, look, I have respect, more respect. for domic dun than others because he said he lost a son, he said I can't, I can't be fair and I think this guy is guilty and from the beginning he said that so everything he did was colored by that but at least he had enough integrity to say that Tubin is a lawyer and should have known better.
So no, I don't forgive him so easily for doing that. Mary Scheller. Don't know. Larry Schiller wrote the first book. that bestseller I want to tell you about with OJ and he had his conference and made money with OJ Simpson now I don't know until someone tells me the opposite of what OJ Simpson says I don't know what he says either, but I certainly would I would be really surprised if that happened, yeah , but he has Kardian and you know, yeah, well, this, this, this, okay, let me ask you how this has changed your life. Oh, it's because I have a lot less privacy when you enter a building. so write a book for four 4 and a half million for this well, I can't talk about the amounts but it's but Charlie, very good, Charlie was waiting a minute, but you have more than anyone else, you take pride in that.
It is not like this? You have more than Martin, you have more than Chris Dar. I am proud of that book and reallyI am now, and it's not just a Simpsons book, so unfortunately, you've been very good about it, but yeah, I'm proud of it. In the fact that we have this book, I had the opportunity to write it and I hope it talks about the justice system. I want to get to that in a moment in terms of the legacy of all of this. you are happy for Chris Darden's success. I am, I am happy for his success and you know, I wish him the best.
I said it in the book. I wish you the best, but I also wish you some wisdom. This is the idea of ​​attacking the jury who is crying and acting like a whining and crying person which is unprofessional and he had to stop it. One of the best things I did for Chris Darden. I took him aside like a person I cared about and told him: "Don't take Ferman, he was going to take him." him as a witness is the best advice he received during that Tri and why should Chris Darden trust you? He didn't take it when you're the lead defense attorney because I looked him in the eye and told him not to.
Don't you take this guy? This guy is a bad guy. What did he tell you? What did he tell you about Marshall Clark? Oh, he said he's fine, he said you know, things were said like leaving my wife alone and he got mad about it, you know? That was his wife. I said, what are you talking about your wife? What do you mean by that? I guess he was joking about that, but you know, you never know, you never know, you never know, you never know, a lot of people think that. This showed the ugly, ugly, ugly face of racism in the reaction.
In this trial, African Americans separated from Caucasian Americans on this and it says that race is still the American dilemma. I guess I think race is the American dilemma and I think the problem with this is that the proposed cure is a denial on the part of so many Americans. denial will not cure it we have to deny it a jury had a chance Den denial on the topic of race people don't want to talk about race in this country it's a difficult topic it's taboo don't ask no I'm not saying it that's why We don't solve it, you don't put it on the table, we have to bring it to the front and talk about the things that separate us, there are many more things, Charlie, that unite us than those that separate us.
I agree, that's what I think I feel. Would you talk to the president about this on the phone? President Clinton, no, I haven't and I would love to, because I think we need moral leadership at the highest level in this regard. Let me tell you WB de Bo said in 1903 this what you quoted on the last page things yes when I talk about the aspect of Tunisia that the problem of 20 is no, he said no, that is what he said, what he said is they made it easy for them make him a scapegoat or whatever no, he said, he said that the fact that I was there as a liar made it easier for them to condemn Simpson, not to condemn Simpson, right?
I'm sorry, I think I think with the apology we were able to accept, but he is in massive denial of who he is and what this jury did. The jury didn't like him from the beginning and he had nothing to do. No one was interested in him being a scapegoat. He should just come. there and told the truth, that's what we're talking about, what kind of message doesn't that send, a police officer takes the stand and lies in a first degree murder case and gets fined $200 and goes home to Idaho, what would have been appropriate from Johnny Cockman at some point in custody absolutely what anyone else would have received under other circumstances what kind of message does it send to police officers it's okay to lie and get a $200 fine well give me one good sentence that you think would be Well, the sentence carries up to three years.
I'll leave that to the judge, but I think he should have gone to prison. He should have gone to prison for perjury in a murder case like this. Absolutely, he said it himself. I am the key witness in the case. trial of the century. I'm gone, the gauntlet goes off, the case goes, goodbye and he should have gone goodbye for lying. What about you accuse police officers of lying too? Should they go to prison? Well, he was a police officer to no one other than what you accused. lying well if not, no, I think in that situation, in that other situation that we were talking about, Ido discovered that he had a reckless disregard for the truth, we were using him and I think that in a situation like that, I don't think he would have said.
Aren't you accusing me of lying when you say something happened to the vial and then they did something with it? I mean, he's the one who had trouble with it. If you say they did something to him, you're saying he did it. I already said about Vanett the fact that he couldn't explain why he had this blood and I thought that certainly opens us up to all kinds of possibilities, but I also said that the Fiato brothers accused him because he told them that he went there. because the husband is always the suspect now, the truth is that impeachment or not, you know between impeachment and saying that I have never used this word in 10 years, that is a difference Johnny El Cochran proud son of Johnny El Cochran father who tonight at the Plaza Hotel yes at there will be a book party with his son great author American defense attorney uh, the journey to justice is a book thank you very much for joining us, thank you Charlie, it's a pleasure, a pleasure, okay , a pleasure, thanks for joining us, see you tomorrow night.

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